How to invite your wife into polyamory ?

The former may be difficult because you are approaching this as a poly relationship.

Good point.

Yes I guess a platonic relation is enough to me.

The thing is that I have sexual attraction for Cam too, as a side-effect. And Cam for me (she melts down inside), but she restrains her self quite well in order to be respectful with my wife.

I wasn't so smart however. I didn't put up such effort. Instead, I hug Cam in the wrist and touch her too much, despite the angry faces of my wife and her. So my wife became increasingly suspicious and jealous. She is also jealous about Cam being closer to me than to her.

Anyway, the steps could be:

1) Have Cam to be with us within a purely friendly/platonic relationship. (*)

2) Wait for Cam to get closer and more to my wife - that was already happening naturally.

3) Wait for my wife to feel comfortable in allowing me to have some kind of romantic intimacy with Cam and physical contact. Watch how this evolves naturally. (**)

(*) - I have already explained to my wife my position, that although there is sexual attraction, it isn't my goal.

(**) - There is reasonable chance that as my wife feels safe she will appreciate some kind of sexual approach. She has some uncommon sexual attraction patterns, but this is the subject to another topic.
 
I don't get where I misunderstood you.

In short, I have trouble creating significant emotional connection with everyone around, so I become unemotional all day long, then I overcompensate with a wife who "loves in excess" in the "I hate you don't leave me" fashion, and she is not the first.

This is an issue with communication and managing own emotions in a relationship. It is an acquired skill that many end up learning as adults and find it hard (or may be handicapped by past trauma), but there are no short cuts.

Now I seek to find balance and to expand my horizons, learning to love more than one adult at the same time.

This is a relationship preference. If you are having trouble communicating in one relationship, adding a second will make it triply hard, and does nothing to address your original difficulties, which don't need a new romantic partner to address - generally when you work with these issues, you work with them with whatever relationships you are already dealing with. There is no magical new relationship that will gift you the skill. If you find it hard to communicate with one partner in a difficult mood, you'll find it hard with anyone in a difficult mood, mostly. It is about your behavior patterns, not theirs.

In some way, this is related to my parents who fought with each other for so many years and my mother who has always been emotionally neglectful.

This is where it is a job for a psychologist, not romantic partner. If your historical issues with your mother (lack of experience of emotional relationships) are screwing one relationship, they will screw all relationships you throw at them till you learn to work with them. A new partner will not change you into a new person with a new past.

The issue is not whether you want sex or whether you want to cuddle or whether you want to stand on one foot at an exact 10ft distance from half a dozen people. The issue is that deep rooted psychological problems cannot be resolved by juggling external factors. You are choosing to focus on the sex, because you'd like to grab an excuse to dismiss all the excellent observations made by many people here. Whether you had sex with Cam or not, your intimacy with her was disliked by your wife while you were apart, who is also distressed if you seek it now, while your objective is to put them both in the same bed. Whether you have sex or not, it is completely disrespectful to your wife anyway to deliberately plot something she finds unpleasant with another woman and more importantly for you, unlikely to succeed (and if it succeeds, it will be bad news for your relationship issues, not good). The essence of most of the advice you got stands, in my view.

You can choose to ignore it and go through your own "thrust hand in electrical socket when mom isn't looking, because you don't want to believe that fascinating object can be nasty, so obviously she misunderstood" process. Not our headache.

You are on a polyamory forum asking about how to introduce your wife to it. You are currently claiming monogamy, then using some sort of claimed platonic innocence like a condom against ethical criticism. What you type here won't change your life. Winning arguments here won't make your strategies work if they are illogical. I suggest you focus on using the excellent advice you are getting instead of lecturing people on how they aren't understanding you. Unless of course your goal in life isn't your relationships, but getting random people on forums to believe your version even when you revise it. They read your post and responded to it. You wrote it. Including the title.
 
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Yes I guess a platonic relation is enough to me.

LOLWUT????

versus exact next sentence

The thing is that I have sexual attraction for Cam too, as a side-effect. And Cam for me (she melts down inside), but she restrains her self quite well in order to be respectful with my wife.

I wasn't so smart however. I didn't put up such effort.is Instead, I hug Cam in the wrist and touch her too much, despite the angry faces of my wife and her.

Creepy MAX.

I have no idea why you thought a poly forum would be a good idea. You're touching a woman who doesn't like it "too much". That falls into sexual harassment more like. Your wife doesn't like it. Gets you out of the poly scope for dead sure till you divorce.

If Cam likes it, but not in front of your wife, it is cheating. If you're imagining she likes it, it is sexual harassment. Nothing about this is ethical.

If your wife were on the forum, I'd be recommending finding a good divorce lawyer.
 
Love Quest, you sound incredibly paternalistic not just towards your wife but Cam as well. What makes you think you know what Cam needs to be "healed?" Why do you expect your wife to invite Cam to sleep with both of you, even if no sex is happening?

Don't blame this void of yours on your childhood experiences. Everyone has unfortunate shit to deal with. You want to bend your wife into a relationship she doesn't want ONLY because that's what YOU want.

I agree with the others who say you need professional counseling, not another relationship.
 
Revelations ....

anamikanon,

I didn't ignore advice from all others. I just didn't have enough time to reply. I did reply to you disagreeing with a particular advice or yours and that seems to have hurt your feelings, so I'm sorry.

This is an issue with communication and managing own emotions in a relationship.

Is that conclusion based on the fact that I'm not precise in my English communication? But that's my 2nd language. In my 1st language, I don't think I'm lacking on communication skills. On the contrary, I have acquired almost 20 years of experience from 3 long term relationships with difficult partners. And when I say difficult I mean people with serious psychiatric diagnostics, including personality disorders. And those partners weren't able to sustain any other significant romantic relationship in their lives. I have also read a few relationship books and practiced them, and found out by myself the most effective communication strategies for each particular relationship.

And Cam, by the way, is the opposite; a very resilient and calm person, like me. And she handles quite well her difficult mother, who has the same disorder as my wife. Thus I believe she makes up for the missing ingredient. Me and Cam alone gets boring, while my enthusiastic wife make it exiting, but she needs two of us to handle her moods and give her enough attention. Below is my effort to describe this logic with an image I just created:

LixIKSc

If Cam likes it, but not in front of your wife, it is cheating. If you're imagining she likes it, it is sexual harassment. Nothing about this is ethical.

I'm not imagining. Cam has shown strong sexual desires in our past relationship. She had orgasms, despite the fact that she was a 30+ virgin woman, due to religious purposes. She told me last week that she feels temped with me, because she hasn't had any relationship within a few months. But she wouldn't in any way risk damaging my current marriage and also wouldn't like to feel again as 2nd priority or a replacement, as she felt in the past, understandably. It is true that my wife demands much more attention, specially when pregnant. So the only real possibility is for us 3 to be together, to whatever extent.
 
ref2018 knows it

ref2018, I loved reading your reply. That exactly the kind of freedom I dream about. In past, my father built a huge square bed for the entire family. That's how animals spend their nights, close to each other and sharing body heat, so it is very natural. Though the family broke apart when I was about 5 years old after my mother's mental state deteriorated ans she gave up on motherhood. So the large bed makes me feel as part of something, just like in my past happy ages. I haven't felt as happy ever after. :(
 
Yes, paternalistic.

powerpuffgrl1969,

Love Quest, you sound incredibly paternalistic not just towards your wife but Cam as well.

powerpuffgrl1969, yes I may be paternalistic. This can be uncomfortable for some, but is a desirable trait in other circumstances. Such as parenting, were I receive many compliments, and working a technical leader, were I'm very respected. And it is a desirable trait when dealing with a woman who has frequent temper tantrums like a 2 year old (as part of her mental disorder).

What makes you think you know what Cam needs to be "healed?"

She has been traumatized by her mother's mental disorder plus father abandonment in young age followed by school bullying and no one to be her buffer. As a result she is excessively shy and she is restrained in regards to sharing her emotions, and her anxiety is a blocker to romantic relationships. In a far past, I was also very shy and unable to communicate my emotions. This has changed, but I there is more progress to do.

A dark cloud from a dark past still follows and chases me, but all I need is a bright sun to fade it away.

Why do you expect your wife to invite Cam to sleep with both of you, even if no sex is happening?

Well, if you don't see another purpose for sharing the same bed other than having sex, then you won't get that one. And btw, they both have already shared the same bed once.

I agree with the others who say you need professional counseling, not another relationship.

Professional counseling can be very useful sometimes, but some things can only be nullified by their opposite. For instance bad childhood memories can only be washed away when replaced by imaginary good childhood memories. The following book supports this idea:

Home Coming - Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child, By: John Bradshaw

But it is too hard to imagine something that isn't happening or that you haven't ever experienced. Thus the need to expand horizons.
 
LoveQuest, you seem to be a very unconventional person with unconventional ideas about love. That is fine with me, but you'd better be aware that you can't rely on assumptions when communicating with your wife, Cam or other people. We tend to assume that other people are like ourselves, but that's not always the case, and the more out of the ordinary we find ourselves to be the more we must put emphasis on listening and explaining and respecting.

There are many issues I read in your writing, the first and foremost is that you seem to be pushing your dream on both women regardless of whether you have their enthusiastic consent or not. This is usually a bad idea, as people sometimes agree to go along with arrangements they don't particularly like but then grow resentment over time (and rightfully so, as there was pressure involved in asking their initial consent). If you're in a bit of caregiver/dominant/patronizing role with both girls, there's even more responsibility lying on you not to push for arrangements which would be in effect harmful for any of them. And many people do not handle polyamory well.

I've got questions for you. Please think them through.
  • Is Cam the only one you're interested in?
  • Could your dream of a big bed and many loving people in it be fulfilled in another way? Like, you building such a bed for your wife and children, or having a party with friends in a bed?
  • You seem to have some ambivalence around sexual attraction with Cam. I get your "platonic" friendship is more important, but how will you handle this kind of frustration adding up? How will she handle the frustration? Isn't it more honest to say that you do want a sexual relationship?
  • You seem to want to keep Cam around a lot, make her "part of the family" so to speak. Is that what she wants?
  • How is it healing for Cam to get her "help" with a person with the same personality disorder as her mother had? Isn't that rather more retraumatization and re-creating a familiar yet codependent and unhealthy dynamics from her childhood?
  • How much can be sorted out by being straightforward and honest with your wife?
  • Can you take NO for an answer from your wife? (hint: if not, that's some real trouble)
  • If you hear a no, what things will you be disappointed about but will find other ways to fulfil your needs, and what are the deal breakers that will eventually lead to divorce?

Thanks for listening. I hope you can understand my English, please let me know if things are unclear. What's your mother language?
 
Second language or not, I think you are communicating your ideas quite clearly. Alarmingly, as a matter of fact.

You are in NO position to "heal" anyone. Why do you choose to forge relationships with women who have psychiatric disorders? I have a psychiatric disorder, and I would be extremely angry if you came along and told me you know exactly what would "fix" me. My husband supports me, but he in no way pretends to have a psychiatric degree. Self-help books do not cut it. If I'm having a bad period, he suggests I talk to my doctor.

If these women do not want to have a relationship together, no amount of your rationalizing or drawing of hearts is going to make your manipulations any less creepy. In one post you say that your wife wants a relationship with her, in another you say she's jealous. You are only focusing on what you want instead of what is reality.
 
my wife becomes insecure/jealous too easily, so she restrains me, which turns out as a barrier for me to release my repressed feelings. My dream scenario is to sleep with both of them together, not for sex but for love.

  • I love my wife, she is very attractive and does fulfill my sexual needs well enough. I slept with Cam many times in the past but we never had sex, because she choose to remain virgin.

    I would only be emotionally fulfilled and feel accepted if it was with all 3 of us together, with the kids, and in harmony.

I don't expect them to be romantically or sexually involved... but I do expect them to be intimate affectionately and develop some kind of love.

I like sex multiple times per week and I know it plays a critical role in creating bonds, but for me sleeping together is more important and fulfilling than having sex. My wife also has trouble accepting that I make a distinction.

Good point. Yes I guess a platonic relation is enough to me.
The thing is that I have sexual attraction for Cam too, as a side-effect. And Cam for me (she melts down inside), but she restrains her self quite well in order to be respectful with my wife.

I wasn't so smart however. I didn't put up such effort. Instead, I hug Cam in the wrist and touch her too much, despite the angry faces of my wife and her. So my wife became increasingly suspicious and jealous.

(**) - There is reasonable chance that as my wife feels safe she will appreciate some kind of sexual approach. She has some uncommon sexual attraction patterns, but this is the subject to another topic.

Thus I believe she makes up for the missing ingredient. Me and Cam alone gets boring, while my enthusiastic wife make it exiting, but she needs two of us to handle her moods and give her enough attention.

I'm not imagining. Cam has shown strong sexual desires in our past relationship. She had orgasms, despite the fact that she was a 30+ virgin woman, due to religious purposes. She told me last week that she feels temped with me, because she hasn't had any relationship within a few months. But she wouldn't in any way risk damaging my current marriage and also wouldn't like to feel again as 2nd priority or a replacement, as she felt in the past, understandably. It is true that my wife demands much more attention, specially when pregnant. So the only real possibility is for us 3 to be together, to whatever extent.

So, let me get this straight: You say you didn't realise "sleep with" means to share sex, but in your comment above, you say you DID "sleep with" Cam many times in the past... AND that, despite being a virgin, she did have orgasms (with you) though she hasn't had sexual or intimate relations with anyone in a while, which makes it difficult for her to "restrain" herself around you, as she does still desire you, and you her.

At another point, you state you'd be content with a platonic relationship, and that the co-sleeping with Cam need not be sexual in nature, nor do you expect Cam and your wife to be sexual with each other.

However, you DO "expect" them to develop a loving and intimate relationship with each other (I'm not sure to what extent your definition of intimacy extends...) and you DO want/expect all three of you to sleep together in the same bed. In fact, you state that a V relationship would not suit your purposes, and that the "only" relationship dynamic you're willing to consider is a triad, preferably one in which a three-way intimate/sexual relationship would develop naturally over time.

Moreover, you have a high sex drive and have admitted you find it difficult to restrain yourself from touching Cam, even in your wife's presence, although you know she is already struggling with jealousy issues and mental illness... and Cam with fears of abandonment, being replaced/secondary and childhood trauma.

Despite your wife's mental health issues, you find her attractive and exciting to be around, and believe her personality balances out the more sedate natures of you and Cam. It seems you wish to use her more volatile nature as a "foil" to counteract any boredom that might occur if you and Cam were in a mono relationship, like before (??)

I must ask you... how is any of this healthy for the people concerned? Especially for your wife, but Cam also (and your kids, if tensions arise in the household due to jealousy or increased mental health flare-ups from stress).

How long do you think you and Cam can sleep, platonically, in the same bed with your wife and "restrain yourselves" from groping each other or more, considering you both have admitted to still being physically attracted to each other and have relatively high sex drives?

How do you think touching each other in front of your wife in this fashion, covertly or overtly, will affect her emotionally and mentally? Don't you think you are putting way too much pressure on her to accept your renewed relationship with your ex-gf Cam already, without dragging her into it under the guise of "healing" anybody and/or having it be a deep-yet-platonic three-way friendship?

Have you considered relationship counselling with a therapist experienced in polyamorous issues? Have you, Cam and/or your wife considered seeking individual therapy BEFORE you attempt such an ambitious new relationship dynamic? I could have read it all wrong, but it seems to me as if YOU are the only one who really wants the relationship/s to head in the direction you describe. Neither Cam nor your wife are bisexual + your wife is jealous of yours and Cam's closeness/attraction + Cam is fearful of being cast in a secondary role + and you all have pre-existing emotional problems = not a great recipe for success.
 
(I still don't know how to do quotes right) "Professional counseling can be very useful sometimes, but some things can only be nullified by their opposite. For instance bad childhood memories can only be washed away when replaced by imaginary good childhood memories. The following book supports this idea:

Home Coming - Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child, By: John Bradshaw

But it is too hard to imagine something that isn't happening or that you haven't ever experienced. Thus the need to expand horizons. "


So, Luna, they don't need counseling, you see; he's read a book! Maybe even more than one!

When LoveQuest stated the he "expects" his wife and Cam to have an intimate (but not sexual?) and loving relationship, I lost any empathy I had for him. I don't think this is a language issue, either, because everything he has written does, indeed, indicate that he expects these two women to behave in the way HE wants.
 
I have faith !

lunabunny,

Childhood issues are not consistent only of traumas, but also by the harm of missing elements of love and care. An invisible harm which is even more prevalent. Thus fact is that majority of us has childhood issues, yet the ones who are sufficiently aware of those issues and admit it represent a minority.

Yes, following my advice, my wife has tried a few different therapist and psychiatrist, including one specialized in her illness, but that made more harm than healing, she says. I have learned that less than 10% of people with her disorder get "healed" (recovered) by following therapy, which yet doesn't prove that therapy is the healing factor, even for those. And btw the number of people diagnosed with her disorder who commit suicide is greater then the number of people who recover through therapy and medication. When I met my wife, her life was falling a part, from a religious devoted person into a promiscuous life. It took me years to find out how to help her, but she has never cheated on me and she is much better now as a devoted mother who has made huge advances in her personal life goals, such as having a family, graduating and being proud of herself. Mostly recovered.

Regarding sexual attraction, some people are impulsive and even afraid of their compulsions, like my wife, but me and Cam are the opposite. We can hold up, if we choose to. So my behavior won't be an issue anymore since I have decided to quit trying to make "advances" with Cam. I'm confident that I'm gonna be able to eliminate my wife's discomfort next time, making a plainly pleasurable environment.

I believe it is time to have faith. My wife's love towards me should eventually make her give me more freedom, and she is already. She has allowed me to hang out with Cam for a short period, and then she told me she was happy that she did get confident enough to allow that.

In fact, you state that a V relationship would not suit your purposes, and that the "only" relationship dynamic you're willing to consider is a triad, preferably one in which a three-way intimate/sexual relationship would develop naturally over time.

I don't see the females being sexually active with each other, but they have quickly developed considerable intimacy as friends. My wife's sexuality is not really orthodox. She seems to get exited by talking about other men she met during our sexual intercourse, or about other woman I met, before it, but only if she feels safe and preferred. So there is a chance that she may decide to explore new experiences, such as being watched or watching (like voyeurism), yet that's just a possibility.

and Cam with fears of abandonment, being replaced/secondary and childhood trauma.

Well Cam is not struggling with that, because she prevents herself before getting into this situation. Her struggle is more about steeping forward to strengthen her bonds, put herself in a vulnerable situation and allow herself to be dependable. She is a flower that hasn't fully unbuttoned yet.

Despite your wife's mental health issues, you find her attractive and exciting to be around, and believe her personality balances out the more sedate natures of you and Cam. It seems you wish to use her more volatile nature as a "foil" to counteract any boredom that might occur if you and Cam were in a mono relationship, like before (??)

No, I don't believe in mono relationships anymore. Plus I think you are underestimating my wife. He has great qualities too. The thing is that I have the resiliency and experience needed to handle and deal with situations which would repel the vast majority of men (and has repelled a few in the past). That's the definition of love; leaning how to live and accept all of your partner's shortcomings.

I must ask you... how is any of this healthy for the people concerned? Especially for your wife, but Cam also (and your kids, if tensions arise in the household due to jealousy or increased mental health flare-ups from stress).

I have multiple kids from previous relationship and have already dealt with all kinds of fires from wife and ex-wife. Cam only joins us upon invitations from my wife and this is not a trigger for my wife. And Cam wouldn't ever be able to make a fire or anything close. She is always laughing and when she talks everyone gets cool.

How long do you think you and Cam can sleep, platonically, in the same bed with your wife and "restrain yourselves" from groping each other or more, considering you both have admitted to still being physically attracted to each other and have relatively high sex drives?

If needed, forever, given the fact that I can have sex with my gorgeous wife and Cam can have sex with anyone else as she wishes.

How do you think touching each other in front of your wife in this fashion, covertly or overtly, will affect her emotionally and mentally?

Sounds like a reasonable question for someone with regular mood problems. Though experience has proven to me that her mental state is mostly determined by biological factors, not external factors. Yet, like I said before, I'll make her comfortable.

Have you considered relationship counselling with a therapist experienced in polyamorous issues?

If an official polyamorous relationship is well established and I get issues with it, then I might consider this advice, although it sounds like a very rare expertise.

I could have read it all wrong, but it seems to me as if YOU are the only one who really wants the relationship/s to head in the direction you describe.

Not everyone who enters polyamory has planned into it, I guess. I can assure you that it would be a desirable arrangement for Cam, provided that there is no competition. All she needs is a green flag from my wife to get closer, in whatever extent. In regard to my wife, only time can tell what would be desirable or not for her.
 
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(I still don't know how to do quotes right) "Professional counseling can be very useful sometimes, but some things can only be nullified by their opposite. For instance bad childhood memories can only be washed away when replaced by imaginary good childhood memories. The following book supports this idea:

Home Coming - Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child, By: John Bradshaw

But it is too hard to imagine something that isn't happening or that you haven't ever experienced. Thus the need to expand horizons. "


So, Luna, they don't need counseling, you see; he's read a book! Maybe even more than one!

When LoveQuest stated the he "expects" his wife and Cam to have an intimate (but not sexual?) and loving relationship, I lost any empathy I had for him. I don't think this is a language issue, either, because everything he has written does, indeed, indicate that he expects these two women to behave in the way HE wants.

I know exactly what you're saying, powerpuffgrl. And I admit that was the overall impression I got also.

I am still not convinced otherwise, however as LoveQuest sought input from the forum membership, I thought I'd try again to get to the bottom of the rather confusing premise he describes...

lunabunny,

Childhood issues are not consistent only of traumas, but also by the harm of missing elements of love and care. An invisible harm which is even more prevalent. Thus fact is that majority of us has childhood issues, yet the ones who are sufficiently aware of those issues and admit it represent a minority.

My apologies. I was using "childhood trauma" as a catch-all term, but what I should have said, perhaps, is childhood issues or childhood trauma and/or neglect, but that may be splitting hairs in the context of this post.

Yes, following my advice, my wife has tried a few different therapist and psychiatrist, including one specialized in her illness, but that made more harm than healing, she says. I have learned that less than 10% of people with her disorder get "healed" (recovered) by following therapy, which yet doesn't prove that therapy is the healing factor, even for those. And btw the number of people diagnosed with her disorder who commit suicide is greater then the number of people who recover through therapy and medication. When I met my wife, her life was falling a part, from a religious devoted person into a promiscuous life. It took me years to find out how to help her, but she has never cheated on me and she is much better now as a devoted mother who has made huge advances in her personal life goals, such as having a family, graduating and being proud of herself. Mostly recovered.

You don't mention the specifics of your wife's particular diagnosis (and are not obliged to do so here, of course), though it might better help the forum understand what drives her and her possible reactions.

(For instance, I know from the personal experience of close friends that certain disorders, such as Borderline Personality disorder and various delusional disorders, such as Schizoaffective disorder, can be quite resistant to traditional therapies.)

I'm glad that your wife has mostly achieved healing and improved her quality of life over the years, across many spheres.

I'm sure you care about her well-being, and for this reason among others, adding another person to your relationship dynamic is a HUGE step and something not to be trifled with, as I think you realise - or you'd not be asking the advice of a forum such as this. It concerns me that her current and hard-won emotional stability might be compromised by the addition of someone who, on one hand, she is beginning to feel a growing affection for... but on the other, she still clearly feels threatened by, as evidenced by her jealousy and sulking/anger/sadness (or however it manifests), whenever you and Cam touch, hug or act "lovingly" toward each other in her presence.

Regarding sexual attraction, some people are impulsive and even afraid of their compulsions, like my wife, but me and Cam are the opposite. We can hold up, if we choose to. So my behavior won't be an issue anymore since I have decided to quit trying to make "advances" with Cam. I'm confident that I'm gonna be able to eliminate my wife's discomfort next time, making a plainly pleasurable environment.

I believe it is time to have faith. My wife's love towards me should eventually make her give me more freedom, and she is already. She has allowed me to hang out with Cam for a short period, and then she told me she was happy that she did get confident enough to allow that.

Another question if I may, as this part is confusing:

- Have you openly discussed the subject of Polyamory with your wife? What is her stance on Poly?
(You say your wife has never cheated on you, but you were in a relationship with Cam while you two were living separately. You also say you have multiple children from different relationships. Have you ever practised a polyamorous lifestyle in the past? )

- Have you openly and CLEARLY explained your intentions towards Cam? Meaning, have you explained to your wife that you wish to include her (Cam) in the life you AND she share? From your original post, I would guess you haven't been completely honest about this, as you asked us how you should go about introducing the subject.

I do truly believe you ought to be totally up front and honest about what you WANT (as opposed to "expect") from this situation with these two women. You cannot simply impose your desires upon them, by subterfuge - i.e. waiting or encouraging them to become close friends and throwing them into situations such as voyeuristic sex scenarios - without honestly explaining what you seek from this situation. Honesty, transparency and open communication are KEY when it comes to polyamory!

I don't see the females being sexually active with each other, but they have quickly developed considerable intimacy as friends. My wife's sexuality is not really orthodox. She seems to get exited by talking about other men she met during our sexual intercourse, or about other woman I met, before it, but only if she feels safe and preferred. So there is a chance that she may decide to explore new experiences, such as being watched or watching (like voyeurism), yet that's just a possibility.

What you are describing is sharing sexual fantasies, or perhaps mild kink scenarios. It does NOT mean your wife is necessarily up for living in a polyamorous triad. The only way to gauge her willingness to participate in such an arrangement is to ASK her directly... and if she shows interest, discuss and negotiate your respective boundaries and rules/agreements (including Cam's!)

I still strongly advise you to seek relationship counselling IF there is any chance of this situation going ahead - as individuals, couple/s, and possibly as a group if all three feel comfortable enough with each other.


Not everyone who enters polyamory has planned into it, I guess. I can assure you that it would be a desirable arrangement for Cam, provided that there is no competition. All she needs is a green flag from my wife to get closer, in whatever extent. In regard to my wife, only time can tell what would be desirable or not for her.

Oh, I am fully aware of this! I myself was certainly NOT intending to get involved in a polyamorous relationship - in fact, I was dead-set against such things - but, well, here I am. Life occasionally throws us a giant curve-ball, and it's up to us what we attempt to do with it.

In your situation, however, it seems you and Cam ARE "planning" for that eventuality, and only your wife is unaware that this is a possibility you're seriously considering. I believe you need to come clean about your feelings for Cam and approach your wife about your aims (in as diplomatic a manner as possible, while still being clear and up front).
 
You are on a polyamory forum asking about how to introduce your wife to it. You are currently claiming monogamy, then using some sort of claimed platonic innocence like a condom against ethical criticism. What you type here won't change your life. Winning arguments here won't make your strategies work if they are illogical. I suggest you focus on using the excellent advice you are getting instead of lecturing people on how they aren't understanding you. Unless of course your goal in life isn't your relationships, but getting random people on forums to believe your version even when you revise it.

Asking for feedback and accepting it and using it are entirely different things.

At this rate, 10 pages into this thread, we'll still have you describing your feelings in some way you hope we will "understand" (meaning "agree"). I don't think anyone has misunderstood you, many of us DISAGREE with what you're planning as being anything useful or ethical.
 
All you wanna know

Hey Tinwen,

Thanks for your questions. I believe my previous posts has answered some of them and I'll reinforce.

It is true that my wife has taken some steps under pressure and that wasn't productive, but she also took little steps from free will and those were fulfilling for her as well. Cam, on the other hand, is not the kind of person that does anything under pressure. She is like a bird.

  • Is Cam the only one you're interested in?
  • Could your dream of a big bed and many loving people in it be fulfilled in another way? Like, you building such a bed for your wife and children, or having a party with friends in a bed?
1 - Nope. I love my wife and have solid feelings for Cam. I could find someone else to be interested in, but that would hardly be a match.
2 - Are you inviting me to your place ? (just joking) Parenting has brought me great fulfillment. Our baby always shares our bed and sometimes some of the other kids. However, the presence of an adult brings somewhat more comfort. Yet not any adult. I wouldn't be comfortable in sharing the bed with any friend with whom I don't have deep emotional connections.

  • You seem to have some ambivalence around sexual attraction with Cam. I get your "platonic" friendship is more important, but how will you handle this kind of frustration adding up? How will she handle the frustration? Isn't it more honest to say that you do want a sexual relationship?

They both know quite well how I feel about Cam and Cam for me. There are no secrets. It is hard to open up with my wife, but I end up being as honest with her as I'm honest in this board.

  • You seem to want to keep Cam around a lot, make her "part of the family" so to speak. Is that what she wants?

Best question would be "does she like that?", and the answer for this question is yes, she seems to enjoy being with both of us more than she enjoyed being just with me in the past, and that doesn't seem to be conflicting with any of her personal goals. She isn't virgin anymore and has never expressed the desire to have kids or a preference for a mono relationship.

For instance, she has a FWB called Les and once she said "I wouldn't worry if I got pregnant from you or Les, but I'll pray for God that I'll never get pregnant from my boyfriend, he is an ogre."

  • How is it healing for Cam to get her "help" with a person with the same personality disorder as her mother had? Isn't that rather more retraumatization and re-creating a familiar yet codependent and unhealthy dynamics from her childhood?

This is common theory. That people unconsciously seek into re-experiencing their traumatic childhood by bonding with similar partner with the same disorder. Though I see it the other way around. I believe those who have learned through experience on how to deal with a particular disorder from their parents end up being an ideal match on the eyes of other people with the same disorder, and highly desirable by them. Thus the disordered one is who puts up effort into attracting and the experienced one gets seduced. Not by the disordered traits, but by other independent qualities of such the disordered one, and mostly by their admiration towards the experienced. Of course both may be experienced and disordered at the same time.

However, the slashing out and outrageous behavior is mostly directed towards people who we judge responsible to fulfill our need. Hence my wife directs it towards me and not towards Cam or the kids. Could Cam become a target too, in future? Unlikely, but even if it did, then it would be much easier to handle the situation with someone else to help, buffer and support (me).

  • How much can be sorted out by being straightforward and honest with your wife?
  • Can you take NO for an answer from your wife? (hint: if not, that's some real trouble)
  • If you hear a no, what things will you be disappointed about but will find other ways to fulfil your needs, and what are the deal breakers that will eventually lead to divorce?

No is my wife's default answer. :) She doesn't like to see me sad and lonely though and that pushes her into trying to fulfill my needs. May sound like blackmail, but that's not the way it goes. Ultimatums or arguing can't do anything but provide fuel for her drama addiction. I just wait for an opportunity were she's willing to listen and most importantly I'm inspired with the right words so that I can share my feelings in a way she understands. The immediate feedback is usually negative, dramatic and maybe even provocative, but shortly after she may give into something I desire, moved by empathy.

The deal breaker for me is to deprive me from closeness (including sex for a while), then leave me and treat me poorly by phone, continuously. She has done that a few times in past, and unfortunately I have suffered a lot. But she has quit doing it since I begun to react by fulfilling my need. How? As soon as I become angry enough and it became a deal breaker for me, I found "a replacement" in a couple of days. The push-pull thing is part of her disorder, so this has happened 3-4 times, but as soon as I start sleeping with someone else, my wife switches into pull mode. Cam was been however the only significant relationship, not just a one/two night stand. That's partially because my wife's hormones were so altered that it was too hard for her to return home or even spend more than a few hours with me without banging her head into the wall. Though her brain and thyroid are healthier now and I feel like those bad memories are buried already.
 
anamikanon,

... I did reply to you disagreeing with a particular advice or yours and that seems to have hurt your feelings, so I'm sorry.

I see you trying to talk your way around unfavorable opinions in various ways. Someone doesn't understand what you mean. Someone doesn't understand psychology in the way you mean (frankly, it is bullshit). Someone misunderstands Cam's interest. Someone misunderstands your wife's sexuality. No matter what anyone says, if they disagree, you come up with some way to dismiss what they said based on something peripheral, while dodging the elephant in the room - the ethics of manipulating two people into catering to your wish.

However patronizing me is not up for grabs.

I said what I said. You are not required to agree with it. However you also don't get to dismiss my posts as "hurt feelings". Ignore, disagree, whatever. I am not some puppy chewing up a slipper because you forgot to pat my head. I am replying to your posts because you came here asking for opinions.

Agree/disagree/ignore. Ad hominem is logical fallacy.
 
It's not that much about me wanting to know, more pointing out the contradictions and biases I perceive to you :/
I've tried hard as I usually do to avoid judgement, but the last few posts have finally convinced me that I should not.

It is true that my wife has taken some steps under pressure and that wasn't productive, but she also took little steps from free will and those were fulfilling for her as well. Cam, on the other hand, is not the kind of person that does anything under pressure. She is like a bird.
No is my wife's default answer. :) She doesn't like to see me sad and lonely though and that pushes her into trying to fulfill my needs. May sound like blackmail, but that's not the way it goes. Ultimatums or arguing can't do anything but provide fuel for her drama addiction. I just wait for an opportunity were she's willing to listen and most importantly I'm inspired with the right words so that I can share my feelings in a way she understands. The immediate feedback is usually negative, dramatic and maybe even provocative, but shortly after she may give into something I desire, moved by empathy.

The deal breaker for me is to deprive me from closeness (including sex for a while), then leave me and treat me poorly by phone, continuously. She has done that a few times in past, and unfortunately I have suffered a lot. But she has quit doing it since I begun to react by fulfilling my need. How? As soon as I become angry enough and it became a deal breaker for me, I found "a replacement" in a couple of days. The push-pull thing is part of her disorder, so this has happened 3-4 times, but as soon as I start sleeping with someone else, my wife switches into pull mode. Cam was been however the only significant relationship, not just a one/two night stand. That's partially because my wife's hormones were so altered that it was too hard for her to return home or even spend more than a few hours with me without banging her head into the wall. Though her brain and thyroid are healthier now and I feel like those bad memories are buried already.
"Pressure" or "blackmail" is not always overt use of power, there can be hidden power imbalances, subtle manipulations and just playing on other peoples' weaknesses used in the art of persuasion, and I get the impression you're well aware of that and plain and simple more experienced in using these than people around you. While subtle manipulations and requests made in the right moment are to some extent present in many relationships, people with healthy individualities and a deep respect for each other are making an effort NOT to rely on anything like this when negotiating major life changes. You've got an extremely unhealthy (and habitual) dynamics going on right there. I hope you're seeing that. Making any major shift may seem (or be) impossible, but in all your writings you're not only apologetic of but outright glorifying the mechanisms you use to create and deal with the status quo.

Using your wife's shaky sense of self and values to have her be part of a picture you've unilaterally constructed for your marriage is total disrespect. Finding "replacements" (real people!) as a way to avoid dealing with your pain and trigger your wife into jealousy (and glorifying that as a solution!) is disgusting beyond measures.

Overall I don't see a way to help with your deep ignorance of human respect.

Anyway, you seem to know perfectly what you want and how to achieve it, so the final question is: Is there anything you still want from this forum?
 
Target: joy

anamikanon, fair enough, I'll just agree/disagree. ;)

Hi Tinwen,

I took some time to think about your remarks before replying.

You said you were making your best effort not to make judgments, but your questions were not rendered out of curiosity but from the desire of showing I'm wrong by pointing out any contradiction. But isn't that the exact definition of judgment, to have the conclusion in forehand, before getting any answer?

Actually, none of my actions are meant to make my wife jealous nor to "take advantage of the situation". If that was the case then indeed I wouldn't need to share my challenges here. Though given the circumstances, I was left out of options. My primary goal has always been to bring my wife back to reality as quick as possible and, in a way, myself too. The non-disordered partner, commonly referred as the "non", suffers quite as much as the disordered one, particularly in her disorder (or even suffer more, as many do argue). The "side effects" to the Non partner include frustration, confusion and depression, which feeds an endless cycle of pain. But it is up to the Non to break up the cycle, setting up the limits. And THERE the hardest part is to free your mind from the entire monogamy taboos and false precepts that we (most of us) are taught our entire life since young. Such as fearing that if you partner's love toward you will suddenly evaporate if he/she finds someone else because one can't love two people at the same time.

It is true that it is easier for me to persuade and give a direction, and I do it frequently, but that's exactly the way she likes it and how needs it to be. She only follows my direction, when she does, because she trusts me.

And because she trusts me, I was able to make an agreement. After realizing that the only way to make progress into any kind of poly acceptance is to remove her discomfort, I resigned into the fact that I must compromise in my freedom and not push her limits. Hence the agreement is that whenever Cam is around I will take up the responsibility of making my wife feel good.

During the past two weeks they had been blocking each other on internet networks due to a misunderstanding. I had to talk to both of them patiently then help Cam to communicate with assertiveness, now things seem back on track. We are going to a "water park" tomorrow, then I'll have the opportunity to make things work, by making everyone happy.

Previous meetings have been very fulfilling for me and were followed by the happiest days I've had in many years. This is far better then the past situation were I had freedom with Cam but didn't have my wife's consent and presence. I don't yet know exactly why, but I should find it out soon.
 
I've steered clear of this thread because the op's sheer inability to recognize the unethical means he is using just frustrate me to no end. But seriously, dude.

1- You admit you've had a cheating relationship with Cam in the past. One without your wife's consent = cheating.
2- You admit that you have an agenda instead of just being honest. So, on top of cheating in the past, you're lying.
3- You admit that despite your wife's perfectly legitimate discomfort surrounding hanging out with your PARTNER IN CHEATING, you forced it on her IN HER OWN HOME until she accepted it. Under duress, which isn't legitimate acceptance, IMO.
4- You consider yourself a moral compass because you don't have this disorder. Yet you admit you have your own issues you need to overcome. So, who's being judgemental? Thinking you know people better than they (and their therapists) know themselves? You. Imposing your desires on one unsuspecting and one not entirely in the know (because it sounds like you haven't been 100% forthright with Cam either) is manipulative and emotionally abusive.

Yes, I'm judging you. I judge myself, too. It's human to judge. I WANT to be on your side. It's not easy to be partnered with someone with mental health issues. I am struggling internally on whether or not it is something I am willing to take on with someone I recently started seeing again. Having someone to support, love, and accept the person striving to overcome any kind of mental health crisis is huge so I commend you for trying but seriously. EVERYONE has told you that this is NOT a healthy way to start an ethically nonmonogamous/polyamorous relationship. Doesn't that tell you that you might want to reconsider your approach to be more honest and, you know, ethical about it?
 
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