Meanwhile - at Church today.

[Al99]

I have previously shared on the religion board of the forum that my personal spiritual belief system might be broadly categorized as de-mythologized Platonic-Christian Gnosticism. My wife has not given the subject as much thought as I have. But we did make a decision to raise our daughter in church - but only in a progressive and theologically-socially liberal environment. We found such a place - even has a very active LGBT support group.

So my daughter and I went to church this morning - as my wife was out of town with her boyfriend - and with me knowing that she would be getting shagged at the same time we were sitting in a pew - adding a touch of irony to the whole experience. (In case anyone is wondering.... she called to say good morning to our daughter on our way to church - and told me she would be back on the road after a "goodbye moment", with both of us understanding what that meant).

But back to the story - we were sitting in the rear of the church - and in the pew in front of us were three ladies sitting next to each other - who were almost certainly in a Lesbian triad (or possibly V - with the hinge in the middle). I had met the middle lady and the one to her left before - and they are an open, committed Lesbian couple. The lady in the middle was engaged in affectionate touches with both of the other ladies, holding hands, touches, etc. And at the "peace point" - they had a wonderful group hug. Of course, nothing is certain - an it really doesn't matter, of course - but it made me smile, especially given what my wife was up to right about then.

I did ask the pastor what he thought about polyamory once (which required explaining what poly is - and relating that we have a lady friend with two husbands - more or less true) - which he thought was completely different than the gay marriage issues - and he is about as liberal as they come in a mainline protestant church. I did give him a friendly warning that I had read some about it - and had learned that it was a small but growing movement, and that he should probably be prepared to see it, given the liberal reputation of the church...... and here we have it - on the third row from the back. (Not to mention the closeted guy on the next row back, sitting next to his young daughter) Al

[kdt26417]

Now that's my kind of church service,

[Magdlyn]

As I've shared before, I am also kind of a gnostic, but I am allergic to church.

I dunno. I'd feel weird having to hip my pastor to my kind of relationship. And it might feel ... titillating to see those 3 lesbians and imagine their sexual formations, watching them hug while you're sitting there in your pew. In full view of Yahweh/Ialdabaoth and Christ and Buddha and Vishnu and holy Moses and Aphrodite and Kwan Yin and Gaia and the Green Man and baby Jesus and all. But many poly people can't be "out," in church, in school, at work, in their families, without severe repercussions. Loss of family, jobs, even a home if your landlord is a dick.

So many gay and trans and queer folk are killed or commit suicide every day. I don't think poly people are getting murdered or killing themselves nearly as much. We can hide behind a mono and often hetero veil so easily.

I'm rambling here, but there was something about your post that made me feel uneasy.

[Al99]

As I've shared before, I am also kind of a gnostic, but I am allergic to church

Given my spiritual orientation, and my wife's misgivings about her childhood church experience, it is doubtful that we would be attending church either if we did not have a child. And while obviously opinions vary, we both believed that - all things considered - it would be beneficial to raise our daughter in this church - especially one of the progressive, liberal variety. We both believe that this church can provide a positive environment as our daughter grows up - and ultimately she will make her own choice about her spirituality - as we all do ( I was raised in an evangelical fundamentalist church - but don't regret it - even though I abandoned that theology before I turned 18).
Even though I do not subscribe to the official theology of our church, I find that I can enjoy the service in a general sense (although this would not be true in an evangelical setting).

And it might feel ... titillating to see those 3 lesbians and imagine their sexual formations, watching them hug while you're sitting there in your pew. In full view of Yahweh/Ialdabaoth and Christ and Buddha and Vishnu and holy Moses and Aphrodite and Kwan Yin and Gaia and the Green Man and baby Jesus and all.

Well - while I am certainly not beyond being intrigued by the sexual possibilities of a lesbian threesome, I can honestly say that this was not my thought at the time. I noted with interest - obviously - that they appeared to be poly - but found myself warmed by the affections shown - but in the same way I would have been if had been a hetero couple holding hands. And I was also a bit distracted by the thought that my wife was getting laid at the same time. Anyway -Krishna told me - on the sly - that it was all good.

And, on a more serious note - yes, it is very unfortunate that most poly folks must remain closeted for fear of repercussions. It certainly would be quite unfortunate if my wife and I were somehow outed.

Hope everyone has a great week! Al

[FallenAngelina]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

So many gay and trans and queer folk are killed or commit suicide every day. I don't think poly people are getting murdered or killing themselves nearly as much. We can hide behind a mono and often hetero veil so easily.

I guess it's tangential to the discussion, but this is poignant.

[vinsanity0]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

As I've shared before, I am also kind of a gnostic, but I am allergic to church.

I dunno. I'd feel weird having to hip my pastor to my kind of relationship. And it might feel ... titillating to see those 3 lesbians and imagine their sexual formations, watching them hug while you're sitting there in your pew. In full view of Yahweh/Ialdabaoth and Christ and Buddha and Vishnu and holy Moses and Aphrodite and Kwan Yin and Gaia and the Green Man and baby Jesus and all. But many poly people can't be "out," in church, in school, at work, in their families, without severe repercussions. Loss of family, jobs, even a home if your landlord is a dick.

So many gay and trans and queer folk are killed or commit suicide every day. I don't think poly people are getting murdered or killing themselves nearly as much. We can hide behind a mono and often hetero veil so easily.

I'm rambling here, but there was something about your post that made me feel uneasy.

And your post makes me feel uneasy. Why would you reduce a loving relationship to a sexual threesome? Yikes!

Even though I am an Atheist, I think it's fantastic that they have a place they can go worship whatever and feel free to be themselves. The way most church people deal with homosexuality makes me sick.

What I don't get is why people want to belong to a church that doesn't want them as a member? That has to be an awful thing to go through.

[JaneQSmythe]

Originally Posted by vinsanity0

...
What I don't get is why people want to belong to a church that doesn't want them as a member? That has to be an awful thing to go through.

I'm agnostic myself but attended church "religiously" for the 1st 18 years of my life because...parents. The beautiful part, for me, was that we were never pressed to "believe", just attend.

There were parts of church that I loved, the music, the rituals, the candles, being able to sing (in my off-key way) out loud (I love hymns! - especially the old ones). I can't argue that the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament don't warm my soul/conscious - be a good person, help your fellow man, don't judge - how are those lessons wrong? I love the ideas whether they come from Jesus or Buddha! (Or fucking Heinlein for that matter, "thou are god!")

But the parts that I was most drawn too, the parts that I felt mattered, were the parts that focused on "service" to our fellow man. Working in the soup kitchen, collecting clothes for the homeless, donating my pumpkin-selling money to Unicef to get poor kids immunized against fatal yet preventable disease. Today? I don't need to attend church to do these things, I do them every day.

I think that a lot of people would like to believe that there is "more" to our existence than our limited lifespan on this planet. So the church's "promises" on that account are reassuring. I'm not convinced that there is actually anything beyond our "now" - so i have to do the best that i can in the time I have. To make the world a better/happier place.

[Al99]

I love the ideas whether they come from Jesus or Buddha! (Or fucking Heinlein for that matter, "thou are god!")

There are a few select books that comprise my "personal canon" - "Stranger" is among them.

Although I came into the poly world quite unexpectedly and with serious reservations, encountering all the Heinlein fans in the poly community has definitely been one of the positives. Aquafraternally yours, Al

[vinsanity0]

Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe

I'm agnostic myself but attended church "religiously" for the 1st 18 years of my life because...parents. The beautiful part, for me, was that we were never pressed to "believe", just attend.

There were parts of church that I loved, the music, the rituals, the candles, being able to sing (in my off-key way) out loud (I love hymns! - especially the old ones). I can't argue that the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament don't warm my soul/conscious - be a good person, help your fellow man, don't judge - how are those lessons wrong? I love the ideas whether they come from Jesus or Buddha! (Or fucking Heinlein for that matter, "thou are god!")

But the parts that I was most drawn too, the parts that I felt mattered, were the parts that focused on "service" to our fellow man. Working in the soup kitchen, collecting clothes for the homeless, donating my pumpkin-selling money to Unicef to get poor kids immunized against fatal yet preventable disease. Today? I don't need to attend church to do these things, I do them every day.

I think that a lot of people would like to believe that there is "more" to our existence than our limited lifespan on this planet. So the church's "promises" on that account are reassuring. I'm not convinced that there is actually anything beyond our "now" - so i have to do the best that i can in the time I have. To make the world a better/happier place.

I get what you are saying, but I wasn't asking why people go to church. I meant, specifically, why go to a church whose pastor/priest/minister/reverend/whatever and the congregation would not be accepting of your lifestyle, be it homosexual, poly or whatever. I suppose some of it has to do with geography, accepting churches are few and far between.

[JaneQSmythe]

Originally Posted by vinsanity0

I get what you are saying, but I wasn't asking why people go to church. I meant, specifically, why go to a church whose pastor/priest/minister/reverend/whatever and the congregation would not be accepting of your lifestyle, be it homosexual, poly or whatever. I suppose some of it has to do with geography, accepting churches are few and far between.

The church that I attended as a child and teenager never felt hostile to me - perhaps because I knew that while a number of member of the congregation would be aghast at my views on sexuality/abortion/evolution/whathaveyou those weren't actually topics that our congregation focused on and I never saw anyone publicly shunned or called out. (Although I may have been oblivious.) "The Church" (United Methodist for the record) may have had official viewpoints on things but I knew plenty of people that held opposing views and were respected members of the congregation.

I remember once when a door-to-door hawker of a "Christian Cookbook", first, assumed that I was agnostic because I had never "heard the word" and then, upon clarification, assumed that that I had been "driven out" by "those kind" of Christians (presumably not "real" Christians like him).

The idea that someone could be familiar with the bible and various doctrines and have fond fellowship memories of church-going could "choose" to "turn away" from religion was seemingly unfathomable.