When Life Goals Change - Help with Advice / Comfort

LittleSingingBat

New member
Salutations, all.

I am posting now because I could use comfort, advice, or even just a sounding board from poly people in general, or maybe even from someone who has been in a similar position.

The situation:
Me + Him (Wolf) + Her (Lioness)

We are a poly triangle (we all have relationships with each other, to different varying degrees.)

We have all been in poly relationships before, again to varying degrees.

Lioness and I dated (for about three years, in another poly triangle) before she married Wolf. (At the time, we actually talked about becoming a quad with Wolf and the other man we were with at the time.)

We have all known each other for about ten years.

Wolf and Lioness have been married for almost 4 years. They have three children, an almost 3 year old and a set of nearly 1 year old twins. We began seeing each other (as a triangle) a few months before the twins were born, and, shortly after their birth, realized we worked exceptionally well as a family unit.

When we realized the depth of our bond, we gathered research on poly / poly families with kids, took our time, and had serious discussions about how we envisioned the relationship/family developing. At the time, we all agreed that we would try for a "forever" family (the same kind of forever implied by a marriage, for example), and that, when the timing was right, I would have our last (my first) child, completing our family.

Our relationship ideal was that we would all be considered equal friends, lovers, and partners in the relationship, and that we would treat all of the children as our own, whether ours by genetics or choice.

After about seven months of dating, we moved in together. Even before we lived together and increasingly so in the time since, I have taken on the responsibilities of an alloparent. I watch the kids, feed them, change diapers, help teach and play games with them, and so on-- just like Wolf and Lioness do, with some tasks falling more often to one person or another. For example, Wolf tends to be the one that bathes the kids, Lioness and I tend to be the ones that feed them, and Wolf and Lioness have been the ones to get up with the new babies the most in the night.

We are coming up on the anniversary of our triangle forming, and so I recently initiated a check-in conversation about our status--

-- Currently I am viewed as "girlfriend" in the relationship, and I asked if / when I might be considered "spouse" to either or both of them.
-- I was hoping to be considered as a "mother" to (all) the children in the relationship and wanted to know if / when this was still a possibility.

After having asked this, Lioness told us (much to my and Wolf's surprise) that she'd had some concerns too, and that she wasn't sure she was interested in Baby 4 anymore. She listed many different reasons, some of which are genuine causes for concern, and some of which felt... forced. I took a few days to think on it and then very carefully but clearly asked Lioness if perhaps the reason she is hesitating in all three departments (me as spouse, me as "mom," me as physical mother) might be because she wants to be the sole wife and mother in the relationship.

**It is important to note that all of our communication has been very mature, civil, and considerate. We are careful to use direct communication and to express our thoughts and needs with consideration for the others. I have absolutely no complaints there and I'm actually very proud of us for doing so well. (The poly research we did at the beginning of this relationship is really showing!)

It is also important to note that I told her that I will understand and respect her needs/happiness if she finds that she *does* want to be the only wife and mother in the relationship. That is a valid, legitimate desire, both in and outside of the scope of polyamory. (We know a V relationship that works that way, for instance.)

That said, I was also very clear that I need to know if that is the case because that is NOT the relationship I desire.

Lioness's response has been that she does not know, and that she needs to think about it. I respect this entirely. It's a big decision! However, waiting each day to find out whether or not my relationship and the future I was working so hard to build is going to come up incompatible is agonizing. I do not know how much longer I can hold out, being patient and supportive as I wait.

How long do you think I should give her to think on this topic? How long do I need to just "suck it up," before I should expect an answer? Or maybe you have some tactics for making the wait more bearable? I am open to suggestion!

This is especially important as, currently, Lioness has asked that I not withdraw or "take a break" from the relationship-- which means that I am still participating in alloparent duties. So, not only am I tormented each day by the fact that this might be my last with Wolf and Lioness and the children that I have grown to love, but I am still caring for the children that I may lose in almost all of my free time.

Does anyone have any advice for me?

Feel free to ask any questions you might have too-- I'll answer to the best of my ability.

Thank you so much.
 
That sounds hard, I am sorry :(

How long do you think I should give her to think on this topic? How long do I need to just "suck it up," before I should expect an answer?
How long has it been since the conversation?

This is especially important as, currently, Lioness has asked that I not withdraw or "take a break" from the relationship-- which means that I am still participating in alloparent duties.
Consider if you need to say no to that request. I can see where you could need a timeout too.
 
I would ask for a timeline. Tell her you'd like to have an official conversation on X date. What has Wolf had to say - does he know that Lioness may have changed her mind? What if he does want a child with you? Has she spoken to him about this?
 
How long has it been since the conversation?

I asked about when I might be considered spouse/mother 10 days ago, on July 8th. Lioness responded about her Baby 4 concerns on July 11, a week ago today.

Consider if you need to say no to that request. I can see where you could need a timeout too.
I did ask for a time out-- to take a step back, as I put it, but Lioness worries that the emotional distance may hurt our relationship. I didn't know who to respond to that, because I certainly don't want to do anything to hurt; I want to help. Thoughts?

---

What has Wolf had to say - does he know that Lioness may have changed her mind? What if he does want a child with you? Has she spoken to him about this?

Wolf was part of the conversation when she voiced her concerns about Baby 4. He very much wants Baby 4, and has made his opinion on the matter known several times in the past-- although it probably couldn't hurt for him to reaffirm that to her now. (I actually asked him and advised him of that this morning.)

As for asking for a timeline, I want to, but I am hesitant to make her to feel unduly pressured, so I'm trying to figure out what a "fair" timeline might be. : /

Thank you for reading and responding. Even that little bit makes it a little easier to bear. <3
 
I did ask for a time out-- to take a step back, as I put it, but Lioness worries that the emotional distance may hurt our relationship. I didn't know who to respond to that, because I certainly don't want to do anything to hurt; I want to help. Thoughts?
Well, yes, thoughts, but I have no experience, so be carefull taking my opinions :/
You could ask her to take it as you going on vacation. Or at least a long weekend. Even days could help you to get a break.

As for asking for a timeline, I want to, but I am hesitant to make her to feel unduly pressured, so I'm trying to figure out what a "fair" timeline might be. : /
I think you could just ask about her guess. She has to understand this is extremely hard for you.
Then you could take her guess and evaluate what you need to do. Like, if she sais she'll talk to you tomorrow, great, but if she needs a month or more, you could take your timeout no matter her request.
 
I think you could just ask about her guess. She has to understand this is extremely hard for you.
Then you could take her guess and evaluate what you need to do. Like, if she says she'll talk to you tomorrow, great, but if she needs a month or more, you could take your timeout no matter her request.

I think that's pretty clever and a good compromise. It's not a "I need an answer now," but a "Hey, when do you think you might know?" so that I can evaluate if it's plausible / healthy for me to keep trying so hard while I patiently wait.

Thanks for the idea!
 
How long did the discussions and thought take when you were getting into the 'forever family" arrangement? You are discussing a deal breaker which is likely to lead to a form of divorce. Have you considered counseling to work this out? That is what an engaged couple might do if one of them discovered they might not want kids after all.

Leetah
 
How long did the discussions and thought take when you were getting into the 'forever family" arrangement? You are discussing a deal breaker which is likely to lead to a form of divorce. Have you considered counseling to work this out? That is what an engaged couple might do if one of them discovered they might not want kids after all.

The discussions of forming a forever family were at different times over the course of several months towards the beginning of our relationship (once things got serious). We liked what was developing naturally but wanted to make sure that our outlooks and "life goals" all aligned in a way that made a long-term relationship plausible. The conversations also included our projected/desired timeline of trying for Baby 4.

I would love to do counseling, but am unsure how to find poly-positive counselors? Since that is the case, we have been reaching out to poly-positive friends, and all three have us have talked to our mutual friend who is a professional counselor, although informally, more like a mediator, if that makes sense?

You're right that it feels like a possible "divorce" topic, or deal breaker... One the one hand, it is frustrating for me because I was completely honest in those early conversations, and because I have been working so hard to build the relationship from there to what we'd dreamed of. On the other hand, I am certainly grateful that this has come up now instead of just before we started trying or, worse, after a child had already been born!
 
To find a counselor you can check out counselors' websites where they list some of their specialties. You can ask any poly friends if they know of someone. Check with poly groups in your area. You can find a counselor whose philosophy seems compatible and ask if they would be willing to work with you, most therapists do some kind of intake interview for free where you can ask questions.

If you all are continuing to try to hash out the problems Lioness mentioned (and the over all problem you identified), then it is up to you what your time boundaries are. When were you hoping to have child number 4? If it will not be possible for Lioness to be comfortable with it then you have to give yourself time to establish a new life arrangement so as to have the child, either with Wolf separately or with someone else.

Lioness may be feeling a bit overwhelmed with infant twins, even with co-parenting. She might feel differently when she has enough rest but that could be awhile.

Having known each other as long as you have it seems to me your one year counts as an engagement before committing, and this is just the kind of issue engagement should bring out.

You know her well, how long does she take to consider important emotion laden decisions?

Leetah
 
If you all are continuing to try to hash out the problems Lioness mentioned (and the over all problem you identified), then it is up to you what your time boundaries are. When were you hoping to have child number 4? If it will not be possible for Lioness to be comfortable with it then you have to give yourself time to establish a new life arrangement so as to have the child, either with Wolf separately or with someone else.

We were looking at beginning to try for baby 4 next year, beginning mid to late April (aiming for a due date in 2018.) I definitely can't hold out until then for an answer. :(

If Lioness comes back with a response of "Yes, I want to be the only wife and mother," I will not be allowed to have a child with Wolf (in or out of the relationship). It will also mean that I will withdraw from the relationship (with grace and dignity-- it won't be ugly, just a parting of ways.)

Lioness may be feeling a bit overwhelmed with infant twins, even with co-parenting. She might feel differently when she has enough rest but that could be awhile.

I think this is part of my frustration too. There were months that we all jokingly call "the dark times," which were survival mode with two infants and a toddler and I was with them, taking care, pitching in, and helping them through it all. To turn around now, when things are finally starting to smooth out a bit and tell me (essentially) "Thanks for helping us when things were awful, but I don't think your happiness is worth doing that again" is really, really hurtful and makes me feel as though I've been taken advantage of. (Especially since we're unlikely to have twins this time *crosses fingers.*)

You know her well, how long does she take to consider important emotion laden decisions?

This too, is problematic, as, typically, Lioness knows what she wants and is pretty set in her ways. This isn't always a bad thing! It means that she's a great champion when she believes in a cause, and it also generally means that, once she's made up her mind, it stays that way.

That's why it is so troubling to have her pull this surprise 180 after we have already had these long, thoughtful conversations and I thought I knew where her mind was. I feel like the rug was pulled out from under me, and I am beginning to fear that maybe Lioness never wanted to share, but has been using the time we've been together to change her own mind (into letting me be wife/mother) without success, and it's only now that she's voicing her true feelings.

If that is true, then it now feels less like Lioness is trying to figure out whether not it's okay (for her) to share wife/mother with me and more like she's trying to find a way to keep me as perpetual girlfriend and live-in nanny without allowing me the things that I need to feel fulfilled.

It feels like that could be why it is taking this long for her to decide how she feels; she already knows what she wants, she just doesn't know how to phrase it in a way that gets me to stay.

In other words, it feels like she promised to buy the cow then, but after having gotten the milk for free for so long, why change the arrangement? :(
 
ultimatums, timelines, biology

Just some psychology to back up some of yours, and other's, instincts.

Please ask yourself these questions:

Am I the kind of person who believes in blood-ties? or Do I believe family is what you make of it, regardless of biology or legal status?

Does the inherent nature of being poly-amorous, and therefore a fringe community, make it more or less important for me to have my relationship status formally established?

Based on your answers to yourself - none have right or wrong answers - then consider what you want and need in your partnerships with Wolf, Lioness, and your (until otherwise specified) children.

Last, please consider biology: our hormones are tricky - a mother with very young children will instinctively advocate to be the only female parent in a household, and have to fight those hormones to 'allow' another Mom into her dynamic. Your own hormones might be a factor too - regardless of how many we nurture, biology shoves us into desiring 'our own' children. (Why so many hetero-normative non-poly couples have a baby together after getting together)

One more ask: deadlines/timelines are designed to push people into opposite corners... they drag issues of trust, allegiance and resentment into an otherwise healthy conversation. Because you love this woman and your collective family, perhaps trust that she will respect your need for
quickly.

All the best~

Emily
 
Please ask yourself these questions:

Am I the kind of person who believes in blood-ties? or Do I believe family is what you make of it, regardless of biology or legal status?

I believe that a family is what you make it-- that you choose your family. I was actually adopted by my dad when he married my biological mother, and they had a child together who is my brother in every single way (I never think of him as a "half brother"). There was never any difference in how our parents treated us, and it taught me that we can choose our family. (We also had some kind of awful family by blood that we've had to distance ourselves from, and that only reinforced the idea.)

Does the inherent nature of being poly-amorous, and therefore a fringe community, make it more or less important for me to have my relationship status formally established?

We cannot control how people outside our relationship will see/identify us, but we can control how we see each other. As a result, yes, it is more important for me to have my significant others recognize our relationship (preferably as spouse/wife), even if we never have a ceremony (although I'd like to.) As long as I can be confident in Us, then I can withstand the slings and arrows of the world.

Last, please consider biology: our hormones are tricky - a mother with very young children will instinctively advocate to be the only female parent in a household, and have to fight those hormones to 'allow' another Mom into her dynamic. Your own hormones might be a factor too - regardless of how many we nurture, biology shoves us into desiring 'our own' children. (Why so many hetero-normative non-poly couples have a baby together after getting together)

Is it really possible that her hormones might be trying to get her to be the only mother? I hadn't thought of that before. If that is the case, I wonder why it's activating now, when the twins are nearly one, instead of being a constant throughout the whole relationship... (unless it was a constant, like I postulated in my last post, and she has never really wanted to share the role of mom, but was trying to convince herself otherwise.

As for my own biology, I have always wanted to have a child of my own (pregnancy, breastfeeding if I can, that sort of thing) but have always thought I'd have one and then adopt more children if I could. It was one of the things that was a great draw of this relationship-- because I could essentially do just that. (And I had the added benefit/security of not having to worry about my male partner leaving me if I am unable to conceive, unlike some relationships.)

As for deadlines, I think you're definitely right; it can force negativity into an otherwise healthy conversation. It's just so hard to keep trying for Us (our family and future) when it feels like the sword of Damocles is hanging over me. : /
 
As for deadlines, I think you're definitely right; it can force negativity into an otherwise healthy conversation. It's just so hard to keep trying for Us (our family and future) when it feels like the sword of Damocles is hanging over me. : /

Can you just explain it like that to Lioness? Just tell her that you want her to have the time she needs to make the best decision for everyone...but that it's exceedingly difficult for you to keep waiting indefinitely for an answer. Then, based on how that conversation goes, maybe take a time out for yourself, if you need it (as others have suggested.) As difficult as it is to do, I would try not to infer her motives/thoughts/feelings now or previously.

Do you feel comfortable asking her if she's always had doubts or if they're new doubts? Because it is possible that she had the doubts but swept them under the rug and didn't acknowledge or deal with them when she was swept up in NRE and pregnancy/postpartum hormones and emotions.

What are Wolf's thoughts?
 
Why would Lioness changing her mind, mean you are the one that leaves the relationship? You said Wolf still wants child number 4. So as I see it, you and Wolf are still on board with the original arrangement, and Lioness might be changing her mind. Surely if she has changed the arrangement, she is the one that should leave - not you. If you're all equal in this arrangement, why would Wolf elect to stay with her when she is the one who has changed her mind?

To add to that, I read a lot about boundaries, not rules on here. So instead of asking 'how long is it reasonable for her to answer', I'd be asking 'how long is it reasonable for you to wait' and also 'it is reasonable for you to be asked to continue in the relationship as if nothing has changed, when Lioness might have just undermined your very arrangement?'. That's kind of her saying 'please suppress your emotional reactions and continue as normal, even though I've just dropped a huge bomb on you' ...and why? Because it makes it easier FOR HER.

Here is what I would be doing:

1. Have conversation with Wolf. See where he stands. Tell him it's not fair for you to have to leave because Lioness changes her mind. Both agree you will be having a baby with him (as that arrangement between you and him should not have changed because a third party, lioness, changed her mind - that's is a YOU and WOLF decision).

2. Talk to Lioness. Tell her that EITHER you have baby with wolf and you, she and him and are all co-parents and family, OR you have baby with WOLF, and he is hinge in a V with both of you, BUT she doesn't get say in whither you have baby with wolf. Essentially, you are going to be wife and parent with wolf, but what she needs to decide is whether that is a triad or a V. She does t get to decide on you and wolf, she gets to decide if she wants to be part of triad with you and wolf or whether she just wants to be wife and mother with wolf, and not you (in which case, you are a V).

3. Tell lioness you cannot continue playing happy families while this hangs in the balance, so you are doing (X Y Z) to meet your own needs (maybe this means spending less time with them, staying elsewhere for a while).

4. Tell lioness your boundary is if your relationship is to be changed, you need to know by (X Date - how long? A week? 2 weeks?). Otherwise, if she doesn't have an answer by then, for your own emotional safety, you will consider the you + her part of it over and move to a V with wolf as hinge anyway.

5. Then take your leave and come back to her on the day you have set for her answer.

The only part of this I would possibly change is the having a kid with wolf bit. You and him might decide that if you have a V and he has new kids already, that maybe it's better for you to be a mother with some other man. But I would NOT be letting Lioness decide what you do with wolf, that is between you and him. At the moment, you are allowing her indecision to write your life script. Take back some control and resestablish which parts of this she has a say in and which parts she doesn't. Just because she doesn't want to be a triad with you in it doesn't mean anything else has to change. Just because it doesn't turn out to be the plan you wanted, doesn't mean the other only option is you leave and get nothing.

Just saying...there's no way I'd allow someone else to do that to me. But then I think it's really low for someone to enter into an arrangement with has been agreed to, and put lots of their life energy into that (as you have done), and then, when the other party (lioness) gets everything they want, they suddenly reneg on the part of the arrangement where you get what you were promised. That's not fair to you at all.
 
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I agree that you may not want to be ascribing bad intent to Lioness unless you have seen this behavior from her before. It just makes you feel worse and gets in the way of finding a solution with Lioness and the man who loves you both.
 
I was going to write a post very similar to what Infinity wrote. I think you would do well to read Infinity's post carefully. There are many good points in there.

You have a relationship with Wolf, and the two of you want to have a baby together. She is the one who is now possibly opting out, and she needs to take responsibility for that instead of laying it all on you. Just because she and Wolf are legally married does not mean it is okay for her to think she is in control of YOUR relationship with him. She has no right to dictate to you what choices you are allowed to make about YOUR body. You and Wolf are two autonomous beings who make your own choices in life. If she no longer consents to the arrangement, she can leave it - she isn't the boss or dictator over Wolf, nor you. If you and Wolf want a baby, I see no reason why you cannot do it. The only issue she is wanting to change is the co-parenting/household makeup.

However, what I got from what you wrote upthread is not that she would be forcing you out of the relationship and living situation, but that you would choose to leave if what you wanted from the arrangement is no longer what is available. There is no longer consensus among all three of you on the shape and goals of your triad and so you would exit. On one side of the coin, that is indeed indicative of you standing up for your autonomy and saying, "This isn't what I want, and I'm not going to hang around and accept less than what I want," so brava for that. But on the other side of the coin, I do think there are alternatives - it may be possible you can all have mostly what you want, with some compromises and without having to end things. You may just need to think more creatively.

After reading your posts, LSB, I was wondering if perhaps a large part of what Lioness is fearful or unsure about is the legal and financial aspects of this arrangement. Have you all addressed such concerns? If you have a baby with Wolf, what are his legal responsibilities and how do they impact Lioness? Are you all sharing costs of having the baby? If, for whatever reason down the road, you do split up after you have a baby, what about child support? It's just that I was thinking that in a year's time, as the babies have grown, Lioness may have become quite protective and wanting to know that nothing will take away from their security.

I also was thinking that she and Wolf could get a divorce (not to split up, but to stay together under different parameters). That would level the playing field. You all could create some other kind of partnership, like an LLC.
 
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1. Have conversation with Wolf. See where he stands. Tell him it's not fair for you to have to leave because Lioness changes her mind. Both agree you will be having a baby with him (as that arrangement between you and him should not have changed because a third party, lioness, changed her mind - that's is a YOU and WOLF decision).

2. Talk to Lioness. Tell her that EITHER you have baby with wolf and you, she and him and are all co-parents and family, OR you have baby with WOLF, and he is hinge in a V with both of you, BUT she doesn't get say in whither you have baby with wolf. Essentially, you are going to be wife and parent with wolf, but what she needs to decide is whether that is a triad or a V. She does t get to decide on you and wolf, she gets to decide if she wants to be part of triad with you and wolf or whether she just wants to be wife and mother with wolf, and not you (in which case, you are a V).

This is certainly something to consider. All should be aware that it's a possibility to have Wolf as hinge and perhaps separate housholds, both be mothers yet don't share parenting. Trouble is, as I've understood,
1) they didn't recognize Bat as equal yet, it's just a vision they were supposed to work to.
(If it was me, I wouldn't have gotten into coparenting if it's so, but well, it happened.)
2) Bat doesn't want such an arrangement

I hope the storm settles. Lionness may be just overwhelmed by the necessity to make the next step.

However taking vacation for a week might remind her how much contribution Bat has...
 
Answer to One Question - Two More to Go?

First, I think you are all right that ascribing negative thoughts / feelings to Lioness is a mistake. That's just my fear speaking up and I can do better to recognize it and then let it go. <3

However, what I got from what you wrote upthread is not that she would be forcing you out of the relationship and living situation, but that you would choose to leave if what you wanted from the arrangement is no longer what is available. There is no longer consensus among all three of you on the shape and goals of your triad and so you would exit.

Yes, that's it exactly. Even if Lioness says no to the baby, I would still be quite welcome to stay and continue the existing relationship. Even if we part ways, I am safe knowing that I would have a place to be until I could make other arrangements. (We're all being very mature and civil about this-- no complaints there!)

I appreciate the suggestions about thinking more creatively about possible solutions even if Lioness says NO to baby 4. I have been trying to think of them, but have not been very successful, as most things I've imagined have other complications or reasons they don't appeal:

- Wolf wants a child with me, but not at the price of divorce with Lioness. It isn't entirely fair, but that's the reality. (For what it's worth, I really want the baby too, but I don't want to be a cause of divorce. I never wanted to be a home-wrecker!)

- If I stay where I am (shared living) and Lioness does not want Baby 4, I won't be allowed to have the baby. I have considered whether or not I'd be willing to raise Wolf's child in another household, but Wolf says that he wouldn't be happy with such an arrangement, that it would break his heart not to live with the child and me.

So, as far as I can see, if Lioness says NO to baby 4, my choices then become
1) Stay with the family anyway
2) Leave to have a relationship (and maybe a child) with someone else

And maybe I'm not thinking outside the box well enough. If you think there might be another way to compromise, I'm game. I just don't know that this is one of those situations.

You're right that finances may be some of the worry too. Kids are expensive! One of the things we've tossed around that way (but certainly haven't decided upon) is whether I might become a stay-at-home mom to help ease some of the financial burden there. Lioness has NO desire to be a stay at home parent whatsoever, and Wolf plans to continue his work until he is eligible for its pension plan. The cost of childcare for four children may make it desirable for us to have one of us stay home, and I am not adverse to it-- rather, I'd take it as a challenge to do the very best I could by the kids that way. When we talked about it, Lioness laughed and said that I would definitely be a "Pinterest mom," which is true. I'm the kind of person that would come up with lesson plans and activities to help stimulate the kiddos, if that's the direction we decided to go.

If we had a baby and then split up, Wolf is the type that would still want to help make sure that the child was cared for, and would offer support as needed. Honestly, I think Lioness is too-- one of her concerns for whether or not to have baby 4 is that, if we broke up later, she would lose a piece of her heart when I left. (Kind of ironic, since I've fallen in love with her three kiddos already, no?) Anyway, I told her that, just as she has promised me that I will be always be involved in the kids' lives no matter what, if we break up after baby 4 is born, I shall do the same for her.

That was a bit of a tangent, but my point was that, yes, finances are definitely something we're considering. The possible conflict of time, energy, and resources may well be one of the things that is weighing heavily on Lioness's mind.

Now, the good news!
Last night I asked Lioness if she had ever been excited about Baby 4, or if she was just trying to be excited because she knows how much it means to Wolf and me. She responded that she was (and is!) excited, she just has some reservations.

I told her that was good to hear and that it helped make the wait for answers a little more bearable, and she asked if I would like to know some of the positive things she'd already worked out. Of course I said yes.

Lioness then told me that she wasn't sure why she had such a knee-jerk reaction to my asking if/when I might be called "mom / mommy / another term" by the children (especially since I'd made my feelings about that known months ago), but that after thinking about it, of course I should be called "mom", because that is the role I've been taking with them.

I am so happy, and knowing that helps me hold on a little longer for the answers to the other two questions.
 
I actually agree with you that your options are to either abide with/negotiate with Lioness, or go on to a new life. I don't see a lot of smooth sailing in doing what you want with Wolf in defiance of Lioness's wishes, I don't think either of you want to stand up to her objections and override her. I get the sense that such a lack of harmony would be hurtful, and you are as cognizant as anyone of the lives on the line, so it's a unanimous decision, or it's a break.

When kids are involved, it's about more than the romantic relationships and what the grownups want. There's a lot to consider. I respect your position.

It is my feeling that Lioness's reservations are based on fears. Would it be realistic for you to maybe ask her if she would consider writing down every single thing she can think of that gives her an uncomfortableness with the arrangement you all initially negotiated. Not so that you can argue them down until she relents, but to see if the three of you as a team can overcome with creative thinking and negotiation and alternatives in life planning, any issues that are bothering her about all of this.

It is understandable that some of it might just be a squidgy gut feeling on her part, a fear and an insecurity, that is not really based on logical life things that can be reasoned away...and that while you are prepared to be understanding of that, it's pretty unfair to expect 2/3 of the adult household to jump tracks on the whole plan just because it's a little scary to one.

At the same time, asking her to undertake this exercise, I think that you and Wolf should also sit down (individually) and write down your life goals. What you want. And next to each thing, something like "hope" "pipe dream" "negotiable" "dealbreaker" as in, determine if a thing (such as you wanting the experience of biological motherhood) is critically important to your happiness, or just something you would like. And be brutally honest, all of you, with no leeway for what you think the others want to hear from you.

Set a date. Maybe a week or something out. A family meeting. This is not an ultimatum, then, this is a date where you can all schedule the time to sit down as adults and kitchen table this matter with your thoughts organized and written down.

Honestly, if Lioness sees you as "secondary" to the point of inferior, to the point of servant, and to the point of her needs mattering and yours not so much... You need more security and respect than that. I get that maybe she's coming to understand just how much resources a child takes, and is afraid of splitting what's available in yet one more direction. But what she is suggesting is not fair for you. What I'm afraid of is that, having made this decision (regardless of how long she's felt this way) she is holding onto you and hoping you'll go along and get along, simply because now she knows her kids love you, and does not want to deprive them of you.
 
When kids are involved, it's about more than the romantic relationships and what the grownups want. There's a lot to consider. I respect your position.

Oh, yes. We've all acknowledged / avowed that the children are high priority, for many reasons. Thank you for seeing that. I am touched and honored.

It is my feeling that Lioness's reservations are based on fears. Would it be realistic for you to maybe ask her if she would consider writing down every single thing she can think of that gives her an uncomfortableness with the arrangement you all initially negotiated.

A very good point. When Lioness told us that she had some concerns, Wolf asked if she might write them down for us. She did, and it was some of those concerns that made me wonder if they were just symptoms of an underlying issue with me being (a true equal) called spouse/mother and with a biological child.

Here are the concerns she voiced (and my response):
- when we discussed the relationship, she didn't realize the life goal of a biological baby was a "deal-breaker"
(I apologized that I did not make it more clear then, and that while I have always wanted a bio baby, I know for certain now that it is a deal breaker desire for me.)

- she worries about our ages, as certain aches and pains have cropped up recently that make her feel older, and that same age gap will make things difficult when we are older and the child may have a child of their own.
(I reminded her that we were waiting/delaying as part of a compromise to her because, when we very first talked, she wanted to put it off several more years than what we have finally agreed upon, and that we could move up the timeline if that is what she needs now.)

- she bemoans the current lack of "kid free" time, and postulates that having another in early 2018 would delay us in getting any more "kid free time" by at least five years, and also adds five more years before we could possibly do a family vacation where everyone can remember it.
(I volunteered that moving up the timeline could again help resolve this, and that it's okay with me if we do a family vacation before baby 4 can "remember" it-- and that we can do others later, too, if we plan well.)

- she worries about how the parenting needs for baby 4 will be met, particularly late night sessions
(I was actually a little hurt by this one, as we had previously agreed that I was doing an excellent job, and that the night duties were one thing that I should do less of as my work is less forgiving of me having to miss for children that are "not mine," and because I make a morning commute that could be dangerous if I am sleep deprived --the latter of which was actually her point when we had the conversation--. Anyway, I told her that I have always been of the opinion that certain duties/responsibilities would shift appropriately for baby 4, including late nights, and that I hope to have the baby bassinet sleep or have me sleep in the nursery when necessary to help mitigate the stress of those late nights.)

- she worried about falling in love with the baby and then losing it if I should ever need to leave later.
(I told her that, just as she promised me that I will always be part of her bio kids' lives, I too, promise that she will always be part of Baby 4's life, no matter what. I know that we will always work hard to take care of not only each other, but the children, just as we have already promised each other.)

- she said that she recognizes that it's "an awful Catch 22:" on one hand we want to have Baby 4 soon (our ages) but, on the other hand, she doesn't want to rush into things AND doesn't want to have kids too close together
(I can respect this, of course. I don't want to rush into it either. However, I told her that, if we are going to have Baby 4, we will simply have to decide which of these risks we'd rather face. Should we risk babies that are "too close" together and the possibility that we might someday part ways, or should we wait longer and risk that we will all be "too old" later on? I told her that we should weigh the pros and cons of each.)

A note here-- she has not yet responded to my counterpoints. : /

sit down (individually) and write down your life goals. What you want. And next to each thing, something like "hope" "pipe dream" "negotiable" "dealbreaker" as in, determine if a thing (such as you wanting the experience of biological motherhood) is critically important to your happiness, or just something you would like.

I like your idea here. We have had conversations about this in the past, but I like the addition of putting it down on paper and, particularly, of ranking them.

But what she is suggesting is not fair for you. What I'm afraid of is that, having made this decision (regardless of how long she's felt this way) she is holding onto you and hoping you'll go along and get along, simply because now she knows her kids love you, and does not want to deprive them of you.

Reading that, I realize that I am very grateful to you for saying so. I think I felt that the (possible) arrangement was unfair, but wasn't giving myself enough credit, or was telling myself, "Yeah, but life isn't fair, suck it up." Hearing someone else say it validated it in a way I didn't realize I needed, so thank you.
 
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