Help Please!

holm

New member
Hi,

I am a monogomist, been married for 5 years, dating/engaged 3 years before that. I have no desire to have a relationship with anyone other than my wife (of course I do fantasize, but in terms of relationship, I don't want anyone other than my wife). Over the past few weeks I became aware of an emotional relationship my wife has been having with a male friend. I told her it made me uncomfortable, etc....This led to two weeks of arguing and fighting and me snooping on her emails which confirmed for me that this relationship really was an emotional affair (in my opinion). While we were arguing she would email him at work and he would be giving her reasons to choose him over me. She also verblly confirmed when we were fighting she did have feelings for him, but that she loves me and is married to me. I went to a counselor myself and she told me to forget about the suspected emotional affair (which she said she wouldn't confirm or deny without talking to my wife) because the problem was not the other guy, it was me and my not meeting her needs. Took that to heart, didn't talk to my wife about it for a week as this was just making her mad, stopped snooping, etc... We also started a marriage counseling session but so far we've only taken a inventory that will be used for the counselor to have some talking points.

Last night my wife and I were discussing some of the things on the inventory that we thought would be brought up in counseling and somehow I brought up something she had said to me when we were fighting. She said she doesn't know if "there is one person in the world for everyone." I probed to kind of figure out what she meant. I said, if we never met would we have found someone else...I think so, but now that we have each other that's all I want. I could tell that isn't exactly what she meant and she really kind of clammed up when I pushed a little more and started to get mad. I said that the counselor told me that I didn't have to get all her emotional needs from me (which I agree with) except for 100% of her sexual needs unless we had an open marriage. Teh counselor said I did have to meet at lest 80% of her needs or we were in trouble. She responded that she didn't want an open marriage very quickly, and I believe her. All this led to me moping around all night which she hates.

anyways, I've got two questions I guess. First, the story I'm starting to tell myself in my head is that my wife may want to have a romantic relationship with me AND this other man. I am not willing to accept this (even if the other relationship has no sex). How do I bring up the subject with my wife without her getting mad? What kind of non threatening questions can I ask, or do I just have to wait for her to bring it up? I really want to know how she feels, even if it hurts me. I love her and want her to be happy, but I also need to be happy myself.

The second question is: Now that I think she has started to think about the possibility of this other man, even if she decides that isn't what she wants do you think we can go forward? If so, how? all the marriage websites say no contact with the other man. My heart tells me that if that doesn't happen her feelings for him will never go away, but if I tell her this I think it will just drive her to him.

I found this website because I was searching for some way to understand what I think my wife is going through and I thought this fit. Even though I am a monogomist I do respect other people's decision and freedom, I just know in my heart that I wouldn't be able to handle a poly arrangement at all...any advice sure would be appreciated! It would be especially nice if you told me I was nuts, needed to get on some meds and that all this was in my head, but unfortunately I trust my heart.
 
Hi,

While we were arguing she would email him at work and he would be giving her reasons to choose him over me. She also verblly confirmed when we were fighting she did have feelings for him, but that she loves me and is married to me. I went to a counselor myself and she told me to forget about the suspected emotional affair (which she said she wouldn't confirm or deny without talking to my wife) because the problem was not the other guy, it was me and my not meeting her needs. .

Wow, I totally sympathise with you but because of the statements above I find myself too emotional to offer constructive advice vice destructive advice.

Snooping is a touchy subject because although everyone has a right to privacy, everyone also has a right to be respected and be treated with honesty and openess (you were not)

I feel for you

Peace and Love
Mono
 
Thanks for the sympathy....

Yeah, I feel like crap for snooping but that's the only way I had enough background to talk to my wife. I haven't snooped AT ALL in a week which has been really tough. My wife tells me she is "doing what I asked" (not talking to him). I don't know if I believe, but I'm trying not to dwell on it. She has told me about 2 texts they sent back and forth this week about a mutual friend who's wife had surgery, so I do appreciate her being honest. I'm intentionally not asking her if she's talking to him. I do not want to come across as controlling at all. I want her to want to not talk to him and I guess the only way to do that is keep working at it.

Been reading a lot of posts on this forum, very intersting....and by the way, I disagree with those that say a poly relationship is more work...a mono relationship is VERY HARD TOO!! ;)

I think I've just got to be patient and be there to support her as she thinks things through. I have to figure out that I will love her no matter what, but I can't be part of a relationship that involves another person.
 
I think I've just got to be patient and be there to support her as she thinks things through. I have to figure out that I will love her no matter what, but I can't be part of a relationship that involves another person.

Be honest with her and yourself is all I can say. What will be, will be..take care
 
ARGH!!! I typed up a very well stated reply and hit the wrong button... Now I am going to wonder if I covered all my bases....

First and foremost, you have to tell her how you feel about having an open marriage. It doesn't matter if it upsets her or not. You are upset that she's had this emotional affair. it's not a tit for tat either, it's a married couple sharing needs and concerns.

Secondly, for him to tell her even once that she should pick him over her should be a huge red flag for both of you that this will never be a polyamorous relationship. Polyamory is about building the extended family in love, not picking sides etc... Picture having your wife in an exact duplicate. You wouldn't build one up more than the other and you wouldn't break one down. It's about love. If it's just about sex, it's swinging.

Thirdly (or whatever), RELATIONSHIPS PERIOD are hard. The hardest part is communicating needs and wants. The second hardest part is understanding that your needs and wants are sometimes not supposed to be part of a relationship (your wife needs to accept and appreciate that you won't have part of an open relationship). You have to make your needs known and listen and understand hers too.

I am speaking from the view of your wife as well. I am an ass who ended up having an affair (emotional and physical). I used to hate when friends would tell me about cheating on their wife or girlfriend. It was selfish of me but I can honestly say that I love both my wife and the woman I had an affair with. We no longer talk or hang out. I miss her deeply too. The people of this board helped me realize that I was being an ass and that I was wrong. What I did was not polyamory, it was cheating. I am working on my marriage now and will continue to focus on that until we are right. At that point, I may bring up my feelings and come clean to what happened.

I am also a person that understands that needs and wants change over time. There was a time when I would have fought another guy for looking at my wife with lust. Then I found that during our marriage, we agreed to swing with a married couple that we knew. I went from ready-to-fight to ready-to-watch. The odd thing is that even with swinging, I didn't think I could ever love another woman like I love my wife. We had a hardfast rule while swinging, no kissing. That was because it was so personal and could lead to emotions etc... Well, here I am now. Telling you that I am a convert and know that for a fact, I love two women. In the few short months

There is an EXTREMELY SMALL chance that if you and your wife discuss this out completely you may find that you have changed too. You might find that polyamory isn't bad for you both (but not with this guy) and take your relationship to a whole different level. Even if that isn't the outcome, at least you will have discussed it and understand eachother.

Finally, You mentioned that your counselor made reference to "it was me and my not meeting her needs". You either need to find another counselor or listen more carefully to what they say. Unless you said that you were clearly not providing a need (I don't hold her, I don't kiss her, I don't tell her I love you) it sounds like they already chose a side (wrong for them to do) or you didn't listen to what they were saying. Either way, communicate, communicate, communicate with your wife. If whatever counselor you choose tells you differently, find another one. That should be (and will most likely be) the focus of your counseling.
 
Holm,
ok snooping is wrong altho understandable in this scenario. i'm going to play devils advocate of sorts here...

firstly, perhaps she is trying to "come out of the closet" to you but simply lacks the words or maybe even the labels to describe what she feels. maybe she is poly, maybe she isn't. i know there are a few support groups out there for poly-mono relationships if indeed she is and i can email a few of them to you.
but is this a poly-mono relationship? i don't know. only your wife really will know.
being open and honest to each other is key. you need to talk this though. all of it.
maybe the alleged emotional affair (i say alleged only because it isnt coming from her but you... no offense meant ok?) is her way of reaching out and trying to get something she feels lacks in your relationship. this may be a time to rekindle and get back to basics and figure out where the disconnect is in the relationship.
thirdly, you need to be honest with yourself. you married her, you're monogamist and you never intended her to fall in love with somebody else.... what do you want? if she is poly, and that is a HUGE if (because we are talking to you afterall) then are you able to handle emotionally her with another man... what is best for you and her? what do you want? how do you feel? have your feelings changed about monogamy?
talk not only to her, but also ...to your own heart. be honest with yourself. the heart, never lies.
listen, only you and your wife can figure this out. all i know is something brought you two together and there seems to be a disconnect someplace.
i beg you two to not use poly as a reason to replace something that is missing in a core relationship, as it only leads to more harm down the road. IF THAT IS THE CASE. which it may not be....
if indeed she is poly, it is a beleif in her heart and as such she isnt seeking others because she lacks something, she is seeking other because well.... i dont know. thats something only she could answer.... it is differnet for us all...but essentially we all believe the same thing... you can and do fall in love with more then one person at one time and that indeed there isnt just one person out there that is "meant" for you....
i wish you both the best, and we are ALL HERE FOR YOU BOTH. ask questions away, seek out advice, explore... experience.... you're in a crisis right now and i'll be damned if anybody here turns away somebody who is confused, lost, and hurting.. because whether your wife is poly or not Holm, we've all felt that way and we understand. we've all gone along this same path of exploration before ( some of us as the poly partners and others as the monogamist partners...)
keep asking... keep searching.... keep talking....

ps: your therapist sounds very shall we say... direct but if i may say, forgetting is never the answer when it comes to cheating. even emotional cheating. there is a difference between dealing & then moving on and just flat out dropping it and forgetting... trust me, i know from personal experience simply forgetting doesnt work, it leads to more trouble down the road because you never dealt with the problem when it first came up. ok?
maybe this is a one time thing for her. maybe she is discovering something about herself. or maybe its something more... i dont know. but we're here for you.... i hope you can figure this out
take care
(((hugs)))
 
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Thanks again for the support. I know I'm just grasping at straws a little bit here....

Finally, You mentioned that your counselor made reference to "it was me and my not meeting her needs". You either need to find another counselor or listen more carefully to what they say. Unless you said that you were clearly not providing a need (I don't hold her, I don't kiss her, I don't tell her I love you) it sounds like they already chose a side (wrong for them to do) or you didn't listen to what they were saying.

Good point about the counselor, but the context was more like she told me stop obsessing cause it didn't help at all and was just driving my wife to the other guy at this point. I just needed to focus on what I could actually control, which is my actions. I can't control what my wife feels or the other guy, it breaks my heart of course, but I know you can't help how you feel. The counselor told me to basically to back off the conversations with my wife but she said that the marriage counselor we will be seeing together does need to know about all of it (as well as the snooping) or that person won't be able to help us fully.

I get the feeling my wife wants to just forget any of this happened, but like you all said, that's not a good idea. This is a great opportunity for our relationship to grow....

Honestly I had never thought about poly (or even knew about it) before this. It just seems like something that isn't for me and I think that's all there is to it. I'm an extreme introvert and honestly don't need ANY friends other than my wife (hmmm...says the guy who's talking to strangers about his problems). She DOES need friends. I need to figure out how to be a part of that part of her life while still giving her space or if we make it through this crisis it will probably just happen again...
 
Work on the marriage in counseling (possibly bring up the term there). Once it is solid again, then you can bring polyamory up if it is something you really want to delve into discussing with her.

I get the feeling my wife wants to just forget any of this happened, but like you all said, that's not a good idea. This is a great opportunity for our relationship to grow....

sounds like she's not Poly and just made a mistake.

The other thing... You mentioned you are an introvert discussing this issue with a bunch of strangers. The anonymity of the internet is a strange thing isn't it. :D
 
I agree with what a lot of people have said here. Basically, I think that you have to get your relationship with your wife good before you open it. Opening it tends to cause new stress at first, so you need things to be good.

I think you both need to come out and say what you want. Let it be in a way that you are both free to say what you feel without judging each other. Just figure out your needs.

This other guy your wife likes is not into polyamory. He is operating under the idea that you have to possess the one you love. If your wife wants to get involved with someone, it should be with someone who can respect your relationship with her.

i wish you the best.
 
As a couple of people have written, the other guy giving your wife reasons to choose him over you is very troubling. That's home-wrecker behavior. Definitely something to bring up with the counselor, IMHO. How did your wife feel when he talked like that? Defensive? Confused? Angry? Sad? But that's for counseling.

I'm an extreme introvert and honestly don't need ANY friends other than my wife (hmmm...says the guy who's talking to strangers about his problems). She DOES need friends. I need to figure out how to be a part of that part of her life while still giving her space or if we make it through this crisis it will probably just happen again...

Again, IMHO: it may be necessary for you to grow. I'm an introvert, once an extreme one, but I had to pop my shell a lot in the past years. (Open up or die emotionally, in my case.)

Often an extreme introvert has trouble expressing emotions. Recognize that your wife probably needs more emotional nourishment. I know that my first response when I was married and in my extremely in-turned phase would have been, "I do connect with her emotionally!". But looking back I realize that what I considered emotional connection was actually pretty weak and unsatisfying. If there are ways you can open up more with her then you must do that. Talking is a gateway, but laughter and tears in each other's arms are better. But maybe you are already there, I dunno.

Another way you might consider growing is to step outside your comfort zone as an introvert and go with her to make friends. You should ask for her help -- she would probably love to help you meet people and learn how to relax and enjoy being around them more. If that's possible, a bunch of things might happen: you will be participating with her as she gets the socialization an extrovert needs; she will be helping you and helping each other brings couples closer; you may have good shared experiences that she (and you, eventually) will cherish; and she may feel less isolated and pressured (it's hard being the sole relationship provider for your spouse).

This is all stuff for you, but there are also things an extrovert needs to do too. She's gotta pay attention to you and use a kind of awareness that doesn't necessarily come easily to an extrovert. She has to figure out exactly what she feels about what happened and why --the kind of self-examination which, again, doesn't come naturally to an extro.

Your counselor should bring these kinds of things into the discussion. If you're feeling overloaded and "beat up" at the session by hearing about a lot of things you need to change, then override your keep-quiet nature and say so -- calmly, calmly! A good counselor should recognize immediately when you're approaching overload. Being challenged and being overloaded are different.

Anyway. I kind of feel like this is a know-it-all post on my part, and I hope you don't take it that way. My sympathy is very much with you. My mother is an extrovert who learned introspection, and my father is an introvert who learned to socialize...they're 87 and 95 years old, and one of the easiest and happiest married couples I know. Go for it!
 
Thanks once again for the replies, specifically the recommendations on what I can actually do to make this better.

Honestly, you're reassuring me that the things I am doing are right. We had another couple who has a baby over last week for a visit (my wife had got together with her but we had never done anything as couples before). We decided to do a getaway spa weekend with just the two of us in April (I'll love the alone time and she'll love the spa!). Also, we're planning on going to dinner with another couple on Sunday night and also talking about going on a real vacation (tropical, we're in WI and winter kills me) and trying to get her sister and BF to come along. We're kind of "auditioning" new couples friends I guess. Also, I tried to plan a surprise trip for my wife's best friend from highschool and her husband to visit next week when they have spring break (teachers) but that fell through do to an unexpected death in their family. Basically, yes I am trying to step out of my shell and support my wife's needs for other relationships (just not the romantic kind!), recreation, and conversation. Honeslty, conversation is the hardest one right now because I am just so BAD at it.

The other thing that I didn't mention is that I was put in a sales position at my current job 9 months ago as part of my "development". As an introvert it took all my energy to do the job so I no energy to be extro at home after talking to people 8 hours a day, everyday. Talked to my boss about what's been going on at home (without the details) and I'm going to be going back into a operations role in April. Same pay and benefits, so it won't create any financial strain. Just knowing that has allowed me to be more available emotionally to my wife. It's great to have a good boss!

I have an appointment with my counselor today and I basically want to tell her that I do feel better, but everyday is still a challange. I obviously had a relapse here the past couple days, but it was certainly not as severe or as long as the intitial waves of panic. I think this is a good sign.

One day at a time...it's not going to fix itself in one day, or one week, or probably even a month or year, but if we can make it better everyday this could be great.
 
You are RIGHT! The things you describe all sound like great efforts by someone who is self-aware and trying hard. I congratulate you and admire your determination.

I know what you mean about the difficulty of coming home from a position which challenges every bit of your ability to interact with people and then feeling you have to interact with people some more during what should be your recharge time. In talking to your boss it sounds like once again you're being pro-active and doing the right thing.

You're walking the walk as far as your marriage is concerned. Good for you! Your wife is a lucky woman to have a husband who is working so hard at the relationship.

----

Addendum...When I started having to make conversation I found it helped me a lot just to ask questions about what people said -- it turned my focus from inside myself ("what do I say now?") and helped me pay attention to other people. Which they like. Granted, with certain types it can lead to them dominating the talk but who cares, really? Most people find it flattering and enjoyable to be asked about things, and you may get a reputation as "that quiet guy who's really considerate and nice to talk to". Could be a lot worse reputations to have! But again, maybe you have already figured this out -- you're intelligent and self-aware, so I wouldn't be surprised.
 
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So....just got back from the counselor. She said it seemed like I was doing the right things. Told me that I need to have friends outside the marriage, even though I don't think I do. I think her point was that it isn't fair to my wife to make her responsible for 100% of my emotional needs. Ok....I get it....I am driving her nuts since this all started...

She also told me that they need to be male friends because she thinks I would think that a friendship with any female would be cheating. I argued with her on that a little bit because I said I do have female friends at work. She asked if I would ever go to lunch with them or have drinks. I said yes, we do that actually. She asked what we talked about and I said "work." Hmmm...she's right, I never talk about anything other than work with them. A lot of times it's gossipy, emotional stuff, but it's always work related. I've got to think that through. I don't think I'm comfortable with that part of myself if it is true (growth opportunity). I certainly wouldn't talk about my relationship problems with someone of the opposite sex...that may be a good boundary that I can live with. Certainly needs to be discussed in marriage counseling with my wife. I could tell she didn't like it when I told her what the counselor said (I share everything I talk about with the counselor with my wife). I'll have to figure out how to explain how I feel about this after I come to grips with it myself.

The counselor said I need to work on communicating (no surprise). I need to use 25 words to say what I normally say in 5. I need to stop telling my wife how I think she feels and start asking her. I didn't bring up my poly "theory" with the counselor really but she answered the question without me really bringing it up. She said that my wife is probably on a moment of reflection in her life. Has a one year old, became a stay at home mom, etc...and she is on her own journey to reevaluate her life. She said part of that journey involves me but some of her internal reflections were just for her. She said you can't not ask the question just because you're afraid of the answer.....
 
So....just got back from the counselor. She said it seemed like I was doing the right things. Told me that I need to have friends outside the marriage, even though I don't think I do. I think her point was that it isn't fair to my wife to make her responsible for 100% of my emotional needs. Ok....I get it....I am driving her nuts since this all started...

While not everyone thinks they need friends, maybe your partner needs you to. My wife and I struggle with this. I...would appreciate if she had more people to relate to than just me. Our ex gf is now very close to her and its been great for her. They have been able to remain close and connected, although very painful for me for other reasons, it has been good for me as well just by how much it has helped her...
 
Exactly...the hard part will be making them....

Good places to start would be in clubs/groups where you have a similar interest. Sports, hobbies etc. Also, it might be easier for you to apply the term acquaintance instead of friend. For me friend has a far deeper meaning than what appears to be most peoples terms.

Heck you could even try okcupid, it is also built as a matchmaker site for friends and activity partners...

Either way, good luck in your journey
 
Ah, the part about becoming a stay-at-home mom with a 1-year-old changes things in my imagination all right. Major life changes for both of you, but especially for your wife. Is she feeling off-balance and uncertain about her life, do you think? It sounds like the counselor suggested that, in a way.

I dunno if the counselor covered primary and secondary emotions...? A lot of times emotions like anger and resentment are the conscious manifestations of deeper feelings. For example, when my son was involved with meth addiction I spent days in a blind rage, but the real emotion underneath was fear. I couldn't understand and deal with the rage -- it kept coming back no matter what I could do -- until I recognized and dealt with the fear that was deeper down.

It might be useful at some point to probe behind the feelings that surfaced when you discovered your wife's friendship. Maybe not right now. Sometime.

A personal perspective: I'm "dating" a woman who's in a poly marriage, and my understanding of her husband is that he is at ease sharing her affection because he has become absolutely confident that the two of them have an indestructible love for each other. And he's right: she connects well with me emotionally and intellectually as well as physically, but her connection to him is a thousand times deeper.

Anyway. Maybe at some point you will see something down there in your psyche, understand it, and realize that your relationship with your wife has become so strong that you can let go of whatever it was and not worry about her friendships. Because you will then know that no outside friendship can ever threaten what you and she have...and at that point she may be able to tell you everything about her friends with no sense of worry or guilt.

Or maybe I'm just playing amateur shrink here? :p

Take everything with a grain of salt. You're there and we ain't.
 
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Maybe at some point you will see something down there in your psyche, understand it, and realize that your relationship with your wife has become so strong that you can let go of whatever it was and not worry about her friendships. Because you will then know that no outside friendship can ever threaten what you and she have...and at that point she may be able to tell you everything about her friends with no sense of worry or guilt.

That's what I want more than anything! To be honest though, it's going to take a long time. I am working on a lot of things that I need to do better, but she did hide the relationship, lie to me about it, and after being confronted their conversation turned to how they could continue talking without getting caught, etc... Yes, I probably pushed her to do those things, but building that trust isn't just going to happen. It's going to take work on both our parts.

I'm just going to have let her continue to sort through her feelings keeping in mind, that just like I had a relapse, she's going to have them too.
 
To be honest though, it's going to take a long time.

Yeah! The marriage I referred to is 20+ years in the making. L and D have had their bad times, and from what I understand it was not at all easy.

Actually, L is working through some resentment about one of D's girlfriends now. From my perspective L is justified in her feelings -- the other woman is not accepting the realities of L being the permanent, forever wife in D's world. That's not constructive. But D is a man with an exceptionally generous and wise spirit. L is following his example and growing to become generous enough to let the pettiness of the other woman slide past and disappear without disturbing her balance.

Point being, it's not easy. (Sometimes it's not easy for me being the outside guy, either!)

Your wife was not honest with you, and tried to continue her dishonesty. I agree that there is a lot of reconciliation that needs to happen. She has to go all the way in making amends to you. I suppose that means facing some things inside herself that will be pretty tough to look at.

I think one's interior dishonesty is much harder to face than merely apologizing to someone else for lying. So she's got a lot of difficult work to do. You're right. She needs to step up and heal the relationship from her side.

But again, a counselor is going to know more in 15 minutes than we on the forum can get in several days. It sounds like your personal therapist is good; I hope your marriage counselor is also on the ball.

I admire your awareness and intelligence. I think you're doing what needs to be done and you're doing it wisely.
 
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