The other kind of jealousy…

Hello everyone!
This is my first post and I am new to really all of this so please bear with me!

The setup:
A few month ago I met my partner A. A is polyamorous and has been in a long term 5 year relationship with B, who is living about two hours from where we live. They have decided to open up their relationship about a year ago and since then B has found a partner called C, who is living in the same town she is. We are all equals and there is supposed to be no primary/secondary/...

The story:
A and I got along immediately and while I was thinking it would stay casual, he fell really hard and fast and (while it took me a little longer to acknowledge my feelings) we ended up beginning a serious relationship quite quickly. I knew from the start that A was polyamorous, I embraced the experience and for a while it was amazingly empowering: I had a partner who chose to be with me, not because of sex or because he felt like he needed me, but simply just because he wanted me; I felt empowered by discovering that I harbored no jealousy and didn’t consider B a threat to my relationship and it was rewarding to see A trust me enough not let me go out to party or do whatever I wanted with other people without feeling jealous – I have danced with and kissed a few strangers at a club and it was fun, but so far I’m not experiencing any desire to date or find another partner.

The issue:
The problems started when As partner B started to push to meet me. I – at this point – spent very little time thinking about her and felt no need or curiosity to meet her. As it was visibly important to A to respect his partners wishes, I agreed to meet B the next time she came to visit him. We met at a café and I was surprised to find her to be a pleasant and friendly person – she seemed less insecure and more down to earth than A had described her, which helped me a lot: I am a very outgoing and confident person and have a hard time connecting with overly shy and unconfident people.
After a good hour of chat I left to get back to university and she left, as I thought to go back to As place, where she always stays when she visits. About an hour later I got a worried text from A informing me that B had not returned yet but instead ran off without telling anyone where to – after that first fit, everything went downhill. While it must have been mainly miscommunication in expectation (she must have somehow expected us to have this sister-like bond right away, while I was very content with the polite small talk happening) everything that happened after has tainted the good first impression I had, made her niceness seem fake and slowly is making me dislike her. In my mind, she is slowly turning into this insecure, needy, socially awkward and dependent teenager, which I logically know she probably is not, but I can’t help picturing her to be.

And while I’m still not jealous in the traditions I-am-afraid-he-will-like-her-better-way, I am struggling with negative emotions toward her. I can’t see what he sees in her, I find myself increasingly annoyed when he shares even little information about her or angry at him for leaving on the weekends to see her. I’ll now say the cruel and mean thing you are not supposed to say; my kind of jealousy is more of a I-am-so-much-better-why-would-he-waste-his-time-with-her-when-he-could-be-with-me?

I have found no information on how to handel this kind of jealousy in any self-help forum so far.

The main cure everyone prescribes to jealousy seems to be to focus on your self-esteem and self-worth and remind yourself that the other person is making your partner happy. That doesn’t work for me: I am confident, I am intelligent and beautiful and happy and have a fulfilled, successful private and professional life which I love! Meanwhile B seems to only bring struggles and childish drama to the table…
This is threatening both my relationship and self-perception. I was very positive and confident that polyamory could work for me not just as an “experiment” but as a long term relationship setup. But now I can’t see any long-term future for me and A that involves me and B sharing more than an occasional coffee – and I don’t want a relationship that just consists of me and my partner sharing a few hurried moments; I do want commitment, a perspective of a life together, maybe of a family. I am at the point where I have even considered ending the relationship in order not to waste either As or my time and energy on trying to solve this, if in the end I can’t come to terms with her.
I have tried talking to A about this, but I don’t want him to feel like I’m asking him to leave her or choose (It has hurt me a lot because of course his 5-year-realtionship with her is characterized by another depth and he has ‘slipped up’ and pointed this out in a way that might imply a certain priority on her side). I have tried to force myself to like her, to create a positive image, remind myself that I actually did like her in the start and be empathic to her struggles… I’m just failing at it and I don’t know what to do anymore? I even thought about trying to meet her again, but I can feel every cell of my body cringing and withdrawing at the idea and I fear the outcome might be even worse if I meet her with this bias. I just don’t know how to shake it.

Has anyone been in a similar position or has some general advice?
 
I'm sorry you struggle.

The problems started when As partner B started to push to meet me.

I might be wrong... but I do not see that is the problem.

A. requested you meet her, and you agreed, and you met that obligation. You met her. It went ok enough from your end. So there.
You are done.

Could have just as easily said "A, thanks, but no thanks. Not interested in meeting B at this time" and let him deal with it.

About an hour later I got a worried text from A informing me that B had not returned yet...

So? Why is this a problem for you? And on her end... so? She has to tell him her every move? She can't just go shopping or whatever?

While it must have been mainly miscommunication in expectation (she must have somehow expected us to have this sister-like bond right away, while I was very content with the polite small talk happening)

Was it HER expectation? Or HIS like him trying to hurry along or force a triad? Cuz sometimes people do that.

I find myself increasingly annoyed when he shares even little information about her or angry at him for leaving on the weekends to see her.

So why not ask him to stop telling you all this stuff? Since him telling you bugs you?

Sounds like A is oversharing information from that side of V, and it bugs you when he overshares. And it bugs you to know that he picks out people like this to be with (if she truly is annoying).

You initial impressions of her were ok. You are hearing all the rest from A from the sound of it. Is he describing her accurately or through his own filter? Cuz...

I was surprised to find her to be a pleasant and friendly person – she seemed less insecure and more down to earth than A had described her

That happened. Does A exaggerate?

And while I’m still not jealous in the traditions I-am-afraid-he-will-like-her-better-way, I am struggling with negative emotions toward her. I can’t see what he sees in her, I find myself increasingly annoyed when he shares even little information about her or angry at him for leaving on the weekends to see her. I’ll now say the cruel and mean thing you are not supposed to say; my kind of jealousy is more of a I-am-so-much-better-why-would-he-waste-his-time-with-her-when-he-could-be-with-me?…

That is not upset with her. That is upset with HIM.

If B disappears and he doesn't change his dating criteria? He picks a new B type person? The problem is still there isn't it?

That HE keeps picking out these kinds of people?

I have found no information on how to handle this kind of jealousy in any self-help forum so far.

I do not think it is jealousy -- like you have something with A you are afraid B will take away.

It is also not envy -- like B has something with A you want for yourself.

To me you sound disappointed with A. Is that it?

Meanwhile B seems to only bring struggles and childish drama to the table…

Ah, but WHO is telling you about all that? A from the sound of it. You have spent little time with B yourself.

You can say "Well, that has nothing to do with me. That's over there on THAT side of the V" and ask him to stop oversharing his problems with you.

Say B really is this insecure and odd sounding. Who is the one picking B out? A.

Who is the one telling you about all his B problems? A. If he dislikes B so much, he could break up with B rather overload you with his problems.

Who picks A out to date? YOU. If you have picked out a person who turns out not to be as great or as solid as you first thought? Rather than blame the other person B for being themselves? Could stop picking A out.

I was very positive and confident that polyamory could work for me not just as an “experiment” but as a long term relationship setup.

It still might. Just not with these people.

But now I can’t see any long-term future for me and A that involves me and B sharing more than an occasional coffee – and I don’t want a relationship that just consists of me and my partner sharing a few hurried moments; I do want commitment, a perspective of a life together, maybe of a family. I am at the point where I have even considered ending the relationship in order not to waste either As or my time and energy on trying to solve this, if in the end I can’t come to terms with her.

Yup. If you cannot deal with A picking out these kinds of partners? Stop dating A.

I have tried to force myself to like her, to create a positive image, remind myself that I actually did like her in the start and be empathic to her struggles…

Why force yourself to do things you do not want? So you can be OK with A picking her out? So you can be ok still dating A?

If you just are not, you are not. You don't have to be doing kitchen table poly here. Why force it? That is not healthy.

That is why I don't think this is jealousy. I think it is disappointment.

Has anyone been in a similar position or has some general advice?

Well, I didn't date him. I had a crush on a guy. But knowing myself? I let it go a long time to wait and see. And he kept picking out drama people to date. Which made me realize that yeah... I still kinda liked him. But I didn't like the company he picks out. Which made me like him less.

So then I was glad I left it at a crush with "wait and see." Spares me a lot of grief that way.

Here... this stuff didn't come out til after you were dating him a while. Yet to me it is kinda the same thing. The NRE rose colored glasses coming off, and you are seeing A for real now. And it bothers you. Only maybe you are pinning the upset on B.

Yeah, B may have their problems. But the way A behaves is what's annoying you -- oversharing data, telling you every little B thing, etc. Maybe hearing about A putting up with poor behaviors from B. Which makes you respect/like A less.

I do not think you are jealous of B.

I think you are becoming super disappointed and disillusioned with A. :(

And now you have to figure out what to do about that. :(

Galagirl
 
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I have a very strong feeling you're not admitting to all of what you feel and what is happening. Which is not an error, just very human.

Try to understand the building blocks of your 'jealousy' better. A few suggestions, which may be right or not quite:

  • You've been together with your partner for a few months, they have been together for five years. Their relationship had much more time to evolve, which means that for all practical purposes so far she is primary. But you and your partner are feeding yourselves stories about "we are supposed to be equal". You are angry with your partner for not telling his whole truth.
  • You were not jealous at first, because she was remote and therefore not real in your mind. Therefore you crafted a story of "I am not jealous, I can handle polyamory" and "polyamory is not going to be really different than monogamy". Now you're discovering more of the reality.
  • You don't tell us the story about why she is jealous. You are probably disappointed that you were not accepted by her.
  • You are harshly judging displays of 'neediness', 'social awkwardness', etc. I'm sorry to say this probably means you have a strong facade going, where you tell yourself that you are the one who deosn't have needs, who can always cope alone and be there for other people. Which generates a lot of pressure on yourself. This is likely a broader topic in your life, not just in this relationship. Situations where you in fact can't cope are bound to take you by surprise and cause more suffering than need be. I suggest you try to get some awareness about this one, where it came from and how it manifests in your life.
  • You're making it a competition where it's not supposed to be one.
  • You are telling yourself that you can "force yourself to like her", instead of accepting the reality that you don't. You are probably disappointed in yourself for not being the 'perfect poly person'. But you don't have to like your metamours - it doesn't make poly life easier, but better just tell what it is (which you just did).
  • You've crafted a mental image of what ... living together as a trio? Which is now gone. You are grieving.
Be completely honest with yourself (well, as much as possible) about how you feel and what you want, and ask for complete honesty from others. Don't craft 'white lies', and you will see if you need to break up or not.
 
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I'm not sure that the feeling you're describing is jealousy.

I don't want to project too much, but I had a similar experience with my ex partner George and his partner Gina. Similar to what you described, I hadn't thought much about her and didn't feel a curiosity to meet her on my own, but George pushed, so I met her. Soon after she became a much bigger part of my life and relationship than I was comfortable with. Not un-like what you described I soon found just the mention of her to be extremely irritating. I perceived her to be territorial, pushy, and a bit manipulative, and I guess I felt righteous in those feelings. But it was more than that, and I was worried at different moments that I was jealous, even though there was nothing about her that I particularly envied, and I wasn't afraid of losing anything (or anyone) to her.

Your post actually drew me because at first glance it reminded me of an old thread I posted, titled "Jealousy, Or Something Else...?"

Here's what I can see now that I couldn't admit at the time: I don't like Gina.

There's nothing wrong with her, per se. She's just not someone that I would choose to spend time with, and in fact, for me, she's one of those people where if I didn't know her from Eve and just came across her Instagram account, after a quick glance I'd get a sense of the je ne sais quoi that I find so off putting, roll my eyes and move on.

Is it possible that you just don't like this woman? You mentioned feeling, perhaps, that she isn't on your level, because she seems insecure and not quite as confident. But without making a value judgement in terms of being outspoken vs. shy or levels of confidence, you did express relief when she initially seemed not to be that way, because that isn't the type of person that you typically get on with.

I could be wrong, but I'm just throwing this out there for you to consider. Especially because I was the newer partner, I felt an immediate pressure to like my metamour (my partner's partner). I felt like we had to get along and that it might threaten my relationship with my partner if we did not. The thing is, people don't like to just get smushed together like that. As adults, we might end up working with people we don't get on famously with, or having friends of friends that we don't quite gel with, but even then there's a very limited pressure to interact with those people in a purely social setting.

If this metamour has the expectation that the two of you are supposed to have a very close relationship (Gina did, too), but she isn't someone you genuinely like, it makes sense that you don't feel right about it, and that you feel agitated.

If my hunch turns out to be the case and it isn't jealousy but just a case of the incompatibles, consider finding a way to explain to her and your partner that a super-close "sister like" relationship is not in the cards for you two.

It doesn't have to be a deal breaker. (Maybe brush up on parallel poly vs. kitchen table poly). Being poly does not require that everyone is bestest friends with everyone else, and forcing it or faking it will only do more harm than good, in my experience, at least.
 
Hello and Welcome!
... I agreed to meet B the next time she came to visit him. We met at a café and I was surprised to find her to be a pleasant and friendly person – she seemed less insecure and more down to earth than A had described her, which helped me a lot: I am a very outgoing and confident person and have a hard time connecting with overly shy and unconfident people.

So. Here I am hearing that A's description of B didn't mesh with what you observed at your first meeting.

...everything that happened after has tainted the good first impression I had, made her niceness seem fake and slowly is making me dislike her. In my mind, she is slowly turning into this insecure, needy, socially awkward and dependent teenager, which I logically know she probably is not, but I can’t help picturing her to be.

Is your revision of you own initial impression based entirely upon what A is telling you? Because I am wondering why you are weighing your interpretation of his description higher than your own first-hand impression?

Do you have some reason to think that he is better at reading people than you? That his relationship with her provides some greater insight? (Which may be true, but may also bias his perspective in other ways.)

Could he be (unconsciously) feeding you negative impressions because he is trying to flatter you, feed your ego?

... I can’t see what he sees in her, I find myself increasingly annoyed when he shares even little information about her or angry at him for leaving on the weekends to see her. I’ll now say the cruel and mean thing you are not supposed to say; my kind of jealousy is more of a I-am-so-much-better-why-would-he-waste-his-time-with-her-when-he-could-be-with-me?.

I can't remember what thread but I have written about some similar experiences here before.

Basically, when Dude is dating someone that I don't particularly like or find attractive, it turns me off to think about them together and I don't really want to hear anything other than "bare bones" info - things that affect my schedule or sexual health.

When Dude is dating someone that I like/admire/am attracted to, then I am likely to want to develop my own relationship with them (friendship or otherwise). In which case, I don't mind hearing more details (although I still don't want "private" stuff.)

Dude does have an uncanny ability to find something to appreciate in virtually everyone - so I try to step back and view that as a virtue. (I, on the other hand, am very, very selective as to who I invest my time and interest in - I would rather spend time by myself than with most other people.)

... I am confident, I am intelligent and beautiful and happy and have a fulfilled, successful private and professional life which I love!

Congratulations! Good for you! Me too!

There is this cultural expectation that every issue someone has can be traced back to "low self-esteem" ( - and, I have to say, that parts of Tinwen's reply seems (to me) to assume that you don't truly believe that you are as awesome as you think you are.)

I call Bull-Shit. Because the minute you admit that you are, in fact, awesome and "exactly the person that I want to be" (Pardon me for the song lyric, I'm on an Amanda Palmer kick.) THEN you are a conceited bitch or obviously harboring some deep-seated insecurities that you are unwilling to face.

...I was very positive and confident that polyamory could work for me not just as an “experiment” but as a long term relationship setup.

And this may still be true. Although not, perhaps, (as GG points out) with these people at this time (in your current state of mind).

...I can’t see any long-term future for me and A that involves me and B sharing more than an occasional coffee...

And this is a problem? For who? You are willing to be "formal polite" with your metamour, but no more. Fine. Who is saying that you have to? (You may want to do a search here about "parallel poly" vs. "kitchen-table poly" - we discuss this a LOT!)

... I don’t want a relationship that just consists of me and my partner sharing a few hurried moments; I do want commitment, a perspective of a life together, maybe of a family.

Did your relationship with A feel like "a few hurried moments" before you met B? If not, what has changed? Is A actually spending LESS time with you than before the meeting? Regular people (Muggles :p) spend plenty of time away from their partners/spouses for multiple reasons - travel, work, kids, golf - or, in poly, another partner. As long as YOUR needs are being met, why does it matter?

Now, in my opinion, kids are an entirely different matter. If you want to make a baby with someone, then THAT is a second full-time occupation for both parents. If everyone is not on board then...DON'T FUCKING DO IT!

In my personal situation, any child that I conceived, with either partner, would have been mine and MrS's - Dude could be there or not but kiddo would have had 2 100% parents plus whatever Dude could add. (It didn't happen so ... simpler this way :cool:).

I am at the point where I have even considered ending the relationship in order not to waste either As or my time and energy on trying to solve this, if in the end I can’t come to terms with her.

That is certainly your prerogative! You are under no obligation to try to fit a square peg into a round hole. You have this (one?) life to live - you get to decide how it goes!

I have tried talking to A about this, but I don’t want him to feel like I’m asking him to leave her or choose (It has hurt me a lot because of course his 5-year-realtionship with her is characterized by another depth and he has ‘slipped up’ and pointed this out in a way that might imply a certain priority on her side).

I have mixed responses to this - in general, the consensus seems to be that the one that issues an "ultimatum" loses - so, I wouldn't choose that option unless ending the relationship is an option you are willing to accept. At the same time - "I don't think that being in a poly network that includes B is something that I can endure long-term, so if that is going to continue then I am bowing out." might just be a piece of information...let the chips fall where they may. (In truth, we are talking about a few months into a possibility - you are awesome, you have MANY options, you don't need to settle!)

I have tried to force myself to like her, to create a positive image, remind myself that I actually did like her in the start and be empathic to her struggles… I’m just failing at it and I don’t know what to do anymore?

You don't have to like everyone, you don't have to like every metamour you are presented with. For me, friendship/attraction/chemistry are inevitable forces - logic only gets me so far.

I even thought about trying to meet her again, but I can feel every cell of my body cringing and withdrawing at the idea and I fear the outcome might be even worse if I meet her with this bias. I just don’t know how to shake it.

Me? If I wondered if my impression might be tainted by A's interpretation/perspectives then I would want a "second look". If I knew that the only way I could stay were with a "parallel polly" - then I wouldn't bother. If I knew that if I couldn't have a relationship with A if it wasn't "kitchen-table" poly then I would meet again to find out if it was worth going on. (If you are contemplating breaking up over this, then what is the "even worse" that could happen?")

Has anyone been in a similar position or has some general advice?

yes, other people have been in a similar position - and yet, your situation is unique to YOU. We can offer up our perspectives, but only you can decide what is right for you.

Good Luck.

(PS. Not so personal, but my friend, MrClean, ended up divorcing his wife. I never could decide whether his viewpoint was skewed or if she was a different person in private than the one we met publicly, because his stories never matched the person that I met.)
 
Hello Kindalosthere,

I am hearing you say that you really, truly want to like B. You are asking us how to do that. I will try my best to tell you how, but understand that this is a difficult question for me. I am not sure what the answer is.

One thing to consider is that 99% of your knowledge of B is based on what A has told you, and only 1% on your own actual contact with her. Can you really be sure that A is painting an accurate picture of her? Maybe the five years he has spent with her have actually soured his opinion of her, he has become disillusioned. Like the NRE wore off, and then he was disappointed. So then everything he tells you goes through that filter. He may have a distorted view of her, and now his views are causing your views to get distorted. Does that make sense?

Another thing to consider is that she lives two hours away. That makes it difficult to spend time with her. And thus, you may not get that opportunity to get to know her directly, via your own actual contact with her. If that's the case, and if he is painting a biased picture of her, then maybe it would be better if he would just not talk to you about her? You might get rare opportunities to visit with her, and that might give you a better perspective. If you do visit her again and that second visit goes poorly, then I guess you'll know it would be better to not visit her anymore? Does that make sense?

You might be able to like her a little bit more if you can discover a new perspective about her. A perspective that perhaps doesn't rely on A to give you true (and complete) information about her. If you can't meet up with her, or feel you can't meet up with her, try to develop a neutral perspective about her. You don't know her personally and you can't rely on A to give you (complete and) accurate information, so she is just someone with whom you are not familiar. She is not a friend, she is an acquaintance. And maybe it's okay if it stays that way.

In poly, not every metamour has to like every other metamour. Much less have sisterlike bonds with each other! Heck, metamours don't even have to like each other. As long as they meet up seldom or never, they can just be polite with each other on those rare occasions when they see each other. And the hinge partners (A in this case) don't have to talk to either metamour about the other metamour. There's no requirement in poly that says you have to hear about your metamour. And A needs to realize that. Not having to hear about B may give you the chance to detox so to speak.

There is, of course, also the problem of how A's relationship with B affects your opinion of A. If we are to assume that B is a bad/sucky person (not necessarily the case), then what does it say about A that he has continued to consort with B *for five years?* Did he seriously need five years to figure out that she was a bad/sucky person (and apparently even five years isn't enough, as he is still consorting with her). How does this make you feel about him? Do you want to continue to consort with him, knowing this about him? Would that say something bad about you? Only you can decide.

One thing I would suggest is that you don't have to be in a big hurry to like B. A took five years. You've only had a few months and like I said, 99% of that is what he's told you, you've only met her in person once. Give yourself some time.

Hopefully the posts in this thread so far have helped.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
According to our guidelines, if this is going to be an ongoing discussion, we recommend using nicknames instead of one letter.

I will use Arthur and Brianna. You can pick others, of course.

I just concur with the others. Metamours don't have to meet. Metamours don't have to like each other if they do meet. Kitchen table poly might work if a hinge has 2 partners who have lots in common, hobbies, personality matches, etc. But this is a bonus, not a requirement.

Often, hinges have the romantic loving notion to be with both his partners at once, often. He's lying on the couch with his legs in one lap and his head in another. From what I've seen, there's a good chance this can happen. But there's a better chance it won't.

And in my experience, as a woman, who has a female nesting partner, my horny (ex) bf's all too often get attracted to my very nice, very cute female partner if we all get too in each others' spaces. And she and I don't like to share partners. We like V's, not triads. (Too complicated.) So that kind of close KTP can backfire anyway.

Are you older than Brianna? You're a "professional," she's a possibly teenaged university student? Is Arthur also a teenaged university student? Were you attracted partly to his youthful enthusiasm, but now are becoming annoyed by his immature dramaz with Brianna?

I'd recommend stopping seeing Brianna. Have Arthur stop oversharing about his issues with her. Maybe he's outgrowing her anyway, if they met in high school. Maybe he's not really poly. Maybe he's looking for a soft breakup with Brianna, maybe not.

I'd try renegotiating things with Arthur, now that you're more informed about how metamour relationships work.

You can also look around the website Morethantwo.com for more info on this topic (and many others).
 
Uncomfortable feelings

Hi Kindalosthere,

I don't post very often on here, but this resonated with me. I had a similar experience in a previous poly relationship, and it's taken me a while to work my way through how I felt and why. For me, it also didn't feel like jealousy, but more like a kind of envy that someone could behave in all of the ways I'd been taught not to, and still get my partner's love and attention. Why did this feel so painful? Because it mirrored the way things had been when I was growing up - behaving as I'd been told I should, only to see someone who was behaving in all the ways I'd been told I shouldn't get rewarded for it.

Could that be coming into play? In my case, my metamour behaved in increasingly destructive ways and they eventually split up, but regardless my response and feelings about that relationship were all mine to work on, and I have been since.

I hope you manage to sort out your feelings about her behaviour - it does sound like your partner could be a better hinge as others have said. Good luck!
 
How is it going, Kindalost?

My post may be off so feel free to dismiss it, but I think we'd all love to hear back from you.
 
Hello everyone!
First of all, I am terribly sorry I didn’t respond earlier – my schedule is crazy and I really wanted to take the time to respond a little to everything you have said!
Thank you all so much for your replies!
Each of them was helpful in a different way and just hearing that I am not the only one who struggles with something like this (and that it doesn’t make me a terrible person) has already made me feel much better! Your responses have also given me a lot to think about and I have tried to keep your advices in the back of my head during my week to see what might resonate with my behavior the strongest.

I’m gonna try to answer/respond to as many open questions as I can, but please be patient if I maybe miss one or my answer is a little vague. I’m also going take up Magdlyns advice and use the names Arthur and Brianna (sorry, I must have overread the part in the guidelines where it came up)! To answer the age questions, it is actually the other way around: I am still a student, Arthur works at the university and Brianna is working in research in another city. Arthur is 6 years older than me, Brianna only 3.

To those who fear Arthur might mispresent/ overshare/ down talk Brianna, I don’t think that is the case; he shares very little information about her – I of course told him when it started pissing me of – and often it’s just a small side note to a story or conversation, which is why I’m so irritated with myself for getting annoyed at it.

Disappointment in him and his way of choosing partners might actually play a role, together with weird feeling of maybe-I-just-don’t-like-her and I-therefore-don’t-understand-what-he-sees-in-her, which could be the reason I find it hard to be happy for him when he is with her. This might also be linked to the underlying truth that for now she is practically a primary and that I do not yet fully trust her to accept me as a potential long-term partner to Arthur(I didn’t want to mention it because it is very speculative, but from the way Arthur, Brianna and his metamour Cornelius interact I have the distinct feeling that Cornelius is viewed by all parties included as more of a “temporary” than a “permanent” partner).

The reason why I can’t really speak about how Brianna might feel or if/why she is jealous or not is simply that I do not know. One of the things that has gotten me very frustrated is her inability to communicate with me – e.g. communicating her expectations during our meeting or her feelings after (she has my number and all) – and that I don’t want to rely on Arthur to go back and forth between us like a pigeon, losing half the message on the way.
I really had hoped to have a positive relationship with Brianna outside of the frame of Arthurs and her relationship and yes, maybe I am grieving that I might have to say bye-bye to the kitchentable-image I had crafted in my mind (I had to read up in this and I have not decided yet if a parallel relationship is something that I could see for myself in the future – I’m working on this one and will keep you guys posted!).

The comment about me not relying on others hit home hard: it’s true and I don’t – I have made bad experiences on being dependent on others, so I actually don’t see that as negative. I know I do need help from time to time and that I don’t need to do everything alone, but I would never rely on romantic partners to accomplish that and usually it’s my friends (who are basically my family) I would go to. I have been really proud of myself for being able to handle “my shit” on my own and it has given me a lot of confidence in myself and my decisions, which is why I’m not sure if I want to change that… but you pointing it out has certainly brought my awareness to it.

Arthur is aware that my relationship with Brianna is … I don’t know… ‘squishy’?
He is trying in his way, wants me to join an online hobby him, her, Cornelius and a group of Arthurs childhood friends enjoy – I am not really interested, but I am willing to give it a go and see where it goes.
We also had a heavy talk this week, because he would very much like me to spend New Years with him – which would mean spending it with Brianna, Cornelius and the same friend group in Arthurs hometown. I don’t think it’s a good idea: it would be the first time him and Cornelius spend a whole night together with Brianna there; at the same time it would be the first time me and Brianna spend a whole night together with him in close proximity and it would also be the first time Cornelius and me would meet each other and both Arthurs friends and his family. To me that seems a little much…

In total I’m trying to give myself a little more time and 'cut myself some slack' with coming to terms with all that I am feeling; I'm trying to educate myself and to read more about poly-relationships (e.g. your blogs! :) ) and figure myself out a little more before I try to figure anyone else out…

I have to end this message here, because I need to get going – but I hope I answered at least a few of your questions and will keep you updated!
Thank you all so much again, even just writing about this feels like some form of catharsis!
 
I think it might help to try looking at a few things differently.

B didn't run away without telling anyone, it wasnt a 'fit' she chose to take some time by herself. Honestly, you make her sound like a misbehaving child rather than the grown woman I'm assuming she is. From what you've said, she didn't start an argument and she wasn't mean. If I were having issues, I too would rather take some quiet time than lash out at people. Nothing even remotely like a 'fit' there.

A is oversharing. Rather than building up a nasty picture of b in your head, why not realise that the only things you know about b really are what a is telling you. If b really is causing drama? It doesn't matter. It's not your drama. Going purely from what you have said, you haven't spoken to this woman since the coffee. You have no idea what is really going on. Could try staying in your lane and telling a to manage his without involving you.

It might also be helpful to realise that what you find needy isn't what someone else would find needy. A sees b at weekends? So two days a week? Is b constantly on the phone or texting all the time? Do you get quality time with a? Because really, that's the only thing you need to concern yourself with. *Your* relationship.

Lastly you really don't need to like her. It's very possible that she wanted some time to process her feelings after meeting you because she didn't like you either. And that Is all fine. I couldn't stand the last meta I had and the feeling was very much mutual. I focused on my relationship, she focused on hers. Sometimes parallel poly is the only way it will work. You shouldn't have to force yourself to like someone.
 
Thanks for updating, Kindalost.

Upon reading the update, and rereading your OP, I've got some questions.

You say you have a successful private and professional life. But you're a college student. So how are you "professional?" Are you a grad student? I'm just wondering why you think of Brianna as a needy teenager when she's working doing research while you're still a student. I guess because you are extroverted and confident and "beautiful," whereas you get the the impression she is introverted and socially awkward. So, you think you're "better" than her, because you're more outgoing and prettier and more of a social butterfly, and she's stuck in some research lab... I am thinking of The Big Bang Theory TV show, and she's Amy Farrah Fowler and you're Penny? Maybe Arthur is Leonard. And you think Brianna would be better off with a Sheldon than with your Leonard/Arthur.

I am not sure if you're still a teenage undergrad or more 21ish and a grad student. I will assume all of 3 of you are in their 20s. As you say, you are still figuring yourself out. So are Arthur and Brianna. The 20s are a time to do this. You say you want a long term mate, commitment, kids. But of course, Arthur may not be the person you want for a long term mate. He's poly. He's got a 5 year relationship with Brianna. He's spending weekends with her, but just "hurried moments" with you? So maybe he's not a great dating partner for you. Maybe it felt good at first, but cracks are appearing.

As far as the upcoming New Year's party, you seem to be against it. Sure, Arthur can want KTP, he can want you to spend an entire evening with Briana and her other bf. Yikes. He's the idealistic impractical one, isn't he? A dreamer? Despite his 6 year age advantage over you. You and Brianna met once for a quick coffee, she left that meeting and didn't tell Arthur where she went. You liked her at first, but now, for one reason or another, you don't like her. (And you feel superior to her, personality-wise, but she's got a 5 year history with Arthur.)

She's probably very jealous of you, as a student at the college where Arthur works, while she's 2 hours away. You both feel the other gets more of Arthur's time.

I guess he thinks if he could just get all 4 of you in one room for an evening, you'd all learn to like each other.

Add in New Year's drinks.

Yeah, that should go well. :rolleyes:
 
Hey, just because I don‘t want everyone to think I am the bitchy 19-year old banging her professor, I want to clarify : I am actually a postgraduate and I have a few years of working experience in between. I’m in my late mid 20s, Brianna is in her late 20s, Arthur is in his early 30s and Cornelius recently turned 20. One of the only things I really admired Brianna for (and really tried to express my respect for at our meeting) is her work, which I think is incredibly challenging and interesting, even though it’s something completely different from what I do.

I can’t really tell if you’re advising me to go to the New Year’s thing or not… and maybe it is because it is late, but I feel a little judged:
I’m not some horny Barbie-Doll trying to push the Girl-next-door out of the relationship (and, if I remember right, Amy and Penny ended up being best friend?). I don’t dislike Brianna because she’s a little nerdy or something like that… I have difficulties adjusting to stuff like e.g. her lacking the confidence to voice her “real thoughts” (not just to me but seemingly also to Arthur), which makes it extremely hard to anticipate her reactions/behaviour/feelings – e.g. during our first meeting, when she put up a façade and made it seem like she was happy with the way it went [Edit: I made a point out of inquiring how she felt about this and if this went the way she had wanted in the end, where she must have straight up lied to my face], only to then be dramatic about it after. I’m not a terribly bitchy or unapproachable person and I went out of my way to make sure she would feel good: I let her chose time and place; I didn’t “dress up” or anything that I thought could make me seem like I was trying to outdo her; I knew that she would have Arthurs support before and after, while I would have to handle this alone. If she had communicated to either Arthur or me what she imagined the meeting to be like, I feel like I would have been able to respond better to her… and it always seems to be the case that she retrospectively gets mad or sad but is never able to voice it while it’s happening.

I just constantly feel like I’m the one who has to be the “grownup” and thoughtful one, so that she isn’t hurt – I’m walking on eggshells (e.g. never leaving anything of mine in his flat so she won’t freak out), trying to respect and accommodate someone’s needs and feeling even when I have no idea what exactly it is they want. It’s exhausting.
 
Arthur is aware that my relationship with Brianna is … I don’t know… ‘squishy’?
He is trying in his way, wants me to join an online hobby him, her, Cornelius and a group of Arthurs childhood friends enjoy – I am not really interested, but I am willing to give it a go and see where it goes.

If' he's aware it is "squishy" why doesn't he leave it alone for you and Briana to figure out?

Did either you or Briana ask him for help or is his "help" not even asked for in this? When you say "he is trying in his way" it almost sounds like you are trying to excuse his behavior. Are you?

We also had a heavy talk this week, because he would very much like me to spend New Years with him – which would mean spending it with Brianna, Cornelius and the same friend group in Arthurs hometown. I don’t think it’s a good idea: it would be the first time him and Cornelius spend a whole night together with Brianna there; at the same time it would be the first time me and Brianna spend a whole night together with him in close proximity and it would also be the first time Cornelius and me would meet each other and both Arthurs friends and his family. To me that seems a little much…

I agree. That is too much and too many things on a "charged" kind of holiday.

Could it be that you are mad at Arthur because he keeps trying to "mold" this rather than let it develop on its own?

Like leave your relationships/friendships with his poly network people develop (or not) as they will on his own? Rather than trying to "engineer" situations so they "warm up" faster or something?

If you don't want to do New Year's like that, say "No, thanks. Too many new things at once like that. I prefer to skip it this time. Perhaps some other year." and let it go.


I just constantly feel like I’m the one who has to be the “grownup” and thoughtful one, so that she isn’t hurt – I’m walking on eggshells (e.g. never leaving anything of mine in his flat so she won’t freak out), trying to respect and accommodate someone’s needs and feeling even when I have no idea what exactly it is they want. It’s exhausting.

Could stop walking on eggshells. Could say that you are not trying to step on anyone's toes, do try to respect and accommodate people's needs and feelings when made aware of what they are. But you also are not a minder reader. You will do your best, but people do actually have to tell you what it is they'd like best.

I have difficulties adjusting to stuff like e.g. her lacking the confidence to voice her “real thoughts” (not just to me but seemingly also to Arthur), which makes it extremely hard to anticipate her reactions/behaviour/feelings

That is her problem. Be polite, but don't exhaust yourself guessing.

Ask "Is there anything I need to know about X?" and if everyone goes "Oh it's fine!" and it really is not? It is their problem for not giving clear communication.

You seem to be open to hearing it. That they do not tell? Well? That's not within your control. So if they do not like the results of them not being clear from the get go? They could learn to be clearer. Do not do the mind reader thing.

Galagirl
 
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I wouldn't call this jealousy.

Is it possible that not liking his partner's behavior is causing you to look at him in a different light?

Maybe quit worrying about her so much. She is his problem, not yours.
 
To those who fear Arthur might mispresent/ overshare/ down talk Brianna, I don’t think that is the case; he shares very little information about her – I of course told him when it started pissing me of – and often it’s just a small side note to a story or conversation, which is why I’m so irritated with myself for getting annoyed at it.
That's called the feedback loop from hell ;)
Disappointment in him and his way of choosing partners might actually play a role, together with weird feeling of maybe-I-just-don’t-like-her and I-therefore-don’t-understand-what-he-sees-in-her, which could be the reason I find it hard to be happy for him when he is with her. This might also be linked to the underlying truth that for now she is practically a primary and that I do not yet fully trust her to accept me as a potential long-term partner
Likely. The mistrust is understandable.
The reason why I can’t really speak about how Brianna might feel or if/why she is jealous or not is simply that I do not know.
Likely she is. You are the new and shiny and local (and strong and beautiful and non-needy). And, pretty much anytime a new relationship is starting, the established partner is jealous (unless they've had lots of practice), and working through it with various degrees of success.
I really had hoped to have a positive relationship with Brianna outside of the frame of Arthurs and her relationship and yes, maybe I am grieving that I might have to say bye-bye to the kitchentable-image I had crafted in my mind (I had to read up in this and I have not decided yet if a parallel relationship is something that I could see for myself in the future – I’m working on this one and will keep you guys posted!).
Yes. Look at the big picture of the relationship.
You liking things she said or didn't on one occasion is mostly small picture - but how do they treat you overall? Is that how you want to go on?
The comment about not relying on others hit home hard: it’s true and I don’t – I have made bad experiences on being dependent on others, so I actually don’t see that as negative. I know I do need help from time to time and that I don’t need to do everything alone, but I would never rely on romantic partners to accomplish that and usually it’s my friends (who are basically my family) I would go to. I have been really proud of myself for being able to handle “my shit” on my own and it has given me a lot of confidence in myself and my decisions, which is why I’m not sure if I want to change that… but you pointing it out has certainly brought my awareness to it.
Congratulations on your amazing circle of friends. I don't necessarily think you should change behavior - especially not while you're still unsure about your relationship with Arthur.

I pointed it out because it's the place your judgement comes from. So a partial answer to 'how do I not dislike (her neediness)' is to realize how your past painful experiences play into it. It tends to take the sting off the dislike a bit, although it still doesn't make it easy to like someone instead ;).
In total I’m trying to give myself a little more time and 'cut myself some slack' with coming to terms with all that I am feeling; I'm trying to educate myself and to read more about poly-relationships (e.g. your blogs! :) ) and figure myself out a little more before I try to figure anyone else out…
Overall I think you've got your head in the right place about this, so look at the big picture and trust your judgement :)

Btw., I'm in no way a good poly rolemodel, I landed myself in a relationship where I don't like my metamour :eek: and stayed for five years (and counting) and although I know the inner reasons why it has been necessary for me, I would not advise anyone to do the same. So just from my biased experience, I think you should move on to a shape and people which do suit you. Yet obviously I'm not the one to judge if you don't ;)
 
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I'm sorry if my post caused you to feel defensive.

Hey, just because I don‘t want everyone to think I am the bitchy 19-year old banging her professor, I want to clarify : I am actually a postgraduate and I have a few years of working experience in between.

For the record, and I can't speak for "everyone," I didn't mean to imply you were either bitchy or 19 or "horny" or a Barbie doll. I noted you are apparently physically beautiful, self confident and socially outgoing.

I am too! haha Beautiful, yes. Enough people, male, female, transgender, gay, bi, straight, family, friends, lovers, random guys on OK Cupid, photographers, those looking to bang me, and others who have no desire to bang me in any way, have told me I am beautiful. (I'm 63 and still get messages and dates from online dating sites, hit on regularly.)

I don't take credit for my looks. It's just genetics. But good looking people do have an advantage in life. And physically good looking people can have low self esteem and be socially awkward, so it's great you feel good about yourself inside, and value what you have to offer.

I’m in my late mid 20s, Brianna is in her late 20s,

Thanks for explaining. So she's a year or two older than you. Basically the same age.

Arthur is in his early 30s and Cornelius recently turned 20.

So Cornelius is the baby of the bunch. Brianna is 29ish and Cornelius is a decade younger. That's a big difference at that stage of life.

For the record, and tangentially, I met my current partner of 10 years duration when I was 53 and she was 31. So I'm not against age differences. But my partner had had tons of life experiences by age 31. More, in some ways, than I had. Less, in other ways. But it all works somehow.

One of the only things I really admired Brianna for (and really tried to express my respect for at our meeting) is her work, which I think is incredibly challenging and interesting, even though it’s something completely different from what I do.

I can’t really tell if you’re advising me to go to the New Year’s thing or not…

I was advising against it, like GalaGirl did, for the same reasons.

and maybe it is because it is late, but I feel a little judged:
I’m not some horny Barbie-Doll trying to push the Girl-next-door out of the relationship (and, if I remember right, Amy and Penny ended up being best friends?). I don’t dislike Brianna because she’s a little nerdy or something like that… I have difficulties adjusting to stuff like e.g. her lacking the confidence to voice her “real thoughts” (not just to me but seemingly also to Arthur), which makes it extremely hard to anticipate her reactions/behaviour/feelings – e.g. during our first meeting, when she put up a façade and made it seem like she was happy with the way it went [Edit: I made a point out of inquiring how she felt about this and if this went the way she had wanted in the end, where she must have straight up lied to my face], only to then be dramatic about it after. I’m not a terribly bitchy or unapproachable person and I went out of my way to make sure she would feel good: I let her chose time and place; I didn’t “dress up” or anything that I thought could make me seem like I was trying to outdo her; I knew that she would have Arthur's support before and after, while I would have to handle this alone. If she had communicated to either Arthur or me what she imagined the meeting to be like, I feel like I would have been able to respond better to her… and it always seems to be the case that she retrospectively gets mad or sad but is never able to voice it while it’s happening.

I'm confused how you know so much about Brianna, if you only met her once for an hour, and Arthur only mentions her occasionally, in passing. How do you know she is so jealous? How do you know leaving your things in Arthur's flat would upset her? How do you know she "always" says one thing while thinking or feeling something else?

I get the idea (from some of your words, but I could be wrong) you all are English? There's a well known tradition in English culture of being exceedingly polite, not showing your feelings, having "good manners" that don't reflect your inner turmoils, etc. Maybe Brianna is more of this bent than you are? Trying to keep that "stiff upper lip," "keep calm and carry on," type of facade?

Obviously acting against one's own feelings and desires is not recommended in polyamory. One needs to be very honest about one's feelings, while being able to convey this to partners in a kind and respectful way.

I just constantly feel like I’m the one who has to be the “grownup” and thoughtful one, so that she isn’t hurt – I’m walking on eggshells (e.g. never leaving anything of mine in his flat so she won’t freak out), trying to respect and accommodate someone’s needs and feeling even when I have no idea what exactly it is they want. It’s exhausting.


It does sound exhausting. I think Galagirl's advice might help you? I hope so. It's possible Arthur, having known Brianna so long, can "read between the lines," of what she says, and what she really feels or thinks (or sometimes does, like running and hiding after having met you). But you barely know her, so you find her very frustrating, in how her ways affect what is between you and Arthur.

I'd recommend you ignore Brianna as much as possible. And refuse to meet her again any time soon, no matter what Arthur wants. He's new to poly, after all. He wants this big Kumbaya thing going on. He's idealistic. I always proceed with caution when dating poly newbies. I try to have deep talks about how I practice poly. What the "best" practices are, as per ideas on morethantwo.com, and other informative poly sites. It's a learning process. I'm still learning, and I've been doing poly consistently since 2008, and sporadically for years longer.
 
Hello everyone, I’m just gonna try to give a quick update:

While yes, I felt some slight discomfort the last weekend, I have not had this spiral of negative thoughts I have a had the last weeks – partially directly because of this threat: somehow every time I’m starting to slip into jealous thought one of the sentences I have read here pops up in my mind and breaks the circle! It’s a little weird, but this has honestly brought me so much comfort! I also had a date on Saturday, which was really nice and exciting and even though we parted on a more friendship-y base, I felt really assured that this might actually be a good way of having a relationship for me.
I have started reading a lot more about polyamory which helps a lot with my inability to imagine a future – I haven’t found a concrete “yes, that’s how it should/will be”, but just having a little more perspective already helps a lot. I have also talked a little to Arthur about this (of course) and while he seems pretty zeroed in on the whole kitchen-table scenario, he is very understanding of my struggle and that has managed to make me more comfortable with the “it doesn’t need to be clear right now” approach that I have decided to take on this.

Unfortunately, Arthur did not have the same amazing weekend: him and Biranna had another big fight, which this time ended with him leaving a day early. Though I don’t know what exactly happened, Arthur has offered that it is just a lot of small arguments and things that bother her that have accumulated over time and yes, the communication between her and me is one of the things [GalaGirl I used your advice here and just inquired if there was anything he thought I should know :)]. While he can’t really tell me what it is Brianna would like or what I could do to go into her direction, he offered up that she seems to have a problem with me wanting to “do everything on my own” – at my initial incomprehension of this Arthur rephrased it in a more amiable way: she think that I should rely more on others and wants me to know I don’t have to figure everything out on my own.
While I (i.a. because of this threat, thank you Tinwen :) ) can see where she is coming from [Edit: e.g. me wanting to figure out if parallel polyamory is something for me in the long run might of course affect her], it fuels my initial discomfort with her wanting this “sister-like” relationship and expecting my trust and friendship to just appear out of the blue.
I am trying to reassure Arthur with “we have time, maybe we can just slowly and naturally see how it grows”, but I can tell that he is struggling with this.

To react to Magdlyns questions:

I get the idea (from some of your words, but I could be wrong) you all are English? There's a well known tradition in English culture of being exceedingly polite, not showing your feelings, having "good manners" that don't reflect your inner turmoils, etc. Maybe Brianna is more of this bent than you are? Trying to keep that "stiff upper lip," "keep calm and carry on," type of facade?

While we are all diaspora from and in a European country, none of us is British/English – I actually take this as a big compliment to my English! ;)
In total it seems more the other way around: While for now, I would be more than content with a polite relationship of mutual acceptance/respect (smalltalk about jobs, education, the places we live), Brianna seems to want a more personal relation (me talking to her about my poly-struggles, my feelings for Arthur, overall emotions), which I am struggling with as I don’t usually share private info with people I don’t trust/like.

I'm confused how you know so much about Brianna, if you only met her once for an hour, and Arthur only mentions her occasionally, in passing. How do you know she is so jealous? How do you know leaving your things in Arthur's flat would upset her? How do you know she "always" says one thing while thinking or feeling something else?

As I mentioned before, I don’t know if she is jealous or not. I know me leaving things there upsets her because I once left some fruit (I wanted to take to lunch but forgot over the weekend) that Arthur doesn’t eat/like and this sparked a discussion about her not feeling at home in Arthurs place anymore that was significant enough for Arthur to bring it up on a few occasions. The “always” is obviously only an assumption and based solely on the way fights between her and Arthur usually go: everything is alright or at least calm while they are together, then follows a fight via mobile phone or chat once they have parted. So yeah, I might be wrong here, but for now to me it’s not even important if it is “always” or just in her communication with Arthur: her behavior strains my relationship with Arthur, who – understandably – is not in a brilliant mood when this happens which then worries or irritates me.

This week Arthur is leaving a few days longer and will go with Brianna to her family for some family functions and also celebrate his birthday with her family – I’ll try to keep the realistic line of “well, he told you he doesn’t care much about his birthday and he’s just spending it with them ‘cause he’s going there anyway” in my mind and not read anything into it.


Another weird thing I almost forgot: After their fight Brianna and Arthur decided to spend more time apart, so they’ll not see each other one weekend the month. I’m not sure how I feel about this and I’m not sure how it will affect the whole relationship, but I’m trying to not worry about it but just wait and see.
 
Having a meta try and force a friendship on me is a red flag for me and a HUGE relationship killer. Not between myself and a partner, but I mean killer of any potential friendship with that meta. The more someone tries to force a friendship on me, the less I'm likely to want to be their friend.

My whole issue with that line of thinking is "just because we're having sex with the same person doesn't mean that we have to are or going to like each other, or be BFFs." If I'm going to become friends with a meta, it needs to happen naturally the way any other friendship might form. Not just because of some shared person in common. It sounds like either you or your partner needs to have that convo with Brianna.

It's another red flag for me that just because Brianna got upset over you leaving some things in Arthur's apartment, that he agreed with her demand that things not be left behind. Or if she didn't demand it, that he issued a rule like that (unless he's going to expect her to never leave anything behind either). I can totally understand not wanting to see someone's sex toys, lingerie, or other super personal stuff around that basically just shoves your sex life in your metas face.... but some fruit?! That is extreme and points to jealousy issues that your meta needs to work on herself, not expect other people to work around.

Of course, it also sounds to me like Arthur is being complacent in all of this and allowing his other partner to dictate what you and he are able to do within your relationship because he's not setting up good boundaries of his own.

I think you have a good start with trying to limit more of the oversharing that it sounds like Arthur may have been doing. But there might need to be some more difficult convos and more boundary setting if you are going to keep having to deal with some of these issues.
 
I wonder if they had a preexisting idea of how you should behave and now they're upset when you break the script.
Like a milder form of unicorn hunting.
 
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