Asking for consent in open relationships

feelyunicorn

New member
Directly asking for what you want - whether it be a kiss, sex, or verbal approval - has been slandered, and maligned as 'unromantic' at best, if not downright rude.

In characteristic hetero-mono-normative can`t win, asking for consent is considered too pansy for men; and, too assertive for women. :eek: A real man is supposed to just 'take what he wants', and a lady is supposed to 'wait for Mr. Right'. In other words, hetero-mono-normativity claims passive-aggressiveness to be Holy Grail in getting what you want out of a relationship.

Taking passive-aggressive logic one step further, Prince Charming and Cinderella are supposed to sense, and preemptively divine our wants and innermost feelings without being told or be deemed unfit for a romantic candidate.

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I`ve been asked a few times 'what my pick up line was'. After proving myself wholly inept at hooking up by the usual methods, I must say that I`ve resorted to just asking. When I ask, success isn`t simply defined by getting what I want, but finding out whether partners or potential partners actually want the same.

The last girl I hooked up with began with a "Can I kiss you?" She had a strong, knee-jerk reaction to it, that almost made me jump out of my seat (she`s a coworker who gives me rides on Mondays and Wednesdays), "NO!"

I felt bummed out for a couple days, but eventually recovered. After a couple of weeks went by, she asked me whether I wanted to "have fun", NSA. :D

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I can understand how passive-aggressiveness works for hetero monos. It may even be its price of admission. However, I think in open relationships with multiple partners, asking for consent is essential. I do not see how open relationships can succeed otherwise.

Do you ask directly for what you want? Why do you think asking for consent has been labeled unromantic? Thanks. :)
 
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I guess it depends. I would ask directly for things like "going out", which although it means kissing and sex is actually a euphemism.
In the past, when I have been more direct I have turned men off and given a wrong impression.
I do like discussing what's fine and what isn't once a relationship has started.

However, if I'm going to kiss someone, I'm of the opinion that asking is unromantic. It's absolutely possible to just slowly lean towards the person, go half the way and wait for them to go the other half. If they don't, then it's a no. If they do, they consent.
Same thing with sex, you can start with snuggling and then get friskier, or get up and start undressing and then wait, and see if they ask you to keep unbuttoning that shirt or to button it back up.
You can ask for consent without being so in-your-face and to the point.

My ex would ask if I wanted to have sex. We'd be in the middle of foreplay and suddenly he interrupt it to ask. The answer was always no, because simply by asking, he had just shot down my libido completely, and I couldn't have wanted him less.
So yes, I do think asking in too much detail can be a problem and kill the mood. However I think it's good to know what you want and be confident about it. Just don't ask with words whenever there is another option. Sometimes it's the only way, though, and these times I try to use euphemism because I'm simply more comfortable with them.
 
In the past, when I have been more direct I have turned men off and given a wrong impression.
Too bad it wasn`t me. You would`ve gotten laid. :p There`s no greater turn on to me than a woman who`s super direct. Should I even bother to mention that I like women who curse, have mastery over irony, dig bukkakes, and play sports?


It's absolutely possible to just slowly lean towards the person, go half the way and wait for them to go the other half. If they don't, then it's a no. If they do, they consent.
Same thing with sex, you can start with snuggling and then get friskier, or get up and start undressing and then wait, and see if they ask you to keep unbuttoning that shirt or to button it back up.
Of course, that`s ok too, as well as euphemisms. But, what to do if hints are misunderstood or go unnoticed? Can you really claim that subtlety is always enough? Can you really claim that sex or a relationship are never worthwhile if clarifications are needed?


My ex would ask if I wanted to have sex. We'd be in the middle of foreplay and suddenly he interrupt it to ask. The answer was always no, because simply by asking, he had just shot down my libido completely, and I couldn't have wanted him less.
That was easy...just teasing. ;)

I can`t relate but, hey, whatever works for you.
 
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If subtlety doesn't work, then yes, I would clarify. If I think someone is misinterpreting, I would clarify as well. But I certainly wouldn't interrupt something that is going smoothly as has been done to me.
To be fair, there were other issues with my ex so it was important not to distract me at all when I was in the mood or I would stop being in the mood. Also, it was about phrasing. He would say things like "do you want to make love tonight?" which seemed clumsy at best. If he had said "let's fuck", that would have been less of a turn-off, I think. It would still have seemed weird to state the obvious that way, though.

A female friend of mine once was interested in having sex with a male friend we had in common. She flirted with him a lot and was hoping that one thing would lead to another. Then he suddenly asked in the middle of a flirting session "so, what about a booty call?" and she said it was like a cold shower.

I think in these cases, the problem is that suddenly, you start questioning if the person respects you, will respect you after the sex, is objectifying you, etc. That's what seemed to go through her head and nothing happened between the two of them, which is sad. If he had put his hand on her hip and leaned forward, I'm positive they would have become FWBs.

This being said, once again phrasing might have been in question. If he had told her "you know, I find you really hot, what do you say we go to my place and have some fun?" she probably would have been less shocked and more willing. Of course I can't speak for her.
 
I think in these cases, the problem is that suddenly, you start questioning if the person respects you, will respect you after the sex, is objectifying you, etc. That's what seemed to go through her head and nothing happened between the two of them, which is sad. If he had put his hand on her hip and leaned forward, I'm positive they would have become FWBs.
I don`t know, Ton. Your point is well-taken that verbal consent at the expense of body language may reek of insecurity. But, to consider an awkward turn of phrase a complete deal breaker also seems like insecurity on the receiver`s part.

I think it`s awesome to want confidence in a man, but we weren`t put on Earth to be confident for you, or to compensate for your insecurity. Especially, if the initiation rests on a man`s shoulder, I would think it appropriate to mention your insecurities about being respected prior to having sex, and move on with it. Nothing wrong with explaining to your partner what you`ve just said in this thread, either.

Ok, maybe you`ll need a little time to digest the new information and sex won`t happen that night. But, to rest the fate of a whole relationship on that? C`mon, now. In the end, it`s you and your friend`s loss.

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Obviously, if it were something recurrent after due discussion, then we might be dealing with something more serious. But, whenever a little turn of phrase is in-itself a deal-breaker, a thousand "daddy's princess/Virgin Mary-complex" red flags go up for me.

You seem to also be coming from a very specific unsuccessful experience, and unable to picture a situation when asking for consent is done from a place of confidence and assertiveness. Of a man who`s not afraid of taking "No" for an answer, and who asks exactly because he respects you as a separate entity from his wants and desires.
 
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Oh, I totally think that the reaction I described is bad and is due to sex negativity in our society. I simply stated that it happens. I think it's linked with how women who are portrayed as sexual are also portrayed negatively, as people no to be respected.
I think it's wrong that they are, but that means when a woman is blatantly sees as a sexual object and knows it, there is that concern. Sadly, it can be absolutely founded, there is no lack of men who expect sex to be owed to them for instance, and get upset when they don't get it. These same people tend to have less hangups about being forward than men who are more respectful, and so the association is made, and the woman who was asked becomes cautious. I'm not saying it's fair, but I do believe it's understandable, as females are more at risk, both physically (risk of pregnancy, more at risk for STDs, more at risk for abuse by a male than the other way around) and image-wise (one person saying the wrong thing about you can ruin your career, cost you friendships, etc. And based on sexual activity, these things are more likely to be considered negative in females than males. Consensual activity, I mean, harassment is the other way around).

I don't think it should necessarily be a deal breaker. If I'm really into someone, I doubt it would be. If I could go either way, the phrasing could make the difference though, until I get to know the guy more and get to trust him.
 
Oh, I totally think that the reaction I described is bad and is due to sex negativity in our society. I simply stated that it happens. I think it's linked with how women who are portrayed as sexual are also portrayed negatively, as people no to be respected.
I think it's wrong that they are, but that means when a woman is blatantly sees as a sexual object and knows it, there is that concern. Sadly, it can be absolutely founded, there is no lack of men who expect sex to be owed to them for instance, and get upset when they don't get it. These same people tend to have less hangups about being forward than men who are more respectful, and so the association is made, and the woman who was asked becomes cautious. I'm not saying it's fair, but I do believe it's understandable, as females are more at risk, both physically (risk of pregnancy, more at risk for STDs, more at risk for abuse by a male than the other way around) and image-wise (one person saying the wrong thing about you can ruin your career, cost you friendships, etc. And based on sexual activity, these things are more likely to be considered negative in females than males. Consensual activity, I mean, harassment is the other way around).

I don't think it should necessarily be a deal breaker. If I'm really into someone, I doubt it would be. If I could go either way, the phrasing could make the difference though, until I get to know the guy more and get to trust him.
You raise interesting points. I`ll let others chime in in order not to post whore.
 
Do you ask directly for what you want?

More or less. Yup. I'm a direct kinda gal. I like KISS -- keep it simple, silly.

But I don't say "I want X."

I temper it down a bit to "I'd like to X with you...may I? How would you feel about it?" in the date-y place.

It's only DH that gets the flat out "I want" because the subtle implied "I want X and I expect you to deliver NOW because I'm entitled so GIMMEE!" is kinda a turn on then. :D

Can be a total turn off in other contexts.


Why do you think asking for consent has been labeled unromantic? Thanks.

It's unromantic if your idea of "asking for consent" is a brusque "I want X" approach. That is not asking for anything. May as well be "I want potato chips!" Are you talking to another person or a thing? I know I am not potato chips!

It's more romantic if the question is actually ASKED. "I'd like X with you... may I?" or "I find the idea of X with you appealing... how would you feel about that?" You are engaging with me as a person, asking my thoughts and feedback. Not diving into my pants like I'm potato chips you suddenly felt like having. Again... "I know I'm not potato chips? DO YOU?" would be what would pop up in my head if I was in that situation.

It's possible to be direct with a little finesse and not come off all "GRRR! Thor hungry! Thor want EAT!" about it. It's not the concept of asking for consent up front that is unromantic. It's HOW that is done.

Once a guy who was upset I dropped him called me up drunk. At the break up I thought it was just too bad we didn't line up in commonalities. I liked him fine but he seemed to be looking for wife and I was not ready for that nor wanting that type rship then. I wanted something more open, more poly. So... not lining up, that's all.

He got all stupid drunk in his upset and disappointment and then called me from the bar and wailed "Why does DH-then-BF get to poke you and I can't?" I was horrified. Like THAT was going to put him ranking higher on my liking-you meter? Because our rship didn't get to that level? And I'm not a bag of potato chips just anyone can snack on? Sheesh. He apologized for his behavior later when he wasn't drunk and I forgave him but lordy... did that ever UNDERLINE why I thought he was NOT cut out for poly with me or what? :eek:

GG
 
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LOL. I dunno, man. I thought that was the point? I dowanna resume talking to Thorg(s)!

Eeeeek! Run awaaaaaay! ;)

GG
 
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It's more romantic if the question is actually ASKED. "I'd like X with you... may I?" or "I find the idea of X with you appealing... how would you feel about that?" You are engaging with me as a person, asking my thoughts and feedback.
The sentence in bold is exactly what I mean by 'asking for consent', and I think it`s implied in the expression itself. I don`t know why, but people usually tend to assume both extremes upon hearing it. Some think it`s sissy and insecure; others think it`s near-rape.

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Edit: I think the misunderstanding...

a) from the asking-is-sissy camp comes from partners who have already been given consent, but do not trust that it`s been given to them;

b) from the asking-is-rape camp comes from partners who feel entitled to a "Yes!"

But...I would say that neither insecurity nor entitlement are intrinsic to asking for consent.
 
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Well, I'm viewing from my lens as a woman. That plays in here. :)

Some think it`s sissy and insecure; others think it`s near-rape.

Who is "some" here? People in general? Some men? Some women?

Cuz as a woman I NEVER thought double checking on the consent was a sissy thing to do. I viewed it as respectful of me.

Ok, maybe sometimes annoying if it is quadruple checked, but hey, I'll take extra checks, reassure and hope the person understands that YEAH! I said OK! I rather be mildly annoyed than be raped. I'd PREFER negotiate relationship as sane equals but... dude. Guys are bigger than me. My dating risk includes that sad reality factor.

And as a dating woman in the 20's decade... my experience was what it was.

a) Thor hungry, thor want eat! (creepy, brusque, immediate red flag.)

b) Ask more than once for consent (could get mildly annoying but infinitely preferable to creepy. The INTENT is repsectful of me as a person, so ok, I'll work with it and see what might be here or what... could still red flag but at least not Thorgy.)

c) once, maybe twice, did I experience some magic brewing with a 20's man that pitched it to me at the right notch like we were sane, consenting, equal partners trying to negotiate something.

It is what it is. I've not dated in my 30's because we're closed. So.... *shrug*

GG
 
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Well, I'm viewing from my lens as a woman.
Clearly. Since, I could hardly understand what the hell you were talking about. :p The parts I did understand I have already addressed in my previous post.

Much luck to you. ;)

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People in general?
You got it.

Guys are bigger than me.
I`ll be sympathetic to that fact, as long as your supposed fragility is not used as a bullying tool against me, much like white people who lock their car doors when they see a black man crossing the street even though the guy`s got a Rolex on his wrist; as if to send a message.
 
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I could hardly understand what the hell you were talking about.

LOL. You sound alien to me too. I had to back up again. And I can still hardly understand. ;)

I'm amused because I've come to this place with people a few times before.

Look! It's a pretty bowl with some fish!
Look! It's a bowl with some pretty fish!
Look at the pretty bowl, darn it!
Look at the pretty fish, already!

And the thing that is needed is to step back and acknowledge there is indeed a bowl with some fish in the room.

Pretty-factor TBD on eye of beholder. :D

I can understand how passive-aggressiveness works for hetero monos. It may even be its price of admission.

I don't even see how passive aggressive works for ANYONE wanting to be in a healthy rship. That kind of thing is a drag. How does it work? (show me possible fish please. I no see. #boggled )

However, I think in open relationships with multiple partners, asking for consent is essential. I do not see how open relationships can succeed otherwise

Of course. Is this not a big ol' DUH? :D No mono rship will fly well without it either. (Yes... I see the bowl in the room....and? )

I`ll be sympathetic to that fact, as long as your supposed fragility is not used as a bullying tool against me, much like white people who lock their car doors when they see a black man crossing the street; as if to send a message.

Amused. I'm not a delicate flower type. Why would I pull a melodramatic swoon to play out mind games? Much faster to tell the person what I feel straight up.

But yeah, I'm also not looking to get into creepy dark too lonely places with a Thorg-y type man either. Dates happen in nice open places and everyone BYO car to location until some trust thing is formed and the rship moves forward a bit. Poly dating is not immune to weirdo people floating around in it -- male or female.

GG
 
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LOL. You sound alien to me too. I had to back up again. And I can still hardly understand. ;)

Of course. Is this not a big ol' DUH? :D
It's just become pretty clear to me why you`re having dating problems. There`s no envying your boyfriend, to be sure.
 
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It's just become pretty clear to me why you`re having dating problems. There`s no envying your boyfriend, to be sure.

Kinda mean there, dude. (For record: we're closed. I'm not in a dating space right now.)

But ok, I accidentally hit a nerve. I'll own that, and then I have to apologize to you for accidentally your hurting feelings somehow. I was not my intent. I am sincerely sorry. :(

I thought we were just having a good time kicking around general ideas in the realm of "Isn't poly dating sometimes so weird? Wassup on that consent thing?" like a casual banter in the "General Poly Discussion" area of the forum. *shrug*

Next time though, I'd rather you just tell me -- "Um... starting to hit a nerve. You doing that on purpose or what?" to help clarify rather than to try to my hurt feelings on purpose. That's not cool, dude.

But I'll own my part on this one if I was just being too goofball for you. My bad. Again my apologies.

Peace.
GG
 
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However, if I'm going to kiss someone, I'm of the opinion that asking is unromantic. It's absolutely possible to just slowly lean towards the person, go half the way and wait for them to go the other half. If they don't, then it's a no.

Part of the rush for me is reading peoples' body language and then sense that you're both singing the same song, without necessarily having to say it right away. On a subconscious level too, I think it's a big bonus when another person's actions are matching yours, it's like signalling to your lizard brain that you both want the same thing/are of the same clan/etc.

It can also be super awkward to figure out how to bring words into action since they're two different types of communication. Personally it feels weird to go from: "May I kiss you?" to the act of kissing. Anything that happens after speech almost has a timeline to it, like you can't lead in by caressing someone or giving a massage or anything. If you ask to kiss them then the next action has to be a kiss. For me that takes out some of the spontaneity.

Can there be a balance though? Like can body language get us to a certain point and then words can help move us into the next stage of intimacy? Thoughts?
 
Well, I'm viewing from my lens as a woman.
Clearly. Since, I could hardly understand what the hell you were talking about.
LOL. You sound alien to me too. I had to back up again. And I can still hardly understand.
This may be less a case of gender differences than it is of sentence structure. GG, you seem to go off on stream of consciousness jaunts from time to time, and when you write in your own personal shorthand you are difficult to follow.
 
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