Questions about a long lasting poly relationship

charlesgarnier

New member
I am married for 20 years with Anna. I had in the past two relations with other women, mainly for sex, but they didn’t last. Three years ago, I met another woman, Chris, and fell in love with her. She is married and has one child. After a few months, she told the truth to her husband. So do I a few months later, after my wife had discovered messages on my phone. Both our husband and wife didn’t accept the situation. Anna threatened me about divorce, but also tried to understand the situation. So did Chris’ husband. He decided to meet other women and get involved in a relationship with a woman, without love. Anna decided also to meet other men and has several relationships, also without love. So it seems that everybody has become poly, but that’s not that simple.
- Anna is deeply hurt by having lost her exclusiveness on me. She says she could accept me having other sexual relationships, but can’t accept me being in love with somebody else. She considers her own relationships as a way of enduring the situation without too much suffering.
- Chris’ husband considers that his own relationship is only a temporary solution. He wants Chris back in a “normal” situation, which means a mono relationship. He says he bears the situation only because he is convinced it won’t last.
- We have a passionate relationship with Chris. As we work together, we can meet several times a week. We send each other a lot of sms. Our marriages are happy, we love our spouse and husband, so we both decided to find another path than both divorcing to get together. We have somehow succeeded, but it has been difficult for us to give up the idea of living together, and it is still difficult to give it up.
I have a few questions.
- Do you think that, with time, Anna and Chris’ husband could accept the situation and become happy with it ?
- Chris and I consider our relationship as very strong, with attachment and a notion of engagement. Do you think it is possible to have a long-time lasting relation with another person, with that high frequency ?
- Chris and I are both hesitating. Do we have find a very intelligent way of dealing with our love, allowing us to make it compatible with our weddings, or are we lying to ourselves, because our main couples can only weaken ? Or are we missing the main love of both our lives by not being courageous enough, by compromising ?
- Anna and I are wondering. Are we going to have an open marriage ? Are we going to lost each other ? Is it going to make us stronger ?

I know there is not only one solution, but I would appreciate your advices.
 
Our marriages are happy, we love our spouse and husband, so we both decided to find another path than both divorcing to get together. We have somehow succeeded...

Both our husband and wife didn’t accept the situation.


Anna threatened me about divorce,

Chris’ husband.... decided to meet other women and get involved in a relationship with a woman, without love.

Anna decided also to meet other men and has several relationships, also without love.

- Anna is deeply hurt by having lost her exclusiveness on me. She says she could accept me having other sexual relationships, but can’t accept me being in love with somebody else. She considers her own relationships as a way of enduring the situation without too much suffering.

Chris’ husband considers that his own relationship is only a temporary solution. He wants Chris back in a “normal” situation, which means a mono relationship. He says he bears the situation only because he is convinced it won’t last.

No advice. Just saying, these do not sound like happy marriages to me. Anna and Chris's husband are clearly not happy.

You have indeed succeeded at being together, but not at being together in a happy poly situation.

With all due respect, I personally wouldn't call this a poly situation at all. I'd call it a We got caught cheating and our spouses have decided to have payback affairs, to have sex without love, which is not really in their nature, to try to make themselves okay with this and make it hurt less so they don't have to face the scary prospect of divorce situation.

:(
 
I agree with everything WhatHappened said. I have a more blunt way to say it. You have a mess. The most courageous and loving thing you can do is go back to your wife exclusively, and work things out as best you can through honesty and open communication with her. Once you know what kind of relationship that gives you WITH HER, decide WITH HER what BOTH of you want from there. Dishonesty is a foundation for nothing.
 
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I third. I apologize if this is Hard to Hear. But you asked, so...

You are putting spouses through hell from your own selfish-osity! If you really love them, why aren't you setting them free? Rather than making then endure this? Like emotional hostages. Ugh.

I don't know what your mistress will do about her husband. I do not know why you are content to be in relationship with a known cheater. That's a whole OTHER can of worms you have to come to terms with in your Soul. I do not envy you this.

But I will assume positive intent here -- that in posting about your situation you are seeking advice for what to do about YOUR WIFE and how to do right by her and get back into right relationship to her.

I would talk to her and apologize for the crap. You made a vow to your wife FIRST. So finish that contract with her first. Tie up loose ends and stop letting them dangle!

Tell Wife you are sorry you broke the contract. Tell her you have stopped contact with the Mistress for the next 30 days to create Safe Emotional Space for just you and the Wife to determine what is next. (Tell Mistress you what you are trying to do.)

If you find you love your wife and want to make it work there, accept it may come at the price of your Mistress.
If you find you do not want to live without the Mistress, state this to the Wife. Accept that it may come at the price of your Wife.
If you find neither wants anything to do with you any more -- accept that your unethical behavior has earned you this and it came at a price of both gone.

Sit and think what you WANT to have and say it. NOW. Up front! Like you should have from the start -- HONEST! Get in right relationship to YOURSELF first, then get in right relationship to the Wife. If you cannot live with mistress, don't put wife in that position again -- where you will be tempted to cheat on her again. Just set her free and be HONEST. Do not make new promises you cannot keep.

Wife might decide to try honest poly with you, but NOT with the Mistress in the picture. Then what?
Wife might decide she wants NOTHING poly. Then what?
Wife might decide she's over you. And wants no part of you? Then what?

Face your realities for once. Get a counselor on the horn if you need one to navigate this hard conversation. But it must be had. Stop putting it off.

Then ask the Hard Questions:

Do you even want to be with me after I was so awful to you breaking our contract?
Can you ever see this working out so I can be with you both?

If not, I accept I was a downright fool and a cheater, and the price is losing you. I set you free.

If you want a divorce, I will not contest and we can call a mediator so we can split up as amicably as possible so I can help you start your new life on solid footing. I do want to help. If you let me I still want to be your friend.

If you still want to be together and could see yourself in a place where you could accept an HONEST polyamorous situation, please tell me your wants, needs, and limits. We can get a counselor to help us. I will do my best to regain and uphold your trust this time and not fuck up again. If I do, what would your consequences be? Let's make a new contract that considers BOTH of us and try to begin with a clean slate.

I beg you for forgiveness and the opportunity to make amends in some way -- either in a clean divorce where we can part as friends. Or a clean new contract where we can be in harmonious polyship. But I understand if you do not want to grant either. You do not have to. I have earned this through my foolish behavior. I will own it. I do not deserve a clean anything when I was so dirty to you.

But if the only ethical answer is now facing a messy divorce, then I own I have brought this down on us. I am so sorry. I've been a bad husband to you. I feel sorrow and regret. It will haunt me forever.

But we must move it forward. After doing this to you and us with my thoughtlessness? I cannot ask you to give up your future life and future happiness on my foolishness. I must set you free to decide what it is to be.

Will you think over 30 days and then give me an answer?

And if she goes ballistic -- suck it up. For 30 days. Then do the right thing at last. Whatever it is you and she decide to do TOGETHER that is best -- even if the best is dissolve the marriage.

You don't have to suck up abuse -- but dude. This is your wife and you caused her great pain. Sucking it up and letting her have space emotional space to rant and rave and process for a mere 30 days? And waiting patiently for her to clear out any emotional flooding and make a huge life decision? Her final answer on this double jeopardy question?

You get off light. If you were married to me you would have been out the door at the onset. That's a 1 strike lie of omission in my universe! She's probably kinder than me. Sigh.

I hope you all find peace and reach a better place. This is just shit. Get a shovel, start moving it out. None of you deserves to live in shit. But only you all can clean it up. :(

I feel sorry for you and your wife. I hope you all have learned something in this disaster and can move it forward toward becoming your better, ethical selves. Get back in right relationship with your wife -- be it trying to rebuild the marriage (as an ETHICAL monoship or ETHICAL polyship) or trying to move through a clean divorce.

But move it forward for god's sake. Enough with the caca!

Good Luck.
GG
 
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Not that simple

Thank you for your advices. Here are some more details and some remarks.

First of all, I have not decided one day to become poly. I was (and so was my mistress) mono. I didn’t exclude sexual relationship with other women (it occurred once), but, as my marriage was happy and I loved my wife, I didn’t even think I could fall in love with a third person.

There have been two scratches in my marriage contract. Fist of all, because it was not clear that I could have an affair (we never had a true discussion about this). By having an affair, I was misdoing. Second scratch : I waited several month to tell the truth and I was “helped” by an event, even if could have continue to hide the situation. To be sincere, I don’t think that when there is cheating, the cheater is solely guilty. And if I concealed the truth, it was partly to preserve Anna from being taken in the tornado when I didn’t know where I was myself. I am still not convinced I should have dump the problem I have created on her, without trying to treat it myself. When she learnt the truth, I was able to say I wanted to stay with her, and I think that’s more easy to hear than somebody dealing with a growing passion and not knowing where it will go.

But after my confession, I didn’t even try to find excuses. I apologized to my wife. Of course, I would not have opposed a divorce. From this point, there is no more cheating. Everybody tell the truth to everybody.

I told Anna once that I would quit Chris, as she was too much suffering. She told me not to do so, which was demonstrating true love. She don’t ask me to quit Chris, neither Chris’s husband ask her to quit him. They understand that would not be a good solution.

Chris’s husband and Anna are not happy, but they are not unhappy. If they were really unhappy, they would divorce, wouldn’t they?

I can’t quit neither Anna nor Chris. They are as my two arms, I can’t imagine cutting one.

Of course it is clear for Anna and I that we have to build a new contract. It would be simple if I could quit Chris, because they would be a clear basis. But I can’t.

Neither Chris nor I have decided to be passionately in love with each other. We try to deal with it.
 
Sigh. How is your spiritual health in all this? Seek counseling please. A doctor, minister -- whatever and whoever it is that can help you get back in right relationship with YOURSELF and then your WIFE. You sound all kinds of messed up, dude.

Take a stand on the side of DOING RIGHT. Stop being so... nambypamby. It does not suit you. It does not flatter you.

You may not want to Hear what I write below. It is hard and straight up. Do with it what you will.

To be sincere, I don’t think that when there is cheating, the cheater is solely guilty.

No. Your cheating partner has aided you to cheat. It takes two to tango.
And if I concealed the truth, it was partly to preserve Anna from being taken in the tornado when I didn’t know where I was myself.

No. It was to not have to deal with being honest to your wife from the get go. Let's call it what it is. Too late now for more BS.

If you wanted to preserve your wife from pain, you would not cheat. You would tell her you wanted another lover before you opened your pants. And get her blessing first. But that was too hard for you. And you wanted your jollies. So off you went for the third time into extramarital affairs.

I am still not convinced I should have dump the problem I have created on her, without trying to treat it myself.

You are doing lies of omission by holding back information that affects Anna. Is this a good way to treat a person you "love" in your ethical code? You are messed up. You wanted to solve it on your own so you could alleviate your guilt in having done it to begin with and/or to avoid feeling yucky if Anna should find out.

When she learnt the truth, I was able to say I wanted to stay with her, and I think that’s more easy to hear than somebody dealing with a growing passion and not knowing where it will go.

And you continue to lie. After she learns the truth, months later, after enduring TWO OTHER AFFAIRS OF YOURS IN THE PAST... you take the easy platitude? "Oh, I still want to stay with you, honey! I love you!"

You could have said "I do not know where this is going. I am confused. We probably need a marriage counselor." That is more honest. Even "I want to sleep around and I want you around to do my laundry" is more honest.

Saying "I love you, I want to stay with you!" when you go off into affairs and do not stay and exhibit less than loving behavior by cheating and lying? What is THAT?

Second scratch : I waited several month to tell the truth and I was “helped” by an event, even if could have continue to hide the situation.

But after my confession, I didn’t even try to find excuses. I apologized to my wife. Of course, I would not have opposed a divorce. From this point, there is no more cheating. Everybody tell the truth to everybody.

You do not sound like you confessed. Sounds like you were caught.

I would not be inclined to believe you, given your affairs record that there would not be more cheating and it would be truth from here on out. You have not been a person of your word.

And you did not mention HOW Anna is to get a divorce from you. Do you share equal finances? You do not mention this. Saying you would not oppose a divorce is not seeking a lawyer to draw up papers that puts all common property half and half equally. Deeds, not creeds. Because your word, sir, is not worth much right now.

I hope you are at least doing your share of chores around the house, making your own meals, and doing your own laundry and being a GOOD ROOMMATE. Because you have not been a good husband.

I told Anna once that I would quit Chris, as she was too much suffering. She told me not to do so, which was demonstrating true love. She don’t ask me to quit Chris, neither Chris’s husband ask her to quit him. They understand that would not be a good solution.

Or they are in shock still. Emotional flooding making them numb and/or depressed/not care about anything. Or figure once a cheater, always a cheater. Why bother to hope?

Chris’s husband and Anna are not happy, but they are not unhappy. If they were really unhappy, they would divorce, wouldn’t they?

Sounds like shock/gone numb to me. That can be depression. Have you taken your wife to the doctor? Are you actually looking out for her or just expecting her to lump it here?

You just state they are NOT HAPPY. Being able to leave and divorce well is DIFFERENT than being happy.

There's finances, child custody -- a lot to disband. Sometimes people stay in unhappy marriages for a while because they are just stuck there for now. I do not know what Anna does for a living or if she's a stay-at-home mom. But if she makes less than you or makes NO income at all because she always worked in the home in this partnership? Her career skills aren't super sharp so she can get a new job asap? That pays well enough to set her up in her new post divorce life?

Ah. Well. Her choices then are put up with YOU the cheating spouse and have familiar roof over her head at the standard of living she's used to. Or move to a hinky apartment struggling to get a job and all that. Or some strange women's shelter if you are a dick about the divorce and play "starve the wife" and draw out the process to drain her meager funding. Welcome to reality. Sure -- stay with the mistress and get sex over there. Cuz wife don't want none from you! Ew.

Given that you cheated before -- do you ever wonder WHY she stays? Is it easier to tell yourself she truly loves you than to tell yourself you are not playing fair?

I don't want to know the details of your marriage or personal life. But consider -- IS your shared wealth half in Anna's name already? If it isn't then it isn't actually a level playing field financially is it? There is no denying that that plays into how a person would respond to all this crap. It matters. People want to know where their next meal is coming from.

Make it so. See a lawyer, banker, whatever. Transfer the funds so it is half and half. Make it so she is truly free to speak without hardship and free to walk if she wants to walk away.

Then ask her if she wants to still stick around to make it work. Still be in this marriage. HONESTLY. From equal footing.

If you playground that in your head and come to realize she might actually choose to LEAVE? That is the price you pay for having been dishonest.

If she wants to stay ANYWAY? When she is truly free to go? That's a whole lot different than staying because she isn't free to go.

Mere staying does not mean she is happy staying. And her mere staying does not mean she's not unhappy.

Set the woman truly free and THEN ask her to stay. You and your mistress are being emotionally and mentally cruel to these spouses.

If Anna is having a payback affair? Or seeking to leave you through the support of another man so she doesn't have to linger in Divorcee Poverty? Good on her. You have given her very little to work with that is CLEAN.

Neither Chris nor I have decided to be passionately in love with each other. We try to deal with it.

Damn. After all THAT? Sheesh! How insulting to the wife. Make wife's life hell over a lukewarm affair? And you still won't break it off with the Mistress?

I think you all sound shirky. Nobody wants to own anything here. I don't blame the victim spouses who have been thrust into numbness by wayward spouses. But you and Chris are behaving very, very poorly.

What a mess. Sigh. I hope you can man up and find your way and get back into right relationship with all your people as you should be and become a man of his word one day.

best wishes,

GalaGirl
 
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charles,

I just read what GalaGirl wrote. I couldn't have said it any better, even if I spent the next hour trying to. I will add my own short, blunt 2 cents. You lied, cheated and betrayed your wife. By doing that you created a mess. Now, you're complaining about that mess, and trying really hard to find a way to make yourself look like the victim of that mess.

Yes it is that simple to fix. You just don't want to do it. You're trying to say the cheating you did is not as bad as it sounds because your wife now says go ahead and be with Chris. That sounds much better to you than fixing this the right way. It sounds to me like you are not interested at all in doing the right thing. I hope you change your mind.
 
Neither Chris nor I have decided to be passionately in love with each other. We try to deal with it.
Damn. After all THAT? Sheesh! How insulting to the wife. Make wife's life hell over a lukewarm affair? And you still won't break it off with the Mistress?
Gala, I took his comment to mean that he and his mistress didn't ask to or just decide to fall in love; it just happened, and now they are very passionately in love [he did say they dream of living together]. So now they deal with the consequences.
 
First of all, I have not decided one day to become poly. I was (and so was my mistress) mono. I didn’t exclude sexual relationship with other women (it occurred once), but, as my marriage was happy and I loved my wife, I didn’t even think I could fall in love with a third person.
What are you saying here, that you've had sex outside of your marriage prior to Anna?

To be sincere, I don’t think that when there is cheating, the cheater is solely guilty. And if I concealed the truth, it was partly to preserve Anna from being taken in the tornado when I didn’t know where I was myself.
Most people are not going to buy the "I cheated and then lied to her about it to protect her, what a great guy am I," routine.


I am still not convinced I should have dump the problem I have created on her, without trying to treat it myself.
You didn't dump it on her. You got caught.


I told Anna once that I would quit Chris, as she was too much suffering. She told me not to do so, which was demonstrating true love. She don’t ask me to quit Chris, neither Chris’s husband ask her to quit him. They understand that would not be a good solution.
Going by the other things you've said, I'd guess that if she really told you to continue seeing your mistress, that there's more to the story. I, for example, got to the point with my ex-husband's lies, that I would have told him to go right ahead and continue what he was doing, because at least that way I knew, because I could guarantee he'd continue doing something behind my back anyway. I can see myself saying such a thing in those days, but not because it was perfectly okay.

Chris’s husband and Anna are not happy, but they are not unhappy. If they were really unhappy, they would divorce, wouldn’t they?
As GalaGirl said, there are lots of reasons people remain married, other than that they're deliriously happy living with a cheater who lies to them. (Hard to believe, but true--I can assure you I stayed a long time with a lying cheater for exactly the reasons GG mentioned.

I can’t quit neither Anna nor Chris. They are as my two arms, I can’t imagine cutting one.
Aww, that's really beautiful and poetic. That's so sweet.

It's also a load of bullcrap.

Yes, you can quit one of them.

It would be simple if I could quit Chris, because they would be a clear basis. But I can’t.
Excuse me repeating myself, but yes you can. We are in control of our actions.

Neither Chris nor I have decided to be passionately in love with each other. We try to deal with it.
I think I misread this the first time. You don't mean it's lukewarm you're pulling the old, "We can't help ourselves, we never decided to be in lurve, we're victims of an unstoppable tide of passion," aren't you?

You know, we all make choices in life. I'm quite capable of being very much in love with someone and yet choosing not to call him, not to get in the car and drive somewhere to meet him, not to take off my clothes with him, not to have sex with him. I can choose to go to a movie with a female friend, to clean my kitchen, to remind myself that sending special texts and trading kisses and having sex with a married man behind his wife's back is very, very hurtful to another woman, to another human being, to his children if he has any, to his marriage. I can choose to walk by his desk at work and ignore him.

Need I go on?

We have control. We choose our actions.

Please...re-read GalaGirl's post, maybe a dozen or three dozen times a day. It can only help.
 
nycindie said:
Gala, I took his comment to mean that he and his mistress didn't ask to or just decide to fall in love; it just happened, and now they are very passionately in love [he did say they dream of living together]. So now they deal with the consequences.

Maybe I misunderstood that part. I'm not sure.

It keeps boiling down to this though -- now that all is said and done? Choose to behave more ethically to the persons involved, please!

If they could not help falling in love? Fine. I'll buy that. Feelings just happen. You feel what you feel when you feel it. Rain is rain. Sun is sun. Emotion is emotion. We cannot choose how we feel. We can only choose how we behave in response to those feelings. REACT in the heat of the moment or ACT WITH INTENTION.

If he fell in love with Chris without looking for it? Fair enough. Then he chose to do what about it? Tell the wife he's fallen in love with some lady named Chris out of the blue? I do that all the time. I tell my DH that. And he laughs and yanks my chain about my latest crush. So? No big all around. I am still coloring inside the lines of my agreement with my spouse.

Charles did not inform his wife. He chose to have an affair behind his wife's back. Not ethical. Not cool. They have another kind of agreement in place -- a monogamous marriage. He colored outside the lines in sleeping with Chris.

In response to THAT? Chose to not own it til he got caught months later. Shirky.

In response to THAT? Chose to not set wife truly free. If loves Chris and wants to live with her -- not moving that forward honorably either in not setting wife free. Both ladies left in limbo. More shirky. Because he doesn't want to have to choose between them because that's easier on him. Never mind what may be easier on THEM. Or hell, Chris's Husband.

There are real people involved here with real feelings, and Charles is shooshing things under the rug some more. To choose not to decide is still making a choice. Sometimes to wait and see what new information may be revealed so you can make a better informed decision. Sometimes to play Mr Avoidy. I call this Avoidy. Very weak on ethics. Still treating the loved ones with less than loving behavior.

Charles, if you are still reading I really do hope you CHOOSE to behave more ethically than this. It won't be fun, but at least it will be more ethical than you have been.

GG
 
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I don?t want to spend time to explain why I cheated Anna, to what point I consider it can be excused and to what point I'm guilty. I agree I betrayed her in some way, and even if I explain how and why, you have the right to judge me. Nobody should ever cheat, many do, many judge. That's life. We should have talk more deeply of our needs, of how to behave if something occurs, I have regrets about that. I know some would divorce and throw up a wonderful marriage and a family for one single cheating, Anna and I are not this kind of person, I am rather proud of that. Anyway, I need her to forgive me, and that was the first step of our rebuilding. Of course Anna can divorce in good material conditions, I will help her to. Divorcing is never neutral, but she can do that if she wants. She?s courageous enough to divorce anyway if she finds it the best solution and I do not want her to stay with me for bad reasons.

To be clear, you don't help me by saying I had an unethical behavior. I know that, my only issue is what to do next.

I think you don't understand how strongly I fell in love with Chris. I have never felt something like that. I think of her almost every single minute. We share an average of one sms every 20 minutes since three years. Not leaving together is a terrible decision.

I think you don't understand how strongly I love Anna. We grew up together, she is my complement. We trust each other, we need each other, we are proud of each other. She is a wonderful woman, I am proud of being married to her.

I could have quit Anna to Chris. Some of you, finding a passionate love, would have done that, I'm sure. It was not my choice, neither was it Chris'one.

I could have quit Chris. I would have lived the rest of my life thinking perhaps I had lost the love of my life. I think Anna and Chris' husband understood that and don't think it is easy rebuilding a happy marriage on a background of a frustrated passion. I would have had the same reasonment the same for Anna.

After months of discussion, initial cheating is becoming to be beyond us. From the moment everybody knows everything, there is no more cheating, that?s clear for me. The situation is transparent. Everybody can afford to leave (even on the material point of view), so not leaving is a choice. Marriage is not a prison. Everybody is free.

I know I can quit Anna and Chris, look for somebody new by saying "hello now I know I?m poly, I propose you an ethical agreement" But I don't find it a good solution. I have to do with the real situation.

Anna is not sure to be mono. She is questioning about that. We are questioning. So do Chris and I. I exclude nothing. I just look for a path for happiness for me and for those I love. I think strongly that there is a better way than extreme grief and suffering.
 
Sounds like everyone is settling. Anna and the other husband because it not painful enough to leave. Not happy ....tolerating it. How many years of being Unhappy spouses before resentment builds and something snaps.


You and Chris are settling for a fraction of a relationship you'd like to have.


All the long term plans you've made together as a couple how do they look today?

Do you a get together, all 4 and talk?
 
I hear your side of the story. But I do not see Anna or Chris or Chris Husband on here to share their side. We only hear YOUR PERCEPTION of their side.

I get that you feel strongly about both. I get that you are all suffering.

You don't seem to get that what you THINK they feel or say to you -- may not be entire truthiness any more because they are damaged people. You seem happier thinking all is rosier than it very well may be. So be it. You travel blind then.

To be clear, you don't help me by saying I had an unethical behavior. I know that, my only issue is what to do next.

It is hard to give you advice, because you do not state what you WANT in clear terms.

You seem to want absolution. Nobody can give you that. Not even Anna. You just have to bear it and let it fade down in time to a tolerable level.

You seem to WANT an ethical polyship with Anna and Chris in some kind of "V" with the husband's ok. But you hardly mention him so who knows if you even want him in the picture somewhere.

If this is what you want? Then you just ask them all if they can give it.

I am not getting clearly that this conversation has happened. If it hasn't -- get on with it then!

1) You apologize AND make amends for the mess making. (You witter, but do not clearly state -- YES! I have apologized to Anna! I am making ammends by ....)

2) You GIVE (not merely offer) Anna a full half of funds in her name to make SURE she is speaking freely when she decides to stay in it or not. If nothing else, if you love her as much as you say you do? You ensure she is protected financially -- even from YOU! (You witter about her being fine materially -- but you do not clearly state -- YES! She has half of all our stuff in her name only! She could leave me any time she wants with her checkbook!)

3) You ask ALL FOUR if they can enter into ethical polyship with you. So the ladies are in a relationship with you in a "V" configuration and the husband is your metamour. (You witter, but you do not clearly state -- YES! We have had this conversation to take everyone's temperature on that possibility. The results of the conversation are : Charles wants yes. Anna wants... Chris wants.... Chris Husband wants...)

4) If one or all say NO, then you have to do the honorable, ethical thing and break up. Either into the 2 original marriages or 4 singles. END the previous contracts with all these people in as good a way possible in the circumstances.

Then if some of you want to start OVER together, it is from a clean place with a new contract.

(You witter, and seem to be unhappy thinking this may have to be on the table -- a full break up. Get over it. It is on the table if you wish to be ethical. If you do not wish to be ethical, CLEARLY STATE SO. )

4)If yes, all are willing... Then you get a counselor to help you sort out what your rights and responsibilities to each other will be in the new framework so everyone's needs are met for mental health safety, emotional health safety, physical health safety, and spiritual health safety. What are your agreements for how to treat each other so you are in right relationship to one another and not damaging each other any more now or in future?

You need a pro because you guys are no good at creating your own agreements and keeping to them. There are also seriously hurt feelings, hurt people, and things that need airing out and processing -- that requires a pro. You will all go through the stages of grief and that needs to be addressed appropriately so you are not hurling hurts at each other and digging yourselves deeper into the hole. That neutral, objective professional is not you even if you were a counselor by trade. Own this, and get counselor(s).

4) You ask ALL FOUR for the wants, needs, and limits in such an arrangement. Speak up now, clearly, from the heart. Everyone has the right to clear communication and for this to ever work despite all this mess -- people have to start Speaking Their Truth. If even at a whisper. SPIT IT OUT. If all want an ethical polyship, then you all spend time learning about poly. www.morethantwo.com and serolynne are free places online to start. Get the books and other resources you need on ethical poly, love theory, communication skills, relationship kills, and all the rest that you may need.

5) If other professionals are required get them -- bankers, lawyers, babysitters, a yard guy. Whoever you need in your transition time of "Married Cheating Partners and Their Sad Spouses ----> A happy polyship of 4 people in a "V" arrangement."

To help you draw up agreements, papers, keep the kids or tend the homes to create the TIME you need to be a foursome working toward the common goal of a happier, more harmonious polyship. Time will not fall out of the sky. You will have to MAKE THE TIME.

I would strongly suggest you ALL maintain 4 separate income tracks. Lumping everything together at this stage in a rocky polyship is infinitely FOOLISH. Everyone should have their income track so if they have to walk away -- THEY CAN WALK IMMEDIATELY. Even YOU don't need Anna flipping a gasket and taking all your shared stuff you hold jointly and leaving you homeless.

Everyone have their own separate. That goes a long way to easing some of the mental health strain of Maslow's needs on the most bottom level -- the physiological needs of food, water, shelter.

You guys hit rock bottom and need to climb back up.

6) You try the new Experiment on for a Time. A year? Don't leave it open. Pick a time limit for the Experiment to run all can agree to. Shake out the bugs and see if this is going to be a long term runner or not.

7) At the end of a year, you re-evaluate where you are all at. Who is still in? Who needs out?

There. A possible map. It's pretty clear to me what needs doing if this is what you really want.

So get on with it, man!

Be ethical, set things to right, learn to be a man of your word. Talk to your people!

GL!
GalaGirl
 
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What is sms? Texting? You said you and Chris text each other, on average, every 20 mins? That is 3 times an hour, 24 hrs a day? Since one must work and sleep, there must have been time when Anna observed you texting Chris for an hour or two at a time when you were in the same room, I would think. Smiling, giggling in response to Chris' texts... perhaps becoming sexually aroused.

And that went on for several months before she finally checked your phone and saw you were having an affair.

Now, over 2 1/2 years have gone by since you were caught cheating. You love Chris, you love Anna. Anna and Chris' husband have had soulless loveless affairs, now that the marriages are considered "open." They are unhappy. You say Chris' husband is just hanging in waiting for his wife to get over her lover and come back to him. But 3 years later, she's still with you.

Everyone just seems to be waiting for someone else to make a move. Will Anna leave you? Will Chris' husband leave her? Will Chris leave her husband and move in with you?

Someone better shit or get off the pot. Y'all are in a sad state of limbo.
 
Polyamory

It's strange to see so many people so full of certitudes. Cheating is very wrong, nobody ethical would do that in any citconstances, if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.

I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.
 
I know some would divorce and throw up a wonderful marriage and a family for one single cheating, Anna and I are not this kind of person, I am rather proud of that.
Anna is not that kind of person, and possibly for the very practical reasons GG has named. "One single cheating" is the kind of dismissive thing that leaves me feeling you don't really own up to the seriousness of this. "One single cheating" is not a little thing, this isn't like a kid growing up who has multiple chances to learn, and, oops, one little dish got broken, no biggie. Cheating, to the one who was cheated on, is devastating. The lying that almost invariably goes with it messes with the mind. It's called gaslighting. It leaves the cheat-ee questioning their own mental stability at times as they try to match up what they see with the words of one they trust to tell them the truth.

"One single cheating" often leaves the cheat-ee questioning their self-worth, and deep in depression and self-loathing and hatred as they see how blatantly they could be disregarded and disrespected and lied to even by the one person who is supposed to love and cherish them most in the world.

I think among the steps you need to take IF YOU REALLY WANT SOMETHING SOLID TO DO TO HELP THIS MARRIAGE is take the time to really GET how it feels to be cheated on, the very depths to which it can take the cheat-ee. As long as you regard it as 'one single cheating,' you will not fully grasp what Anna is going through, and that means you will never be able to offer her the genuine remorse people need to fully recover from being cheated on and lied to.



I think you don't understand how strongly I fell in love with Chris. .... I think you don't understand how strongly I love Anna.

See, again, this is the kind of thing that leads me to feel you don't necessarily want to hear what's being said here. You're making excuses. Do you really think that no one on this board understands how powerful love and passion can be? Do you really believe that old fairy tale that this is so powerful that no one but you and Anna/you and Chris have ever experienced it? That somehow the force of those feelings, which have never before occurred to anyone in thousands of years of history of mankind, give you the right to behave differently from normal ethical standards?


I could have quit Chris. I would have lived the rest of my life thinking perhaps I had lost the love of my life. I think Anna and Chris' husband understood that and don't think it is easy rebuilding a happy marriage on a background of a frustrated passion. I would have had the same reasonment the same for Anna.

And once again, what I see in your statements is all about how this is affecting you, your great passion, your great dilemma, your great desire to have both women, your great love story that would eclipse anything ever seen on the silver screen.

I think the situation will never really be resolved until you develop more empathy for everyone around you and start realizing that ethical people are not ruled by their passions; they govern themselves by a code of behavior that does not change because they feel something really, really strong; they govern themselves by a code of behavior strongly influenced by empathy for how their behavior affects others, which is exactly why many of us here would not in fact cheat on our spouses, no matter how passionate we feel about someone else.
 
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I'm confused you think 4-5 people with an ethical code is a lot .."so many":confused:

what about me ? full of certitude too ?

the questions and comments I asked had nothing to do with cheating.


You might not like this question either but ...what have you and Chris done or offered to help the struggle spouses? Any of that text time devoted to making things better.

Are you currently operating in a hierarchical manner. Spouses being primary ...others are secondary? How would you like it to be?
 
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Cheating is very wrong, nobody ethical would do that in any citconstances, if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.

Cheating -- well, best not to go there is possible. Having GONE there? Best to own up immediately! Failing to do that? Now it is even harder to move it forward. As you are experiencing.

I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.

I do not doubt you love them both. That is not in question. It is HOW you show that love and express it that is less than ideal. Straighten how you express your love up. It's kinda messy there.

I perceive you are hurting, and that this is all Very Hard to Hear. I get that. I am very sorry you hurt. But if you come for honesty and get honesty and are uncomfortable hearing honesty? Best to just own that you are uncomfortable Hearing radical honesty then. (And maybe wonder -- how come people Speaking Their Truth worries you so? Can't you do it too?)

I really do wish you all well. I'm not judging you. I do know what I say may be Very Hard to Hear and you may not be used to that kind of frankness.

It is normal to hesitate over making Big Life Decisions. But don't use that as excuse to lollygag either. Not all choices in life are win or lose. When the choice is "This stinks and this stinks?" The thing to do is pick which one stinks least.

I think in this unfortunate situation, the least stinky choice is to make a decision to be radically honest with yourself and your people.

Understand that even YOU are going through the stages of grief. In your posts I already see the shock/denial stage playing out a bit. We are getting hints at the anger/bargain place too.

I don't really care about HOW you arrived here. Frankly -- I don't know you from adam so how could I claim to care? I'm a stranger!

But I do feel sorry for ALL of you in this sad situation and I feel sorry enough for you all to bother to reply.

So if the goal is to move it forward? Own that you will experience all kinds of things. Including the stages of grief.

Winston Churchill -- "If you are going through hell, keep going!"

Keep it moving forward. Don't set up camp here to LIVE in Limbo hell. Decide and move so you keep hope alive of getting yourself OUT of this mess, and move it closer to happy again. Maybe even chase your dream.

To be clear, you don't help me by saying I had an unethical behavior. I know that, my only issue is what to do next.

Ok. You ask for some kind of map. This is what you want for support. Some ideas or method out of the mess for what to do next.

I describe one possible route, guided by my own ethical code.

  • You can take it as is.
  • You can use it like a template to help you shape it to fit your needs against your own ethical code and thus adapt it to serve you in your own way.
  • Or leave it be because it won't work for your needs after contemplating it. And your needs may include wanting an easier out.
  • Or refuse to consider it, because you aren't ready to own it, or do any work on it yet. That's fine. Just say so: "This is hard! I am not ready to go there yet."
That's about it, dude. I have shared what I can. I can do no further in that area. I'm not a pro counselor.

Stop getting defensive about experiencing the stages of grief. Stop running. Own it. You will feel bad. None of this will feel GREAT! But it will feel less bad and less stinky than the other way. That's more stinky -- to keep stonewalling.

You could just say "I am feeling denial. I am in stage of grief 1." Nobody here would bat an eye. Because you owned it. You are human, and dealing with being a human suffering from the human condition. There.

I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.

I am not going to argue that you seek some kind of polyamorous arrangement. You do seem to want that.

What will make all the spouses happy? Well, you have to talk to all the spouses and take the soundings to see what they actually want and need to feel happy. Not guess at it. But ask so you can KNOW.

I don't know how else to be here other than straight up, Charles. You may not be ready to be straight up. No skin off my nose. I'm some internet stranger. But think of how that affects you and your loved ones. Lack of straight up honesty and frankness.

If you want to take a more passive role and let things unfold as they may as other people make their choices? So YOU don't have to take any responsibility for leadership? That's one way to go. From this community? Sit back and sit tight then, and ask for support/company in your long process. From your polypeeps? Do them the courtesy of clear communication and honestly announce to them "I want to be passive and sit back and let you all sort it out so I don't have to take responsibility for leadership."

If you want to take a more active role and pursue your happiness, and lead the foray to the next chapter in this story? That's another way to go. From this community? Sit back and sit tight then, and ask for support/company in your long process.From your polypeeps? Do them the courtesy of clear communications and honestly announce to them "This is what I want. Here's a possible plan to get there. Any takers on this mission? Who is with me? Got input of your own for the plan? Bring it on!" Decide you want to chase your dream and choose to lead the way.

Really it is on you to decide -- you want a passive role here in your destiny? Or an active role? Then just get on with that. Make up your mind and do what needs doing in a radically honest way.

I'm hoping you decide to chase that Poly V dream and do the work that needs doing.

So ask them, then tell them you want an answer in 30 days so all of you can move on to the next step. Whatever that is to be. Take 60 days if you need. But put a time limit. Who is in for the poly V dream? Who is out?

You all cannot spend your whole lives in this limbo. So a decision must be made, and if NOBODY can agree and decide, that speaks for itself. It's not gonna be a runner no matter what. Time to honestly digest that then.

best wishes,

GG
 
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It's strange to see so many people so full of certitudes. Cheating is very wrong, nobody ethical would do that in any citconstances, if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.

I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.
I now see what's going on. Charles, I ask you to read every word I type, because it is all meant to try to help you. I am being sincere with every keyboard character I type.


You have an arrogant, self righteous attitude. I'll call this your asa for short. You fell in love. Your asa told you it was ok to cheat. You stepped into a new relationship with Chris. You became happier than you're used to being. Your problem now is you want everyone around you who is outside of that new relationship to be happy for you as well. You think their happiness for you will help you to be even happier with Chris - and will totally eliminate any feeling you have of doing something wrong. The problem is they are not happier, or even happy. They just tolerate your new relationship. That makes it a little harder for you to enjoy yourself with Chris.


Anyone outside of your new relationship who does not passionately approve of it, including the people on this forum who are trying to help you, have a "certitude", because they are not passionately happy for your new found love (after all, it is love, right(?) you ask the people on this forum).


The truth is you have reached the outer limit of what your asa can do "for you". It seemed like a convenient tool in the beginning. It let you start an affair. Now, it's standing directly in the way of you feeling any better about YOURSELF than you do right now. The best next step I can suggest is to look directly within yourself and look at your asa. Get to know it, so you can get beyond it.
 
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if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.

You bless her how...by continuing a relationship that is hurting her? :(

I hope you will re-read some previous posts about what cheating does to someone inside and about the difficulties of divorcing, especially for women who often do not have a full-time income. Believe me, nobody does it 'without a second hesitation,' and your insinuation that those who divorce over cheating are less intelligent is highly offensive.
 
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