This is a lot of work. (TP's story, when she feels like updating)

What an amazing story - Ive taken 3 days on and off to read it.

So sorry youre having problems, lots of hugs.
 
Thanks, everyone.

Indigo has backed off and given me space, for which I am grateful. He seems to have figured out that giving me space does not mean giving me a head start to run away. :p I don't feel like there's this constant pressure to be affectionate with him. In return, I'm able to be more genuinely affectionate than I otherwise would. Which is to say, I am able to be genuinely affectionate.

It's unfortunate that when things get rough between us, he needs more physical contact and I need space. I (probably) end up coming off cold and distant to him, whereas he feels clingy and needy to me. Scary in different ways to each of us.

Things were much better yesterday; we've set everything aside until our Wednesday appointment. Doesn't feel like that sky is falling anymore.
 
Yesterday I was trying to understand the problem. You sounded frustrated, annoyed, and upset that you haven't had sex with your husband since Feb. and I was thinking wow you'd think he'd be the one complaining about that. But in fact he is or has and because of a whole list of reason some having to do with sexual technique (not picking up non-verbal cues...or your direct verbal instruction) and honesty issues coupled with partner priorities (living, finances, etc) then add needy and clingy and it is or has become a major turn off.

Did things get worse after Mr. A moved in?

So from where you started have the primary and secondary roles been switched? Not in a formal sense but in a functional everyday application sense. Has that become an issue for your husband?

From day one you start this non-monogamous relationship. About a year in you change medication which wakes up your lost libido. Shortly after that you find Mr. A and 6 month or so you get married (last Nov) honeymoon last feb. The honeymoon sex was the last sex ? What a powerful statement that is in retrospect. I have to ask How was it or how would he rate it? Does he hear you high libido types going at it night n day, day and night. That's got to sting every time the door closes.

6 months of therapy and no ones seeing any progress, is the therapist poly friendly and how often do you meet?
 
So from where you started have the primary and secondary roles been switched? Not in a formal sense but in a functional everyday application sense. Has that become an issue for your husband?
DH, I'm not sure if TP sees her relationships as primary or secondary. I don't recall her using those terms for her situation.
 
Yesterday I was trying to understand the problem. You sounded frustrated, annoyed, and upset that you haven't had sex with your husband since Feb.

Yes, I am. It's not the only problem, but it is the most glaringly obvious one, so I do tend to ruminate on it more than the others.

and I was thinking wow you'd think he'd be the one complaining about that.

That's a sexist statement. You've been around here long enough that you should know better by now.

But in fact he is or has and because of a whole list of reason some having to do with sexual technique (not picking up non-verbal cues...or your direct verbal instruction) and honesty issues coupled with partner priorities (living, finances, etc) then add needy and clingy and it is or has become a major turn off.

Yes to sexual technique, yes to honesty issues, not sure what you mean by partner priorities, and he's not needy and clingy. I said that's how he seems to me when we argue, because he needs physical reassurance, whereas I need physical space. He often checks things with me waaaay more than necessary (multiple "are you okay" in one night, asking if plans are really okay, when I've already said I'm good with things, etc.). This comes across to me as a lack of confidence, which is a big turn off for me, but he says he just likes to please. I feel like I'm damaged goods and he's tip-toeing around when this happens. We're not at the point where we understand each other's motivations/point of view on this issue, but working on it.

Did things get worse after Mr. A moved in?

No. There were normal living arrangement adjustments, but I don't think the three of us have had any arguments. It was all very anticlimactic.

So from where you started have the primary and secondary roles been switched? Not in a formal sense but in a functional everyday application sense. Has that become an issue for your husband?

I don't use those terms to describe us, but if I did, I would say no switch. Indigo and I share finances, most household responsibilities are undertaken by us. I know the living arrangement with Mr. A is not permanent because of his work, and he's really in a different place in his life and not ready for the responsibility of home ownership.

From day one you start this non-monogamous relationship.

Not quite. I made it clear that I ultimately wanted a non-monogamous relationship, but wanted him to feel secure when we became open.

About a year in you change medication which wakes up your lost libido.

There was a switch around that time which bumped it a little, then a complete change in March which basically put me back to what I was pre-drugs that killed libido.

I've been on so many different meds, the timelines do get a bit wonky. So, if there are inconsistencies, that's why.

Shortly after that you find Mr. A and 6 month or so you get married (last Nov) honeymoon last feb. The honeymoon sex was the last sex ?

Correct. There were a few occassions where there was sexual interaction (which in fairness, were good if a bit awkward), but no vaginal intercourse.

What a powerful statement that is in retrospect. I have to ask How was it or how would he rate it?

I didn't cum, if that's what you're asking. I rarely have (had?) orgasms from vaginal intercourse with Indigo. We were out of the country and I didn't bring lube or a BOB because, well, I didn't want my bags searched or whatever. And eating me out after he's cum in me is not Indigo's cup of tea, so there was no activity when he was done.

When I've asked in the past, Indigo is of the opinion that we have good sex, whereas I've felt that most encounters are not what I need. Not that he's some unskilled bumbling oaf; I know the last encounter he had with another partner, she told him he gave great oral sex. I do believe there are some sexual compatibility issues between us, but they would be manageable without the other baggage that has been piled on top.

Does he hear you high libido types going at it night n day, day and night. That's got to sting every time the door closes.

No, and it's not day and night. I've asked him repeatedly if he's ever heard anything. He says no, says he would let me know if there was a problem. It's not uncommon for him to joke about turning the TV up, he asks at least once a week if Mr. A and I need/want alone time and when Mr. A and I occassionally leave the room to be intimate, he often says "giggidy" or hums Gary Glitter.

6 months of therapy and no ones seeing any progress, is the therapist poly friendly and how often do you meet?

Not no progress. We've made reasonable progress on the non-sex issues, and my logical mind tells me that when there is more progress with those issues, the sex will be easier to sort out. But, as I've said before, the amount of progress I perceive is directly affected by my mood.
 
Not no progress. We've made reasonable progress on the non-sex issues, and my logical mind tells me that when there is more progress with those issues, the sex will be easier to sort out. But, as I've said before, the amount of progress I perceive is directly affected by my mood.

Even with progress, when there is a bump along the way, it can send your mood/emotions back to the beginning or worse. It really SUCKS because it makes for some extreme down swings. However, the bounce back can be faster and help move you forward also.
 
Even with progress, when there is a bump along the way, it can send your mood/emotions back to the beginning or worse. It really SUCKS because it makes for some extreme down swings. However, the bounce back can be faster and help move you forward also.

Absolutely true. And I feel magnitudes better today than I did on Sunday. I think that's part of the reason it's easy to minimize, because when things are going well it doesn't seem like a big deal. When they're not going well, it's feels like a deal-breaker. The truth is probably somehwere in between.
 
why do you think that was a sexist statement ?

It sounded like there was an issue in which he wasn't stepping up to his responsibilities as husband and partner in terms of finances...his priorities may have been out of line with yours. His priorities as a partner.

The honeymoon sex question... I was thinking in general terms .. great, good, ok but more information is all way good....or can't hurt, right. The reason for the question was after 9 month and counting would it be a fond or sustaining memory for him.

So he doesn't have a problem with the lack of sex? And his words and jokes indicate that he's fine with that going on around him. And even tho you have a problem with him telling lies you believe him.

It sounded like very little progress had been made if after 6 months and you feel like your marriage is crumbling around you and you haven't had sex with your husband in 9 months. So what you're saying is you were having a bad day and things weren't as bleak as they may have seemed yesterday.
Is the therapist poly friendly or poly approved. Someone should come up with a seal to stamp on things for just such occasions.
 
why do you think that was a sexist statement ?

Why should it be the man complaining about the lack of sex, instead of the woman? If you don't understand, I really can't be bothered to explain it any further. Perhaps someone else would care to.

It sounded like there was an issue in which he wasn't stepping up to his responsibilities as husband and partner in terms of finances...his priorities may have been out of line with yours. His priorities as a partner.

In terms of finances, yes. He does more than his fair share around the house, and I would be fine with minding the bills, etc., but the credit issues mindfucked me. He has made a solid effort to keep track of things in the last few weeks (calling the two companies in question to make sure the issues are still on their radar to be resolved) and has an appointment with a credit counselor Friday. If he continues to follow up with the two issues like he has for the last while, and takes care of any future issues in the same way, I would be perfectly happy.

The honeymoon sex question... I was thinking in general terms .. great, good, ok but more information is all way good....or can't hurt, right. The reason for the question was after 9 month and counting would it be a fond or sustaining memory for him.

I don't think this really applies. He's never been very sex-focused, and is looking at the relationship as a whole. I would imagine that knowing we can be good together is the sustaining thought, not that we can have sex again.

So he doesn't have a problem with the lack of sex?

Of course the lack of sex bothers him. I think he's better able to step back from that particular issue than me though, and look at everything. He's also much more patient than me.

And his words and jokes indicate that he's fine with that going on around him. And even tho you have a problem with him telling lies you believe him.

Yes. If I ask him, then double and triple-check, then yes. I am only willing to take so much responsibility for his feelings. If he lies to me about this, he's hurting himself. Not that I wouldn't work with him after the fact to make things better/easier/what have you, but I'm not going to feel guilty when I did all I could beforehand to make sure he was comfy. Whereas if he lies/sticks head in sand/whatever you want to call it about finances, it could affect both of us very much. When he pre-emptively decides what I can handle in other regards, that's impeding my independence and progress with managing my anxiety.

It sounded like very little progress had been made if after 6 months and you feel like your marriage is crumbling around you and you haven't had sex with your husband in 9 months. So what you're saying is you were having a bad day and things weren't as bleak as they may have seemed yesterday.

Yes. It felt insurmountable at the time, it's more manageable now.

Is the therapist poly friendly or poly approved. Someone should come up with a seal to stamp on things for just such occasions.

Sorry, forgot to answer this before.

We don't know. We both agreed that none of our issues pertain to poly. Not even in the slightest; it's quite bizarre. We haven't told the counselor because we didn't want to risk being denied service (it's through the wellness program at work) or worse yet, told that poly was the problem when neither of us feels that way.
 
I agree that this isn't a poly issue. My ex and I had similar issues in our mono marriage. Mostly about finances, and my tendency to forget paying bills. We also did not have sex for a really long time before we split up - much longer than I care to admit (and longer than you guys have). But we weren't really looking at these issues together. My husband always made it out to be all my fault, and so I would go to therapy and he wouldn't. And we got nowhere - until he decided he couldn't take it anymore and moved out.

So, this is not a poly thing. This is normal, common relationship stuff. It seems like polyamory and incorporating multiple relationships in your marriage is actually a pretty healthy part of what you two have together. If you keep communicating and looking at it, and find some equilibrium with your anxiety, I'm sure you'll get through it. You both have tons of awareness about balancing and managing all the issues, so I'd say that's a good place to be, even if it gets uncomfortable.
 
I'm fascinated as to how you saw this as a sexist comment. Maybe you too close or something but remove gender...these two people(X,Y) get together and after a yr or so partner X has a dramatic change in sex drive (up swing ) and they decide to open they're relationship. Not long after that partner X finds an additional partner will call (Z) ...during the next block of time Y is struggling with the usual issues with this type of dynamic and perhaps some specific personal issues. After 6 months or so X,Y decide to marry (last Nov) Z was the best man. The Vee moves forward but X and Y are still having intimacy problems and sex has dropped off or stopped .

Feb XY go on their honeymoon and because the relaxed atmosphere, or the bottle of wine, the sound of the ocean or the expectations of what goes on during honeymoons ....they have sex. They come home and go back to their usual routine....sex and intimacy still a problem...in fact it's shut down. A short time later Z moves into X and Y's home which is very exciting for X . It been a dream of X's and now its come true. This also provides X and X's higher libido with unlimited access to get any and all sexual needs met and take the pressure off of Y. Give Y time to sort out or educate himself on his problems. As a result from the honeymoon and for the next 9 months the married person Y is not having sex with spouse (X) or anyone else that we know of.
From a poly forum perspective we would generally hear from Y. Y seems to have sexual and intimate needs and is unable to have them met.


Can you see how in Cindies case she could have been the one complaining about the lack of sex. Nothing to do with a gender biases at all.

I wouldn't disagree that intimacy and sexual problems happen in all types of marriages and dynamics so that's a common problem. What makes this different is the services of the outside contractor Z. It not the problem but damn sure is a factor. If cindies husband had outside romantic relationships and was getting his romantic physical touch, and sexual urges satisfied by several others that wouldn't be factored in the situation....really.

Tp you said you don't believe in primary and secondary labels so what was the point of marrying Indigo? What does marriage mean to you?
 
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I'm fascinated as to how you saw this as a sexist comment. Maybe you too close or something but remove gender...these two people(X,Y) get together and after a yr or so partner X has a dramatic change in sex drive (up swing ) and they decide to open they're relationship. Not long after that partner X finds an additional partner will call (Z) ...during the next block of time Y is struggling with the usual issues with this type of dynamic and perhaps some specific personal issues. After 6 months or so X,Y decide to marry (last Nov) Z was the best man. The Vee moves forward but X and Y are still having intimacy problems and sex has dropped off or stopped .

Feb XY go on their honeymoon and because the relaxed atmosphere, or the bottle of wine, the sound of the ocean or the expectations of what goes on during honeymoons ....they have sex. They come home and go back to their usual routine....sex and intimacy still a problem...in fact it's shut down. A short time later Z moves into X and Y's home which is very exciting for X . It been a dream of X's and now its come true. This also provides X and X's higher libido with unlimited access to get any and all sexual needs met and take the pressure off of Y. Give Y time to sort out or educate himself on his problems. As a result from the honeymoon and for the next 9 months the married person Y is not having sex with spouse (X) or anyone else that we know of.

From a poly forum perspective we would generally hear from Y. Y seems to have sexual and intimate needs and is unable to have them met.


Can you see how in Cindies case she could have been the one complaining about the lack of sex. Nothing to do with a gender biases at all.

I wouldn't disagree that intimacy and sexual problems happen in all types of marriages and dynamics so that's a common problem. What makes this different is the services of the outside contractor Z. It not the problem but damn sure is a factor. If cindies husband had outside romantic relationships and was getting his romantic physical touch, and sexual urges satisfied by several others that wouldn't be factored in the situation....really.

Dinged, I've tried to be patient and respond to your questions and statements, but you're so far off base right now. If you would like to continue posting on my blog, please take the time to read said blog from the beginning (as many of the assumptions you have made in this post and previous posts were addressed long ago), maybe also read Indigo's blog (the link can be found in my signature), and then come back here. If this is not acceptable to you, then kindly remove yourself from the discussion as you are not being helpful.

Indigo is of the same opinion as me.
 
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So, this is not a poly thing. This is normal, common relationship stuff.

Yeah, I'm wondering if these are normal growing pains in a marriage (aside from the sex, which would be less common). Any anecdotes about others' early married (or similarly committed) years would help me gain a better perspective.
 
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Very sorry ....I was just trying to explain the basis for the comment you found to be sexist and it had nothing to do with him or I being men...that's all.

And I'll gladly remove myself from your blog ...no problem.

Dingedheart out.
 
Yeah, I'm wondering if these are normal growing pains in a marriage (aside from the sex, which would be less common). Any anecdotes about others' early married (or similarly committed) years would help me gain a better perspective.
Whoa, it's not the case that sex issues are less common problems in marriages, but probably less people admit to it. I do think financial stuff is usually the #1 thing that married couples argue about.

In my marriage, the biggest problem (seen in hindsight, unfortunately) was that although we were honest with each other and had what we felt was good communication, I think we were really afraid to look at the stuff that terrified us, and so we kept the nuggets at the center of our issues all inside. We brought up whatever was bothering us, from time to time - but didn't do enough in-depth work on it. My husband had been thinking about getting a divorce for three years before telling me, and it came as a complete shock because he kept the struggles he was having a secret. I knew we had issues, but I didn't know they were deal-breakers and never, ever thought he would walk away without trying to work on them together. But he viewed his internal struggle as having done enough. And I was unwilling to look at how afraid I was of his anger.

So, I think the fact that you two are shining a light on the stuff that's just plain difficult to look at is a huge step in making it work. John Welwood talks about applying the "microscope of awareness" in relationships. You may want to read some of his books. Journey of the Heart is a classic and absolutely great!
 
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Whoa, it's not the case that sex issues are less common problems in marriages, but probably less people admit to it.

This.

Spend a little time on any online forum regarding sex, and the majority of the posts will be about people who are having sexual drive incompatibility issues (usually one partner not interested, the other feeling rejected). I used to peruse the boards a few years back because I was doing my sex toy parties and was using information I gleaned from other sources as educational material. I was shocked to see just how often there is a sexual incompatibility that needs to be dealt with.

The fact that you and Indigo do talk about it puts you miles ahead of most people who clam up and refuse to discuss it.
 
Runic Wolf and I have been married for 11 years now and over that time we've gone through the can't get enough of each other phase; the pregnancy hormones kicked my already high libido into overdrive for 8 months; then the post pregnancy depo shots nearly killed it for a few years; getting off the birth control put it right back up there. During that time, Runic Wolf's own libido has gone through changes; between being bipolar and the side effects of the meds; it is sometimes non-existent. Add to that that we are horny at different times throughout the same day and how we each deal with stress - I need sex to destress and he can't have sex while stressed and many would see a recipe for disaster, but we make it work
 
that we are horny at different times throughout the same day and how we each deal with stress

ROFL! My husband is usually horny about an hour before I get off of work, but by the time I get home, take the kid to football practice, finish the homework and get the kids in bed, he's asleep and I'm all alone and horny.

We have gone through the resentments due to someone not taking on responsibilities and the flip side "he/she doesn't like the way I do it and just criticizes my efforts, so why should I bother". Of course this just sets into motion a viscous cycle that's hard to break. I have noticed in my own marriage, that either/both of these mindsets DOES have a significant impact on how attractive we find our partner.

What helped us more recently (after 20 years), was we stopped looking at everything as his job or her job. This is OUR home, OUR lives, OUR kids and everything is OUR responsibility. We certainly have ways to divide and conquer everything that needs to be taken care of, but everyone in our house needed an attitude shift, we had to get back in partnership mode. Cleaning up the kitchen is no longer a "favor" to help mom, it's just a necessary item that needs to be done.
 
Thanks, these have all been helpful. Have to remember we're not snowflakes! ;)

We have a counseling session tonight, and I'm looking forward to it. Hopefully will have some updates to share later.
 
Hopefully the counselling went well.

Since you asked for anecdotes, I'll write a bit about the sexual issues me and Alec have had. I don't know if it'll be of any relevance to your situation, but maybe it'll be of some help. :) There wasn't really a specific point in time when our problems started, rather the change happened gradually over a few years, and I've only been able to see some of the things now that we have started to change things. Basically, we were having less and less sex, and we weren't communicating about it. My libido decreased and I was rarely in the mood, although when he initiated (most often in the evening) I would say that I was tired. I couldn't get myself to say that I don't want sex. Alec started to adjust, and obviously didn't enjoy the constant rejection, so he started to initiate less.

I now know that the problem was that I didn't really understand what I wanted sexually. Also, the lack of communication was a problem, but to be honest I don't really know what I could have communicated without understanding it myself. I thought that my low libido was hormonal or just an consequence of a long relationship.

However, at some point I started to realise some of the causes and some of my own preferences: what I do want, and perhaps more crucially to the situation, what I don't want. We had sort of fallen into a pattern with sex, and that wasn't really satisfying to me anymore. One big thing was that at times (not each time but quite often) I really didn't want to have intercourse, which was included almost always in the pattern. First, I tried to make small changes, but that only had too limited an impact without proper communication (which felt impossibly hard at that time). Then my discomfort grew and I had no option but to have a throughout conversation, laying everything on the table. It's not easy to tell your partner that something you've been happily doing for years, and that your partner really enjoys, (and that most of the society regards to be pretty much the whole point of hetero-sex,) makes you uncomfortable. It wasn't easy for Alec to hear, either, but it didn't take him long to accept it.

After that Big Conversation (which was about 8 months ago, a little while before we started a poly relationship), we made a commitment to communicating. First we agreed to only have intercourse if I initiated. Also, we agreed to break the pattern, and to communicate very clearly each time what it is that we specifically want to do. After the first conversation we had regular discussions about sex both in and outside of bed (which reminds me, it's been a while since the last one, should keep it going even when things are good, as they are now). The aim was to make both of us comfortable with the topic, and also so that there would not only be communication when there are some problems. Also, we did the assignment from the Ethical Slut, where you and your partner together list all sexual stuff you can think of, and then rate them into yes, no, and maybe columns, except we rated them from -5 to 5 instead. I can very much recommend that, by the way, but obviously only when you feel ready. It was unbeliavably helpful to us, and there was a lot of new information to both of us. Also, we have made it a habit that when Alec initiates, I take a small while to think about it, to listen to what, specifically, I want to do, and I tell him that right away. He's usually game for whatever it is. He also says what he wants, and I'm game, too, unless I really don't feel like it. This is really good, and there has also been an increase to the amount of sex we have, because even if, when he initiates, I'm dead tired or don't want to be touched myself, there's usually something I may still feel like. Thus, there's no assumption, what sex must include, but it can be anything both of us are comfortable with.

Sorry to write a novel, hope there's something useful in there. :eek:
 
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