Emotion Versus Logic

ray

New member
In our (western?) society we tend to see emotion and logic as opposing forces. Often times the dichotomy is present in terms of gender characteristics, ie women are emotional and irrational, while men are logical and rational. Personally, I find that to be a bunch of hogwash. I am a woman and an emotional person but I'm not a raving, irrational lunatic. And I've known some pretty irrational men...

I like to think that emotions and logic should work cooperatively and that those of us on opposite ends of the continuum can learn to respect and understand each other. Sometimes, though, when I am trying to relate to people who are unemotional and hyperlogical, I get frustrated, misperceive their statements and feel upset that they don't understand where I'm coming from. Or feel that they're looking down on me because I am not as "logical."

What experiences have you had relating to people who occupy a different spot on the continuum than you? Do you identify as being one or the other? Do you find yourself in the middle? Has anyone else found this to be a frustrating bridge to build? Do you tend to be attracted to people that are opposite to you in this?
 
I'm not sure they can work alongside each other that easily. often the logical choice is not the same as the emotional one.
I tend to approach life very logically, seeing things very distinctly as black and white.
some times its helpful: recognising someones worth/use even if i dislike them
sometimes not so much: chosing/dismissing someone for a perfectly sound logical reason when it's not polite/right to do so. i'm particularly bad at doing this with friends when the 'emotional' choice is to chose either a close friend or someone who really wants it but the most logical choice is someone else entirely.
it's problematic, it upsets people when you decide things based entirely on logic without any kind of emotion at all.
i remember my mom getting upset when i said that yes if stranded on a desert island with no food etc and she were dead i would eat her as a last resort. (xmas drinking leads to weird places...) the point is in this oddly specific hypothetical situation most peoples emotional response is to shy away from what you know to be logically sound reasoning.

of course everyday living doesn't tend to be life and death survival but the same is applicable.

it's frustrating to a logical person when others let their emotions guide them down what (to us) is clearly a stupid path.
and emotional people get upset and annoyed with us for having little to no regard for the emotions of others.

obviously thats more in the extremes, the majority of people though they tend to lean more to one side than the other have a healthy dose of both emotional and logical reasoning....
 
Hey Ray,

Good post that may get some activity :)
Because it's a lot bigger issue than most want to get into and try to deal with.
Your statement " dichotomy is present in terms of gender characteristics, ie women are emotional and irrational, while men are logical and rational. " summarizes the stereotype pretty well.

As much as we all are on guard against (unjustified) stereotypes, still we can't be quick to throw them away when they have solid scientific or statistical support. (that's logic - right ? :) )
There's some biology in there and although we can find exceptions to any rule - a pattern that holds up holds up. It is what it is as we say. So I'd say be careful about discarding solid pattern logic because of a discovered exception.

But like so many things, knowledge and balance seem to be the bright path forward. Logical types need to be aware that logic alone can strip us of our humanity. And vic versa for the emotional types. As long as we all know that we have both those elements in us and strive for a proper balance, it seems we're doing the best we can. And knowing this (hopefully) allows others to call us to the carpet when it's not so obvious to ourselves that we're tipping the scale too far in one direction. We need that 3rd eye sometimes.

You ask if it's frustrating trying to deal with someone tipped in an opposite direction ? Of course it is. But when in that situation I always try to determine whether that person has this basic understanding (of need for balance). Because if they don't even have that and believe the right path lies only in one direction, you have a real educational task on your hands. BIG project. One most of us don't really have time for. We may try to toss out the Cliff Notes version, hope for the best, and move on.

That's only my experience.....

GS
 
What experiences have you had relating to people who occupy a different spot on the continuum than you? Do you identify as being one or the other? Do you find yourself in the middle? Has anyone else found this to be a frustrating bridge to build? Do you tend to be attracted to people that are opposite to you in this?

Until Poly I would have said I was logical. Poly screws with that for me. I can't seem to find logic in my life at this point. Except for work haha...

I don't find logic gendered. I know women (one rather well) who are logical. I know exceptionally emotional men. Men tend to hide it better, but when it comes out, holy crap. I think the genders just HANDLE logic and emotion differently.

I ... don't find any patterns at all in my attraction. Not a single girl I have been with has very many similarities to other girls. Beyond intellect that is. Thats a requirement.
 
Haha, Ari, you crack me up.

Maca is seen as "logical" at work. But the truth is he's a very emotional decision maker.
I'm seen often as emotional "loving", "caring", "devoted", "bitchy", "hormonal"... and yet, I tend to be a logical decision maker.

:eek:

So weird!

I was reading something recently (can't recall where I apologize) that was talking about how boys (they were discussing children) brains tended to use the one side (I think left) more and the girls tended to be more equally split between the two (not more thinking, just more evenly split between right and left brain). They were discussing the potential impact this would have on learning..

I'm wondering if I it may have something to do with how we "mature"... if we don't push ourselves (children whoever) to use both sides and look at things from both the logical and emotional perspective... how are they going to progress into that? How will they strengthen those abilities?

Hmmmm....
 
I think its important to realize who you are dealing with while trying to communicate with people that are different than you... check the Myer's Briggs thread (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689). We are crazy different sometimes.

I feel fortunate that I am on the edge of emotional and logical. I fall one way or the other on issues usually, but can at least recognize which approach the person I am talking to is taking and relate it to my own way of being within that. Personally I make an attempt to really listen and observe those that are coming at something from a different way of being than me. I usually recognize there is a difference when I begin to get confused and frustrated. That is a red flag for me to take note of what they are saying and how they are acting. If I can put myself in their shoes on and issue (empathize) then I sometimes can see it from their way of being and meet them where they are at. If I know them well or think they care to understand me better I might tell them how I saw it after. It's important first, I have noticed, to clarify, actively listen (repeat back to them what they have said, so they know that I heard and understood) and then respond in that way of communciating.
 
RP, people are crazy different. I followed the Myers Briggs thread for awhile. And I am an INFP, so the hyperlogical, cold approach is particularly grating on me. And I'm sure I can seem rather incomprehensible myself. I learned the repeating back technique while I worked at an elementary school and have found it helpful. Sometimes, I've found with the super logical types, that it feels like I'm trying to meet them halfway and understand their perspective/methods but they're not doing the same because they don't see my way as legitimate. Maybe this is just me, but I've always felt immense pressure from the logical/nonemotional types in my life to be more like them but they seemed to make little effort or see little value in trying to be more like me.

LR, I like your point that we tend to get 'tracked' into one or the other. I think that children and adolescents would benefit a lot from learning how to utilize both and when it's appropriate to pull out each one. Because both are so valuable. Sometimes, you need to look at something and analyze it with logic but sometimes when you're doing something like comforting a friend who's hurting, you need to empathize with them using your emotional skills.

Ari, I'm curious to hear how you see the genders as handling logic and emotion. As GS pointed out, the stereotypes do have some truth to them and I do find that my issues with logical folks are mainly men. The women I've known who are more logical were still more empathetic and tended to work cooperatively with me to establish common ground and understanding.

GS, the whole logic stripping us of humanity. That's what freaks me out about the overlogic stuff. It makes me feel cold, like I'm trying to relate to a robot. And even Hurrican, what you said about telling your mom about a desert island. I can logically comprehend that it does make sense but I would have had an emotional reaction to that for sure. I suppose it's not that logic doesn't matter but sometimes some one can know something but still feel another thing. And you have to deal with it and acknowledge it rather than just saying oh, its just your emotions.
 
What is an emotional response to something? Is it effectively knowing when to lie? The island scenario by hurricane for instance. If you want to survive you know what you need to do. However, at least for me, I know what others want to hear most of the time and could tell them "no I wouldn't eat you, of course not!" if I chose to. I feel like being "emotional" is more about coddling people, to make them "feel" better. I think people that don't understand this too well are usually those suffering mental illnesses like anti-social-personality-disorder or aspergers.

And there's nothing wrong with making someone feel better in my mind. However ray, I think the problems you get with logical people is simply because they do see emotional responses as below logical ones, and you'll never change that. Especially on the internet, when text is so cold, and prefers logic over emotion.

If most communication was emotional in nature there would be utter chaos. Even the people you think are emotional ray are still 90% logical, it's just 10% emotion vs those with say 1%. If someone was say, even 20%-30% emotional in nature, no one would be able to handle them. They'd yoyo from relationship to relationship, be alone, or likely have been killed in some weird accident due to failure in logic (I see a red car, red makes me angry, I run towards it, bam).
 
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...............As GS pointed out, the stereotypes do have some truth to them and I do find that my issues with logical folks are mainly men. The women I've known who are more logical were still more empathetic and tended to work cooperatively with me to establish common ground and understanding.

GS, the whole logic stripping us of humanity. That's what freaks me out about the overlogic stuff. It makes me feel cold, like I'm trying to relate to a robot. And even Hurrican, what you said about telling your mom about a desert island. I can logically comprehend that it does make sense but I would have had an emotional reaction to that for sure. I suppose it's not that logic doesn't matter but sometimes some one can know something but still feel another thing. And you have to deal with it and acknowledge it rather than just saying oh, its just your emotions.

It appears that the need for balanced was recognized thousands of years ago and the sages of the time decided to try to use the gender predispositions to achieve that balance.
Didn't work...........
The balance has to be achieved independent of gender predisposition. And that can only happen through education, training and practice. And cooperatively.
Unfortunately, especially in western society, the old plan is still adopted. You most often see the result of this in arenas such as sports, politics, corporate (male dominated) business etc. I think LR was making some reference to that. Male children are taught/encouraged to follow the logical path at the expense of the emotional connection and the reverse for females. So by the time you are old enough to start having independent interactions with other people the mold is already partially formed. And of course reinforced from there.

This void simply isn't discussed enough to overcome the conditioning in a majority of people.

It's not really THAT difficult to approach situations saying something like......
"My 'heart' (whatever that is) tells me to proceed/react this way but my common sense, experience and logic tell me that will lead to bad results - or disaster !"
How can I merge the two to get the best result !

A simple conversation with ourself. But it takes practice - AND reprogramming.

GS
 
What is an emotional response to something? Is it effectively knowing when to lie? The island scenario by hurricane for instance. If you want to survive you know what you need to do. However, at least for me, I know what others want to hear most of the time and could tell them "no I wouldn't eat you, of course not!" if I chose to. I feel like being "emotional" is more about coddling people, to make them "feel" better. I think people that don't understand this too well are usually those suffering mental illnesses like anti-social-personality-disorder or aspergers.

hmm, i suppose it would depend how you view emotional/logical.
for me an emotional response is an impulsive one, something i do without thinking-kissing someone without considering the consequences.
a logical desicion is more detached, considering only the facts not the emotional side effects.

it's interesting you mention ASPD/aspergers. the spectrum for aspergers is vast, the majority of people exhibit symptons on some level. however a vareity of mental illnesses affect your ability to experience, perceive and react correctly to emotional situations. Psychopathy for instance.
but having a personality disorder doesnt mean you have a mental illness or that there is actually anything wrong with you, and reacting in a more logical way or a more emotional way doesnt neccesarily indicate an mental illness.

As someone said above, men and women use their brains differently, a lot of typical sterotypes are down to this. a womans apparently inabilty to parallel park for instance :p men are better as spatial awareness because of the way their brains work. the same can be said of emotion/logical reasoning. men have a tendancy to over think and rationalise things, women tend to be more impulsive and emotional.

you say emotional is more about coddling people, im not sure thats emotional, i think thats even more detached and cold than be truthful. after all you're fully aware of your truthful answer, how it will affect them and how to lie to avoid the inevitable upset/confrontation. surely that's far more logical than the initial 'obvious' response of 'surival'??
 
Parallel parking and emotional way of being do not relate to me. Spacial capacity and logic don't go together for me... the whole female/male stereotyping doesn't work for me either... maybe its the people I hang out with... I think its kind of a cop out to blame anything on gender... I think for me it's more about training as a child. More about empowering people so they believe they can do anything. It frees them up to so much potential. Blaming gender often keeps me from thinking I am capable, so I don't allow it. I am an awesome parallel parker and can be very logical... I owe this to being empowered to be so... its nothing to do with gender I don't think.

I find on an almost daily basis that people are so quick to judge me on my gender and therefore capability within it. Especially while driving. If I cut someone off in traffic, it is somehow seen as I am a stupid woman, if a man does that to me it is somehow justified because I am just a woman. Not one sorry hand wave or glance with apology, just a blow off. If someone does that when Mono or PN are driving they are all apologetic. If my men cut someone off there is not one peep about it. No head shake, no hand flying up and eye roll... what is that shit?! Ya, driving brings out all those stereotypes it seems! As if everyone doesn't cut people off in traffic sometime or make some driving faux pas. Sorry.... off topic, very passionate about the driving thing :rolleyes:

There is a really good video about raising boys that makes me think of emotion and logic ("Tony Porter-a call to men" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80). Raising emotionally strong men is probably the most important thing parents can do. Society trains them to be logic, but not emotional. Opposite for girls; emotional yet not logical.

@ray, I am I-ENFP too. I get where you are coming from, but in my field I have to be able to appreciate logical people as much as emotional. Its important for me to realize that in my personal life I need to find people that feed my soul and be a good host to those that don't. Resentment builds if I am not being fulfilled.
 
Ari, I'm curious to hear how you see the genders as handling logic and emotion. As GS pointed out, the stereotypes do have some truth to them and I do find that my issues with logical folks are mainly men. The women I've known who are more logical were still more empathetic and tended to work cooperatively with me to establish common ground and understanding.

I personally think its just misdirected stereotyping. Women are logical in the things they need to be logical about. With their front end being emotional (sorry I am a software guy so I think of this as front and back end)

Men show the logical side but have deep seated emotions. When push comes to shove... men can be just as emotional if not more. (fights, sports, acting out etc)

Both have logic, both utilize it in their own ways..

People who suck at logic... or any type of intellectual control... suck at it, period. Men or women.

So I still don't see logic as a gendered thing. Its a topical based solution to problems and based on how its shown to the public. Since most stereotypes are judging a book by its cover, then yes, men are more logical. I just happen to dig the book too. As an extremely logical male with a deeply reactionary emotional side... I know I don't fit the stereotype at all.
 
@ Preciselove - I would disagree that emotion vs logic is about coddling versus truth. But I do think that sometimes it is necessary to weigh how your words will effect some one. At a summer camp I attended, the director used this three question method to teach the kids how to filter stuff. And it may seem a bit cheesy, but I think it can be useful. She would ask Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary? For instance, if something is true but it's not necessary or kind, then why say it? If it's going to hurt some one and there's no real need to say it, then what's the point? That would be considering their emotions. Sometimes, something is not kind but it's true and necessary. When that happens, you should do your best to relay the information appropriately, still considering their emotions. And I think that the cultural value of logic as superior to emotions is a burdensome construct. Logic is not better. It's like saying that an orange is superior to an apple. They're different. You use them for different things and they can complement each other.

@ GS - I agree that it's not talked about enough. I'm glad it's getting some discussion here. I tend to do something similar where I let myself feel intensely, calm down and then discuss my emotions using a more logical perspective. Kind of like I'm analyzing some one else. I find the approach helps me to make more grounded decisions that can consider the options more fully.

@ RP - That was a great video. TED has such amazing stuff. Men are definitely pushed to stuff down their emotions when learning to integrate them would be so much healthier. I've definitely noticed some resentment cropping up for me in regards to people I'm close to (the 'logical' ones) because ultimately my emotional needs are overlooked. And when I try to communicate what they are and how to help, it's like I'm speaking Turkish. I find I get less passionate about it with acquaintances simply because the ideas being communicated are usually less complex.

@ Ari - I like the front end vs back end idea. Usually I see one or the other sitting in the driver's seat in a person. The other is still there but it's not as prominent per se. My emotions are definitely on the front end but I can still use my logical skills. Sometimes it takes more effort but I like to think those skills are improving.

My big thing right now is why do we see logical is superior. I suppose that it's because we align it with masculinity which is also viewed (talking macro-level, theoretical here) as superior. It is so acceptable for people to down play emotion and dismiss it. I'm tired of being told by society that I'm less than or less intelligent because I am an emotional person. That wanting to care about a cause or people is naive and a waste of time. If the world was all logic, there would be very few humanitarian groups. In the end, much humanitarian work can be "a drop in the ocean" but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter or shouldn't be done. But it takes individuals who care even if it is 'irrational' or 'naive.'
 
My big thing right now is why do we see logical is superior. I suppose that it's because we align it with masculinity which is also viewed (talking macro-level, theoretical here) as superior. It is so acceptable for people to down play emotion and dismiss it. I'm tired of being told by society that I'm less than or less intelligent because I am an emotional person. That wanting to care about a cause or people is naive and a waste of time. If the world was all logic, there would be very few humanitarian groups. In the end, much humanitarian work can be "a drop in the ocean" but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter or shouldn't be done. But it takes individuals who care even if it is 'irrational' or 'naive.'

Pure emotional response tends to come without thought or processing. It tends to be reactionary only.

It is probably safe to assume you rarely have an unadulterated emotional episode. Just like people who are logical are rarely like spock.

You example of emotional usage, is based on logical creations of groups. If their core is emotional irrationality... they are still doing something about it logical and in an organized manner.

again, not gendered... its balanced albeit in different ways.

When its unbalanced you end up with some seriously fucked up people. That guy in a bar who got into a fight, and kills someone out of rage. The person who can't control their emotional highs of lust/love/infatuation... what does pure logic (and being implied, the lack of emotion) get us. Serial killers? Recluses? Drug users looking for the high of living?

People are generally balanced. They just may not seem that way sometimes.

I guess the long and short of all my responses, besides my inclination to not base it on genders... there is no such thing as logic vs emotion. They work together to create peoples personalities. Regardless of how far on the pendulum they think they may sit.
 
I agree. I think it is a balance. I've encountered met a person who was wholly one or the other (other than Spock). Although, I do know some people who swing pretty far on the Vulcan side. I guess I want there to be more recognition of the value of the emotional side so that they can begin to integrate and create a balance. The perception is often that logic is superior. I don't see emotional as superior, I think they are equal and different and both very necessary to form healthy individuals. The hegemonic patriarchy within western society does tend to view emotion (as a theoretical characteristic) as being 'feminine.' The video that RP shared kind of addresses this idea. When boys cry or show their emotions (other than anger), they're told to man up and stop acting like a girl. As if being a girl is a bad thing. It's not the individual people, but the social constructs I'm referring to. I'm also interested in the subject on a more personal level, of course.
 
Actually the 'logical is superior' doesn`t really come from men vs. women.

It comes from 'flight or fight' animal tendencies.

You have left brain introverts/extroverts.

and right brain introverts/extroverts.

Those that can think, plan, ...don`t get eaten or killed.

Those that always choose 'flight' response, or emotional panic, might stay safe, but can`t out-think situations that require logic to get out of.

This goes further then tigers versus antelope too. Even within one species, you have left and right brain thinking patterns. Those that can slow and use logic, will survive. Regardless of male, female, bear, rabbit.

Logic is required for immediate safety, and emotional is required for the survival of a species through socialization.
So balance is needed.
 
Parallel parking and emotional way of being do not relate to me. Spacial capacity and logic don't go together for me... the whole female/male stereotyping doesn't work for me either... maybe its the people I hang out with... I think its kind of a cop out to blame anything on gender... I think for me it's more about training as a child. More about empowering people so they believe they can do anything. It frees them up to so much potential. Blaming gender often keeps me from thinking I am capable, so I don't allow it. I am an awesome parallel parker and can be very logical... I owe this to being empowered to be so... its nothing to do with gender I don't think.

I find on an almost daily basis that people are so quick to judge me on my gender and therefore capability within it. Especially while driving. If I cut someone off in traffic, it is somehow seen as I am a stupid woman, if a man does that to me it is somehow justified because I am just a woman. Not one sorry hand wave or glance with apology, just a blow off. If someone does that when Mono or PN are driving they are all apologetic. If my men cut someone off there is not one peep about it. No head shake, no hand flying up and eye roll... what is that shit?! Ya, driving brings out all those stereotypes it seems! As if everyone doesn't cut people off in traffic sometime or make some driving faux pas. Sorry.... off topic, very passionate about the driving thing :rolleyes:

you mis understand, i wasn't relating parralell parking to logical or emotional. i was using it as an example of differences between gender.

regardless of how you personally park/feel about gender sterotyping etc there are proven biological/chemical differences between men and women which affects how we react to situations and how well we perform in situations.

as irritating as you find people who sterotype gender, i find people who dont equally frustrating. this equality empowerment thing is all very well. but telling yourself/people that men and women are the same is just incorrect.
i'm not saying we're not equal but we're not the same.

some one said above about fight vs flight. applying this to gender sterotypes. males are tradionally the hunter gather while females are stay at home look after the cave XD
in very basic terms women need to react impulsivly (emotion) and run to save themselves/children. men need to think about the situation (logic) to trap the animal.

on a socialiaztion level as well the gender difference is apparent. women are far more social than men. back to the cave men..females would require the support of other females to look after offspring etc. males view other males as competion and so have less need to be emotional and socialize.

we all like to think we're far more civilized than that, and as a society we no longer need these 'primitive' drives but on a purely biological level we're are so far behind, our bodies and body chemistry still react as if we are primitive animals.
 
While I dislike people throwing out basic tendencies as well, they are just that,...tendencies. The perfect 'petri-dish-of-life' allows us to see those tendencies. Real world , is quite different though.

Actually, females of many herd-type animals are just as capable of logic. More so, depending on time of the year, and breeding season rituals.

We all watch far to much National Geographic, and dont understand the true ways animals work together.

I didn`t care to debate this,..but ah well,.. if you watch a mother of any species defend its young, or care for its family, or herd dynamics, ...or even associate ranking amongst other females,..they are extremely left-brain introverted.

Reverse is found often too : They will chase off predators, and confront them. While a male runs with the herd, to keep the majority safe. (fastest male, can lead the herd away, and keep it safe.)

Thats the difference. Introverted, versus extroverted. As Ariakas noted, front-end, versus back-end motivators.

Male, as left-brain extroverts, do not need incentive. This is the difference.

'The women are emotional, and men are logical' is such a very, very, basic generalization, it barely warrants mention.
 
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It is certain that humans are animals and that we have instincts, (drives?), etc., but once we get past this common ground assumption, things are less clear. Example: Not all human males/females exhibit the same presumably biologically embedded behavioral tendencies as a majority do. So it's not accurate to simply say, "Males... this", "females ... that." Also, socialization (enculturation, indoctrination...) remains about as powerful a force in human culture / society / behavior as any other -- at least / perhaps(?).

This stuff is complicated--or, at least, complex. Let us use care not to present it as if it were all sorted out and final.
 
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