Triad Equality

re's a huge piece of this dynamic that people are missing yet still judging on. It seems that trying to create an equal triad is placing a lot of strain on the relationship and it seems that forcing this relationship into that specific structure is causing a lot of pain for Violet and probably for the other members too. This is not the same as fighting for the rights of the third.

WELL DUH.

I think that TRUE equality in any relationship... not just triads, quads, V's etc, is impossible. Even Fairness is over rated. What it is that it seems to work best is Balance. Everyone having as much of their needs met as possible and A general happiness that comes with it.
 
WELL DUH.

I think that TRUE equality in any relationship... not just triads, quads, V's etc, is impossible. Even Fairness is over rated. What it is that it seems to work best is Balance. Everyone having as much of their needs met as possible and A general happiness that comes with it.

I'm not exactly sure what your problem is with me, but feel free to take up over PM. I suspect anything I say would be met with a similar tone. It's interesting that I and others have made this very point repeatedly in this thread and in others and now finally you say something like "WELL DUH" as if this is a point that doesn't even need to be said. It certainly seems that a lot of these threads wouldn't even be necessary if this was a "duh" point with people. ::shrug::


As for your other point, I agree entirely, as you would see from this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1024&page=3

Where just this morning I said this very thing:

I like the idea of that kind of natural geometry you speak of. People change and their needs change throughout a relationship..sometimes from day to day and sometimes over many years. The relationships that thrive (poly and mono) are the ones who's shape can shift and change with the needs of the people in it.

It reminds me of one of the major principles of balance in the Yoga that I practice. Basically, in my practice when we do balance poses, one thing that we must first accept is that true balance and equilibrium do not exist in our reality but only as a compass for us as we seek balance out. When in balance poses, it's not about attaining the balance, but in allowing our intelligent bodies to shift and adjust to the changing imbalances. If you stiffen up and try to hold the pose, you fall. If you shift and wobble as your balance shifts, you're more able to hold your pose.

That is one element I've seen in all successful relationships, regardless of their geometry.
 
WELL DUH.

I think that TRUE equality in any relationship... not just triads, quads, V's etc, is impossible. Even Fairness is over rated. What it is that it seems to work best is Balance. Everyone having as much of their needs met as possible and A general happiness that comes with it.

I totally agree. Thanks sunshine. I was a bit stuck and uncomfortable with the terms "equality" and "even." I think that balancing everyones needs is what we strive to do in order to all be happy.
 
I'm not exactly sure what your problem is with me, but feel free to take up over PM. I suspect anything I say would be met with a similar tone. It's interesting that I and others have made this very point repeatedly in this thread and in others and now finally you say something like "WELL DUH" as if this is a point that doesn't even need to be said. It certainly seems that a lot of these threads wouldn't even be necessary if this was a "duh" point with people. ::shrug::


As for your other point, I agree entirely, as you would see from this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1024&page=3

Where just this morning I said this very thing:

Funny, Because that basicly what I have been saying also. Even going so far to offer solutions to the meet the need for Equality/balance. And I Also said back on page 1, that what was sort after was balance.

Perhaps a Balance is what you striving for. Things should be balanced. That all involed should have balance. I don't think that Things like taking off wedding rings.. A rg is a sign of commitment. Sure its fair for you to be married... You and HMA made the Choice to make that Commitment. Should you decide to make a simmilar/equivelant commitment to Anne in the future then Perhaps you can wear another ring or item to signify that? Seems fair to me.


In the grand scheme of things Vi asked about the NEED/Requirement to take off her ring. Whether it was fair to her that HMA assumed she would /or had too. And about if it was unreasonable when seeking Equality within the triad.

Triad Equality

So, someone tell me if I'm waaaaaaay off base here. HMA and I had a conversation last night about a “truly equal” triad. And I'm having a really, really hard time getting my head around it all. I think I just need to rant for a minute to help get my head on straight.

The big point of contention was marriage. HMA and I have been engaged since roughly March of this year, and are planning our wedding for September. We had kicked around some hypothetical ideas for practicalities sake (ie, our third whether it be Anne or someone else and I getting married, etc.), but after a LOT of thought, I decided that based on personal values, and based on how much marriage means to me, that I'm not willing to give up being HMA's wife. It's too important to me .


Originally Posted by Ceoli
I like the idea of that kind of natural geometry you speak of. People change and their needs change throughout a relationship..sometimes from day to day and sometimes over many years. The relationships that thrive (poly and mono) are the ones who's shape can shift and change with the needs of the people in it.

This I agree with 100% . I wouldnt be in this type of relationship if We were not able to shift and change. So Amazingly. Something we actually agree on.

And I Only have one issue with you..Which I am happy to share right here. The fact that you seem to think that you are the be all and end all of the rules and regulations in regards to being a third . Until that post quoted above you seemed to have no understanding of the need to be flexible and sometimes even unequal to achieve happiness. As I have pointed out before. NOTHING is ever truly equal or fair. EVER. You simply learn to work with it to make it work for you. Balance.

I will also say that What RP had to say before was also the perspective I have of you from the posts I have read of yours on this forum. I dont know you In RL. But from what I have known of you that you have posted here it seemed pretty spot on. JMO. Weather you agree with it or not it seemed to be a fair assumption based on the perception you give in your posts.I truly hope that you find a relationship ( primary/triad/mono whatever) that works for you and that you are happy and all that jazz.
 
And I Only have one issue with you..Which I am happy to share right here. The fact that you seem to think that you are the be all and end all of the rules and regulations in regards to being a third . Until that post quoted above you seemed to have no understanding of the need to be flexible and sometimes even unequal to achieve happiness. As I have pointed out before. NOTHING is ever truly equal or fair. EVER. You simply learn to work with it to make it work for you. Balance.

::shrug:: If that's what you see then I doubt anything I say will be regarded as otherwise. I've never said that there must be equality or that things MUST be equal or fair. And I've never claimed to be an end-all be-all expert. I am, however, not shy about giving my perspective from that point of view and raising issues from my point of view. If that bothers you, feel free to disregard. But really, this contrarian crap is getting a bit old. Half the time you were lambasting into me, we were actually agreeing. But hey, clearly you have made your decision about everything I say. Fair enough.
 
I guess thats it. Thanx.
 
I just got here. Haven't been monitoring this thread as I've been short on time recently.

Man! Miss a little, miss a lot!

*picks up Alex's chair, throws it at Steve Wilkos*
 
For the love of all that is holy, what the hell is this?! I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

I NEVER told Violet to take her promise/engagement ring off. Were we to wed prior to a trong third entering our relationship, I would NOT ask her to remove her wedding ring.

There was a hypothetical discussion about what we would do IN A YEAR when our planned wedding date approaches if things with Anne have progressed. I stated that at that time, should it come, I would prefer a ring for all three of us. I have no idea where the rest of this is coming from.

There was a point in the discussion where I said that in MY OPINION, a long-term triad established either before or after a marriage would have a symbol of the triad. I said that it may or may not be an addition to or a replacement for any existing symbols. I thought I was pretty clear that this would depend on how everyone involved felt; i was asked my opinion on this hypothetical and I gave it.

As for the other examples my dear Vi gave - sweetie, what is going on, lol? A lot has happened since that talk, but all that aside - where did the concept of equality become equated with giving up "sweet little things" or forcing participation in such? Babies? What the...
 
Time to get that ol' Vulcan mind-meld thing working.

This written communication ain't all it's cracked up to be.
 
We talk, a lot. She told me this thread existed, but I didn't realize what it was or what had been said, lol. We're actually talking about it right now, lol.
 
Shenanigans! The ring thing is moot, IMO......the big ? is what the hell is Anne doing and is this the kind of poly arrangement that Vi and HMA signed up for? If it isn't right in all 3 parties heads, then it's all for naught. They're getting way ahead of themselves with the ring talk.
 
OK...I have a real problem!

After reading the whole story of HMA, Violet, Lana and Anne( and Mark).
OMG! what are you thinking???

It is a proven fact the the human brain hasn't fully even developed untill 25 years of age!! At 20 and 21 years of age, I am sorry, but you don't have the maturity and knowledge to even fathom all the in and outs of a monogamous relationship, never mind a multi faceted poly one! ( I am not saying Vi and Anne specifically, but that age group)

Our youngest daughter is 23, she is our most 'worldly' and independant child. If she came to us and said this was going on in her life I would say RUN, RUN HARD FAST........AND NOW!!!!

To be involved with in this type of relationship, with age differances, and past histories so troubled. So much, so fast and so young! Be carefull!, slow down and if you are going to continue, do it with lots of full honest communication.

It may be the Mom in me, but is also the caring!

Ceoli, you thought you needed to duck .....Hell...think I am now facing the firing squad!
 
It is a proven fact the the human brain hasn't fully even developed untill 25 years of age!! At 20 and 21 years of age, I am sorry, but you don't have the maturity and knowledge to even fathom all the in and outs of a monogamous relationship, never mind a multi faceted poly one! ( I am not saying Vi and Anne specifically, but that age group)

No needs to duck, sea. lol I just have to point out that this is one of my pet peeves. I did a lot of study on exactly what parts of the brain aren't fully developed - because it was something that my older partners often pulled on me when I would say or do something they deemed immature or unwise. Sometimes, they were right - other times, not so much.

I can see where one might assume - based on the recent research and also on experience with many "older adolescents" (which is still what we're considered until 25, from a neural standpoint) - that we aren't able to grasp the "in and out of a monogamous relationship". It's less about the so-called hard science, IMO, and more about said adolescent's personal experiences, the way it's affected them, combined with some science. Like we don't all know someone in their 30's or 40's who have less ability to be rational and conduct themselves in a way that's DECIDEDLY not conducive to a relationship (poly or otherwise), let alone in some cases function in society. I know 40-year-olds who would be better off associating themselves with my best friend's 13 year old sister than their own age group.

The research has concluded that in the majority of people aged 10-25, that it's the prefrontal cortex (which controls the "executive functions" of higher reasoning; ie, impulse control), and the neurotransmitters that manage dopamine (the chemical that controls concentration, advanced problem-solving, etc). It explains why people "our age" are so impulsive, and have a tendency to be emotionally driven. I can stand up and admit that I have moments where I have said - out loud - "Aww, crap. That was a rebellious teenage moment, wasn't it?" to HMA. He always laughs at me. Most people my age wouldn't be so capable. lol At least I can recognize it, move past it, and get on with life.

Development and capabilities of the adolescent brain are affected greatly by environmental and situational factors as well. Alcohol does HORRIBLE things to brain development before 25 (yet our drinking age is still 21. So weird.), and severely inhibits the prefrontal cortex's ability to handle rational thought and impulse control, forcing the individual to rely heavily on the "emotional" sectors of the brain to influence decisions. It also has a ton to do with what portions of the brain are used most often, etc.

The research also states that while the brain isn't done FULLY maturing, with all connections made - the biological age in which all "grey matter" is up to par and functional is 20-21. It's a matter of how you exercise it, as I stated above. IF you're still stuck in your "emotional area", allowing that to govern you - it will take time for the brain to develop those connections fully. If you actively work to think rationally, correct yourself when you're not, etc - your brain is functioning at the "adult level" of maturity by the age of 20-21. Most people in this age group obviously don't. lol

Anyway, I ranted off enough. Just keep in mind that there are a LOT of factors that go into the way a person thinks, handles relationships, and conducts themselves that ISN'T related to an under-developed brain. ;)

Anne and I are perfectly capable of handling ourselves. Don't make a judgment call like that - especially not about me - without knowing what made me who I am. I've packed a lot of life into 20 years, done a lot of damage, been married and divorced already, etc. Anne - well, not so much. But she's ahead of her time too.

Still, appreciate the input!
 
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Violet...I never meant to say you were to ' young ' to understand. Yes, many many outside influences make us who we are, how we think...do ....blah blah blah...
Just the little that HMA said about past experiences let the imagination run...and my heart breaks for anyone that has to do with crap than NO-ONE should ever have to face.
I have read many of your posts, and you of all people on here are the one I can relate to the most, I have felt so much like you have expressed. I know how much hurt comes with that, and I wouldn't want anyone to feel this.

I have never met you...and all I would like to do is hug you and say, damn,,,but I understand!
 
Violet...I never meant to say you were to ' young ' to understand. Yes, many many outside influences make us who we are, how we think...do ....blah blah blah...
Just the little that HMA said about past experiences let the imagination run...and my heart breaks for anyone that has to do with crap than NO-ONE should ever have to face.
I have read many of your posts, and you of all people on here are the one I can relate to the most, I have felt so much like you have expressed. I know how much hurt comes with that, and I wouldn't want anyone to feel this.

I have never met you...and all I would like to do is hug you and say, damn,,,but I understand!

I didn't mean to go off like that. That whole "Brain study" is a really touchy subject for me, and I was REALLY on edge when I wrote that last night. It's been a rough couple of days. Weeks, really. I'm really sorry - hope I didn't offend you.

And hey, if we understand one another - if you ever need someone to talk to, PM away!
 
For the love of all that is holy, what the hell is this?! I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

I NEVER told Violet to take her promise/engagement ring off. Were we to wed prior to a trong third entering our relationship, I would NOT ask her to remove her wedding ring.

There was a hypothetical discussion about what we would do IN A YEAR when our planned wedding date approaches if things with Anne have progressed. I stated that at that time, should it come, I would prefer a ring for all three of us. I have no idea where the rest of this is coming from.

There was a point in the discussion where I said that in MY OPINION, a long-term triad established either before or after a marriage would have a symbol of the triad. I said that it may or may not be an addition to or a replacement for any existing symbols. I thought I was pretty clear that this would depend on how everyone involved felt; i was asked my opinion on this hypothetical and I gave it.

As for the other examples my dear Vi gave - sweetie, what is going on, lol? A lot has happened since that talk, but all that aside - where did the concept of equality become equated with giving up "sweet little things" or forcing participation in such? Babies? What the...

If I may-I think what happened is that a potentially non-eventful conversation may have been had at a time when V just wasn't emotionally "on top of her game" and fears and concerns ensued.

I had a weekend like that this weekend. Almost COMPLETELY driven by hormones (sorry I know we women!). Fortunately I was able to start the weekend with "wow Maca I'm really feeling moody and emotional and need some TLC" and he was on the ball realizing that the weekend was likely to revolve around reassuring me.

It's Monday and I feel like my moodiness actually drove us to even closer moments and understandings.

No harm-now you two can clarify meaning and reach a better understanding of needs/desires/wants etc!
 
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