Boundary Pushing

ChloeJane

New member
My husband and I have been married for two years, together for five. We met as "lovers" (with our partner's permission) in sexless marriages, and ended up decided to turn our incredible spark into a long term relationship. We are both passionate, honest people with excellent communication skills - our relationship is far from perfect, but we have our eyes wide open as to who we both are - the good, the bad, and the ugly, and we love it all in both ourselves and each other.

A year ago, I broached the subject of having a threesome with my husband and another woman. I have always been bi-curious, and wanted to revisit it after some failed tries in highschool/college. He was turned on by the idea, and allowed me to start setting up on-line profiles; both of us were shocked when our third ended up being a close friend of mine who had her eye on us as a couple. After a few months of hot sex, it petered out - she got a girlfriend, we were very involved with setting up a new business, and it came to an okay end.

Missing that, I tried to find another third to no avail (this is when I heard of the title of Unicorn, and started to understand just how lucky we'd been) We opened up our relationship to another couple, and while they were great people, we just weren't into it.

So, I placed a well worded ad on CL, and found an amazing young woman who was open and curious. After a couple of dinners out, she came to our place for the weekend - we set the scene, but I made it clear that sex was NOT on the menu - no pressure from me, no way. It was a great weekend, and we drove her safely home... she txted me that she wished it had gone farther, and so our relationship began to unfold.

Fast forward two months, where we are spending most of our weekends in a threesome, living out scenarios that have always been in my dreams, but not in reality until now - an incredible dinner out, a night at the symphony, a swanky hotel room filled with crazy fantastic sex involving all three of us, cuddly sleep, an art exhibit the next morning, brunch.... it's like a dream! The sex is unbelievable, we're all having such a good time, and then, my boundaries start getting pushed.

Clear boundaries have been set by both of us as to what we're okay with/what we're not. Mine are: 1) No communication outside of me - I make arrangements, txt with her, set up dates, but my husband is not to engage in outside communication. 2) All three people have to be conscious and involved in order for any sex play to take place. Not too controlling, but still respecting our primary relationship, and keeping my heart/soul feeling safe.

So! We come across some boundary pushing right away. We all have great sex, go to sleep, and I can feel moving next to me... constant moving... I wake up, and see that they are just about to start having penetrative sex. At first I think, okay, I'll join in, it'll be fine, but my body is saying NO WAY THIS IS NOT OKAY, so I get up and go to the bathroom. I don't want to make a scene, but I am so uncomfortable and upset. We talk it out, and it's all cool - everyone understands this is a boundary for me, and we leave it at that. Next weekend? SAME THING. I do a lot of internal work - why is this not okay with me? Am I being jealous/insecure? And I think - no - we did not open up the relationship for us to have individual hot sex, but for us to have PARTNER hot sex, and this is outside of the boundaries that we have laid out. Again, huge long talks, great communication, and I'm feeling understood and heard.

This weekend, I'm trying to fall asleep, and my husband gets an enormous erection - it has been a long week, we've had a LONG and AMAZING session earlier in the evening, and I am so not there - I just want to sleep! So, he rolls over and starts up with her... AGAIN! I get out of bed and go to the spare bedroom, thinking... I should just get over this, and allow him to have sex with her, but again my body says NO WAY THIS IS NOT OKAY. We have another long communication session.

Today? Today I receive a txt from our lover asking me if I have changed my mind about my husband communicating with her outside of me. I say no, that I haven't, and she tells me that he txted her today out of the blue.

It's not that I'm not expecting for all of us to fall in love with each other - to be caught up in that delicious dopamine high of NRE. I'm not naive, and know that my husband will definitely love her - not as he loves me, but that his heart is already connected to her through great sex, fantastic experiences and time spent together being intimate and open with each other.

So why do I feel so disrespected? Angry? Like he is being totally immature and irresponsible about my boundaries? I feel lost, and about 75% of me thinks that I just want to end things.... although I know that's a cop out in some ways, and won't help us do whatever work is in the way for this to just work.

Yes, there are fears there - fears that this will damage our relationship, my trust of my husband to put my feelings first, feeling as though I have to push my boundaries just because they don't "fit" my husband's desires. But this all feels wrong - we had these laid out BEFORE we started this journey, and have revisited them so many times that I am honestly just feeling really lost and angry right now.

I definitely need advice. I have talked about it with our third, and she validates my boundaries and feelings, and was the one who came forward to let me know that he txted her today - wanting to keep me in the loop, and keep things honest and open.
 
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I am very new to the Poly-scene but I have had a couple of threesome situations.

From my point of view, the fact that he keeps trying to start things up with your third could mean that he has strong feelings for her.

Is he allowed to have sex with her while you are involved in group dynamic?

You say that you were exhausted and had great sex.. Is it possible that they weren't 100 % forefilled by the group sex, and wanted to engage in one on one action?

3 times is not only pushing your boundaries, its obviously hurting you and pushing your paitence. They are both not listening to you and thats a big problem in my opinion.

Have you spoken to your husband about his contact with the third?

Is there any specific reason that you are the go between for this situation and they are not allowed to contact each other?
 
It isn't a good sign that your husband kept giving you lip service about complying and went ahead and did what he wanted anyway, but maybe he thought that since you were sleeping in the same bed, it still counted as you being there. As farfetched as it may seem to you, many times we think people understand what we want and that they heard what we said, only to discover they interpreted it differently in their own minds.

It also sounds like he is not comfortable with your boundaries (which do seem quite unrealistic) or they just do not work well for him, but he is perhaps afraid to ask for some renegotiation. I am not excusing what he did, but I can see why he would be hesitant to speak up. You want to call all the shots and be in charge of both his and her desires and activities. Reality appears to be proving that your ideas about what is acceptable may not be satisfying to anyone but you and your need to be in control.

From what you wrote, it seems like she is respectful of your wishes, but is kind of in the middle with no say about what she wants. She's sort of trying to make both of you happy, while he is doing what he thinks threesomes are all about -- you're all in bed together after a nice night of fucking but he's got another hard-on, you're asleep and she's responsive, so why not enjoy the person who is there and not have to worry about waking you up and getting permission first?

If you must insist that you only have sex when all three of you are present (and awake), why not experiment in being a little more lenient? Perhaps you can just watch them a few times, or just hold her hand and stay connected in some way while they fuck, if your body isn't feeling like participating. You can be included in the sexual dynamic without taking part in every single physical act.

To me, your rule about him and her not contacting each other directly is rather controlling and appears to indicate a big fear on your part, of losing control. It's okay for him to put his dick in her but not send her a text? Can you see how that logic may not make much sense? From my perspective as a single woman, I just figure I should be able to communicate directly with anyone who sticks his dick in me, whether he's married or not. Otherwise, I'd feel like a hooker having someone setting me up with a john. It will get old to her pretty quickly to be used that way, I am sure.

Do you not trust your husband, or her, or either of them enough to allow for some conversation outside of when you are all together in the bedroom? Surely, if they want to get together they would come to you for scheduling. What are you afraid of if they meet together without you? I pose these questions so you can ask them of yourself and examine why it is these fears or insecurities have prompted you to impose such heavy-handed and unrealistic rules on the situation.

In addition, you say you want it to be only a Two Plus One situation. Time and time again, we have read posts here from couples, and the women they play with, who have found out that such an approach is not only difficult, but rather disrespectful of all the individuals involved. The fact is you and your husband may be married but you are also two individual, autonomous human beings. Interacting with someone as if you as a couple is one entity is just a falsity, because you aren't one entity; you are two people who happen to be married and in partnership with each other. Your libidos and wishes are not always going to be the same, and totally synchronized with each other. The woman you found to be with is an individual with her own rights, wants, needs, and desires. She is not an appendage nor a toy, and neither is your husband a robot who can turn his desire on and off to make sure you aren't offended.

The reality is that you are NOT Two Plus One, you are all One Plus One Plus One. The way you want your threesomes to play out is in a manner that most people would object to. If you truly want this to evolve into meaningful poly relationships among the three of you, perhaps you can loosen up some of your boundaries and learn to trust a little more. Most people act in a trustworthy manner when they know they are trusted, and are not held back by such a tight leash. But they will rebel when they feel they are not trusted. However, he needs to step up and take responsibility for disregarding your wishes, at least by explaining what his thought process was. And he should be able to ask for some shifts in the boundaries if they are not to his liking, before pushing past them, and without being afraid of upsetting you.

Whatever you do, it will be important for all THREE of you to sit down and discuss what each of you are comfortable with, so you can negotiate and agree on boundaries together. Then make plans to revisit the discussion in a few months to see how everyone is doing. When you mentioned talking things over, it sounds like you only talked with your husband and left her out of it. And then she's just supposed to accept whatever you decide. That is just plain not nice, and disrespectful of her. I wish you well as you move forward.
 
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I 1,000% agree with everything Nyc said. Spot on.
 
I'll add just a couple of thoughts of my own...

- It's not ok for your husband to continually disrespect your boundaries. He needs to provide a clear explanation for *why* this happened. Did he misunderstand, was he just horny, did he think it was unfair? Why did he text her when that was clearly counter to your request to him? If he's trying to go behind your back that is NOT ok and needs serious attention. On the other hand, if he just wanted to say "hey, sorry things got weird the other day", that just seems human.

- Some rules make sense in theory but don't work so well in practice. It doesn't excuse your husband's repeated overstepping, but it might be that these rules just don't make sense in practice. It may be helpful to think about *why* you want these rules. What are you afraid will happen if the two of them text, or if they continue fooling around in bed while you're there even though you've decided you're done? Are there other ways to either break down or work around these fears?

- It sounds like the third is in a really tough position and has done her best to respect you, I hope that you appreciate that and endeavor to work things out such that you don't just drop her because that's easier than sorting things out with your husband. Being unceremoniously dropped when the couple discovers that things are more complicated than they thought is one of the main reasons why bi poly women shy away from anything that looks like a "unicorn" role. That stuff hurts. :(
 
Sorry, I haven't read what others have said here, so there likely will be some over lap in what I say.

In a nut shell, I think your boundaries are WAY too restrictive at this point and its time to change them. Having sex all together, not communicating out side of the triad and all that just doesn't work for the long haul and just breeds co-dependence as far as I have seen. You are not three people in a unit of one, you are all independent people that have independent lives and relationships. You with him, her with him, you with her AND then all of you together.

It might just be that she loves him more. It might be that he loves her more than the idea of all of you together... this happens. A LOT. In fact almost always in triads. No biggy, just go with it and change the boundaries. It could be that you and her will not be intimate any more or less, and they will be more, who knows... you won't know until you let go of the control over this I don't think.

This is a very common situation. You are in good company. It is the usual scenario with unicorns coming into a relationship. They are there for a short time and then things shift. It can last if there is an adjustment of expectations, assumptions and boundaries that might mean a whole different type of relationship dynamic. Perhaps a vee would be better. This is where it usually ends up anyway.

Who knows, maybe things will work out if you put your foot down. I'm sorry you feel hurt. That is a tough one.

I suggest doing a tag search for "unicorns" "triads" "lessons" and "foundations" and anything else that looks interesting and see what you learn about others in order to see where you could go next with this.
 
Boundaries are there for a reason.

When my husband and I began our threesome journey, neither of us were new to polyamory. I have dated two men simutaneously numerous times throughout my life, and have experimented with all kinds of fluidity and rules; sharing a man with a gay man where we had different nights of the week, but none of us living together, having a lover's apartment in a different city where I would spend weekends with a lover while my primary went away to play in bands and have fun of his own. There are lots of different situations and dynamics that are offered in polyamory, and I don't see boundaries as "controlling" so much as I see them as "contractual." All involved parties agree on what they're comfortable with, and revisit them as relationships mature.... no? I don't believe that there is an "ideal" that we all have to force ourselves into - each person, and each situation is unique.

When my husband and I decided to open our relationship up, we did so with very clear rules that we had both decided upon before entering into it. These rules were made because we didn't want to open up the emotional side of our relationship, or our marriage to a third, but because we were looking for a lover. Largely, this lover was to satisfy curiousities on my part around being with another woman and my husband was truly supportive of this and had deep rooted curiousities around threesomes. The first couple of times we went to bed with a third, he completely sat back, and waited to be invited into the mix. His exact words were "I will only participate as much as you are comfortable with." Our relationship blossomed under that safety and freedom to say "enough" if one of us reached a wall of some kind. There was great communication, and a friendship between all three of us, but the heart of it was mindblowingly hot sex.

In this particular relationship that we find ourselves in now, we are taking things to a whole new level of romancing, wining, dining, and getting to know each other. It's a lot of fun. The rules that you might see as excessively restricting or controlling are rules that we agreed upon before entering into this relationship to maintain our own emotional boundaries within the relationship. Not because I think that my husband is a robot, or our lover is "like a prostitute being hooked up with a John" (both of these statements are pretty intense, btw) or because I'm an overbearing control freak, but because these are the things that BOTH of us agreed upon after a lifetime of polyamorous situations to draw upon.

As much as I am for exploring my own sexuality, relationships in general, and the prewritten ideals that people place overtop of any manner of relationship, I also know what works for me, and what doesn't. I don't believe it's necessary to overrun every boundary that exists in a person in order to have a polyamorous relationship; every couple has different "rules" and those "rules" are in place for specific reasons. For me, it's not about striving for a place inside of me where I'm just okay with everything and anyone doing anything. It's about finding a place where all parties are having a wonderful time, feel respected, have great sex and clear boundaries in the "game of love" that we are all engaging in.

We had a long talk last night, and it was a good one; we touched on a lot of issues, and revisited all of our boundaries as a couple again, even writing them out so that we could add to them and change them as needed. My husband is an anarchist from way back; he has always bucked convention and balked at rules - ANY rules, even rules that he makes himself. He likes to bend/break them to see what happens, and in the mix of all of this, I kind of forgot that about him. We talked about the fact that if he did want to text her, that he should have talked with me about it first; not because I am some kind of weird gatekeeper, but because that is the promise that we had both made to each other. It would have given me the opportunity to do personal inventory, reflect, and share my feelings with him. What he did was wrong, and disrespectful, and he recognized it, took responsibility for it, and apologized to both of us for creating unecessary drama, and for putting our lover in an uncomfortable situation.

While there very well may be expansion and relaxation of these boundaries over time, but the most appropriate way for that to happen is in talks about the boundaries; not in the heat of the moment, and certainly not with our third there. She is a law student, and has a lot of stress in her life; our role in her life is to provide her with a fantasy-escape from her real life. She is not looking to be with both of us emotionally, and has made that clear to me as well; my husband is a delicious, respectful, gentle and primal sexual force in her life, I am a cerebral connection that offers her a deep friendship as well as a delicious foray into bisexuality for her. What we have going is an amazing thing, and part of the reason that it works so well is BECAUSE there are rules and boundaries in place.

I respect each and every person's journey into polyamory, but each of us have to be careful that our own needs and desires don't supercede respect, honesty or trust within any one of our relationships. Good communication is the hallmark of good relationships; rushing, boundary pushing, betraying promises and acting out of selfishness do not do much for successful relationships of any kinds. If any of our pre-agreed upon boundaries are no longer working for any of us, to be it should be worked out in a discussion BEFORE it happens, wouldn't you agree?

As for my fears? My fears lie in the fact that my husband would be willing to be dishonest with me. Not of losing him to our third; I would never hold him to me in any way, shape or form. Not of losing control; he and I co-create boundaries and rules, and our relationship in general. I fear that selfish sexual power has the power to overrun good communication, respecting each other or pushing each other to places we're not ready for, or comfortable with. I suppose if I was a wide-eyed silly girl, it would be different, but I am an emotionally responsible, honest, intensely sexual, connected and capable woman with an equally complex giving person. Staying equal and open during this opening of our love is of the utmost importance to both of us, and I am pretty proud of the good work that we're doing when we're coming up against roadblocks.
 
I just tried to post a reply, but it said that my posting had to be approved my a moderator.... is that normal?
 
I'm curious about the motivation for your boundaries, and whether you intend them to be permanent or just temporary until you are more comfortable with this lifestyle. If they are temporary, what are you doing to work beyond them and remove these restrictions? If they are permanent, how do you rationalize that this will work in the long term?

I especially don't understand why your husband and the other woman aren't allowed to communicate without you. That seems extremely insecure.

While I can understand why you think that only-threesome-sex makes sense in theory, I don't see it as being remotely practical. Clearly, your husband's and this woman's sex drives are higher than yours. When you're tired, they're still ready to go. You met this girl with the intention of pursuing this relationship, but they're only allowed to do anything when you're in the mood. When they are both horny and you just want to sleep, what are your honest expectations? Are they supposed to lie there and just dream about it? Go to the bathroom separately and masturbate? Pressure you into having sex when you're not in the mood?
 
I just tried to post a reply, but it said that my posting had to be approved my a moderator.... is that normal?

I've never heard of it, but perhaps there was language in your post that was questionable without more posts under your boat?
 
Thanks for your replies, and your questions as well – definitely helping us get closer to our own concrete answers, which is so helpful.

The motivation for our boundaries comes out of a desire to have clear definitions of what we’re all comfortable with, and want from a triad. I would never say that any boundaries are permanent, and would definitely say that we’re all very comfortable with the lifestyle. At present, we are not working to remove these boundaries; they’ve been set for clear reasons, and the issues that have come up to me are respect and trust. “Are these boundaries working for us?” gets replied to as, “You should never have to compromise your comfort for selfishness.” I think that boundaries provide a framework for people’s trust and comfort to unfold at a reasonable pace; there is no invisible ideal that we’re working towards other than mutual respect and great sex.

I have new questions for the group based on this discussion, as it seems like there are a lot of value judgements around boundaries, but not as much around breaking them. The assumption seems to be that boundaries hurt, instead of help foster good relationships. I think it’s easy to get swept up in NRE, and the sexual headiness of new partners and relationships – in our collective eyes, boundaries are a framework to respect each individual’s feelings and comfort zones, especially in the beginnings of a new relationship.

My husband put it beautifully when he referred to it as the classics “Hand in the Cookie Jar” problem; we have a fantastic dynamic going, it’s working for everyone, bur for some people, part of the fun of a cookie jar is stealing one. And isn’t part of the fun of stealing knowing that you could get caught? I am someone who keeps things really clearly defined in life; he is a much more emotionally blurry and fiery person. One of his areas of great respect for me is my ability to challenge his selfishness and ask him the tough questions And I do see the core issue here of being one of selfishness; our lover is a sub through and through, so I hold my husband responsible for pushing our collective boundaries.

I guess my questions are this: Is there something wrong with only engaging in threesome sex? Is there something wrong with having boundaries that we are to play together, or not at all? Is there something wrong with having patience and allowing that tension to build until the next morning? I ask this not because I think that there is something wrong, but because I’m feeling like the vast majority of people that have answered my post are making value judgements about it. I don’t say this out of defensiveness, but total curiousity. To me, the problem is that boundaries are being pushed and tested beyond an area of comfort, and I’m kind of surprised that the reactions are that the problems are the boundaries when our relationship is so new (around a month and a half).

It just seems strange; like the violation and disrespect of our collective agreements isn’t the problem, but rather the agreement is the problem. It seems strange that fostering sexual energy is considered more important than fostering good communication. Are they supposed to lie there and dream about it? Why not? Isn’t that delicious in its own right? And IF and WHEN those boundaries need to be changed, shouldn’t it be at a time when everyone is involved cerebrally, and not during moments of sexual selfishness?
 
It just seems strange; like the violation and disrespect of our collective agreements isn’t the problem, but rather the agreement is the problem. It seems strange that fostering sexual energy is considered more important than fostering good communication. Are they supposed to lie there and dream about it? Why not? Isn’t that delicious in its own right? And IF and WHEN those boundaries need to be changed, shouldn’t it be at a time when everyone is involved cerebrally, and not during moments of sexual selfishness?

You have to relaize the audience you are putting this question out to. It's not a judgement or slight against anyone, but if you were on a forum or support group for mono partners with poly partners you'ld get a different type of response. A lot of people on here are coming from the perspective of being poly and wanting a lot more openness and less boundaries.

That doesn't take away from the validity of thier comments at all of course. It's just important to recognize the environment you are working within.
 
ChloeJane, I actually think you are right about the value judgements that have been levelled against you... to be honest the original post did come across as overly controlled and I think that most people with a long-ish history of doing this sort of thing have learned that rigid boundaries from the start actually do harm more than help.

You sound very much like me, and I deeply respect someone who values integrity and honesty in themselves and their partners.

I have no opinion about whether rigid boundaries are a good idea or not... but aside from value judgements you do have an additional piece of information, namely that it isn't actually working for the other members of this group. The thing about boundaries is that things can and often do just go right ahead and develop as they want to. Your husband broke the rules and that's wrong. Now, like you said, you have to decide what to do with that...?
 
Hey Chloe, I appreciate the in-depth responses and you challenging us back, I find this sort of conversation to be really interesting.

I can speak to my own post above (and obviously I agreed with Nyc's, though I chose different areas to focus on). I started off by talking about your husband's transgressions and motives very deliberately because I felt like that was the most immediate cause for concern. I completely, completely agree with you that no one should be coerced into compromising their boundaries based solely on someone else's desires, and that shifting of boundaries should happen via conversation and agreement, not experimentation and pushing. Him doing that was not ok, plain and simple.

I went on from there to discuss why I thought the boundaries were problematic and yes, there is some value-judgment there -- not on you, but on the boundaries themselves.

In your post in the Intro section you refer to your third as your shared "girlfriend". If you're not opening up the emotional side off your relationship, then I find this word choice completely inappropriate. The word implies emotional involvement, I would think, which can easily develop from repeated shared sex alone. And indeed you're not just having sex you're doing romantic things together. But love is not supposed to develop? I don't see that as a realistic plan. It's possible that it'll work that way, but equally possible that one or more of you will develop feelings you didn't mean to have. I see the word girlfriend, I see sex and romance and friendship and then I see "but no feelings, k?" and words like "robot" and "hooker" begin to seem not so strange, because unlike another lover or partner, you could rationally expect a robot or a hooker to not fall in love.

We see story after story here of people who are in crisis for this exact reason -- they entered a situation that was very conducive to developing emotional attachments, like the one you've set up here, and then everything went into meltdown mode when those attachments surfaced. No one wants to see that again. I am not in favor of boundaries meant to prevent emotional attachment because a) I don't think the goal behind them is smart (inasmuch as it defies basic understandings of human nature and emotion), healthy (inasmuch as it often leads to people doing their damnedest to deny their feelings and suffering as a result), or realistic (inasmuch as it doesn't seem to work), and b) because over time they seem to be damaging to people's self-esteem.

I know you say your third is a busy person and this is her fantasy-time, and I can see how her subby desires could make this work all the better for her, but personally, sub or no, if I had a "boyfriend" and I wasn't allowed to ever just say "hey" to him, I think I'd start to feel like shit. Or if I looked into his eyes during sex and realized I was falling for him and knew that was against the rules, I'd feel like shit. When an adult is in a relationship with another adult, I believe that it is only fair and humane that they should get to bond in their own way on their own time to some degree. This does not mean anything goes and that it should be ok for them to move in together or disrespect you or anything like that. And there may well be nothing there! But if there's not, *why* keep an enforced wall between them with you as the gatekeeper for communication and physicality? So that nothing ever does develop? Well, see above for my thoughts on that.

You say the fear behind your boundaries is that your husband won't be worthy of your trust, that he'd be willing to be dishonest with you. But as you've seen by his behavior, rules alone don't make someone act in a trustworthy way. I truly don't see how a fear that someone is a rule-breaker can be solved with rules. The rules can demonstrate whether or not he *is* worthy if trust, I suppose, and indeed he's been showing a worrisome track record there. I'm really glad you two talked and that he seems to understand where his actions were coming from. But you wouldn't say "I'm worried I can't trust you, so to assuage my fears we'll put a couple boxes around the house that you're not allowed to open." That would be absurd. Rules exist for their own reasons, and that's why I've focused above so much on the no-emotional-attachment thing, because that seems more pertinent to me.

I respect your experience in poly and your ability to say what you feel is right for you. It took guts to step out of that bathroom and say "stop, we agreed you wouldn't do this" and you were right, absolutely, because again it was NOT cool for him to casually break his agreements with you. But I don't feel we've gotten to the bottom of what's going on here -- *why* are you guys not open to the formation of emotional attachments? What do you think would happen if one or more of the three of you fell in love? Why would your heart and soul be so hurt if someone did the natural thing and got emotional?

This is polyamory.com, not polyfuckery.com or swingers.net, so is it really so surprising that your audience here would balk at rules meant to prevent loving attachment? We're all about the love here. :D

For context, perhaps it would help us to know what your husband's boundaries are? Does your third have any stated boundaries of her own?
 
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Thanks again to everyone for your responses; it’s obvious that I have found a group of incredibly open and intelligent people who are used to navigating some hella tricky paths in polyamory.

Mono: I’ve been reading some of your postings – very cool. I can understand that a lot of people are on a quest for less boundaries/more openness, and that’s great if that’s what they’re after. I think that’s why I mentioned that the three of us are not striving for some kind of “ideal” in our relationship, but keeping core values in the lines of sight that will allow our triad to develop in healthy, respectful ways. There’s a big difference between discussing and changing boundaries rather than pushing them/judging them, in my humble opinion.

Kamala: Thanks for your reply, and your insight. I think that the awesome communication that we had a couple of nights ago, with added great communication last night, and the dinner conversations that we’ve intended to have with our lover on Sunday will allow us all to make sure we’re still on the same page.

AnnabelMore: S is very much our shared girlfriend. We have never had boundaries about love developing between the three of us, only around what kind of sexual interaction we have set out to engage in, and what kind of communication we would have between each other for the time being. All three of us are becoming more and more emotionally involved with each other, and I have no issues with love developing whatsoever; none of us are one-night-standers, or compartmentalize sex. I am proud of my husband’s loving nature that accompanies his sexual side, and very much enjoy/take pleasure in the way that he treats and behaves around S when we’re all together. I feel so strangely happy and proud when we go for a walk at the lake and all hold hands, or him and S walk ahead holding hands while I look on with admiration and happiness. I love his thoughtfulness when he buys a gift that he knows she’ll love and it inadvertently ties in with a gift I bought her (he bought her very nice scotch, I had bought her a decanter/glass set, for example.) His attentiveness to her life, asking about what’s happening, trying to find things that he’ll love for her to do, earnestly spoiling her – I love it all. I love the way that he looks at her when we’re making love, his total immersion in her beauty and sensuality. He loves to talk about her, and thinks about her a lot – she is so intelligent, beautiful, complex and fascinating as a human being. There is nothing in me that is threatened or upset about any of that – I foster it, and am happy about it.

S’s attraction to my husband is largely physical, and hers to me is largely cerebral. We are developing something pretty special; packages in the mail, romantic letters, txting, and my husband is extremely supportive of that – even encouraging me to go to the city and see her on my own. To date, I have declined that offer, as we haven’t shifted our boundaries in a way that I feel would make that acceptable. I have however told her that I love her, that I hear her name in my heartbeat, and that I feel fiercely protective of her. I only want her to have a wonderful experience with us, as we’re her first true and deep foray into polyamory.

I would feel a lot less respect for my husband if he were capable of having sex without emotion (no value judgement for those that love to have hot, consensual “meaningless” sex, just my preference) and look forward to our relationship growing richer on all fronts for as long as it unfolds. The words robot and prostitute/hooker do not apply here (again, very intense words to be using in a forum that seems to be centred around fostering communication and understanding!)

However! We did set up boundaries and rules to guide us into this third in our life. Our agreement was to have a shared experience of sex, the boundary was to not to just have independent sexual relationships from each other. I would never mind them having one on one sessions, as long as I was involved – standing off to the side holding hands is not real involvement – holding her to me and saying sweet/spicy things in her ear while we act as a threesome IS being involved. There have already been times when I’ve just wanted to watch, but voluntarily creating that situation is different than having it forced/foisted on you.

There are a lot of reasons behind our boundaries. My husband and I both have the tendency to lean towards Cowboy/Cowgirl behaviour (he was my secondary partner before…. Just sayin’) We got really clear about what we wanted in our lives from a third this time around, and were VERY clear about that in our on-line profile, upon meeting S (once it became clear that there was a connection, we thanked the other interested parties but declined meeting them based on a drama-free-desire) and in subsequent talks between all of us. There are no rules in place against falling in love, or expressing that love when we’re all together - only about when that is to be expressed (when we’re all together.)

That may change as our relationship unfolds, but having it pushed in the moment, or without talking about it is NOT healthy for any of the involved parties. Changing the rules/boundaries is 100% okay, when the time is right, not during moments of sexual selfishness. Also, as a sub, it creates stress for S to have to put up with instability from my husband - not conducive to totally relaxing and feeling secure!

My husband has openly admitted that he is a boundary pusher, asked for my forgiveness for his transgressions, and apologized to S for putting her in an awkward situation as well (forcing a sub to speak up for the group is uncomfortable for everyone!) I’m proud of his internal work; it’s hard for him, as he’s such a dominant personality who is very much used to doing what he wants (to his detriment at times, to be sure.) I didn’t anticipate that he would act so immaturely in the heat of the moment, or that he would allow sexual selfishness/more, more, more mentality to get in the way of trust and communication. It was a pretty big learning lesson for all of us. I do feel like our boundaries are a-okay at the moment, and a lot of that has to do with the challenges that were put on here.

Polyfuckery… that’s funny. I’d just be a happy slut if that were the case. We’re all WAY too complex and emotional for that, and swinging is not for us either.
 
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Hmmm, well, I feel a bit silly for going so far in the wrong direction if love developing is fine with everyone involved! This is the line of yours that I picked up on -- "The rules that you might see as excessively restricting or controlling are rules that we agreed upon before entering into this relationship to maintain our own emotional boundaries within the relationship."

May I ask, what does "emotional boundaries" mean in this context if love and emotional intimacy are all good?
 
More, More, More....

You don’t need to feel silly in the least; I’m totally new here, and I’m pretty sure that a lot of people have some pretty unrealistic expectations of what might happen once they open up their relationship.

I think our boundaries are to minimize confusion and complications in a complex situation, and allow everything to unfold with consciousness. My husband is a bit of a Cowboy, to say the least. Recognizing and accepting these tendencies doesn’t mean making allowances for them. Once NRE is in a more balanced place, I think I would be very comfortable with them communicating one on one if that’s something that they both wanted (S has given no indication that she does want this, to be clear, I’m just posting it as a possibility down the line). With my husband and I finding our way with each other/our partner, I think that certain boundaries will keep him from his natural tendencies to delve into selfish/feel-good/more,more,more behaviours that have proved dangerous to his primary relationships in the past.
 
Well, that makes *much* more sense. :)

I'm not looking for things to pick on here, or to interrogate you, but I'm curious about the question of his and her boundaries, if any. Also, what are your feelings/guidelines about her having partners outside the two of you? The whole situation of the bi woman coming into a marriage and how that works for all involved fascinates me (see my sig line and you can guess why!).
 
Not at all - you are very obviously a thoughtful person who looks out for ALL sides in a relationship, and that's pretty awesome in my books.

My husband is boundary-less on his own. His sexual energy is potent as fuck and he loves women immensely. She is a sub, and adores having her boundaries pushed; it makes it a lot of fun to be her lover, as being creative enough to titillate her crazy intelligence takes planning and work, which can heighten the anticipation of us all seeing each other SO deliciously. Knowing that she is boundary-less, and my husband is boundary-less, we (my husband and I) talked a lot about what had gone "wrong" in previous forays into polyamory and co-created boundaries together.

As for her having partners outside of us - that is totally cool with us; we have no "holds" on her. We do, however, practice some pretty high risk behaviour between the three of us, as we are currently closed to outside relationships, so she would need to tell us insofar as we'd need to bring in more protection into our sex play.

Your situation sounds incredible - I read your story, especially connecting with your emotional turmoil about telling Eric how much you feel for him, and about your wild anticipation of the baby. Your heart is huge, and I have a lot of respect and admiration for your willingness to be vulnerable; with great risks come great rewards!

I think that we have found a very powerful, workable dynamic between the three of us. I have no doubt that it will unfold into something even more beautiful and powerful over the months/years, but also have no attachments. My husbands pushiness has the capacity to ruin it, and he needs to watch that desire to get what he wants over the collective happiness - especially when dealing with a highly sexual sub who's truly GGG. I don't want to become his "keeper" or control him, so he has to be extra emotionally responsible in a very salacious, tempting situation. In this version of the story, it's totally ADAM who would bite the muthf'in apple.
 
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