Mono-Poly relationship, need advice

ThunderZag

New member
I apologize in advance if I ramble a bit.

I have been with my Fiance (I'll call him Abe for now) for 6 and half years. We came into the relationship knowing that I am not poly and he is. We have always agreed that when the opportunity arose for a poly relationship we would go slowly to make sure that I would be comfortable and assured that I wasn't just being replaced. He has had 5 different women that he has attempted to bring into the relationship. The first 4 failed miserably for various reasons. The 5th woman (I"ll call her K for now)is the current "attempt".

Abe and I moved to the South Bay Area back in April of this year for is new job. We started subletting half of a house from a co-workers friend. The person we are subletting from is K. About 2 months ago I had agreed that Abe and K could have a physical relationship but that I wasn't ready for them to start dating yet. To try to keep it short I'll just say that that ended badly within a couple of days. We all agreed that before it was attempted again that I would be informed and that they would do nothing without making sure I knew about it and was ok with it again. Took a couple weeks to settle back into being friends/roommates. I had been told by both of them that they didn't have any feelings for each other, other than as friends. Neither of them acted any other way than as friends.

Two weeks ago my mother passed away. It was rather unexpected and sudden. While I wasn't close with my mother most of the time, I did still love her as my mother and am still devastated with her loss as now I know I can never fix the relationship I had with her. K paid for the entire trip for me to be able to attend my mother's service. Three days ago, I am informed that Abe and K have serious feelings for each other and cannot control them any longer. I am also informed that they have already started exploring a physical relationship. While no intercourse has occurred there has been make-outs and heavy petting and gratification with hands. Needless to say I feel rather betrayed by both of them. However I am more able to forgive Abe as he has always told me that he couldn't promise he would never "cheat", but that he would try to follow the rules we had agreed to as much as possible. He says he got caught up in the heat of the moment with K and knows he messed up very badly. I, however, seem unable to forgive K. Part of that is that Abe did tell me what happened, a few day after, but he did tell me. K has yet to say a word about it.

Anyhow, after a long talk, I have agreed to just jump in and let them explore their feelings for each other, with understanding from both of them that, while unfair, I need more attention from them than they will be able to give each other as I'm still grieving over my mother. Yes, the timing couldn't be worse...

Abe has laid down a handful of baseline rules that I agree with, and I'm willing to try. My problem right now, is that I don't feel very rational or logical. I have never been able to lie to people, I tend to be honest to a fault without meaning to be. Abe has asked that I not confront K, or treat her any differently than I did before all of this came up again, because he doesn't want her hurt. K tends to react VERY badly when she is hurt. So now I feel like I'm lying to her because I'm acting like I'm ok with everything and that she hasn't caused me any pain. Any time I tell Abe that there are some things I'm not ok with him doing with her, he tells me I am being unfair to her.

So I guess long story short.... I'm willing to try to take this on, but at what point do I get to be "selfish" and be more worried about me and how I feel about something than be worried about if it will hurt K or ruin the chances of them being happy together? Being as we have never really gotten this far with any of the other 4 women, I'm at a loss as to what is normal to feel and what is ok to say or do and to whom and when. I just don't know... I'm hoping some one here has had some experience at least a little similar and can help me with advice on how they got through it.
 
Dating the landlord is a sticky wicket.

About 2 months ago I had agreed that Abe and K could have a physical relationship but that I wasn't ready for them to start dating yet.

What does that mean? They can share sex but not have emotions?

I don't think you guys understand your polymath tiers there. You can be honest RIGHT NOW.

Feelings are just feelings -- they blow on through. Although your thing is a "V" it reminds me of this thread. I'd reply the same to you -- you guys could talk in trio about how you want to to be together.

There's nothing wrong with being honest. You can be honest and present your information in a non-violent communication kind of way. I do not see what he fears. What does he fear?

You are not going to learn emotional management as a "V" trio by avoiding dealing with yucky emotion when it should happen to pop up.

Galagirl
 
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I wasn't ready for it to become more serious than just sex. I knew that they liked each other, though I believed it was as just close friends, not falling in love. I wasn't ready to have him move into her bedroom, and go on dates alone, and all that tends to come with NRE.
I also have serious reservations with her and Abe dating as she is also dating two other men and refuses to tell either of them about each other or Abe. I personally feel that if she won't tell the other two men she is seeing for the last year about each other, and now won't tell them about Abe, how am I supposed to trust her not to cheat on 'us'? And I say cheat because both of the other men believe they are in a closed mono relationship with her. Before she and Abe decided to start a dating relationship, and we were all just friends, I didn't let it bother me because it didn't affect me more than to make sure not to mention one to the other or vice versa.

I also admit that I have trust issues with other women Abe dates because all 4 previous women had made it clear that once Abe started dating them that he was to dump me. And since K still won't tell me anything about what she has done with Abe or how she feels about Abe, I'm not so sure that she cares about me enough to not do the same.
 
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he has always told me that he couldn't promise he would never "cheat", but that he would try to follow the rules we had agreed to as much as possible.
By saying this to you, Abe clearly told you he doesn't have the boundaries or maturity to honor agreements. The situation you are in now is a very reasonable and predictable result of his poor boundaries.

So I guess long story short.... I'm willing to try to take this on, but at what point do I get to be "selfish" and be more worried about me and how I feel about something than be worried about if it will hurt K or ruin the chances of them being happy together? .
Any time you're ready. Are you ready yet?


Unless he puts a lot of work into changing himself, the man he is now is the man he will continue to be. You may want to consider taking a step back from all of this drama, and take another look at who you are and how you want to live. The very first line I quoted above says a lot. He is telling you he may or may not have what it takes to follow through with agreements. To me, this means any further agreements he makes with you have very little value. If you want to stay with him, this is the most important thing to resolve. He will have to do the work. The dramas will continue until he does the work or you leave the relationship.
 
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I also have serious reservations with her and Abe dating as she is also dating two other men and refuses to tell either of them about each other or Abe.

Ack.

So he does not want you to be honest with her.

She is not honest with her other partners.

Why are YOU dating Abe?

You seem to want honest in your relationships -- he's not delivering. Neither is she.

I have to agree with snowmelt -- maybe you need to step away?

Galagirl
 
There are several reasons that I am not ready to walk away from Abe. The biggest for me is that, this is the first time that he has actually broken a promise to me in the 6 and half years we've been together. It's the first time that I have ever felt I couldn't trust him completely. He has never 'cheated' in any sense till last week, and has never lied to me about anything. We have a lot of history, and have been through a lot together, and several times it was just us against the world, and that's hard to just walk away from. Last week they both broke the promise they had made and he is still the only one who has talked to me about it. And I can't help but give him a lot more credit than I can her because though they did it, and he was late in telling me, he did tell me. She still hasn't said a word about any of this to me. She only talks to Abe about her feelings for him, and tells him repeatedly that she just wants to be part of our relationship, with both of us. She tells him she doesn't want to hurt me and she doesn't want me to leave, and that she doesn't want to be hurt either. Abe is desperate to 'keep the peace' with no more tears shed (I've been crying a lot lately) and that why he wants me to 'lie' to her and just pretend everything is fine, and not confront her for her part in this, he doesn't want her hurt either.
I admit that right now, I couldn't care less about whether or not I hurt her, but I don't want to hurt him. And I know that logically that is probably because of the 'other woman' aspect to it all, and that's why I haven't yet said anything to her. But am I wrong for not really feeling like she is my friend?
 
I understand you still want this relationship. I still see some things that don't fit. I'm going to try to show you those things by quoting some of your own words back to you:
She only talks to Abe about her feelings for him

She still hasn't said a word about any of this to me.

and tells him repeatedly that she just wants to be part of our relationship, with both of us.
If she wants to be a part of "our relationship with both of us", why is she not talking to you?


and that she doesn't want to be hurt either.
She doesn't want to be hurt, but she is willing to tell two other men, that she is dating at the same time as she is in this relationship with you and Abe, that she is exclusive with each of them. In other words, she doesn't want to be hurt, but she is willing to lie.

But am I wrong for not really feeling like she is my friend?
It is always a healthy thing to respect your own feelings. In my opinion she is not your friend.

Take a look at the first 3 lines I quoted above. Take a very close look at them. If all 3 of those lines are true, they cannot come from the same person. Since they do come from the same person, they are not all true. This means she is not being totally honest with either of you. She is manipulating both of you. It's hard for Abe to see it because he has poor boundaries.

Do you see it?
 
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I see it, Abe doesn't. He has always had problems seeing faults in people, especially those he has feelings for. She has told Abe she is going to sit down and talk to me about all of it tonight. If she actually does, and admits she did wrong, then I'm willing to try to forgive and move on. However if she doesn't, or if I ever find that she is hiding things from me, or lying to me again, I'm done.
I don't need 'friends' like that.
 
Ugh. I'm on the fence as to whether I ought to reply or not due to continued high emotions over the mess in my own life. So-take it with a grain of salt.

There is a limit to how far it is reasonable to limit your partner due to your own unmanaged insecurity. Insecurity is the responsibility FIRST of our self. Our partner can act as 'support staff' in our efforts to manage our issues, but they shouldn't be expected to quit being themself for extended periods of time due to our ongoing unresolved issues.

That said:
secretly dating more than one is cheating. Period.

Not communicating honestly and openly with partners AND metamours is a recipe for disaster. It is lying and dishonesty WILL destroy trust, increase insecurity and increase conflict.
In point of fact; it doesn't matter WHO is being dishonest with whom. Anyone who notices will lose trust. As you are experiencing in your awareness that she is lying to two other men AND you are lying to her which is increasing your dis-ease, distrust and general lack of comfort and security in the relationship.

I won't regale you with the long version. But, I have recently posted A LOT regarding metamours avoiding dealing with me AND lying in our dynamic. The damage of such actions is severe and I highly advise that you find a way to calmly and reasonably state to bith of them that dishonesty isn't going to ever result in healthy relationships, cheating has no place in poly and that while you are willing to work on yourself and support him in creating additional healthy, honest, up front relationships-anything including cheating and lying isn't in the cards.
Then-get real with yourself and define boundaries that allow him to create loving relationships IN SPITE of your ongoing fears. Feel free to look at our boundaries if you like-and check out Galagirls too. Outs very much address my husbands ongoing insecurities, while allowing me the freeedom to maintain my relationship with my live in boyfriend.
Be sure to include time limits for when you will re-address any boundaries that are strictly for allowing you a chance to work through grief or insecurity. Its not fair to just leave it open to 'whenever I feel comfortable' because you will never become comfortable until you face down the. Ir umstances and situations you fear and experience them working out.
 
Ok, so he's on his second chance then. Does he know this? And that it isn't like he gets infinite second chances?

What about you feeling "ugh" about her not coming clean. This is your expectation. Have you stated it to her directly -- "Why have you not come clean with me? "

That's work on your

you <--> Kathy tier of the polymath. (Do you go to her with things well? Does she come to you?)

and the

you to (Abe + Kathy) tier of the relationship. (Do you go to them as a couple with your things well? Does that couple come to you?)

Every polyship has many mini relationships inside it. Neither of those tiers is giving you what you want -- honesty. So have you articulated it and these tiers are not delivering? Or do you expect them to "just know" and "should be telling you?" Nobody can mind reader.

How does the trio agree to be together? What rights and responsibilities will you each hold up?

Again... most of the polymath stuff I wrote out for this thread -- it applies here. Just different names. Also the dealing with problems that pop up. Gotta break down the elephant.

GalaGirl
 
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I know this is a painfull situation for you. I'm glad you can see what's really going on, and you're willing to he honest with yourself about it. That tells me you have the wisdom to figure out how you want to live, and the strength to build that life for yourself - regardless of how the talk with Abe and K goes, and regardless of whether they are in your life or not.

I understand things are painfull right now, but I'm very proud of you. Always remember to love yourself. You have the strength to be happy if you choose to draw on that strength.
 
I'm willing to try to take this on, but at what point do I get to be more worried about me and how I feel about something than be worried about if it will hurt K or ruin the chances of them being happy together?

Right now. Yesterday, if possible. Not tomorrow. Now.

Tell Abe that you are not responsible for K's emotions. K is responsible for K's emotions. You are only responsible for ThunderZag's emotions. Stop calling that "selfish." It's called "responsible." Anyone who says otherwise is trying to manipulate you with a guilt trip.

If she's grown-up enough to own a house and have three boyfriends, then she should be grown-up enough to be responsible for dealing with her feelings. Then again, she's not grown-up enough to be honest with the people in her life, so my hopes of her learning accountability are sadly low.

However I am more able to forgive Abe as he has always told me that he couldn't promise he would never "cheat", but that he would try to follow the rules we had agreed to as much as possible.

By saying this to you, Abe clearly told you he doesn't have the boundaries or maturity to honor agreements. The situation you are in now is a very reasonable and predictable result of his poor boundaries.

In all fairness, he promised to try, not to do. My interpretation of "I can't promise I will never cheat" would be "I'm pretty much telling you right now, if you try to make me monogamous, I'm going to cheat." I hate cheating as much as the next guy, but upon hearing that assertion, the receiver has a certain level of accountability for sticking around under that condition.

In point of fact; it doesn't matter WHO is being dishonest with whom. Anyone who notices will lose trust.

So true. My step-daughter's mother is a pathological liar. She's taught the kid how to get her way by lying. While I've caught her in lies a few times, she's pretty smooth. But more than once, I've heard her lie on the phone to one of her friends. So now whenever she tells me anything, I smile and nod... but inside, I'm thinking "yeah right."
 
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p.s. If you're not already, start using condoms with Abe. I don't trust her to be honest about her safe sex practices, and I don't fully trust Abe to pick up the slack.
 
I didn't have time to read all the responses but I wanted to comment on this

Abe has laid down a handful of baseline rules that I agree with, and I'm willing to try. My problem right now, is that I don't feel very rational or logical. I have never been able to lie to people, I tend to be honest to a fault without meaning to be. Abe has asked that I not confront K, or treat her any differently than I did before all of this came up again, because he doesn't want her hurt. K tends to react VERY badly when she is hurt. So now I feel like I'm lying to her because I'm acting like I'm ok with everything and that she hasn't caused me any pain.

This isn't right. With this kind rule in place, the poly relationship will most definitely not work!

For it to work you need to be able to communicate with K. You need to be able to tell her how you feel. For you to be able to forgive her for her part in the boundary breaking, you need to get her side of the story (did she know, why did she do it) and an apology, if warranted.

Doesn't it strike you as somehow wrong that Abe cheated on you with K and then he is worried that she might get her feelings hurt if you talked with her? Doesn't it seem problematic that he is protecting her feelings but not yours?

It sounds to me he is not really worried about how either of you feel. What concerns him is that there might be some consequences to him about the way he acted if you girls talked with each other...
 
I confronted K last night. I told her that what they had done behind my back was not just a betrayal to me, that it was a betrayal of our friendship. I told her that I still love her as my friend but I don't trust her as far as I can throw her right now. I told her that I am willing to forgive but she has to work on getting my trust back, and that there isn't any specific thing she can do to fix it. I told her that if she truly wants a to be in a poly relationship with Abe and I that she has to talk to me as much as she talks to Abe about how she feels. That if it is a relationship with both of us she wants then it has to be both of us, not just one, that she communicates to. I told her there are no 3rd chances, this is her second and last chance. I told her that if she truly wants a poly relationship with us, that she is also going to have to tell the other two men she's dating that she is dating us. Told her that once that once that bridge is crossed that her lying to them does affect us, and that if she continued to lie to them, that I could never trust her to not lie to us. I told her that Abe had asked that I not bring any of this up and not confront her for her role in this because he didn't want her feelings hurt, and said that that was unacceptable. That I refused to be the only one who's feelings were allowed to get hurt, and that I didn't do anything wrong in this, so I refuse to feel bad about hurting her feelings. I told her that I expected more out of her than I honestly did Abe. Abe has always been clear that he's not mono and that he never could be, and while yes he broke our rules in not talking to me about it first, I knew it would happen someday. But that I expected her to have the control to say "No, we have to talk to Thunderzag about this first" and she didn't. I told her that right now, no, I really don't trust them alone together. I told her I am a forgiving person and that I suspect it won't take long before I start trusting her again but that I really can't give her an exact timeline. I told her that condom rule we have will remain in place until she has stopping seeing one of the guys she's dating and has been tested and that other forms of birth control have been put into place. Abe and I have been trying for a baby for 4 years now, and have had one miscarriage 3 years ago, so no I'm not ready for her to get pregnant by him, especially while I'm still hurt and angry.

She told me she completely understood. She apologized for betraying me, admitted that she has gone most of her life just doing and not thinking and that she had been lucky that it had never had adverse consequences. She said that she does truly value our friendship and that would rather us all just stay friends and cut any sexual or committed relationship ties with Abe than risk her friendship with me.

I still don't trust her, so I'll see how it goes. At least she did admit and apologize. Finally.
 
Hi SchrodingersCat,

I just noticed that you were talking to me in part of your reply, with these words:

In all fairness, he promised to try, not to do. My interpretation of "I can't promise I will never cheat" would be "I'm pretty much telling you right now, if you try to make me monogamous, I'm going to cheat." I hate cheating as much as the next guy, but upon hearing that assertion, the receiver has a certain level of accountability for sticking around under that condition.
I agree. This was the point I was making to ThunderZag.


ThunderZag,

I'm very proud of you. Keep in mind no one (not even Abe and K) really know what Abe and K are going to do. The most important part of what you did, in my opinion, is give yourself the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your mind with good boundaries. That confidence and character building experience will stay with you, regardless of what Abe and K do.
 
I am glad you spoke up on the

you <----> K tier of this polyship.

Now... when does the talk in TRIO happen? The tier of

you + Abe + K ?

Working together as a team, as the larger polyship group? That could happen next so everyone is on the same page as to expectations, code of conduct, rights, responsibilities, etc. The "how are we going to be together so we are in right relationship?" stuff. You have to come to agreements so the polyship can fly well.

But again -- good for you for speaking up. I totally agree with snowmelt:

snowmelt said:
The most important part of what you did, in my opinion, is give yourself the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your mind with good boundaries. That confidence and character building experience will stay with you, regardless of what Abe and K do.

We teach others how we want to be treated. Hopefully they learn it, and then treat us the way we want to be treated consistently.

Galagirl
 
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I told her that I expected more out of her than I honestly did Abe. Abe has always been clear that he's not mono and that he never could be, and while yes he broke our rules in not talking to me about it first, I knew it would happen someday. But that I expected her to have the control to say "No, we have to talk to Thunderzag about this first" and she didn't.

ThunderZ,

First good on you on talking with her directly. I hope she can rebuild a trusting relationship with you, even if only friendship.

I highlighted the quote above because it concerns me. Here's why. I feel you are putting too much of the blame on her. Yes, she should have done better and handled things very differently. No doubt about that.

Abe has clearly indicated he's not mono, yes. He told you he would cheat on you sooner or later. So you were duly warned about that aspect of his personality. But from reading this thread he does not act like someone who is poly - someone who values openness and honesty and doing the hard work of relationships before jumping into bed with someone. He doesn't act like someone trustworthy - the fact that he gave you a clear warning that he is not trustworthy does not make him trustworthy. Perhaps he can make the transition from cheater to poly. People do with much hard work. But don't make her responsible for his actions which is what you are doing with the quoted statement. As much as you are not responsible for her feelings (referencing some other posts), she is not responsible for him deciding to cheat. She is responsible only for her part in the debacle. He is responsible for his. Yes, she betrayed you. But so did he and it is not her job to get him not to betray you too. All she can do is decide not to betray you herself.

I wish you the best and I hope they can tap into their better selves and become trustworthy people.
 
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K has finally told me that what she wanted was for things to stay the exact same except that she got to have sex with Abe every morning. She does not want to have a relationship because she doesn't want to tell the other two men she's dating about each other or about Abe. Which is the opposite of what she told Abe. I told Abe what she had told me, and he has decided that he doesn't want to work on any relationship with her any longer. He doesn't want to just have a sexual relationship, and now he doesn't want any relationship with her because she is still lying to at least one of us.

Right now I'm still leery and not really trusting them to be alone together. I'm hoping that I can get some trust back in both of them and I can have my friend and partner back. Right now I'm just taking it one day at a time.
 
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