Lies, lies and more lies.

That wasn't a rant. Cindie obviously took a good 15 mins or more to compose a post out of a place of caring, point by point. She asked VC to post as well. Just trying to get both sides of a story!

Okay, not A rant, a bunch of rants added together. I'm sorry if the word I chose offends you or Cindie. The content comes across as accusatory, not as from a place of caring. Such is the deficiency of typed communication, we are left with only words to sort out the intention.

Regardless, I don't think I have misread in that Cindie primarily wants veganchick's version at this point. Maybe she wants more from me too, but I have already shared as many of my thoughts as I care to for now. Cindie, if your questions can't be answered from what I have already written, I am sorry but that is all I have to offer right now. See it as a cop-out if you like. Maybe veganchick can better answer your questions.
 
When one is angry, it is often hard to see how a relationship can be recovered.
But, often it can. It takes a long time, and ALOT of work on both sides, but it is a possibility.

Shannon and I have safe sex rules. Hell, it is our only rule. But, I have discussed precisely what I define "safe sex" to be (and my definition does err on to the stricter side of things). Your safe sex rules do not seem to have such clarity, so should you guys choose to begin the healing process, you may wish to consider a more thorough discussion on what safe sex actually is.
It is also discussed with all other potential partners, and if they cannot abide by my level of strictness, they are probably not appropriate.

(I realize I have an overly tough line on this, but I was an AIDS and sexual health nurse, so have a little bit of paranoia!)
 
Cindie, the only thing I can gather from your rant is that you are really very curious about veganchick's side of the story. That's cool with me. But seeing as you have already asked her directly for it. I'll leave that between you and her.

If you can't figure out where the lying was in this story, it is beyond me to explain it. Maybe you would have to understand just how close veganchick and I are and how we have communicated over six years. She is not unclear about the lies. Perhaps she will explain it to you in her own words.

Rant? Huh?? Why do you think I would spend the time and energy I did just to rant about something? I have better things to do. I don't see how you can even respond the way you did. I was offering another perspective simply as food for thought. Was just thinking about your post, came back, went through some of the things that I had thought about, and replied with some possibilities that I thought might be helpful for you to hear. Just to let you see that there are more than one way to look at things like this. Take it or leave it. I am serious about how I forget things when under pressure. MichelleZed made some suggestions about you that could be difficult for anyone to read, yet you thought them valuable; why dismiss mine so immediately?

I don't even know what questions you think I want answers to. I didn't ask you anything for any reason other than for you to answer it for yourself, for your own pondering. I don't need anymore from you. I was not accusing anyone, just wanted you to perhaps be able to see a different view, with a different color light on it. I can be totally off-base, I know that. There was nothing behind my post other than the spirit of helpfulness.

Maybe it was just all too much to find any more posts from anyone. You're probably exhausted. I don't know. But, okay, fine -- dismiss me. Do not, under any circumstances, see if there is one iota of value in anything I wrote. Whatever, I really don't give a shit.
 
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Just as all of the rest of it, the lies were simply offered up/volunteered!

I guess it's not unusual for veganchick. (and no this isn't a petty jab) She tends to see herself as the person she wants to be, rather than who she is. I won't judge that or pretend to understand the psychology of it. I think that is an aspect of veganchick's personality she is beginning to own. Hopefully, it will help her grow to love herself as much as I have loved her.

Wow, I live with someone like this, too.

It's so hard, to work around the image he tries so hard to portray. One tough part is, it IS pretty. I want so much for the shiny armor to be "real." Even he says, "I feel like a little boy of coal. The only way I feel comfortable in the world is to put on the shiny armor." I have spent 13 years trying to convince him that the boy of coal is the one who is lovable, not the slick perfect macho man he presents. I can understand him needing to present it to the outside world, I mean, naturally we all want to show the world our best selves. But he goes overboard, for one thing, and for another thing, he has to be real with SOMEONE. I thought that someone could be me.

I am starting to fear that he can't do it with me, after all. That he is incapable of being honest to the the level it will take to create a real marriage with me. I know, I am demanding. I call him on his shit, and if I were him, yeah, maybe I'd be tired of that. I can see why he'd be tempted to go off with a girl who is a little flighty, where he can easily fool her into thinking he's the perfect god he so wants to appear to be.

I want to love the imperfections, the REAL Sundance. But he is so convinced of his own unlovability. I am not sure I can get through. He can't trust that I will love the imperfect person underneath it all -- but that is so weird, because he knows how repulsed I am by his vanity sometimes! How often I have begged him to relax, how many times I have said, I like your hair messy sometimes; I don't care if you have 6-pack abs; I like when your clothes are rumpled (at least on the weekends!); I like when you get in the water and swim with the kids, instead of sitting on the side afraid to mess up your hair! I don't mind if we have to be frugal for awhile, to get caught up on our bills, so if you only tip the waitress 20%, that's ok. (Yes, he plays the rich, generous guy, even when we are flat out broke). It's ok to tell the kids, "No, I'm sorry, I just can't afford it right now," instead of pretending that you can, further perpetuating our debt. If you're not ok with me having sex with Butch, let's talk about it and see if we can work it through. You don't have to fake forgiveness or pretend acceptance. You don't have to be really perfect to enter my heart, you have to be perfectly real, and let me enter yours!

Eek, let me retract that ... leave perfection out of it altogether, because that is unattainable in our humanness. I would just like to see some ATTEMPTS -- where our hearts can meet in the middle. He is his most beautiful when he is humbled. But I don't want to be the one always humbling him! It's co-dependent, and it puts me in a dreadful position of playing god. :( I can get so self-righteous sometimes, I know I can be terrifying to him. (It's scary to be called out! Sundance has done it to me, so I know! But overall, in the end, I've been grateful. He cared enough to want the real me, and to dig deep through all my bullshit for her/me. It was tough love, even though yeah, sometimes I hated it and resented him for it!). I am not ALWAYS tough and horrible to him. I have tried being gentle and understanding, a soft place for him to land, an understanding and forgiving partner. But I can't participate/enable him in his denial. And I find it very hard to love an IMAGE. I can't discern between what's real and what's not. I'm confused, exhausted, and frustrated. :confused: Sadly, I think he is too. :(

I don't know if any of this is relevant to post here on your blog but I couldn't help sharing. Take what you like and leave the rest, right? :rolleyes:
 
There was nothing behind my post other than the spirit of helpfulness.

I'm sorry and will accept it as that then. As I said, it can be very difficult to read intentions in this format. I suppose that is especially true if it isn't something you want to hear. But it wasn't wasted, I have read it twice. I'll probably read it again in the future, when I'm not so exhausted. Maybe I'll find more in it at some point. It has at least led to some dialogue between me and veganchick. For that I can only be grateful to you.
 
I don't know if any of this is relevant to post here on your blog but I couldn't help sharing. Take what you like and leave the rest, right? :rolleyes:

Carma, your posts are relevant and helpful. I haven't responded directly because they leave me with more things to think about than things to say. I have read the last few pages of your blog as well. Feel free to type away!
 
This guy came in your wife's mouth after first meeting and you aren't pissed!? Really?! Where are his boundaries with his loves? He cared so little for Veganchick and her life and loves that he did this? What does that say to his character. Where is this dude? I would like to know who he is so I can stay well away from him and his partners. He obviously cares nothing for anyone but him self. Damn that makes me mad. They should of stopped trying to get off day one! She gave everything and he gave nothing to this. As far as I see he used her and her starry eyed thoughts about his commune or whatever. I hope this was a lesson to have PERSPECTIVE and not jump in so fast to something that has a glossy cover. Substance is everything, this guy is filled with fluff. Gah I would be so angry! Ya, of course he sent a nice "you are awesome" letter back, she asked for nothing and gave everything and he didn't come! She gave her good health! The most prescious gift! How many other women has he cum in. So rude and self centered.

I don't think she should be bragging about how great she is at poly. Sorry Veganchick, anyone can go and meet some guy you just met for a week of sex and fun. Anyone can agree to that also; although its not common to be as generous with your boundaries as you were Podunk. If you get through this and Paul becomes a fixture on yoir life, then I think you can do some bragging. Sorry, I just don't see how this situation is braggable. Humbling? Yes. I think it would suit to be humble.
 
This guy came in your wife's mouth after first meeting and you aren't pissed!? Really?! Where are his boundaries with his loves? He cared so little for Veganchick and her life and loves that he did this? What does that say to his character. Where is this dude? I would like to know who he is so I can stay well away from him and his partners. He obviously cares nothing for anyone but him self. Damn that makes me mad. They should of stopped trying to get off day one! She gave everything and he gave nothing to this. As far as I see he used her and her starry eyed thoughts about his commune or whatever. I hope this was a lesson to have PERSPECTIVE and not jump in so fast to something that has a glossy cover. Substance is everything, this guy is filled with fluff. Gah I would be so angry! Ya, of course he sent a nice "you are awesome" letter back, she asked for nothing and gave everything and he didn't come! She gave her good health! The most prescious gift! How many other women has he cum in. So rude and self centered.

Thanks for the reply Redpepper. Maybe I am pissed? I don't know, the lies trumped all and I wasn't allowed to even process the sex.


I don't think she should be bragging about how great she is at poly. Sorry Veganchick, anyone can go and meet some guy you just met for a week of sex and fun. Anyone can agree to that also; although its not common to be as generous with your boundaries as you were Podunk. If you get through this and Paul becomes a fixture on yoir life, then I think you can do some bragging. Sorry, I just don't see how this situation is braggable. Humbling? Yes. I think it would suit to be humble.

When we joined this forum, veganchick spent days reading your blog and Mono's. She has even mentioned that perhaps she thought she could just dive right in and be in that place. I guess condensing years of process in to a blog can make it look easy!? Anyway, I'm sure seeing your reply will be meaningful to her, as it is to me. And yes "humble" is what I was looking for. It is only today that I am beginning to see any signs of that!
 
Good luck to P. It isn't easy at all! You two are just starting out and it seems you have just had your first learning experience (unless there were others).

I don't see how you can't come back from it but kicking the swinging attitude might be worth looking at. Swinging, in my experience, makes some people think every experience seem overly sexualized. It builds sexual confidence but is sometimes misplaced in some situations.

Poly is not about the sex. Some would argue that with me but whatever, I haven't experienced it as being about sex and I speak from what I personally know. Rushing into sexualized activity is fun and valid, but holding back, pacing, taking time to experience each moment and seeing what comes up seems to build on relationships first. The sex, when it comes, feels completely different as a result.

Learning curves; we all have 'em. I would suggest forgiving her, setting some boundaries, telling him and his loves they should get tested because there has been a break in the chain, wearing a condom and getting a sense of humour. You aren't going to die, but both of you have recognized you learned I imagine.
 
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As I said, it can be very difficult to read intentions in this format. I suppose that is especially true if it isn't something you want to hear.
I think, also, that perhaps you read my post as trying to say that maybe VC didn't lie. I wasn't saying that. I guess a big part of what I wrote was simply to show how, under certain stressors, and when holding on to ideas about what we need, our hopes, etc., we can rationalize things in such a way that we don't really see clearly anymore, and then we make less than optimal choices, whether those are in what we say or what we do.

I am sure you both can repair this. You said several times that your marriage is over. But don't be so quick to give up. Couples have bounced back and become stronger and more loving after things like this and worse. I know a woman who was able to forgive her boyfriend who beat her and even they repaired their relationship into something wonderful, loving, and healthy. So, don't bail... yet. As River said earlier in the thread, true love is so precious that, if it is there between you, it's something to fight for. Another thing to look at is what you said in post #60, which is this idea that you saw VC becoming closer to your ideal and now she's something else. Expectations there, with a notable amount of condescension, and not much empathy toward her. I also agree with Redpepper about feeling angry toward Paul, who took advantage of your wife's wide-eyed hopefulness for his own advantage, AND perhaps you both letting go a bit of the swingerish mindset if and when you do begin to work toward developing additional relationships again.

I have nothing against casual sex, but if you want to have multiple relationships in your lives, focus on slowly building good, healthy, relationships first, and not so much on the sexual activities. Sure, have recreational sex if you want, but I would be much more mindful if you intend on using that as a way into developing real, heart-connected relationships. It's possible, but keep in mind that waving the "sex positive" flag, if there's no relationship to begin with, can do more damage if we forget to stop, look into someone eyes, and truly listen without an agenda, to see what's really there.
 
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This guy came in your wife's mouth after first meeting and you aren't pissed!? Really?! Where are his boundaries with his loves? He cared so little for Veganchick and her life and loves that he did this? What does that say to his character. Where is this dude? I would like to know who he is so I can stay well away from him and his partners. He obviously cares nothing for anyone but him self. Damn that makes me mad. They should of stopped trying to get off day one! She gave everything and he gave nothing to this. As far as I see he used her and her starry eyed thoughts about his commune or whatever. I hope this was a lesson to have PERSPECTIVE and not jump in so fast to something that has a glossy cover. Substance is everything, this guy is filled with fluff. Gah I would be so angry! Ya, of course he sent a nice "you are awesome" letter back, she asked for nothing and gave everything and he didn't come! She gave her good health! The most prescious gift! How many other women has he cum in. So rude and self centered.

Woah, woah. We don't know anything about this Paul fellow. Let's not smear him based on no evidence.

For all we know, Paul was very respectful of Veganchick. If Veganchick enthusiastically consented to the sex acts they shared together, then there's nothing wrong with him going ahead with whatever he did. Not everyone has a boundary against unprotected oral sex, and if Veganchick didn't mention anything about it, he didn't do wrong by taking her yes for a yes.

Podunk, I hope Veganchick does come here and read this, and maybe even post. She needs to start empathizing with you and how you feel.
 
Podunk, I hope Veganchick does come here and read this, and maybe even post. She needs to start empathizing with you and how you feel.

Just because she has been giving him space to have this thread without posting yet doesn't mean VC hasn't read it nor that she hasn't yet "started" having empathy for him.
 
Just because she has been giving him space to have this thread without posting yet doesn't mean VC hasn't read it nor "started" having empathy for him.

You're right, NYCindie. I didn't mean to assume to know where Veganchick is at. It does sound like Podunk would like a little more empathy from her. But she could be getting there... or not! I don't know.
 
Woah, woah. We don't know anything about this Paul fellow. Let's not smear him based on no evidence.

For all we know, Paul was very respectful of Veganchick. If Veganchick enthusiastically consented to the sex acts they shared together, then there's nothing wrong with him going ahead with whatever he did. Not everyone has a boundary against unprotected oral sex, and if Veganchick didn't mention anything about it, he didn't do wrong by taking her yes for a yes.
it sounds like he came in her mouth and she swallowed. I don't know but I'm pretty sure if I was a guy and someone I didn't know encouraged me to cum in their mouth I still wouldn't. I would question their knowledge of safe sex and be an example of what safe sex is about. I wouldn't have much respect for someones lack of forethought really.

No he didn't do anything wrong. He just wasn't very ethical and responsible I don't think. To me that is the most important piece of poly. That might be different for others however. Oral sex can be a risky business and it seems neither of these to had thought of that. Oral sex does not mean someone is exempt from passing something on or having something passed to them.
 
Sorry you're hurting, Podunk. :(

I am sure you both can repair this. You said several times that your marriage is over. But don't be so quick to give up. Couples have bounced back and become stronger and more loving after things like this and worse. I know a woman who was able to forgive her boyfriend who beat her and even they repaired their relationship into something wonderful, loving, and healthy. So, don't bail... yet. As River said earlier in the thread, true love is so precious that, if it is there between you, it's something to fight for.

Just because some people have forgiven their partners for worse stuff and have been able to move past it, doesn't mean he has to. Not that you're saying he must, just saying I find it pretty irrelevant what others do in their relationships. I know many people who stay in dysfunctional relationships way too long. However, I agree with you that this situation is far from hopeless.
 
Just because she has been giving him space to have this thread without posting yet doesn't mean VC hasn't read it nor that she hasn't yet "started" having empathy for him.

You're right, NYCindie. I didn't mean to assume to know where Veganchick is at. It does sound like Podunk would like a little more empathy from her. But she could be getting there... or not! I don't know.

Veganchick has only read some of the most recent posts. She is still hesitant to start at the beginning, maybe still some avoidance of owning this situation. She has written pages of her own with the intention of sharing here. She is a a little more reserved than me. I think it's harder for her to just throw her thoughts and emotions out there and see what comes.

In talking to veganchick tonight, I think I finally found some words to help her understand how much she hurt me. For the first time, I saw some compassion in her eyes.
 
Woah, woah. We don't know anything about this Paul fellow. Let's not smear him based on no evidence.

I don't think Paul is a bad guy. I don't know him well, mostly only what veganchick has shared. Paul married a poly woman two years ago. He still isn't really sure about this whole poly thing, but is exploring the possibilities and enjoying (or at least trying to) a bunch of free sex in the meantime. If I had to describe Paul based on what I now know, I'd call him a swinger.

It seems veganchick saw Paul initially as this experienced poly guy. At their parting, it was actually her giving him advice. She told him what an interesting and beautiful person Meghan seems to be and suggested that he take the time to get to know her better. He said that he would. I wish him well.
 
I think, also, that perhaps you read my post as trying to say that maybe VC didn't lie. I wasn't saying that.

It did come across that way when I read it.

I am sure you both can repair this. You said several times that your marriage is over. But don't be so quick to give up.

I said that in the depth of shattering, in real time as this was in the middle of unfolding. My original post was not some idyllic reflection and did not enjoy the luxury of hindsight. It was pure raw passion flopped out there for better or worse. We have come far in these few days. I'm not sure I could even re-read my original post right now.

Sure, have recreational sex if you want, but I would be much more mindful if you intend on using that as a way into developing real, heart-connected relationships.

I agree and think I learned that a long time ago from our swinging experiences. I made the mistake of assuming that veganchick had too. Well, not the mistake really, we had discussed as much. I guess it didn't really sink in though for veganchick until she experienced it herself.
 
Just because some people have forgiven their partners for worse stuff and have been able to move past it, doesn't mean he has to. Not that you're saying he must, just saying I find it pretty irrelevant what others do in their relationships. I know many people who stay in dysfunctional relationships way too long. However, I agree with you that this situation is far from hopeless.

I am too hurt right now to know and still clinging to what we had before this mess. The loss of that relationship as I knew it is still too painful and devastating to process. Even with the many things we can salvage and the unlimited possibilities of what we can build in the future, it is going to take some time to decide if I even want that. I want what we had and I can never have that with veganchick. Starting over with someone else would at least allow the hope of having something that special again.

Redpepper suggested I get a sense of humor. She doesn't know me so I will forgive that little jab. My sense of humor never quits, we have both broken down laughing many times in the middle of this, at the most inappropriate of times. Even with my life crumbling around me I can't help saying completely ridiculous things at times. That said, I will share the analogy I came up with for veganchick tonight. It left us laughing, but she got it, it made sense to her.

Have you ever eaten at an Ethiopian restaurant? The food is served on a huge flatbread in the middle of the table and everyone shares. On the flatbread are little piles of many wonderfully spicy and exotic dishes. It's food art, a taste adventure, each little pile bringing something new and wonderful to the tongue. Well that's our relationship up until this point. Unfortunately, veganchick for reasons unknown, decided to take a big stinking steamy shit right in the middle of the flatbread. Now I could still eat around that and enjoy all the other dishes, but would I want to?

Just something to think about. I guess it depends on how hungry I am and how tasty all those other dishes might be. There are other Ethiopian restaurants around. I haven't eaten there, maybe they have even better food? I don't know. I could chance it or stay here and eat around the shit. We'll see. :confused:
 
I am too hurt right now to know and still clinging to what we had before this mess. The loss of that relationship as I knew it is still too painful and devastating to process. Even with the many things we can salvage and the unlimited possibilities of what we can build in the future, it is going to take some time to decide if I even want that. I want what we had and I can never have that with veganchick.

I know it feels like this when your trust is broken. It feels like there is nothing but shit left of your beautiful relationship. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that bad! You won't know until you both have some time to process this both separately and together. It will take some time for you both to be able to understand each other in this, and you both need to work to gain that. But once you do, when you understand her side, and she uderstands yours, then both of you can begin to assess whether you can and want to rebuild your relationship (as it was or into something even better). *hug*
 
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