New to everything and a recent boundary/rule breach

Saffryn

New member
Warning: I'm long-winded and green :eek:

About 5 months ago I 'accidentally' ended up in a relationship with a friend of mine. I have been very good friends with him and his wife since they've been together and I knew them both separately before they dated (over 15 years now).

I say accidentally because originally we were talking about a friends with benefits scenario after they decided on poly. As I'm bi we even discussed all three. The poly decision was made because his wife (to reiterate my friend) recently discovered she's gay. They still love each other and they have a child together but they can't be what they need for each other sexually, though sexual activity is still part of the relationship.

Once he and I started spending time alone together, deeper feelings developed rather quickly. I also want to be clear that neither of us thought about each other this way before they were poly. We were both nervous about new partners because he has been with the same woman for over a decade and I recently lost a lot of weight. We felt safe testing the waters with a friend. Then we went and fell in love.

All of this is very open. They each have therapists and they go for couples sessions as well. It was clear that open and honest communication for all of us is very important.

So like I said, this love business was an accident, but it happened and now I'm his girlfriend. His wife has a girlfriend now too and we all get along well.

The issue that is making me seek out help is my own issues with jealousy but also a recent anxiety spike due to some boundaries that we set being breached. To be clear, I dont like that I get jealous at all. I've always loved both of them, and their relationship, before I found out about all their problems behind the scenes. Her coming out and them becoming poly has strengthened them and I'm really happy for that, but now with my involvement there have been some issues for me.

I too am seeking a therapist and have an assessment soon, which I think will be great, but I wanted some insight in the meantime.

So their deep connection isnt the source of my jealousy. While I dont have another relationship, I have a best friend (also friends with them) that I have a similar connection with and I completely understand. What is hard for me is when they are sexually active. Its not very often, especially compared to how often they are with their girlfriends, but it is more than before they became poly. It's hard for me to understand how discovering she was gay made them have hetero sex more often. He says it's about connection, but I can only sympathize and not empathize. He is the only person I've ever slept with that I had a deep connection to.

If this was the only issue i think i would feel more okay, but it became apparent early on that it was more when they had sex that was an issue for me and how i found out.

The first time they had sex after we started dating, i found out from his wife while out three of our girlfriends for his wife's birthday. It had been the night before and explained his 45 minute disappearance in our text conversation.

It was then we set up a rule that if he is going to disappear from talking to me to have sex or sexual activity with her that he should tell me so I dont get shocked later. He agreed and it ended up becoming him telling me before every time they were sexual. Many of these times ended up being earlier in the day when he and I had plans. I realized that was a problem for me. It made me feel like 'sloppy seconds' in the same day and made it more likely that he wouldn't be able to have sex with me that day, or at least not to completion.

I talked to him about this and he agreed. So did his wife. Essentially the rule became if we had a date planned that day he wouldnt be sexual with her as well.

Then about a month ago, through a conversation I wanted to have about the rules of one night stands it came out that he didnt like the 'tell me before' rule because it would interrupt the organic nature of their sex. I agreed and explained my concern had been that it kept happening at times that hurt me (not breaches yet just extensions of the same feelings that led to the rule) but since I never stopped them, finding out after shouldnt matter.

The new boundaries are still no same day, tell me after at any point before I might hear it from her and if they have a pre scheduled date night, he doesnt have to tell me at all, I'll just assume.

Within a week after setting up the new rules, he was sexual with her in the morning before work when we had a date scheduled. He did tell me right away and clarified it wasnt sex but mutual matsterbation. To me there isnt a distinction there simply because it is sexual activity with another person. I told him this and we have had a few conversations dealing with the fact that I'm very hurt. He agrees with my boundary because he understands that he would feel the same way if the roles were reversed. He admits he was wrong and he should have known that just because it wasnt intercourse doesnt mean it wasn't a breach.

I have forgiven him (and her though she and I have yet to talk about it, she knew the boundary too and is my friend not just his wife to me) but my anxiety since then has been through the roof. If we have a good night, I become terrified he will be sexual with her the next morning. It wouldnt even be a breach but it would hurt so soon. We had one night where he didnt finish and I spent two days in a panic waiting for the message that they had been sexual.

At this point its not even another breach I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of their sexual activity in general and I genuinely feel like I was improving in that area before this. It gave me some trust issues not just with his actions but his feelings. It had also made me beyond jealous of them being sexual. I know they have since then, but date nights only and even that has become hard for me to think about.

I would say the sexual activity between them is at most 10% of what is between us. I know I shouldnt feel so threatened especially because they have been together all this time. I've known that and was happy when they chose poly rather than divorce. I cant pinpoint what I'm so afraid of. They are both more connected to their girlfriends (especially physically) at this point than each other but I go in these crazy loops, sure they're having sex or will any minute, even at times that wouldnt go against what I've asked.

I love him. I love us. And I love when all four of us hang out. I dont want to walk away from this, but I dont want to live in this anxiety either. So much of what I've read about poly and jealousy talks about the core marriage that recently opened. I'm looking for advice for the other side.

Thanks to anyone who made it through all that. :)
 
I'm frankly horrified that he's given you the ability to make rules about their sex life.

"Sloppy seconds" is your internal hang up that you need to address intrapersonally, not by legislating when they can't have sexual activity; in short, not his problem to mitigate... Yours.

Sure, you're new, you're navigating dating a person who is in an established relationship, you're trying to control a bunch of things that you think will help.

They won't.

Rules are made to be broken.

It's one thing to properly sign off a conversation, it's another to be explicit about why. It's really not your business when they have sexual intimacy.

You have expressed that you're concerned he won't cum twice in a day. Please do some reading about deprioritising ejaculation. Unless you're TTC?

Sorry I'm blunt. I'm sure nicer people will be along too.
 
I'm sorry you hurt. I don't really get the agreements.

So let me try to repeat back what I understand in my own words to see if I get it the way you mean it.


You are aware they are lovers and they share sex. Much less than sex with their GFs, but still share sex.

You don't like hearing from his wife that they shared sex by "surprise" -- like when it came out at a party and it startled you. She TMIs you.

You don't like hearing from him (before having sex with you) that he shared sex with his wife the same day. Because then you feel like "sloppy seconds."

Agreements:

  • He has to not share sex with his wife before having a date with you.
  • He has to tell you if he had sex with his wife before having sex with you.

Questions

The new boundaries are still no same day, tell me after at any point before I might hear it from her and if they have a pre scheduled date night, he doesnt have to tell me at all, I'll just assume.

Why not just assume all the time? They are lovers. They are gonna share sex sometimes.

  • Since you are the one worried about it, why is the the responsibility on him? Rather than on your shoulders?

Like YOU ask him

  • "Has there been anyone new since the last time you and I shared sex?
  • "Did you and wife share sex today? Then we know on our date we stop at cuddling. Because I don't like feeling like sloppy seconds."

Then YOU own your areas of concern rather than other people.

And the part he in charge of is an agreement to

a) Be Honest

b) Inform you that safer sex practices being maintained.

And the part wife is in charge of is

a) Don't tell me TMI things about your sex partners. (Either her husband or her gf) You aren't dating her. You don't really need to know.


As for why you fear them sharing sex....

Is it because you think if they start getting all into each other again, they will dump all the GFs and that means bye to you? :confused:

Galagirl
 
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I appreciate a certain amount of bluntness and I understand that a lot of people don't agree with that kind of thing in the community. However i would like to be clear that this isnt just imposed on him/them.

As I mentioned, one of the reasons he was okay with the rule is because he would want me to do the same. As in if I end up in another relationship as well he wouldnt want me to be with both of them in the same day either. Also I'm not the only new person in this scenario. All four of us are. I was clear qhen asking for this that if either of them didnt agree to it I would work on finding a way to be okay with it.

Also for further context, not being able to sleep with me was a larger issue in the beginning of the relationship due to nerves. This was exacerbated by the situation which was part of the issue.

I do understand that jealousy is a me issue, but to clarify I'm here for help with insights not just to be told I'm doing it wrong. We all are then as these were agreed upon terms after multiple discussions. I gave ample opportunity to have the request not agreed to and because he wouldnt want me to do the same thing, he agreed.
 
If it's that neither you or BF like "sloppy seconds" -- fair enough. I don't like them either.

What I am getting at is this....

If you already tried to solve that with agreements like...

"Don't have sex with other partner the same day as me."
"You have to tell me when you share sex with wife."

And then discovered in practice it does not work? You are jealous from hearing too much detail? Or anxious or fearful? And he's all "it interupts organic flow with my wife?"

Well... maybe you can keep the "spirit" of the agreement about "no sloppy seconds." And maybe hear less TMI details so as not to trigger you. Just a blanket "I know they are lovers, so I assume they share sex" and not have to know every encounter.

Maybe try a new agreement to solve it in another way both can deal with better.

Maybe "shower before sharing sex with me?" Or "change the sheets."

Maybe brainstorm more ideas together?

And accept that it will take time to hit upon the right mix. Not view it as "breaches" but view it "we need some field testing time cuz we're both new, these agreements are new, etc." A ramp up learning time. YKWIM? It's only been 5 mos here.

Galagirl
 
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Thank you Galagirl for being understanding. Still dealing with the first response from the other poster emotionally.

At this point the boundaries feel fairly solid and comfortable with everyone. I guess what I'm struggling with is how to get back to being okay with them being sexual at all. That's what I'm finding hard now. It made me slightly uncomfortable before and occassionally upset, but that's how we got to this agreement. The 'breach' just threw me. I didnt expect it and since then I'm constantly nervous about their sex. Not even when, but at all. I guess I'm trying to get to the bedrock of where the jealousy comes from so I can deal. That's probably just a therapy issue. Likely this isnt the right place to work that out.
 
In your next discussion about rules, perhaps ask each other to be absolutely explicit about what each rule is safeguarding for everyone. Maybe you'll discover that some of your hangups about certain things can be deconditioned. I'm speaking from experience here. The more you can understand the true source of your rules, the easier it is to realise many aren't necessary, in time.

You use a lot of euphemisms. That's risky communication because "sleep with" can be taken literally as well as figuratively. GalaGirl uses "sharing sex" which is both clear and not crass. Perhaps try that.
 
Hello Saffryn,
Here are some links I have for dealing with jealousy:

It occurs to me that you may have always been a little bit jealous of their sex, or at least, your jealousy started at a zero (scale of one to ten), then increased little by little til now it is just about a ten. Like maybe you feel like, their sex (between the two of them) is more special because of their long history with each other, like it must be pretty awesome if she (his wife) wants it with him even when she is gay. At the root of this ideation, may be the fear that she is going to replace you, possibly coupled with a fear that you don't measure up. I could be completely wrong, I would be okay with it if you completely corrected me. But see if I am onto at least a grain of truth.

Then too, there is always the possibility that at least part of your jealousy is a legitimate warning light, warning you that you are being treated badly (or that you might be receiving bad treatment). Or it can be a warning light that your needs aren't being met, like maybe there's something your boyfriend could do for you that would help you meet another need, it's even possible that there's a need his wife could meet for you, as your friend and your metamour. Whatever is causing your jealousy, you need to dig into it to get at the root of its causes. Hurt? Fear? Frustration? Something else? or something in addition to that? Sometimes jealousy is a complex mix of many underlying causes.

I want to add that it isn't necessarily bad to feel jealous ... no, it does not make you a bad polyamorist if you feel jealous. I think all of us have felt jealous at one time or another, and in one way or another. Jealousy can be nature's way of prodding you into doing some self examination that you need to do. And that can branch out into an examination of your circumstances as well. Jealousy is not fun to feel, but considerable good can come of feeling it. You are on the right track already, you are visiting this forum and wondering out loud what is causing this jealousy, and what can be done about it. Keep in mind also, some of what you are feeling may be envy, which is subtly different.

I hope we can help you analyze it ...
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I guess what I'm struggling with is how to get back to being okay with them being sexual at all. That's what I'm finding hard now. It made me slightly uncomfortable before and occassionally upset, but that's how we got to this agreement. The 'breach' just threw me. I didnt expect it and since then I'm constantly nervous about their sex.

When your friend the wife said something at a party? Ws it because it was TMI in a party setting? Or because she was "poly outing" you rather than letting it be your choice who you tell?

For the sharing sex part, I think your therapist may be able to help more. But if you wanted to try listing you could make statements and see where it ends up.

I quote just to visually block it off. Could do it like outline style.

I) I don't like them sharing sex together.
  • 1) Because I expected that when she came out as lesbian it would be ____
    • A) ?
  • 2)Because I think/worry about _____.
    • A)sloppy seconds
      • 1) sloppy seconds is bad.
        • a)Because I expect....
        • b) Because I think/worry about _____.
        • c)It would be bad / horrible because ____.
    • B) ?
  • 3) It would be bad / horrible because ____.

    • A) ?


II) I don't like TMI sex convo at parties.
  • 1)Because I expect....
  • 2) Because I think/worry about _____.
  • 3)It would be bad / horrible because ____.

What would you put? I only branched a few but you get the idea. For each outline item examine it again. What you expect, what you think, what makes it bad/horrible. Then perhaps like Evie describes you can figure out what is at the bottom of it. What is the rule or agreement supposed to solve/protect/do?

Keep digging til you can't go any more. And don't do it here. Just for yourself and maybe take it to the therapist.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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You have to remember that most of us are speaking from experience. Jealousy is jealousy. It doesn't matter if you are jealous of your married partner or the partner you are married to. Jealousy usually comes from a fear of losing someone. In your case it may just be from societal conditioning.

What do you think is going to happen when they have sex? Why do you need to know when they have sex? How does it really affect anything?

I think that rules can be a form of control and people feel safer when they are in control. I remember coming up with rules that seemed reasonable at the time, but looking back they weren't reasonable at all. I think I was subconsciously trying to limit my partner. I was afraid I might lose her.

I think you went into this with mono thinking on your side. It seems like you assumed you would be his only sexual partner since his wife is "gay". I put that in quotes because she may be bi. When that didn't happen you attempted to control things a bit. Maybe he agreed because he is so enamored with you and is afraid of turning you off to the whole thing. Good old NRE.

My advice is to let go of the control. That actually worked wonders for me. Work on accepting that your love has another lover. There's no reason for you to know when they have sex. Your bf agreed that he would want to know too because he doesn't know any better. This is new to him too.

Of course, there is always the possibility that poly isn't for you. There is no shame in that. Some people just prefer monogamy.

I'm sorry there is no easy fix for jealousy. I think we all had to work through it, but it's not the same for all of us. Kevin posted some good resources.
 
Let me help you a bit. This is his WIFE. He is allowed to fuck her whenever he wants and it has absolutely nothing to do with you whatsoever. It is normal for spouses to have an active sex life and enjoy having sex with each other.

If you have reason to feel that you and your partner would not like sex with the other on a day they've had sex with someone else, then express that and you can navigate around it. If you know you've had sex today with Ben and you're going to see this married guy, avoid sex with the married guy. Yes, he will probably guess why you're doing it but it is better than this creepy way of letting each other dictate when you have sex and reporting sexual encounters.

You are doing it wrong. All of you. This rule you've got is weird and creepy. Just assume all spouses are both having sex and deeply in love. If you cannot handle that, then polyamory isn't the place for you.

The bedrock of your jealousy is that you're used to monogamy and so seeing your partner happy and in love and lust with someone else threatens you. It isn't some covert issue buried deep down. It's just jealousy. You probably went into this assuming that you're needed because she is substandard and now you've found out otherwise.

Scrap the rule altogether. No more knowing who has sex when. Your relationship with either improve or you'll know poly isnt for you.

Oh and he replies to texts as and when he can. If it takes 2 hours or 2 days to reply, that's life. People are busy. He needs to stop this thing where if he "disappears" for 45 minutes, you feel like you're owed something. Stop with the control. Eventually, he will get sick of it and cut you off. People rarely leave their spouse when a relationship becomes obstructive or annoying.
 
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Oh and he replies to texts as and when he can. If it takes 2 hours or 2 days to reply, that's life. People are busy. He needs to stop this thing where if he "disappears" for 45 minutes, you feel like you're owed something. Stop with the control. Eventually, he will get sick of it and cut you off. People rarely leave their spouse when a relationship becomes obstructive or annoying.

This! It's maybe a little bit more harsh than I would ever say it but this is really important. I completely agree with the others that this is just jealousy and you need to break it down and understand why you're jealous. But stuff like this, him disappearing for a bit and you immediately jumping to conclusions that he must be off having sex is not healthy!

Just like in a mono relationship, the world does not end when your partner doesn't text you back immediately. You are a separate person from your partner, and when they don't text back you can divert your attention onto something else you have to do like chores, or reading, or some other activity that you can do now you've stopped having a conversation.

Do you hold your friends to the same regard and get upset they might be talking to other friends/doing another activity instead of texting you? of course you don't, so why are you doing it for a partner? People are always going to step away from technology to do things, and if you're worried that him not texting you back immediately means he's having sex with his wife then you are going to be an anxious mess for your entire life.

I mean this all kindly and am sorry if this have come across as harsh, but I've seen so many people make mistakes like this, we all have on here and we're just trying to help you see a perspective outside of your own :)
 
I agree with what everyone has said above. It's an interesting subject. But I am very sorry your anxiety has gone through the roof, as you focus on this one area of your new romantic relationship with an old friend.

You also sound new to dating in general. Congrats on your weight loss! That's a big accomplishment. Hopefully you'll come to understand that a good man will also appreciate your healthy weight loss, and not mind the loose skin, will still think you're beautiful and strong, and, by the way, love your for your mind and soul, not just your body.

I'm pansexual. That is, I'm attracted to cis men, cis women, trans men, trans women, and gender non-conforming people. I'm comfortable with my pansexuality.

I'm going to call your male partner Jake and your female friend Martha. So, Martha was married to Jake for 10 years, but recently came out as "gay." However, getting in touch with her love for women has taken a load off her mind and heart, and now that she's happily exploring that, her desire for her husband has paradoxically increased.

The resurgence of emotional intimacy and sex in a newly poly long term marriage is rather common. Once we are true to ourselves and honest with our partner, intimacy often increases, out of happiness at being our authentic selves. In this case, no matter what Martha says, I'd (perhaps discreetly, in my head) think of her as bisexual. Lesbians are usually repulsed by male genitalia and bodies. They might appreciate them aesthetically, but they do NOT desire them sexually.

Anyway. I do agree with above posters who are saying that you thought you'd be Jake's only sex partner, monogamous sex, even though you understood Jake and Martha still "loved" each other. This came as a shock. Hopefully, once you air this out, talk about it here, and with a therapist, you'll come to terms with it.

Next topic, "sloppy seconds." That's a gross term, and not sex positive. We are a sex positive board. I prefer to call it "double dipping." Many poly people have done this, had sex with 2 partners in one day. I have done it. And I kinda love it. I have a very high sex drive. Having sex twice in one day is fantastic for me, whether it's with the same person or two different people. I'm not saying you're "wrong" to not want this, but it's something that happens a lot in poly. It would be helpful to let go of this hangup.

You seem to be saying you get 90% of Jake's sex. Martha gets it a lot less frequently. So, 10% of the time you have sex with Adam, he might have had sex with Martha earlier in the day. He can still get erect, but can't ejaculate?

I think it's fun to have a guy cum. But cumming myself is more important to me. I have had many lovers over the years. Guys over 40 sometime suffer from ED, or, if they can get hard, they can't cum regularly. I had one bf with bipolar and anxiety issues who loved sex with me, and was really great at it, but NEVER came! Not once in the whole time we were together. Yet, we had great fun.

So, my advice is, if possible, try to be glad he can get hard at all, and try not to put so much emphasis on him "completing" the act. Lots of people, women included, can really enjoy sex without having it end in an orgasm. It's never fair to judge someone and get angry at them, if they can't, or don't want to, cum.
 
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