SlutWalk

Awesome. The statement of that officer that women wouldn't be assaulted if they didn't dress like sluts is a terrible stereotype and it puts the onus on the woman for the other person's reactions.
I think to myself "how terrible is that? That a police officer would say outright other people can't or won't help their reactions or actions because someone has a sexy top on? Are you kidding me?"
 
The reaction at my university is revealing.

On the one hand, a very large segment of the student body (mostly grad students) see it as a means of speaking out against patently unjust blame-the-victim mentality. It's an exercise in empowerment, and an expression of dissatisfaction with the attitudes held by many (though clearly not all) law enforcement and judicial authorities. No one asks to get raped.

On the other hand, a smaller segment, mostly younger undergrads, is seeing it as an exercise in blind sexual promiscuity. I think this, if anywhere, is where the movement's gone wrong: the title "SlutWalk," at least at my alma mater, has been taken, by some, as a license to engage in drunken, irresponsible, destructive sexual behavior--the kind that spreads disease and encourages college girls to gauge their self-worth based on the number of frat boys they sleep with compared with other women. That interpretation is an exercise in disempowerment, in women being redefined solely by their physical value to men. It's also dangerous as hell, on so many levels.

But then, there are people who will misconstrue any movement, regardless of the title. But the title "SlutWalk" is really begging for abuse.
 
That a police officer would say outright other people can't or won't help their reactions or actions because someone has a sexy top on? Are you kidding me?"

This is a hot issue for sure! We just recently had this talk again.

My perspective is pretty black and white especially in the issue of people being told they are making themselves a target.

Here is my thinking on this as unpopular as it is;

The people who perpetrate crimes against people are not normal, healthy or bound by social laws and respect for the rights of others. Therefore, if a known perpetrator targets a certain look or style of dress and that is clearly their MO, then it is the responsibility of police or any other knowledgeable source to inform people of that. It then becomes the individuals choice as to how to apply that information. If they choose to ignore the warning within the message delivered by police or a knowledgeable source, then they are assuming a greater risk then a person who choses to modify patterns or behavior that could potentially make them a target.

I don't like helmets but I know that it is safer to wear one. If the law did not make me wear one I would assume responsibility for my choice not to wear one fully knowing the risk involved. I can't hold the concrete responsible for smashing my head because it simply doesn't play by my rules. People who commit crimes are like concrete...hard and uncaring for the rights of their victims.

I'm not saying anyone should be able to tell a person how to dress. What I am saying is that people should be smart enough to make decisions based on the reality around them. The way a person dresses does not make a person a rapist...but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.
 
I'm not saying anyone should be able to tell a person how to dress. What I am saying is that people should be smart enough to make decisions based on the reality around them. The way a person dresses does not make a person a rapist...but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.

Although it's too late, and I'm too drunk to respond to this whole thread in the length it deserves (maybe I will tomorrow), you miss a crucial and all too frequently missed point. The "us" you are speaking of doesn't actually include you and I. The "us" is women. That is what makes your line of argument support an inherently unjust system, the system we currently have in place. The "people" who should be able to make decisions based on the "reality" around them are women. We don't have to worry about this in this case. That is the difference between helmets and short skirts (although there are many others as well). Sexual assault and victim blaming are (almost completely) a gendered issue. The "reality" is that men (NOT all men, and NOT even most men.. but the huge majority of rapists are men) rape women (NOT only women, but mostly), and that rather than examining the culture that supports/condones this, and rather than telling men to stop raping women, we tell women to "make decisions based on the reality around them," to understand that it's not safe for them in certain situations and that they should 'protect' themselves. Personally, I don't enjoy living in a world where I can dress however I want, drink whatever and however much I want, walk wherever I want when I want, and talk to whomever I want whenever I want without the fear that I may be raped while women cannot. This, to me, is unjust, and telling women that "it behooves" them to "avoid the stimulus" perpetuates this injustice. (Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)

I hope this doesn't come across as a personal attack. I don't know you at all, and I don't want this to be a comment on your character in the least (simply for being on this board I imagine that you are mightily more respectable than many of the men I meet). I believe that men, all men, have a duty to really question our role in issues around sexualized violence, and to speak up whenever we see/hear things that contribute to a culture that condones this violence, and that blames women for bringing it on themselves. This is why I went on this drunken rant.

Love.
 
The "us" is women. That is what makes your line of argument support an inherently unjust system. The "reality" is that men (NOT all men, and NOT even most men.. but the huge majority of rapists are men) rape women (NOT only women, but mostly), and that rather than examining the culture that supports/condones this, and rather than telling men to stop raping women, we tell women to "make decisions based on the reality around them," to understand that it's not safe for them in certain situations and that they should 'protect' themselves. This, to me, is unjust, and telling women that "it behooves" them to "avoid the stimulus" perpetuates this injustice. (Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)

You brought up a great point - women will be assulted or raped regardless of what they wear or do. Women don't walk around asking to get assulted or raped - it comes to them in the strangest of locations - and without warning.

This may be hard to read, but I was molested twice as a child by two different male family members on two separate occasions in my life. We went to court for one of them. Both are dead now, and someday I'll take the journey to GA and AZ to 'piss' on their graves. Forever mark them as pedophyles for all to see. Then as a teenager after telling my teenage boyfriend to stop, he continued on for quite a long time until he was satisfied. This I consider non-consentual, too, because I feared he'd beat me if I pushed him off.

My point is that I don't think it matters what girls or women wear or do - if the man wants to push himself onto her, he will.

It is society who needs to focus on training the boys in school to become respectful men in society. And speaking first hand, I don't see that happening in schools in the near future at all. Adminstrators avoid it like the plague. They don't address the issues until after it has happened. Therefore, the responsibility is left to the parent(s), but unfortunately the parent(s) who aren't teaching their sons to respect women are the ones who weren't trained by their parents... and thus the nasty cycle continues...

The man might spend some time in jail, lose his job, his family, or face public embarassment, but it is the females who pay the lifelong price... depression, self-doubt, lack of self-worth, confusion, shyness, meeting the wrong partners, and participating in potentially unsafe lifestyles...

Only a strong, consistent support team with some sort of therapy provides immediate relief for the female - but it can never truly be erased from her mind - the man/men already did the damage...
 
(Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)



Love.

RP , Derby and I talked about this just after I posted and I agree. When I look at this topic I do usually create a very specific rapist as an example..one that preys on a certain look and may not reflect statistical evidence. If the statistical information supports the idea that how women dress is not a stimulus then that should be just as wide spread as any other information. I don't see any personal attack at all :)


I think we do need to teach boys and young men to treat women with respect..and shit like popular music videos and a lot of objectifying porn are not helping the matter. I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact. I'll put it out there..dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut. That's the current reality...there are bad boys/men out there.
 
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I can see valid points on both sides of what seems to be a 'debate' - which really isn't. Or shouldn't be.

A little common sense goes a long way in discussions like this and it's usually the first to get lost.

I agree that the manner of dress has only minimal impact on rape statistics. But oddly enough, the effect it can have doesn't end up necessarily being reflected directly on the wearer. The actual victim will likely be someone where the situation will afford the right opportunity. You can safely walk through the center of the mall with your ass hanging out and until/unless you step out the back door it won't matter. But some other poor, conservatively dressed gal that does step out back is just as likely to end up the victim.
All you can say is that you ( the sexy dressed person) potentially play some small role in that happening. It is what it is. You are neither solely responsible or completely innocent by adding to the tension that eventually "tips" that unbalanced person over.
The world is full of stimuli for that type of person. Eventually the tipping point will be reached.

Following, as Mon was attempting to point out, you can't toss a red marble in the center of a group of white ones and not expect it to get noticed. And 'noticed' with a potential rapist in the crowd is NOT what you want. So a little common sense can go a long way in protecting yourself. Do we LIKE it - to have to bend our personal preferences to the reality of the environment? Of course we don't ! But we have to also accept some personal responsibility for choices we make. If we want to walk the edge we have to acknowledge the risks.

I would be the last to look down on any gal because of her choice of clothing. But I DO question the logic behind it (as to appropriateness of environment). It IS a form of communication. What we wear IS a statement.
What statement are you trying to make - and why are you making it - here and now? It's back to the responsibility issue.
We DO have to take responsibility for the statements we make. It's just the nature of things.

GS
 
What was wrong with "take back the night?" Here we had it at a time of year where we had to wear coats, hats, gloves in order to stay warm! We would walk along and chant "women unite, take back the night." It worked for us, it made sense.

I don't get the "slutwalk" thing. It seems to be an excuse to walk around dressed like a slut, the message is lost on me. Women dress how they want and as a result attract what they want from that.... rape is about control, not how one dresses I think.
 
hi all,

its called slutwalk because (quote from their website, http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/):

On January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”.

We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault. "


I think thats quiet a good thing to ask for.
 
I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact. I'll put it out there..dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut. That's the current reality...there are bad boys/men out there.

I don't know the specifics of the rape that resulted in the slutwalk movement. It may have been a stranger rape. But most rapists know their victims. A women's rapist is often someone they know, sometimes well, sometimes someone they love. A friend, boyfriend, acquaintance, co-worker.

I've bolded the sentence above because this reads to me like sluts are to be raped. If one acts like a slut, then one is available to be raped. I've been reading this board for a while and given your other postings, I seriously doubt this is what you meant.

The brutal truth is that women can't stop rape. It doesn't matter what women wear, where we live, etc. Women can and do take precautions and while that helps on an individual level, it's still a crap shoot. One can do everything 'right' and get raped or take insane risks and come through unhurt.

Most men don't rape but I bet those good guys know someone who has. I do not statistics to back this up. But have you (not you specifically Mono but all the guys on the board) heard someone talking about a sexual encounter and wondered, was that really what happened? Thought it sounded a little off?

Until other men make men feel shame for rape, then rape will continue at the epidemic level it is now.
 
I definitely did not mean to imply that women who dress like "sluts" are to be raped. I do believe that they can be expected to be judged and viewed a certain way...the judgement will most likey from other women.
I've seen a lot of stuff in a lot of places and I admit that I've looked at some situations that skirted sexual assault and thought "she was asking for it". Women and men both need to assume responsibility for stetting the stage for problems in some cases.
 
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Women and men both need to assume responsibility for stetting the stage for problems in some cases.

Please don't flame me for this analogy.

I'm having a barbecue. I invite over 25 friends, we head out to the apartment pool, have a few drinks. I leave the door unlocked so my guests can get inside to pee and whatnot. Occasionally, one of them will leave the door ajar.

This is not an invitation to come in and steal my computer. In fact, under American law, it's still breaking and entering, whether you pushed the door open or broke the window. You're still a thief, either way. I invited my friends into my house, left it unlocked for them--this in no way constitutes "permission" to steal my stuff.

Now, on the other hand, if I want to absolutely avoid having my computer stolen (let's pretend I have a semester's worth of notes on it, and no backup or something), I should probably lock my door and ask my friends to keep it locked.

This does NOT change the fact that anyone who steals my computer is a dirty rotten thief who's entirely to blame for my lack of computer, and, indirectly, for my failed classes!

Now, this begs questions about the commodification of sex, sex workers' rights, etc., but I'll stop now. :)
 
Now, on the other hand, if I want to absolutely avoid having my computer stolen (let's pretend I have a semester's worth of notes on it, and no backup or something), I should probably lock my door and ask my friends to keep it locked.

:)

I think this is a great analogy actually. The problem is; how cautious do we become at the expense of freedom? And yes...their are terrible people out there who don't give two cents about your rights as a human and would just as soon hurt you as they would tie their shoes. Not just men, but women too. That is reality. I can chose to ignore that or chose to balance my actions based on that. Men get assaulted as well, we all have to be cautious at times. There are lots of ego driven guys who are just looking for a reason to kick the shit out of someone...again it becomes a matter of knowing what can trigger some one to target us and avoid it.

Total-Awareness-Womans-Safety-Book


This is a great book that deals with safety for women. I trained with the author for four years and him and his wife are committed to educating women about how to not become victims or targets. I'm just adding this in case anyone is interested..it's not a plug.
 
Self defense classes are always wise, regardless of your gender or clothing choices. If you're gonna dress like a slut, you should probably know how to stab a man's eyes out with those stilleto heels.
 
I heard the whole police officer comment before, and think it could be heard two ways. The police are theoretically there to defend us, keep us safe, inform us. So when we hear information from them it could be seen as for our own interest and protection. The voice of authority on what the news on the street is.

The thing is that some people have not been treated well (or have heard others who have been treated well) by the police and have no confidence in the information passed on. They will see information as negative and to be untrusted no matter what the intention is coming from the police. That is real and valid for them.

So what to do? I think that it is important to pass on messages to the public in different ways and with a certain attitude. Saying, "if you dress like that, you are going to get raped you stupid slut," is different than giving information like "hey, there is a rapist around right now that targets women dressed _this_ way," or "it is thought by some men that women who dress _this_ way are sexually available regardless of verbal consent." All in the delivery of the message no?

It was unfortunate that the officer in question became emotional about the situation and was frustrated that some women don't seem to get it. There are some people that would love to tie it all up in a nice little bow just how they would like in order to make the world *perfect.* That is a human trait no? I think the officer in question needs some stress leave and a course in approaching the public or something. I don't everything about it perhaps there is more to it... but from my outside perspective this is my thought at the moment.

If nothing else the whole thing has caused people to talk, talk is good, debate is good, questioning is good; even titties on the streets of Toronto is good... I'm sure a lot of men/people enjoyed the display and all "walks" that occured after, but not necessarily because of the confusing message it sent, but because there were titties on the street! :D:p;)
 
This whole issue is about much more far-reaching than how slutty a woman dresses. Rape is usually never about sex, or sexual gratification of the rapist. Though it may be fueled by sex, rape is always about power, dominance, and control.

As long as society continues to devalue women's contributions, autonomy, and sexual freedom, while it continually encourages men to feel entitled to be in positions of power, certain men will try to knock down women and put them "in their place." Rape.

As long as a woman is looked at askance for expressing her truth, such as wanting to be sexual, or perhaps not wanting children; as long as she does not have control over her body; cannot choose abortion or birth control without someone saying she is doing something wrong or immoral; or as long as a woman is prevented from moving up in the workplace and when she does still makes less than what a man would make in the same position; as long as the churches still promote the Madonna/whore image of women; as long as we still have fucking beauty pageants; as long as women are objectified; as long as girls and women are taught to be catty and compete with each other for the affections of males; as long as mothers are considered non-sexual beings; as long as menopausal women are told their sex drive is dried up; as long as people still believe there is such a thing as frigidity; as long as the media sexualizes little girls; as long as advertisers use sex to sell products; as long as sex is not spoken about in "proper" social situations; as long as children are kept in the dark about what sex and sexuality is; as long as women are taught to think they are freaks for wanting sex; for wanting independence; for wanting to be in powerful positions; for wanting the same rights, autonomy, consideration, salaries, and sexual expression as men; as long as men and boys continue to see women and girls as in second place behind them; as long as prostitution is illegal and considered a criminal act; as long as society still feels shame over bodily functions and sex; then things like rape and sex trafficking will continue to take place.

It has nothing to do with wearing heels, a short skirt, and a low-fucking-cut top!

The way to stop rape is not to teach women self-defense (I don't mean they shouldn't learn it, but that this is backward thinking); the way to stop rape is to teach our boys and men, and society as a whole (because there are plenty of women who need to learn it too) to fucking cherish and respect women for all of who they are: vibrant, sexual, sensual, intelligent, capable beings who are equal to men and have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want and walk down whatever the fuck street they want at whatever time they fucking want without being in danger.
 
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This whole issue is about much more far-reaching than how slutty a woman dresses. Rape is usually never about sex, or sexual gratification of the rapist. Though it may be fueled by sex, rape is always about power, dominance, and control.

As long as society continues to devalue women's contributions, autonomy, and sexual freedom, while it continually encourages men to feel entitled to be in positions of power, certain men will try to knock down women and put them "in their place." Rape.

As long as a woman is looked at askance for expressing her truth, such as wanting to be sexual, or perhaps not wanting children; as long as she does not have control over her body; cannot choose abortion or birth control without someone saying she is doing something wrong or immoral; or as long as a woman is prevented from moving up in the workplace and when she does still makes less than what a man would make in the same position; as long as the churches still promote the Madonna/whore image of women; as long as we still have fucking beauty pageants; as long as women are objectified; as long as girls and women are taught to be catty and compete with each other for the affections of males; as long as mothers are considered non-sexual beings; as long as menopausal women are told their sex drive is dried up; as long as people still believe there is such a thing as frigidity; as long as the media sexualizes little girls; as long as advertisers use sex to sell products; as long as sex is not spoken about in "proper" social situations; as long as children are kept in the dark about what sex and sexuality is; as long as women are taught to think they are freaks for wanting sex; for wanting independence; for wanting to be in powerful positions; for wanting the same rights, autonomy, consideration, salaries, and sexual expression as men; as long as men and boys continue to see women and girls as in second place behind them; as long as prostitution is illegal and considered a criminal act; as long as society still feels shame over bodily functions and sex; then things like rape and sex trafficking will continue to take place.

It has nothing to do with wearing heels, a short skirt, and a low-fucking-cut top!

The way to stop rape is not to teach women self-defense (I don't mean they shouldn't learn it, but that this is backward thinking); the way to stop rape is to teach our boys and men, and society as a whole (because there are plenty of women who need to learn it too) to fucking cherish and respect women for all of who they are: vibrant, sexual, sensual, intelligent, capable beings who are equal to men and have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want and walk down whatever the fuck street they want at whatever time they fucking want without being in danger.


Thank you
 
I had started a response to this thread and then kicked the power button on my computer by mistake (it must be Monday) so here we go again.

The flip side of the issue of police telling women that they are basically asking for rape by dressing like "sluts" is that it gives the impression that if a woman dresses conservatively that she is not at risk of sexual assault. This can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of vigilance to her surroundings.

Women shouldn't HAVE to worry about how they dress and shouldn't HAVE to be concerned about walking alone at night (or hell, even during the day). Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Sexual assault is a reality in our world. As such the police have a duty to warn women of the potential danger. But rather than victim blaming the better approach might be to reinforce staying as a group when out, not leaving your drinks unattended and letting someone know where you'll be and what time to expect you back.
 
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