Your partner's ethics . . .

I have another relationship ethics question....

How important is it to you that your partner adhere to the same ethical standards as you -- when it comes to their other relationships?

Ponytail and I disagree on what constitutes "cheating." Ponytail has been in a relationship with a married woman before. He doesn't know if her husband knew -- to him, it doesn't matter because he had no relationship with the husband and therefore had no ethical obligations to the husband. He believes that relationship agreements should only pertain to the people in the relationship -- so if she was cheating on her husband, that's her breaking her relationship agreements. And if she and her husband had some kind of open arrangement, then that's fine too, but it isn't his issue to worry over.

My sister's friend is in a similar situation. She and her husband have an open relationship, but her boyfriend has a girlfriend in another country who doesn't know about his relationship with my sister's friend. My sister's friend doesn't seem to have any issue with the fact that he's cheating on his girlfriend with her -- to her, it's his responsibility to manage that relationship, not hers.

I must say that while I understand this line of thinking (that you are only responsible for honoring the agreements of your own relationships), it unnerves me a bit. I would not be okay with having a relationship with someone whose other partner didn't know. Ponytail's relationship with the married woman was something like 8 years ago, so it's not a pertinent issue at the moment. But it is still a pretty significant difference in the way that we view relationships.

And it makes me wonder -- if (in present day) Ponytail ended up having a relationship with someone whose partner didn't know, how would I feel? Would that be a hard limit for me too? If my partner's partner was cheating? What about if my partner's partner's partner was cheating? At what point is it no longer my business?

(I've posted this in General Poly Discussions because, although I used my personal relationship experience as an example, I'm not really asking for advice about my situation with Ponytail. I am mostly just looking for discussion on the topic of your relationship ethics versus your partner's relationship ethics.)
 
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I'm "unethical" in that I leave it to my friends and lovers to manage their side of the arrangement. I'll adapt to their needs, be it carefully selected modes of communication or them having to go off the radar for a while.
 
One hard lesson I've learned from some ex-partners is that how they behave in their relationships with other people is inevitably going to be how they behave in their relationship with me.

I would not be ok with a partner being in a relationship that's being kept secret from me. If my partner is ok with enabling a secret that's held against another person, then I would have a difficult time trusting that they wouldn't at some point be ok with enabling a secret that's held against me.

And I'm uncomfortable with partners holding different standards of behaviour with different people in their network. That's not to be confused with holding different boundaries with different partners that are agreed by both of them. It has to do with the standard of their own behaviour toward each person. If they think it's ok to lie to a metamour because they don't know them, but it's not ok to like to someone they know, then that feels like a double standard to me.

I don't know to what point that becomes a dealbreaker with me- that depends on a lot of other factors- but when these situations have happened to me in the past, I have found myself wishing I had made it a dealbreaker sooner than I eventually did.
 
There's also the "angry husband with a baseball bat at your front door" angle to consider.
 
I must say that while I understand this line of thinking (that you are only responsible for honoring the agreements of your own relationships), it unnerves me a bit. I would not be okay with having a relationship with someone whose other partner didn't know.

I must confess I've been on ALL sides of this situation - i.e.

--- I've been cheated ON when I was younger.
--- I've emotionally cheated (albeit, this is a difficult one to define, as my ex-husband and I were living apart for some years and have officially separated since, and he was also emotionally involved with someone else at the time).
--- My current girlfriend was technically cheating with me at the beginning, although she and her husband had stopped being physically intimate many years ago (his choice) and they have since separated.

Like you, I find cheating scenarios distasteful and unnerving. Real life is complicated, however, and imbued with shades of grey. I wouldn't cheat on - or with - a person who is fully invested in the relationship, or whose partner is invested, and have never gone into a situation like that unless I know the existing relationship is "done", except for the practicalities of divorcing etc. (In my gf's Boho's case, she felt "stuck" in a sexless, loveless marriage she couldn't leave because they were raising a grandchild together. That situation has now resolved.)

Would that be a hard limit for me too? If my partner's partner was cheating? What about if my partner's partner's partner was cheating? At what point is it no longer my business?

I understand your dilemma, however it's true that the responsibility for upholding agreements between partners rests with the particular people in the partnership themselves. You may not approve of their actions, but it's neither ethical nor even possible to monitor and take responsibility for everyone ELSE'S behaviour and choices in life.

I mean, what if you called someone out for cheating... causing a partner to break up with a metamour, say, and you were wrong?? Or didn't have all the information about that particular dyad's relationship? You can really only control your OWN behaviour... and set boundaries with YOUR own partners. You cannot force them to set boundaries with, take action against, or demand they drop a relationship because you don't like what their partner's partner is doing. It's just not realistic.

The only way you might be able to address such a situation is by talking to the person/people directly, and airing your concerns, but this would probably be breaching privacy agreements between yourself and your own partner (because they've probably told you about their OSO's situation in confidence.) And the other person/people are not obligated to give your opinion any weight since they are not in a relationship with YOU and may not even know you.
 
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I pretty much view it as Ponytail does. I would hope a partner of mine wouldn't openly cheat, but each circumstance is different. And, like Emm pointed out, there is always that possibility of drama leaking into your relationship.
 
And it makes me wonder -- if (in present day) Ponytail ended up having a relationship with someone whose partner didn't know, how would I feel? Would that be a hard limit for me too? If my partner's partner was cheating? What about if my partner's partner's partner was cheating? At what point is it no longer my business?
I like to think it would be a limit for me, but I'm not sure if I would really act on it if I loved that person. I would probably strongly oppose it verbally and I would have to have all these ethics discussions with my partner. If it wasn't the only issue it might become the breaking point where I lose respect for my partner's integrity and break up.

I value trust highly, therefore I value honesty and openness highly. I my partner was involved with a cheater, that would mean that he's bringing an untrustworthy person into the network as my metamour. I would mind that.

There's also the danger of the cheating causing a breakup in which case you're left with a metamour who might be latching to your partner as her new "monogamous" companion.

Yeah, I wouldn't trust the situation at all and I couldn't really respect the people involved.

There would be shades of grey, like whether it's an ongoing love affair or just 2-3 meetups, or whether the other relationship is practically dead or not, has kids or not etc.
 
I recently had to make a decision about getting involved with someone who, in terms of personality, kink interests, and sexual chemistry (perceived, not experienced), is almost EXACTLY what I'm looking for in a partner.

What held me back was that he told me his wife doesn't know that he sees other people.

He explained the reasons behind that. I understand why he doesn't tell her, and why he doesn't consider ending the marriage to be a valid option, and why he doesn't want to feel forced to live a life that goes counter to who he believes he is and what he believes he needs. I lived a monogamous, vanilla life for most of my adult life, until just over five years ago, and I remember well how painful that was for me, and how *wrong* I felt in that life.

And I confess that there was a time I did cheat on Hubby, shortly after we moved in together (well before we were even engaged), when I reconnected with an old interest. We didn't have sex, but came uncomfortably close. Fortunately for me, Hubby forgave it when I told him. At the time, I told Hubby I wished I could be in a relationship with him *and* one with my friend, because that was what felt right to me. Hubby said there was no way he would be okay with that, so I dropped the subject and stopped spending time alone with my friend. (Three and a half years later, *Hubby* was the one who said he thought it would be good for me to see other guys.)

A conversation with that friend about the situation revealed that in his world-view, it would only have been cheating if Hubby and I had been married at the time. As far as he was concerned, prior to having that legal life commitment, anything was fair game, but he wouldn't have a relationship with or even hook up with a married woman even if her spouse said it was okay with them.

So because of my own experience, I get what the guy I know now is up against, and I understand why he made the choice he made. I don't necessarily *agree* with it, but I do understand it.

I discussed this situation with Hubby after the guy asked if we could be nonsexual kink "play partners" rather than getting involved in a full-fledged relationship or any kind of sexual connection. Hubby's take was that even that would constitute the guy cheating on his wife. But he also said that as far as he was concerned, if I chose to get involved with the guy anyway, I wouldn't be doing anything wrong; the guy's cheating is an issue between him and his wife, and I'm not responsible for his wife or for his behavior.

I don't see it that way. Having been in the guy's shoes, and knowing how much I hurt Hubby when I cheated, even though he downplayed it, I can't put myself in the position of being the one someone is cheating *with*. I want to live by the concept of "Harm none," and if his wife were to find out, it would hurt her. Not to mention I've had more than my fill of drama revolving around women who get pissed at me about guys, and I won't put myself in the potential line of fire for that either.

As for how I would feel if I found out one of my partners was involved with someone who was cheating on a spouse or other partner... This is purely hypothetical, because I don't actually know how I would feel, not having been in the situation. But I *believe* that while I wouldn't agree with their choice, I also wouldn't consider it any of my business. There are some choices a partner might make that would be a total dealbreaker for me, but I don't think getting involved with someone who's cheating would be one of them. I would probably ask not to be told anything about that relationship beyond it existing, and I wouldn't want to meet that metamour because I wouldn't trust myself not to act judgmental, but I doubt I would leave my partner over it.

So, long answer to a short question... It's important to me that my partners conduct all of their relationships according to some variation of "Don't intentionally harm other people." But "not intentionally harming" is somewhat open to interpretation, and they might have a different take on it than I do, as with Hubby's take on the situation with the guy I know. As long as they aren't doing something that steps on one of my emotional land mines, they do their thing and I do mine. If they do something that treads on one of those land mines, they can still do their thing, but my thing would have to involve ending the relationship for the sake of my mental health.
 
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I suppose that if my partner's partner (my metamour) were cheating on someone, I would consider that far enough removed from me to let that slide. As it happens, my metamour, my partner, and I all live in the same house and I'm good friends with my metamour, so the situation's a little bit different. Also we are in a closed V, so if my metamour had sex with someone outside our V that would already be cheating on my partner. But even that, I'd probably try not to get involved.
 
I can't know for sure until I was in this situation.... but I *feel* like this would be a deal-breaker for me.

Honesty is SUPER important to me, and participating in a cheating arrangement and enabling someone to be a liar is still horrible behavior to me. So sure, someone else's relationship is theirs to manage, but I'm not interesting in being with someone who's so willing to be a part of the action that is treating someone else so poorly.

Super important to that is that if my meta is willing to cheat on one of their partners, it increases the likelihood that they're willing to cheat on all of their partners and lie to them. And lies that involve the sexual health of my polycule are not tolerable. So no thanks.

I mean, would they be ok dating an abuser as long as the person was abusing someone else and not them? A racist as long as it wasn't their race? Just..... yuck yuck yuck. Feels too much like bending your own morals and ethics in order to get laid.
 
I do not have partners whose ethics do not mesh up with my own.
 
I do not have partners whose ethics do not mesh up with my own.

Yeah, I feel the same. There's also an attraction factor for me. The ethics of a person figures highly into my attraction to them. If they start behaving in a way that doesn't match up with my ethics, they start becoming a lot less attractive to me.
 
Yeah, I feel the same. There's also an attraction factor for me. The ethics of a person figures highly into my attraction to them. If they start behaving in a way that doesn't match up with my ethics, they start becoming a lot less attractive to me.

I've experienced that as well.
 
One of the most important things to me is my integrity. I do not have people in my life including my own family whose ethics do not mesh up with mine.
 
There's also the "angry husband with a baseball bat at your front door" angle to consider.

This was my first thought. Say Dude's new girlfriend is cheating on her husband, husband finds out and shows up at my house and shoots MrS by mistake :eek: We three live together so the chances of drama showing up at the doorstep seems more likely then if we didn't.

One step further removed - i.e. Dude's new girlfriend's other boyfriend is cheating on his girlfriend - and I feel we are out of firing range.

Ethically, the person doing the cheating is responsible for the cheating but choosing to be in a relationship with a cheater has consequences. I think this is more of an issue if it is an ongoing relationship - a one night stand? I'm not sure the conversation would drill down that deep.:rolleyes:
 
I’ve seen the hurt and devastation cheating has caused, and would never want to be a part of it again. For me, it mostly comes down to my kids. (I know not everyone has them, or they’re grown). If my husband were dating a person who we knew was cheating on their other partner, and wanted to continue it, I would start disentangling and distancing myself and our kids pretty quick. Because you don’t know what sort of fallout will come, and I don’t want my kids mixed up in that. Yes, safety would be a big thing for me. People can become ruthless and irrational when hurt. What if the offended spouse finds out and shows up on our doorstep looking to do great harm, and harms one of my unsuspecting children. These things always have a way of being found out. I would not be the one to bring it to light, I would highly encourage my husband to really think about the risk not only to him and his partner, but his family as well. But in the end, he makes his choices, she makes her choices, but my kids don’t have a choice, so I will do what is necessary. I don’t care what the excuses are. This could be my mama bear catastophic thinking, but to me it’s not a risk I’m willing to thrust upon those who cannot consent to such risk.

If we didn’t have kids, I would probably still remove myself from the situation because I don’t wish to be party to that kind of hurt on another person. I’ve been there, been the cheater, and it sucks the life out of everyone around you. I’m grateful my husband was gracious enough to give me a chance to fix things, and he wished no ill-will or violence. We all healed. But not everyone would react in such a way. I’ve seen very irrational reactions to all sorts of issues, so I know the levels some people may to go. I changed because I want to be a better person and example to the little eyes watching me.

Now, if it is my husband’s partner’s partner who is doing the cheating, that I think is far enough removed from myself and the family. I still wouldn’t agree with it, maybe counsel my husband about if he really wants to be in a mix like that. Of course in all scenarios, barriered protection would be required with me.
 
I am 100% not interested in being in a relationship where all parties aren't fully consenting. I do not want to be a secret. I want to be able to go out with my partners in public and not worry who is seeing us.

Also, given the stuff I like to enjoy in BDSM, honestly and trustworthiness is paramount. I would be uncomfortable being with anyone who is okay breaking their relationship agreements, period.
 
I just don't care. Jeffry Dahmer, Charles Manson, I let them put the handcuffs on me as soon as I get in the car. Ethics don't matter, the important thing is, well, we like the same television programs or something.

/reducto ad absurdum

We are instructed, in books on abusive personalities, to watch carefully how they treat other people, but most importantly: people who are viewed as having a lower station in life.

Wait staff. Garbage men. Janitors or doormen, etc. Here is EXACTLY that situation: the spouse who is being cheated on.

How we view them says a lot more about us than it does about them. If we look down on them, that's all a thinking person needs to know about us.

We make them an "unperson" to use Orwell's term. We "invalidate" them or "dehumanize" them to use terms in literature on manipulation.

We have to listen to what people tell us. Listen to them justify their actions by dehumanizing someone. That's what is in store for us. People are objects to attain ends. Not things you can experience empathy for.

I have turned in two cheaters to their spouses that I can think of off-hand. Both turned out to be exactly what was needed for someone to do. I don't cotton to this. I won't go out of my way: one was my brother and the other a girlfriend. I did not know about him, he did not know about me. Until I saw a text I should not have seen. Those were very definitely my business. I want my brother or a girlfriend keeping me in line when I slip up too.

It isn't poly when it is underhanded and deceitful. You have to lie to someone and a lie by omission is just a coward's way of lying. Omitting to the spouse that you are banging his wife/husband, whatever.

If a woman proved to me that her husband (or wife) was completely cool with poly but just didn't want to know any details... fine. But that isn't what we are talking about here.

This kind of conspiracy against the unknowing spouse requires restricting where you can go, when you can be together, who can see you, what you say to people, and no matter what you do it is inevitable that you will be found out.

In any poly relationship there are scheduling issues, but not sneaking-around scheduling issues. You don't have to weave a lie together in order to have sex. Or catch a movie together or whatever.

It is a much better way to live in the long run.
 
I admit, when I was new to "poly" I knowingly dated a guy who was cheating on his wife.

His wife had a mental illness that made her into a very unpleasant person. But she "couldn't" work or drive or shop or do anything around the house, no cooking, no cleaning, nothing. And she hadn't wanted sex with this guy in years.

Their teen son, late highschool and early college when I was seeing the father, was also afflicted by the same mental illness and so much trouble for this guy.

He was loyal to both and worked hard at a 9-5 job and then did all the things around the house, and helped his son socially and around school issues as much as he could. He basically was a slave, had no life, very little fun or time for a social life of his own.

And his wife just acted like a complete bitch to him.

So we met online and just started talking. He was a very sweet, intelligent guy, and very supportive of me in my newly divorced state. (I'd been married and mono 30 years til just recently.) The talk turned kinda sexual and we eventually met up 3 or 4 times. He lived a 3 hour drive away, in another state.

He didn't want to leave his wife, since she was so medically and psychologically unable to face life. He wanted to ask about opening the marriage so he could have sex and cuddles from another person. But he was afraid she'd flip out and get even sicker.

So I felt bad for him. We had this mostly online relationship a couple years. Finally he felt too guilty. And I felt bad that he felt guilty. So we broke up.

A year or so later he contacted me and told me he had finally gotten the courage to ask his wife about opening up, and she said OK, and it didn't harm her. He wanted to know if I wanted to start up again. I felt that chapter was closed so politely declined. We talked just a little for a while. He found a lover.

I didn't feel in any danger that his wife would find out about us. And she had no power to make my life miserable. I feel I did help this guy, since he finally did get what he wanted, an open relationship.

So, to me, it was an ethical grey area. Since then, I have not and would not, date a cheater, or even a person suggesting a DADT thing. My standards have changed.
 
I admit, when I was new to "poly" I knowingly dated a guy who was cheating on his wife.

You've had a lot of great things to say on different topics.

Gosh, it does show what you intend about grey areas. I am far from perfect and have made some big mistakes in life too. Not grey areas, I just made bad decisions, lol.

So we try our best. And I see there is a lot of care around here about being ethical and that warms me.
 
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