Collateral Damage

WhatHappened

Active member
More to come, but I wanted to at least start this blog.

As I think about XBF's (who will get a name someday) experiences over the last 20+ years and his mantra that he and his wife are very, very happy, as I think about some of the things he told me about previous women he's been involved with, Collateral Damage seems a good summation of his life and values. So it seems a good name for this blog.

He's really, really sorry I'm hurt. But he's not sorry about anything he or his wife actually did. They live as they do and they are very, very happy, and it's too bad there's Collateral Damage.
 
Collateral damage is a general term for deaths, injuries, or other damage inflicted on an unintended target.

I may provide more background later, but today I'll stick with saying, recent events continue to convince me that our relationship was not as full of altruistic selfless love as he claimed. Rather that his brand of poly really is all about himself and his wife.

He never meant to hurt me but he did--as he had hurt other women before. Sorry you're hurt. But I'm not going to change the way I'm living that has left a trail of pain. He and his wife simply don't mind a little collateral damage. As long as it's working for them, they're willing to pay that price.

After breaking up a few years ago we've maintained some connection due to a work/special interest group where we met. Over the months/years since we broke up, he has turned every business contact into personal e-mails, telling me all about his life. What he really told me all about was how rough life was, how hard, how very tough.

Bit by bit, a pattern came out. He didn't ask much about mine. When I told him a few things, he gave a quick pat nod to it and went back to paragraphs about his own hardships.

I've been curious why he tells me these things. Isn't he getting enough sympathy from his wife? Just trying to reel me back in?

Recently, we've had some contact about work/business again. Once again, he's skimmed over the business aspect to send me long detailed e-mails about all his difficulties.

In the months since our last contact, and since our breakup, I've had my own share of difficulties. Not once has he asked how I'm doing.

Once again, I'm left feeling that anything between us is ultimately about him. And perhaps about his wife. If I could pick up some of the slack and take care of him, she can get on with her next date and boyfriend and not have to deal with it.
 
He never meant to hurt me but he did--as he had hurt other women before. Sorry you're hurt. But I'm not going to change the way I'm living that has left a trail of pain.

Over the months/years since we broke up, he has turned every business contact into personal e-mails, telling me all about his life. What he really told me all about was how rough life was, how hard, how very tough.

Bit by bit, a pattern came out. He didn't ask much about mine. When I told him a few things, he gave a quick pat nod to it and went back to paragraphs about his own hardships.

I've been curious why he tells me these things. Isn't he getting enough sympathy from his wife? Just trying to reel me back in?

In the months since our last contact, and since our breakup, I've had my own share of difficulties. Not once has he asked how I'm doing.

Once again, I'm left feeling that anything between us is ultimately about him. And perhaps about his wife. If I could pick up some of the slack and take care of him, she can get on with her next date and boyfriend and not have to deal with it.

I'm not sure if you've ever read anything about narcissism or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I realise it seems to be the disease du jour at the moment, however if you're unaware of the way these people operate, please do yourself a favour and do a quick google search.

Your (former?) partner's method of giving you just enough attention to cause you to hope he reciprocates your own feeling for him, before turning it off and making it all about him (or his wife), is one of the narcissist's classic behavioural patterns. As is the sob story to gain your sympathy and ensure your focus never strays far from him.

My question is... IF you'd already distanced yourself from this person years ago, what keeps you hanging on, ready to jump every time he says so? You may need to work on your own self esteem and/or assertiveness training of some kind, because this is not a healthy relationship, or even friendship.
 
Your (former?) partner's method of giving you just enough attention to cause you to hope he reciprocates your own feeling for him, before turning it off and making it all about him (or his wife), is one of the narcissist's classic behavioural patterns. As is the sob story to gain your sympathy and ensure your focus never strays far from him.

My question is... IF you'd already distanced yourself from this person years ago, what keeps you hanging on, ready to jump every time he says so? You may need to work on your own self esteem and/or assertiveness training of some kind, because this is not a healthy relationship, or even friendship.

Hi, luna, yes, I've read quite a bit about narcissism and yes, he absolutely fits the profile in many ways.

I'm well aware he's not going to change how he's living and yes, I know his sob stories are a ploy for sympathy. Tone doesn't always come across in writing, and I'm saying this almost with a tone of amusement: here he is again, telling me his sob story. Here he is once again making it all about his needs.

Since we broke up, our contact has been about business. Which he routinely turned into telling me his sob stories. And then him getting angry when I would say the way he's living is causing his problems, or going silent when I'd remind him he has a wife to sympathize and help him with all this.

So there is an amusement factor in asking, why does he keep trying this? He keeps getting the same two answers from me--change your behavior and/or lucky you have a wife to take care of you.

This recent conversation stemmed from me letting him know that one of our mutual friends is very ill. Doing him a favor. He responded, amazingly, with how hard his life is. This isn't me hanging on hoping he'll love me. This is me telling the story of who he is and how he is showing that.

Yes, he has plenty of narcissistic traits. So does she. They are all about themselves and getting their needs met no matter who gets hurt in the process.
 
This isn't me hanging on hoping he'll love me. This is me telling the story of who he is and how he is showing that.
Please pardon me for joining Luna's question, but what is it that still makes you look back after years have passed? You must have been hurt, but so have been many people in relationships - and not everyone is compelled to start blogs about their exes, tell the story of their ex instead of their own. There is some strong driving force withing you, an open question perhaps, which attracts your thoughts again and again and leads to you re-telling over and over again the story of this relationship.
You can do that here, it's your place of course. But I must say I would be genuinely curious about the reason - though I don't expect you to write it out any time soon. I'm also writing this with a slight hope that asking yourself the question "what makes me tell the story again" could maybe, hopefully, give you a little relief from the remaining hurt.
 
Hm...what makes me tell the story again? I wonder if that's a question that is asked of everyone who writes their story, or their memoir, sometimes years after the fact.

If the goal is to do poly well, in a way that leaves everyone loved and happy and fulfilled, then we have things to learn from the stories of those who did poly poorly. Like a football team watching tapes of the game--there are things to be learned from seeing the mistakes made.

I think Byron is a good name for XBF. Byron told me, when I told him some of the sagas going on here, that people here obviously just did poly poorly, that he and his wife had no drama.

Stories he told me suggest that wasn't quite accurate. For instance, an event came up once which resulted in him asking..."You've never had a public scene at a restaurant?" Well, no, actually. I haven't.

He has moved a girlfriend in with him and his wife. To date, I have not seen any FMF arrangements work out. I ultimately broke up with him because of his wife--or, his failure to be a good hinge, depending how you see things. Both can be true.

His wife was thrilled that he'd found a hobby--me--to entertain him while she was out dating. She was not so thrilled when she realized he was actually in love with me, and started playing games to make it clear to me who was really in charge. To make it clear where I really stood.

I told him once, twice, I don't appreciate it. I'm not her door mat. I'm not your pacifier. I'm not a chew toy to be thrown to the dog to keep it happy while she's out with other men. Enough of the games.

It became very clear to me that whatever he thought of our relationship, she thought my purpose was to keep him sated so he didn't get upset about her being out with other men.

His wife tried to walk in on us more than once. Didn't call ahead as she was supposed to, didn't knock. Was just suddenly there at private moments.

He hinted to me that other women had fallen asleep in his bed, that his wife had come in late, left early, and these women never knew she'd been in the bed with them. No big deal. In knowing all I do since then, in knowing how she kept 'accidentally' sorry not sorry walking in on us, I believe that if I'd let him talk me into spending the night, that I may have woken to find her hands on me, and I wonder if this would count as #metoo.

Funny thing: the new GF, after many decades of being straight, suddenly 'discovered' that she likes women. His wife in particular. It seems an amazing coincidence to me, and I suspect it's more that she realized quicker than me that they're unicorn hunters, that he was expected to bring home treats for his wife, and New GF was more willing than I was to do whatever it took to keep him.

The sad upshot of the story is that the new GF is dropping huge hints that she's miserable and disillusioned with her new situation. She turned her life over, sacrificed everything, in ways that can't be undone, to be with him and it is going sour very quickly.
 
#metoo

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=385571&postcount=21

I frequently see posts here that make me think, this is exactly why I titled my blog as I did. I rarely have time to write about them.

This post is no better or worse than any other that has made me think this. I just have, or am taking, a little time today.

Over and over in the world of polyamory, we hear the phrase 'getting my needs met.' When we live life by thinking only of getting our own needs met, there are bound to be problems. Life works better if we're all looking at meeting each other's needs.

And here we see again a situation where there was a fantasy--sexual and possibly otherwise. Another person was brought in, it's all going haywire, and the clear answer is to save the marriage.

I'm all for saving marriages. But as is so often the case, there is no consideration given to the secondary. The answer is invariably 1) how do I save myself and by definition 2) how do I save the marriage with no consideration that the actions of the couple have had profound impact on another person who also has feelings, whose life and emotions have also been upended by this.

The answer on the board is: what do you want?

The answer for a mature person should be or at least include: how do you face the impact of your actions on another person and what can you do to provide the least harm to all involved? But generally, the people brought into these situations are dismissed as collateral damage--oops, sorry--if they're considered at all.

* * *

In my own personal situation, it's time to give XBF and his wife names. Byron is suitable for him. Iago works well for her. She is deceptive.

I came across a blog she keeps in which she films people she works with when they clearly don't know they're being filmed. I find it creepy and invasive. She and I were at the same restaurant this past August. Twice I looked up to realize she was filming me with my date. No, it's not exactly what the #metoo movement means. But it's creepy and invasive.

Although I'm still in regular contact with Byron, I have not bothered telling him this. While I was with him, she tried a few times to walk in on us in what she expected to be intimate moments. #metoo. She had a hundred excuses for why she couldn't help it. Once is a mistake. Beyond that, it quickly becomes a pattern. Byron's response was to deny.

He expressed the wish many times that I would feel comfortable falling asleep in his bed with him. Told me how previous 'girlfriends' meaning one night and one week stands, had, and never even knew Iago had come and gone in the night.

A post a couple of months ago, a woman talked about sleeping in bed with her girlfriend and waking up to find the husband's hands on her.

A friend read the post and made the comment to me: that's exactly what would have happened to you, if you'd spent the night with him. Given her other behavior, I also believe that. #metoo.

True it never happened. I don't know it would have happened. But it never happened because her previous behavior made me unwilling to trust her. If she was going to keep walking in on me and trying to cop a glance while I was fully conscious, I have no reason to trust her while I'm unconscious.

Her habit of filming people secretly only convinces me more that she has absolutely no boundaries and no respect for anyone else as autonomous human beings with rights to boundaries and respect. And that I was right to refuse to be put in that situation.

The sad thing is...human nature. Iago herself complains about men violating her. She has completely blinded herself to how she herself violates others' privacy and boundaries.

Another sad thing is, Byron denies and refuses to admit to the clear patterns and behavior. I wonder if the upshot with his newest girlfriend--the only one he's ever gotten to stay for any length of time--will finally be the straw that forces him to admit at least to himself what's going on. More on that later.
 
In recent months, Byron and Iago have moved the new girlfriend in. He had continued to send me warm emails and texts, not telling me the whole truth about many things, including that he had a girlfriend at all.

I'm guessing this is why the GF is suddenly so interested in meeting me. In a major metropolitan area, our paths 'accidentally' cross way too many times for coincidence. Online. Off line. She's everywhere. All in a very short time. Leaving stories, photography, and art work on some of my online groups and giving 'performances' at IRL events, in front of me, to make sure I know he is hers.

I also got an interesting anonymous message making sure I know I'm worthless. Given the circumstances, there is no doubt she did it. For the record, it only made me sad for her. Obviously she's hurting.

But it makes no sense as I am not pursuing him or interfering in their relationship or trying to break them up. She's missing that her real problem is his behavior and his heart. Following me around and attacking me are not going to help that.

But I also think it makes no sense for someone to get involved in a poly amorous, multiple loves, family and then be upset, to stalkerish levels, that her boyfriend loves another woman.

If she were really accepting of polyamory, she would feel for him still missing me. She would be trying to help us get back together, which she knows he wants.

Of course, I also know that her agitation is probably coming from him probably being as dishonest with her as he's been with me. But she doesn't want to face that he is the problem, not me.

Byron continually told me he and Iago don't do drama. I see constant drama in their lives and 95% of the drama in my own life comes from them, even this long after I broke up with him.
 
I don't understand why you are still in contact with Byron or anyone from his life. It sounds like a nightmare!

I'm confused--who do you think sent you the anonymous message? Byron's wife (Iago) or his new girlfriend? Why would his new girlfriend have such a problem with you, Byron's ex?

Byron & Iago remind me of my college boyfriend and his live-in partner (my first experience with polyamory). She had no sense of privacy and I was always afraid she's come into the bedroom where I was sleeping. He insisted that she could do no wrong and if I had any problem with her, then I was crazy & jealous & controlling.

She began doing increasingly nasty & underhanded things, he kept accusing me of being jealous & controlling, while gaslighting me and flirting with tons of other college-aged young women (he was 28, I was 21). It only ended because he dumped me, saying that I "made him feel guilty." (Wish I had been wise enough to dump him long before that!)

Luckily, I became a happy person with those two nutjobs out of my life. Later I realized that a lot of her "crazy" behavior was because he was lying to her as much as he was lying to me.
 
I don't understand why you are still in contact with Byron or anyone from his life. It sounds like a nightmare!


Hi, Meera, sorry, I never saw this until now. Byron and I had a small business together. He kept finding 'business' reasons to contact me. He was doling out information to help me in that--and a reason to stay in touch.

It was a question of do I accept help that could be the major breakthrough or cut him off?

When the GF became stalkerish, I chose B. All three of them have long since been blocked everywhere.

I'm confused--who do you think sent you the anonymous message? …. Why would his new girlfriend have such a problem with you, Byron's ex?

The GF left it. Given the circumstances, there is no doubt it was her. I assume she read his e-mails to me, which were overly warm, didn't mention her existence, and would make many people think he was hinting that he wanted to leave her and the wife both.

She deserved to be upset and angry. The problem is her failure to face that he is her problem, and he was deceiving both of us.

Byron & Iago remind me of my college boyfriend and his live-in partner (my first experience with polyamory). She had no sense of privacy and I was always afraid she's come into the bedroom where I was sleeping. He insisted that she could do no wrong and if I had any problem with her, then I was crazy & jealous & controlling.

She began doing increasingly nasty & underhanded things, he kept accusing me of being jealous & controlling, while gaslighting me and flirting with tons of other college-aged young women (he was 28, I was 21). It only ended because he dumped me, saying that I "made him feel guilty." (Wish I had been wise enough to dump him long before that!)

Luckily, I became a happy person with those two nutjobs out of my life. Later I realized that a lot of her "crazy" behavior was because he was lying to her as much as he was lying to me.

My guess is that this is a common enough story.
 
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=412568#post412568

Some posts here really hit home. This is one of them.

I don't say this in judgment, because when we love someone, we want them to stay. When we've been with someone a long time, it's very hard to let go, to lose them, to change the pattern and rhythm of our lives, to face that empty spot they filled for so long, and that made us happy.

The feelings are not selfish. But to act on them, to try to keep someone in your life when you know it is hurting him and keeping him from a greater happiness, in fact to keep him from the same happiness you yourself enjoy, yes that would be selfish.

I see the value in forums like this in being able to learn from each other, to read someone else's story and understand our own from another angle, so we can make the best possible decisions.

I have been on the receiving end of someone trying to hang onto me.

Before I broke up with Byron, I was clear on what I needed to change: Iago has to stop playing games. If I'm your girlfriend, I expect to be treated with the same respect as any other girlfriend and that includes expecting everyone involved to behave like adults.

When I broke up with him, I was clear why. Her behavior and his failure to expect her to do poly well and with respect for his girlfriend.

He had two decent options: Let me go gracefully or tell her to behave.

Instead, he hung on without doing the hard work. He repeatedly used 'business' contact to become steadily warmer. His words and manner were screaming I love you and miss you. He did and said things that suggested he was ready to deal with the problems, that we could really move forward.

I'll give him this--I think in some fantasy part of his mind, he did want to walk away from it all and be with me. He lied to himself before he lied to me.

But he failed to consider, or didn't care, how his actions impacted me. I still believe he loved me in a way he has never loved anyway. But he was too invested in his pain and what he wanted--to admit that he was deliberately leading me on, hoping his fantasy of keeping me in his life, of getting back to what we had, would miraculously come true. To admit to himself that it couldn't possibly happen unless he made hard choices.

To admit to himself that he was not going to make those hard choices.

Day by day, he craved the contact with me. So he kept doing it. Refusing to admit to himself that in the process, he was making it difficult, if not impossible, for me to move on with my own life, to find someone else.

Hindsight is 20-20--largely because by then we have all the pieces to see clearly. Yes, I should have cut him off cold. Had I known then all I know now, I'm pretty sure I would have.

I don't judge someone (the OP of the linked thread or Byron) for wanting to hang on. It is human nature. It is hard to let go of someone you love.

And that's the same reason no one can be judged for not cutting contact sooner--because it is human nature to hope and believe in the love you know existed, to hope and believe that the person with whom you shared such deep love will fix the problems, to hope and believe that you can get back into the pages of that beautiful love story that brought you so much happiness.

And in many stories, that's what happens--one or both people do value each other enough to fix the problems. But you can't know whether they really will until you've given them that chance.

He took advantage of that hope.

The moral of the story is that people need to face the themselves and make the decision: Are they capable of fixing the problem? Are they willing to fix the problem? Or are they going to continue trying to have it all, choosing to blind themselves to how that affects the one they love?

If you can't or won't fix the problem and meet the needs of the one you love, if you can't give them the same things you yourself have and won't let go of--then let them go. Leave them alone and stay out of their lives so they can move on. Yes, it hurts. But if you love someone, you must think of their needs and their happiness.
 
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...the longer I date Charles, the more I understand the mono perspective that another partner takes away from my time and resources with Henry. Realistically, I see that it's not all that different than having a hobby, certainly less demanding than hobbies I've had in the past ….

As a 'secondary,' one who knew polyamory only because I met someone who had an open, polyamorous marriage, I came here years ago looking for help in understanding what I might really be to a man married but open.

As much as Byron talked about openness, honesty, and communication, he never really could explain what I was to him, where I really stood. I came here looking for that understanding.

I can't help but notice, the many years I've been here, that this forum is almost entirely populated by those who are hinges--who have a steady partner and a spare. It has not gone over my head that in many years here, I see very few people involved in polyamory in the position of 'secondary.' I wonder why that is. I have a few ideas.

Byron swore that he and his wife were non-hierarchical, that I was just as important. Events did not prove him on that.

Then I read something like this (quoted above). Yes, I have always been here to try to understand, to try to believe everything Byron told me, and then I see that, in the mind of at least one poly person (that is, the married poly person in a relationship in addition to the spouse) they compare their other partner to A HOBBY.

I once again have to ask myself: is that what I was to him? A HOBBY? Were my emotions, my feelings, my setting aside others (because my heart was wrapped up in him), my very time and years and life and every beautiful moment we shared, that meant so much to me, nothing but a HOBBY to him? A fun little distraction?

To me, it was my heart, my emotions, my ability to connect with someone who could really give me his full life, a family, a home, in-laws, a house, etc. But maybe to him, I was really just 'a hobby.' Something to kill time when his wife was out screwing other men and he had nothing better to do.

In truth, I don't really believe that. I meant more to him than that, emotionally. And yet, no matter what his emotions, on another level, that's really all I was to him--a beautiful distraction while his wife was out screwing other men.
 
WH - Thank you for posting, it was an opportunity for me to re-read your blog and take a step back to review a different perspective

Random comment on an old post:
Hm...what makes me tell the story again? I wonder if that's a question that is asked of everyone who writes their story, or their memoir, sometimes years after the fact..

Yes, actually, I notice that in a lot of interviews with authors of an autobiographical nature that the interviewer will ask what prompted the person to write their story.

Many years ago on a different thread, I answered a question about what commitment would look like in a poly relationship:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187800&postcount=365

5 years after that post - my answer is the same, but now I am struggling with the fact that Dude is not working from the same priority list that I am when it comes to "commitment". He wants all the trappings - social acknowledgement, PDAs, family inclusion. But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty - bills, money, savings, insurance - that is of no interest. Even though we have been living together (along with MrS) for 8 years, it feels like he would prefer being a "hobby" than an adult with responsibilities. (And no, he doesn't have any equity in the house, because he never paid anything into it! For the record, neither does MrS...)
 
Thank you for your answer, Jayne. It's evidence that it can go both ways and that people on either side of the equation can end up feeling like a hobby or a time filler and I'm sorry you're dealing with that.

Yes, actually, I notice that in a lot of interviews with authors of an autobiographical nature that the interviewer will ask what prompted the person to write their story.

That is true of memoirs or autobiographies. I don't think I've seen the question asked on this forum, however, of people who decide to tell their story.

Many years ago on a different thread, I answered a question about what commitment would look like in a poly relationship:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187800&postcount=365

I can't speak for MoD or your boyfriend but I can address that from MY standpoint - a lot of the things that you bring up here ARE part of what I see as part of the committed relationship that I am offering to my boyfriend when it comes to being in a relationship with a married woman:

  • Mutual Financial support
  • Being there in Old Age
  • Sharing Retirement
  • Moving Together if job requires (although I don't anticipate this)
  • (we don't have kids so that doesn't apply - but if we did, they would be part of this as well)

5 years after that post - my answer is the same, but now I am struggling with the fact that Dude is not working from the same priority list that I am when it comes to "commitment". He wants all the trappings - social acknowledgement, PDAs, family inclusion. But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty - bills, money, savings, insurance - that is of no interest. Even though we have been living together (along with MrS) for 8 years, it feels like he would prefer being a "hobby" than an adult with responsibilities. (And no, he doesn't have any equity in the house, because he never paid anything into it! For the record, neither does MrS...)

Have you talked to Dude about being one of the adults in the family? I'm assuming you must have by now. What is his response?

Your list sounds reasonable--and of course happened to correlate with exactly what I mentioned in that long ago post that I knew I would never be offered by Byron. I would have stayed with him forever, without need of marriage or exclusivity, had we had that sort of agreement to be there fore each other.

Sadly, what really drove it home for me was the day I was in major crisis in the wake of a natural disaster in the area, trees down everywhere, flooding, damage to houses, days without power; and he couldn't be bothered to check his local store, a 35 second drive, to grab ice for my freezer (stores everywhere were completely sold out and I had no power for a week and kids to feed; I was on the brink of physical exhaustion from dealing with it all). He certainly didn't come to help me chop apart the downed trees in my yard or clear them out before they collapsed on my roof and caved in my kitchen--I did that alone, with my kids helping.

But he dropped everything, took half a day off work to deal with a refrigerator repairman for his wife. While I appreciate that clearly he thinks I'm way more capable than his wife, that was really the beginning of the end, when I saw that his claims of being able to treat us equally were bogus. As much as he truly cared for me, in the end I was still just a feel good distraction while his wife was off screwing other men, and a salve to his wounded ego that she was busier with them than with him.

I was what allowed him to 'do poly' with her, by filling his evenings and being the pretty thing on his arm that made him feel good about himself in front of other men. But he wasn't about to give up a whole day or get his hands dirty to help me when I needed him.

Recently, a member who likes to tell others what people really think, informed someone (without bothering to ask me) that I am 'anti-poly.' My response was that I am anti poly done badly. I stand by that. And this is part of why I continue to post here.

Had Byron and his wife done poly well, I would still be with him and I believe the stories of those who experienced BAD poly are equally valuable to those who genuinely want to practice it well.

Want to do poly well? Understand that the AMORY part, LOVE, requires giving genuinely to both people with whom you're involved. It's not just about getting one's needs met, but also giving and being there for another.
 
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WH I am so sorry that Byron treated you the way he did.

I hope I never treat Murf that way.

I do not think you are antipoly. I personally get angry here at some of the self centered and self serving attitudes. I think we do not see a lot of secondaries because they are scared to admit to themselves that they are not equal but a dirty little secret.
 
As a 'secondary,' one who knew polyamory only because I met someone who had an open, polyamorous marriage, I came here years ago looking for help in understanding what I might really be to a man married but open.

As much as Byron talked about openness, honesty, and communication, he never really could explain what I was to him, where I really stood. I came here looking for that understanding.

I can't help but notice, the many years I've been here, that this forum is almost entirely populated by those who are hinges--who have a steady partner and a spare. It has not gone over my head that in many years here, I see very few people involved in polyamory in the position of 'secondary.' I wonder why that is. I have a few ideas.

Byron swore that he and his wife were non-hierarchical, that I was just as important. Events did not prove him on that.

Then I read something like this (quoted above). Yes, I have always been here to try to understand, to try to believe everything Byron told me, and then I see that, in the mind of at least one poly person (that is, the married poly person in a relationship in addition to the spouse) they compare their other partner to A HOBBY.

I once again have to ask myself: is that what I was to him? A HOBBY? Were my emotions, my feelings, my setting aside others (because my heart was wrapped up in him), my very time and years and life and every beautiful moment we shared, that meant so much to me, nothing but a HOBBY to him? A fun little distraction?

To me, it was my heart, my emotions, my ability to connect with someone who could really give me his full life, a family, a home, in-laws, a house, etc. But maybe to him, I was really just 'a hobby.' Something to kill time when his wife was out screwing other men and he had nothing better to do.

In truth, I don't really believe that. I meant more to him than that, emotionally. And yet, no matter what his emotions, on another level, that's really all I was to him--a beautiful distraction while his wife was out screwing other men.

Wow. That has to be the worst possible interpretation of what I said.

I get the feeling that you and I are just generally not the kind of people who will communicate well with each other, since we seem to have had that issue before.

I was comparing the BLOCK OF TIME. I was not comparing my boyfriend to a hobby. I can't believe I even need to say that.

I also find your wording of "a partner and a spare" to be rather on the offensive side. Neither of my partners is a spare. As for your whole bit about polyamory being about giving and not just about needs being met, did you even read the rest of my post? The whole point was that I wanted to make sure I am adequately caring for my husband and meeting his needs, now that it's become apparent that my boyfriend is a serious thing and is going to be around.
 
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I agree with Vicki. You've taken her post completely out of context. I read it as hobbies we are passionate about taking up a similar amount of time and energy as a second relationship. She was not comparing her relationship to a hobby just the time and energy expended. Anyone who regularly reads her blog can see the care she takes to ensure that both of her partners receive the care and attention they deserve.

We do actually have happy secondaries who post here...just most of them also have a primary partner or multiple partners. That's the same thing I've seen in the poly communities I've visited around my area....couples who participate in hierarchical relationships frequently dating someone who is also in a hierarchical relationship with another partner.

What doesn't work is when someone who practices hierarchy isn't honest about that hierarchy from the start (like your ex). Or, when people lack the skills and empathy to treat other people humanely and instead treat them as things (like your ex.) But, that has nothing to do with poly and everything to do with the person in the relationship. My guess is your ex would be a bad partner even in a mono relationship.
 
I agree with Vicki. You've taken her post completely out of context. I read it as hobbies we are passionate about taking up a similar amount of time and energy as a second relationship. She was not comparing her relationship to a hobby just the time and energy expended. Anyone who regularly reads her blog can see the care she takes to ensure that both of her partners receive the care and attention they deserve.

We do actually have happy secondaries who post here...just most of them also have a primary partner or multiple partners. That's the same thing I've seen in the poly communities I've visited around my area....couples who participate in hierarchical relationships frequently dating someone who is also in a hierarchical relationship with another partner.

What doesn't work is when someone who practices hierarchy isn't honest about that hierarchy from the start (like your ex). Or, when people lack the skills and empathy to treat other people humanely and instead treat them as things (like your ex.) But, that has nothing to do with poly and everything to do with the person in the relationship. My guess is your ex would be a bad partner even in a mono relationship.

Or when people have unrealistic expectations about what their partner can realistically offer. For example, a surgeon with a wife and three young kids is not going to be able to see you five times a week. Even if they promise they will. Most spouses are not going to acknowledge a conflict of interest between their partners and let go of the most established partner. Even if they are the least suited to their new desires.

It is always going to be difficult if someone wants more than is really on offer. Some people stick strictly to dating people with a similar set up to them. They wouldn't have a 'secondary' who doesn't have a 'primary'.
 
I went into poly being told all relationships can be equal if we want them to be, being told my relationship WAS equal to that of Byron's wife.

I am happy for those who can promise this and achieve it. This is the true meaning of poly, right?

My concern is that so few can really follow through on it, DESPITE their promises...or perhaps that they promise what they cannot in truth deliver.

I said elsewhere:

We're all here to work together to learn how to do poly better, right?

My point remains, if one has two husbands, then one has two husbands. A husband is a husband, right? If one has a homeowner who contributed money and a renter who contributed lots of sweat equity and lots of money...it's reasonable to see how one of those husbands feels his contribution is being treated differently and perhaps he himself is not really on the same level as the other husband.

The set up says from the very start that one husband is trusted and one is not (exactly), that one husband is assumed to be staying and one is at best, on probation of sorts. One husband gets the equity from the start and the other gets his equity only if he meets certain conditions.

If I were one of two wives and I was told I was equal, I would never agree to such disparate treatment and conditions and in fact such different conditions would tell me I wasn't really the equal wife I was told I was.

I am all for poly and multiple loving relationships. I think it's a beautiful ideal and wonderful when it works. But it takes a lot of depth and looking at oneself to really live that ideal.

I left my poly relationship because I was not treated like an equal partner, despite what I was promised. If she had a smoking gun in her hand aimed at my knee cap and smoke was coming out of my kneecap and I was bleeding and an X-ray showed a bullet in my kneecap and I said, "She just shot me," and she said, "I don't even own a gun," Byron would have glanced from the smoking gun in her hand to my bleeding kneecap and said with the utmost sorrow for my delusion dripping from his voice, "But Baby! She doesn't even own a gun!"

In my poly relationship, I expected to treat her well and I expected her to treat me well and I expected the honesty and equality I was promised.

For the record, I run in the same social circles as Byron's current girlfriend of something like 6 years now. I find it sad to see how she continues to have to hide the truth. It makes me glad I'm no longer involved in HIS form of poly.

I'm all for those who practice truly equal and open poly.
 
To me, what you are missing in your assessment of that particular situation is the two husbands aren't married to each other. Why should one husband be expected to carry the load for the other? In a perfect world both, or ideally all three, would have contributed equally and all had an equal share. That's not what happened at all, with one husband contributing a rather large share and the other contributing nothing towards the initial purchase. I found their arrangement to be quite fair. My wife and I had an agreement to not move anyone in to our shared home for this very reason. Neither of us wanted to have to carry the load for a meta.

If your argument was that the one husband might have felt "less than" for not being able to contribute fully and that may have done a number on his self esteem, I could probably agree. But that was nobody's fault but his.
 
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