Loving without Fear: Cleo's path

IP and wildflowers, thank you for your stories.
I've been thinking about what you both wrote.

I think the key for me is that I need to fel that I CHOOSE my behavior in this. Wether it is going to the hospital and sit with my parents, or tell them 'no I can't make it today but I'll be there the day after tomorrow'

If I choose, and make decisions for myself, I resent being with them less - and when I don't go, I feel less guilty.

It's very true that I do not and should not expect support from them. They've never given it and they are not going to give it now.

Ren says I need to talk about myself more often when I'm with them. Just claim a litte space where my story gets to be told. But without expecting them to respond, care, of commiserate or whatever - just tell my story, be a presence, insted of someone who would rather be somewhere else.

I have an amazing group of people around me who love and support me and who are there for me. Hell, there are even strangers on the internet sharing their stories with me, to help me. :)

It's so strange to me that the way I am livng my life (completely open, reaching out, daring to be vulnerable, making deep and meaningful connections) is the exact opposite of how they raised me and how I behave with them.

Maybe Ren is right and I will feel better if I bring more of myself into the relationship - without any expectations, mind you.

Lots to think about.
 
Yes, exactly!
To choose to be there, and to show your true self (or as much of one as you choose).
Sounds like you're on a good path :)
 
I think the key for me is that I need to fel that I CHOOSE my behavior in this. Wether it is going to the hospital and sit with my parents, or tell them 'no I can't make it today but I'll be there the day after tomorrow'

Being able to do that is important to me too. I usually will speak up and say what I can manage to do so that it's clear and nobody has unreasonable expectations of what I'm going to be able to manage.

And it helps with not feeling guilty. :D

I have an amazing group of people around me who love and support me and who are there for me.

This is fantastic. Best possible situation to be in as far as I'm concerned.

Nobody can and will be there for you for everything.

When my old love died, the situation for me was traumatic and his death has affected me more than losing dad did. Old Love was old but healthy and I didn't expect him to die then. Dad was old, had dementia, had been miserable for years and death was a release for him - it was sad and I miss him but dying was better than living for him.

Old Love died suddenly one night and his death was a result of the vet we saw basically not listening to me and assuming that because Old Love wasn't making a massive fuss that he wasn't as ill as I thought he was. The vet chose to treat the case as a non emergency and Old Love paid for that with his life.

Anyway that night I left my Old Love with the vet after a bit of an argument and I went to meet my SO and a friend who were out together nearby. I was worried and I wanted to talk to them about why I was worried and about the nightmare I'd had trying to get the vet to listen to me. They tried to reassure me by telling me that they were sure the vet knew what he was doing and then tried to change the subject to take my mind off it.

I left. I told them that my worries were valid and that I wanted to talk about it and that I was going home to do that with friends who understand. That's what I did. Other friends help me sit the vigil of worry, waiting to hear if Old Love would pull through.

Then in the middle of the night the vet rang to tell me that Old Love was suffering from the condition I had suspected all along and that things had progressed too far for him to recover.

My SO was wonderful. He came to my house straight away and rang his boss the next day to take the day off and spend it with me. He didn't leave me alone for days. Our friend too made time to see me and to apologise for her attempts to lighten the mood with me, told me she had had no idea that things could go so badly so quickly with dogs.

My friend and SO were both wonderful at helping me through the aftermath but in the moment, when I was going through the immediate trauma and distress and worry, neither of them had the knowledge or experience to be able to empathise with me and neither of them could offer the support I needed.

So I think that there is a very real need for a wide range of friends and loves in our lives so that none of us end up resenting our loved ones for not being able to provide things that they just can't provide. That you have lots of love and support is a wonderful thing and puts you in a very good position.

Maybe Ren is right and I will feel better if I bring more of myself into the relationship - without any expectations, mind you.

I think that is a great idea and well worth a try. Relationships so often become habitual. Where connections are missing, I think that those habits can sometimes work to support the lack of connection.

Maybe if you are in the habit of not talking much about yourself, it is having an impact on both you and your parents ability to connect with each other. Maybe if you shift that habit a little, it might make a bit of a difference.

IP
 
We didn't turn up and offer our support because it made us feel warm and fuzzy. Watching a loved one starve to death over a period of weeks isn't going to make many people feel warm and fuzzy - it's brutal - the stuff of nightmares. Nor did we do it out of obligation or to avoid guilt. We all did it because people we care about needed help and support and we are all lucky enough to be physically, mentally and emotionally solid enough to provide those things.

been thinking about this.
I DON'T feel physically mentally and emotionally solid enough right now.

I'm in a pretty bad place. Anxious, sad, restless and depressed. Feels like grieving C is finally happening. No more feeling relieved - just sad. Like I failed (I know I didn't).
Feel like crying whenever someone talks to me.

I want to be left alone and I want reassurance from my loved ones.
I want peace and I want new things to make me feel alive.
I feel scared and insecure and alone.

I'm spending a couple of days by myself. I hope this will help.
 
thank you fuchka that was beautiful to read.
It reminded me of one my favorite Pema Chodron quotes

You are the sky
Everything else, it's just the weather

It is a really good analogy.

My grandmother, who, had she lived in modern times would have been diagnosed with depression (in her days, it just meant that every now and then she stayed in bed for a month, everybody tiptoed around the house and outside help was brought in to look after the kids) had this habit of calling this number where you could hear the weather report. She was afraid of heat, thunder, and rain (because it could cause an accident that would kill someone in her family)
Her daughters found out when the phone bills kept getting higher and higher.

I can just see her, frantically dialing that number every hour or so, hoping the report had changed, not looking out the window to look at the actual weather, thinking that calling that number gave her some control over certain circumstances that she dreaded.

I truly believe that the way out of any upset, sadness and fear and depression and dark place, is to look at reality and see it for what it is and don't try to change it and if it's bad, just sit it out and don't think you can control it because you can't.

I know it to be true it's just that I haven't found the magic flip to switch so that I can actually start FEELING that way, too.
 
Things are still not very awesome around here.

Had 2 first dates last week... one with a guy I'm a 99 % match with on OKC. He is a GREAT guy.. I mean on paper he's perfect, and even in real life everything about him was good except for the fact that I felt zero attraction. I wrote about this on another thread and some stories about people ending up in a satisfying relationship with someone they did not feel attracted to on the first date, made me think ~I need to give him a second chance. Not sure though and I don't have a lot of energy right now. We're still emailing though so we'll see.

Other date was with very cure funny smart guy, we share a lot of views on life and love, and I was definitely attracted to him... and I think he's interested in me too. But I do get the sense he's more looking for a FWB type of thing than a real emotional connection. So I'm a little cautious. We were supposed to go on a second date tomorrow but I cancelled it because I'm too stressed out about my dad.. told him the truth about this and he was very gracious and said he hoped we would be able to get together soon. I hate breaking a date but it really did not feel right.. I know I'm vulnerable and looking for attention / comfort right now, and am scared this could lead to me making wrong / rash decisions.

Speaking of which.. I had the house to myself last night and a friend came over. I've known him for a long time, but we've only become close recently. There is a lot of chemistry between us, but we are working on a project together where he is sort of my mentor, and so I always thought we should NOT go the route of anything sexual. He is single, but last night told me he's met someone and they just started dating. I felt a little jealous ( I know... crazy) and at the same time relieved because he's mono and I thought now he's dating, it will take some of the tension between us away.
Well obviously not... we ended up kissing and cuddling and it was great, I mean it felt great in the moment, but afterwards I did feel sad. I know this is not going anywhere (would I want it too? don't really know) and I was scared it would have hurt our professional relationship. I also felt that I gave in to my feelings of loneliness, just wanting to feel another body to make some of the stress and hurt I'm experiencing go away. Not a very good reason perhaps to start a make out session :(

Anyway, today I'm alone, feeling a little lonely and blue. Not sure where my life is taking me at the moment - I sure don't feel very much in control right now.
 
MrBrown broke up with me. Or I guess not really broke up with me, but said that for now he just wants to be friends. He gave me reasons that are valid, and that I could have seen coming, and are too painful to elaborate on here.

I haven't heard from BGuy or Knight in weeks.

I love Ren and he loves me. I think I might take a break from the forums for a while and focus on getting my relationship with myself to a better level. I feel so completely lost right now, lost, hurt, alone, like a failure.

I know all these things are not true, but with everything that's been happening over the last few months, it's getting kind of hard not to feel this way.
 
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*holds you*

Your ability to recognise what you need, and take steps to get it, means you are NOT a failure.

Be gentle on yourself... x
 
Oh God, Cleo, I'm so sorry to hear that. :( Everything happening at once, must be really overwhelming. Please take care of yourself and believe that you're not a failure. You are a great, compassionate and loving person. *hugs*
 
I am sorry, Cleo. I wish I knew what to say to provide comfort. You are not a failure. Some relationships are like seasons and not meant to last forever. Just know that you are not wrong for wanting certain things and one day you will find those people who can give you those things. Sending hugs your way.
 
I'm sorry Cleo :( I really do think that there is a LOT of loss going on in people's lives this year - seeing it left and right in big ways. I know it's sure as hell not about you being a failure or bad partner, and I hope that with a bit of time you can only remember the any good/useful things you've learned from the relationships, instead of feeling the sad. *hug*
 
Well, holy shit. I am so sorry. That's awful.

I truly do know how you feel. In the summer of 2010, during the week of my 29th birthday, my boyfriend/best friend ended our 4-year (open) relationship in a way that was a total shock to me. He blamed me for his impotence, said I had never been his "real" girlfriend, that we'd never had emotional intimacy, and that I must have no friends if I thought of him as my best friend.

When I called my occasional/casual lover (also of 4 years) to commiserate, he informed me that he had found "real" love and was getting married (and, by implication, that he would never see me again, not even to say good bye).

When I went on a family vacation the next week to recover from this double loss, my brother was a complete asshole to me [for reasons totally unconnected with my dating relationships] and I stopped speaking to him for five months.

When I called my third (and only other) friend-and-lover and begged him to let me cry on his shoulder, he told me that he had been "merely tolerating" me in his life and that there must be something wrong with me if I was blindsided by the departure of the other two men.

Strangely, I had met and/or gotten together with all three guys in the same month four years earlier, so it was darkly poetic that I would lose them in all the same month too. At the time, I think I felt that I had been greedy or selfish to maintain involvement with three men; so surely I deserved to lose them all.

Meanwhile, the mutual friends I shared with my ex-boyfriend blatantly cut me out of their lives, which also meant cutting me out of the professional life I had been establishing for 5 years. My dearest platonic friend never spoke to me again. Another friend of my ex told me that I had been my ex's "practice girlfriend" and that I should have known it wasn't a "real" relationship.

In the space of a few weeks, I had lost the 5 people closest to me (my three lovers, my brother, and my best female friend) all in one blow, for no reasons that I could understand. So yes, I know how it feels.

I went completely crazy for 6 months. I sobbed for hours every day. I became physically ill. I could barely get out of bed, but I couldn't sleep either. I developed obsessive thought patterns. I tried medications with bizarre side effects, and a therapist who could not contain her shock that I had been involved with MORE THAN ONE man. She recommended a $2000 psychological evaluation.

What I really needed was to grieve. And to wallow in self-pity (it's okay to do that if you need to). And to forgive myself, because I damn sure thought it was all my fault and that I was a complete failure.

Honestly, it's the three-year-anniversary of this series of events, and only recently have I begun to feel truly better. I had to rebuild my sense of self piece by piece. But I've done it, with time and a lot of self care, and by sticking to my conviction that I truly want a life that involves dating relationships with more than one person.

The self-doubt about non-monogamy was the hardest to get over. Logically, I should have given it all up--the three "wonderful" men in my life all dumped me spectacularly. My relationships weren't "real." And yet, that was the one thing I knew I truly wanted, to be free to have relationships with multiple men.

Don't give up, Cleo. But do take the time to grieve without beating yourself up for it.
 
Thank you all, for your kind words. I guess I'm not taking a break from the forums after all. Writing about everything here does really help.

MeeraReed, wow.. I read before, somewhere on the forum, that you once lost several people at once. But this is a truly horrible story. I am so sorry you had to go through that.

This really jumped out at me:
Strangely, I had met and/or gotten together with all three guys in the same month four years earlier, so it was darkly poetic that I would lose them in all the same month too. At the time, I think I felt that I had been greedy or selfish to maintain involvement with three men; so surely I deserved to lose them all.

.

I got together with C and MrB in the same month (december 2011). This was after a period where I was sort of frantically dating, having lots of one night stands / casual sex encounters. Getting together with mono guys who after one or two dates (with sex) said they couldn't deal with the poly thing, after all. I was SO ready for a committed and serious relationship besides my marriage. And then I found two (though they were very different, what they had in common was that both guys claimed to be truly poly and to be in for the long run).
I jumped right in, with both of them.
It needs mentioning, probably, that before I got together with Ren, I'd never had a serious long term relationship. I had never really been in love. I had never had my heart broken. I had never been committed to someone, I had never experienced a relationship with all the lovely and not so lovely things that it brings - closeness, disappointment at times, friction, expectations, etc.

So at 42 I am starting out as a relationship novice, having only the experience of being with Ren for almost 20 years.

I have never learned that love can be love and yet change, that things don't stay the same forever. I think both with C and MrB I started clinging to ideals without looking at how the reality had changed.

In his last email MrB said that he is not saying goodbye, that he values our friendship and our love, and that we will see which form or shape this will take. I think what happened between us is that I started making 'primary style' claims on his time and energy, something I KNEW wouldn't work - but I needed it, especially after breaking up with C. I KNEW it would screw things up with MrB but I did it anyway, and that's the part where I feel like a failure - like I wasn't strong enough for him, not 'good' enough to be his partner.

But I think it could not have gone any other way - I could not NOT have asked for these things, and it was necessary that he told me that he is not able to give me this.

So there is not a definite goodbye between us, and I don't know where that will go. I only know is that I need to work on my expectations, and just let things be instead of wanting to control it all.

Poly sure is a challenge for control freaks :)

The self-doubt about non-monogamy was the hardest to get over. Logically, I should have given it all up--the three "wonderful" men in my life all dumped me spectacularly. My relationships weren't "real." And yet, that was the one thing I knew I truly wanted, to be free to have relationships with multiple men.

Yes, this too.
I'm having an article published in a major paper here in a couple of months. It's about my poly life, with Ren, C and MrB (who are of course not mentioned by name). I felt so STUPID the last couple of days, thinking 'when that article comes out everyone will know that what I am propagating, actually did not work out at all...'
but when I though harder about it, I know in my gut that this is how I want to live my life, and there will be other loves, and even if there won't be, it is still how I want to live my life and I still believe in it.

I am seeing my counsellor next week. Unfortunately I will only be able to talk about the situation with my parents - I can't talk about the relationship stuff, tried it before, he says he's not equipped to help me with that because he doesn't know anything about it. He's not judging (he's a great, great guy who has helped me work through a lot of stuff over the years), he just says 'sorry, can't help you with that'.

So I guess for those things it's back to introspection, and venting here, and hashing things out on this blog.

Thanks for reading and comments are always very welcome.
 
... and some thoughts about dating, which I want to write down here to remind myself later.

Next time I start to date someone I want to take things sloooooowww.
Become friends first. Not share my whole life story on the second date. Spend time together, get to know each other. Making suspense, attraction without immediately acting on it, a part of the whole process. Not think of guys as my seriously committed long term lover straight away.

I think this is what I did with BGuy.. it seems to be working so far. We became friends, and now we occasionally see each other and have great talks and great sex. I'm not kidding myself, I would love a more involved relationship, at some point (not with him). But I really need to keep my dreams and expectations in check next time I meet someone.
 
Good days and bad days. Sometimes I'm doing ok, and think that it is all for the best. And then I get these huge waves of grief because something pops into my head - I'm reminded of something C said, something MrB did - and it's overwhelming.

The relationships were so very different but now it almost seems like the grief over them has melted together into one big pool of mourning. Maybe that's a good thing?

Trying to take good care of myself. Eat healthy. Not drink too much coffee or alcohol - they tend to increase my anxieties. Talk to friends, but not too much, cause I find that all the talking and hashing out doesn't really help much. Spend lots of quality time with Ren. I took some time off from work, and hope that will also help to ground myself again.

Got an email from C yesterday. 'It's been a month, I wonder where you stand, and if there is still something between us? What do you want to do?'
Ugh. So typical. Not a word about how he feels. Putting all the responsibility on me. I replied that nothing has changed for me since we last spoke, and that I do want to talk to him, but not now because feelings are still too raw, and that I need another month at least.

BGuy got in touch, but hasn't responded to my proposal for a date yet.

Came across this Dorothy Parker poem the other day. It pretty much sums up how I feel about any potential new relationship.


ULTIMATUM

I'm wearied of wearying love, my friend,
Of worry and strain and doubt;
Before we begin, let us view the end,
And maybe we'll do without.
There's never the pang that was worth the tear,
And toss in the night I won't -
So either you do or you don't, my dear,
Either you do or you don't!

The table is ready, so lay your cards
And if they should augur pain,
I'll tender you ever my kind regards
And run for the fastest train.
I haven't the will to be spent and sad;
My heart's to be gay and true -
Then either you don't or you do, my lad,
Either you don't or you do.
 
It's rather freaky at times how much our stories are parallel these days! I've read quite a few posts from you that seem to describe my recent experiences and feelings. And now reading your history above, I start to see why.

quote:
It needs mentioning, probably, that before I got together with Ren, I'd never had a serious long term relationship. I had never really been in love. I had never had my heart broken. I had never been committed to someone, I had never experienced a relationship with all the lovely and not so lovely things that it brings - closeness, disappointment at times, friction, expectations, etc.

So at 42 I am starting out as a relationship novice, having only the experience of being with Ren for almost 20 years.
/quote

Increase the age by a few years, and that's me, aside from 2 long affairs. In one of them I was just too young/immature to properly work out relationship issues, though we did try; in the other we never talked about issues/expectations, and this ambiguity became very stressful for me. And my husband is not much of a communicator, so we failed for years to address problems.

So just truly learning emotional/relationship skills in my 40s, and in a relationship I jumped into way too fast, with tons of (unrealistic) expectations. It's been quite the crash course and emotional roller coaster. And I had a break up a few weeks back that turned into a non-break up, although I still don't really understand the what form the relationship will take now.

(This last reminds me of both of your relationships - it looks to me like neither C nor MrB wants to lose you. Even with the complications and mistakes (which we all make) they are still interested in you.)

So I'm also vowing to do it all very differently next time around, and feeling better equipped to do so. And looking back, I see that the affairs did grow more naturally, from relationships that were friendships first, and that provided some comfort at the time.

FWIW, from a fellow novice, it seems to me like you're handing this crisis period pretty well, and doing a good job at taking care of yourself and navigating through the grief.

I wondered why, though, in responding to C, you didn't tell him this reaction:

quote: Ugh. So typical. Not a word about how he feels. Putting all the responsibility on me. /quote

Does he already know this, or is it implied in the answer you gave him? Because to me it seems like your emotional reaction and the answer you gave him don't fully match, and I wonder if communicating your true reaction more clearly might be beneficial.

Hang in there, and glad that you've decided to continue to hang around here!
 
So just truly learning emotional/relationship skills in my 40s, and in a relationship I jumped into way too fast, with tons of (unrealistic) expectations. It's been quite the crash course and emotional roller coaster.
Yes, this, very much this. Expectations need to be kept in check next time...

I wondered why, though, in responding to C, you didn't tell him this reaction:

quote: Ugh. So typical. Not a word about how he feels. Putting all the responsibility on me. /quote

Does he already know this, or is it implied in the answer you gave him? Because to me it seems like your emotional reaction and the answer you gave him don't fully match, and I wonder if communicating your true reaction more clearly might be beneficial.

Well, I did say something like:'you don't say what YOU want, am I the only one who gets to decide what's going to happen now?'
I did think about making it more emotional but that is exactly what I don't want from this email exchange and why I don't want to see him yet... too much emotion. I still get very angry at him sometimes and that needs to fizzle out, because it's not going to bring us anywhere to fight.

and yes I'm still around, because it's just too hard to get away from the stories of people who are going through the same stuff!
 
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