Veto Arrangements - Merged Threads, General Discussion

Vetoes suck. That is why I have a personal rule to never get involved with someone who has a veto agreement with his SO. Whenever I meet or am approached by a partnered poly person, I ask lots of questions about this aspect of their existing relationship(s). My boundary is that no metamours will be allowed to make any decisions about how or if I conduct my relationships. They can have all the rules they want between them, and it's okay if some of them affect me (like in how much time we can spend together, how often, or something like that), but if anything that does affect me clashes with my own personal boundaries, I walk away and do not get involved. I don't need the drama or heartache. This is why I am more cautious about married guys. And why I think singles/solos need to establish a set of boundaries for themselves and not automatically kowtow to a couples' boundaries without discussion and negotiation.
 
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Wow, I think we should "start fresh", meaning you can date other people as long as they're not the person you want to date, even though I have no personal problem with her? That just seems really emotionally immature and un-compassionate of her. And wimpy of him, since as you said he could have taken more of a stand about it.

If she's got these major control issues, and he's willing to let her run the show in regards to his outside relationships, you're netter off with it being over. Rather than feeling victimized by their messed up decision-making process, just remember that you in fact were the one that broke up with him. Try to think of that in an empowering sense -- you *chose* to walk away. Now it might have been nice to get it back, but in the end it was still your choice to leave in the first place. Your mileage may vary, but I feel like that could give you more of a sense of control over the situation.

Do your best to move on, and don't enter situations with a veto power in place next time. You're going to be ok.
 
Yes, I do think that 25 years together, financial support, marriage, all of it makes for a very different situation than yours.


WH. I agree with you. History, Tenure, Finances, Owning property, Children etc would tend to make the scales tilt to the Primary Relationship. I don't know that full equality would ever be possible based on those circumstances. But what CAN be equal is consideration and effort. Both partners given equal consideration for their needs. Both partners assured that equal effort will be put into making the relationship work.


In part, I worry about him, too. He's very, very emotionally invested, although he himself told me from the start that he can't offer me any real future and I MUST keep myself open to someone who can and he knows it will end someday.

That's great 6 months in. I've heard that same line of reasoning from my boyfriend until the last several months. Now, 2 years into this, it's a different story.

My bf also said how I should keep myself open to someone who can offer me a full-time relationship. My arguement in reply was always that my time is so limited, single parent, demanding career, this was probably all that I could manage and that I didn't want anyone else, just him.

Now, his tune has changed.

It hurts him so much to think of me finding another love. Rather than, "I'd be sad to lose you but happy for you that you found someone to build a real future with", the context has turned to "You wouldn't cheat on me, would you?" and "I'd be devestated if you left me. Please stay in my world with me." The thoughts of me moving on makes him sad, depressed, his mood gets quite sullen.

And that's ok! I am Mono. I choose to be with one person. I am happy with that. :D He recognizes that my being Mono would mean moving away from him if I were to find another. And I love the fact that he's finally being REAL to me about his feelings. Honesty is so important! And it's brought us that much closer.

My point is, it's inevitable that in time, feelings and motivations will change. And in the spirit of poly, all parties must be willing to work through those changes and what they mean to each relationship.

If one is to truely embrace Poly (as I read on here over and over again), then one must be willing to adapt to those changes. If progression is limited, then why bother in the first place? It's hypocritcal. That form constitutes an Open Relationship rather than a polyamorous one. There's another forum for that. :D:D:D
 
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Wow, I think we should "start fresh", meaning you can date other people as long as they're not the person you want to date, even though I have no personal problem with her? That just seems really emotionally immature and un-compassionate of her. And wimpy of him, since as you said he could have taken more of a stand about it.

If she's got these major control issues, and he's willing to let her run the show in regards to his outside relationships, you're netter off with it being over. Rather than feeling victimized by their messed up decision-making process, just remember that you in fact were the one that broke up with him. Try to think of that in an empowering sense -- you *chose* to walk away. Now it might have been nice to get it back, but in the end it was still your choice to leave in the first place. Your mileage may vary, but I feel like that could give you more of a sense of control over the situation.

Do your best to move on, and don't enter situations with a veto power in place next time. You're going to be ok.

Thanks. Yeah, one of my friends kind of said the same thing. It's messed up that he's allowed to date, but not women he actually likes. Lovely.

And yes, there are things about the situation which reduce the sting.

1) He did want me back. On just a basic, instinctual level, he's attracted to me and would've been glad to see me.

2) I never 'capitulated' to being of secondary importance to her. When I came back, my new mindset was that she and I should be friends and get to know each other more in order to keep things peaceful and reduce insecurity and jealousy. I did not come back with the stance that "Okay, she matters more, and you can subordinate me to her." And I never did convey that that would be okay.

3) I know that she is a human being and that she may not have meant to be unfair or un-compassionate or whatever, but that maybe she is looking out for # 1 (which only makes sense). There aren't that many people -- even good people -- who don't put their own needs above others. At the same time, I still feel like I'm the more principled person here because, as the poly person she claims herself to be, she's taking the easy way out by saying 'no' to him dating me, and just being unnecessarily restrictive. If she disapproves of me as a person for him to date (and as I said, I'm the epitome of clean cut, even a colleague of hers who she's been friendly with in the past), I don't know who she can approve of...
 
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3) I know that she is a human being and that she may not have meant to be unfair or un-compassionate or whatever, but that maybe she is looking out for # 1 (which only makes sense). There aren't that many people -- even good people -- who don't put their own needs above others. At the same time, I still feel like I'm the more principled person here because, as the poly person she claims herself to be, she's taking the easy way out by

There are other ways to look out for #1 without it being at the expense of others. There is compromise, communication. You said it best in an earlier post, "I'm struggling with this and will need alot of reassurance...."

I look out for #1 too. But I could never live with myself knowing that it hurt someone else.

Annabelmore is right. It was emotionally immature and uncompassionate of his girlfriend to do that.

And it was cruel and cowardly of him to let it happen.

You can and will do better next time. :D
 
Vetoes suck. That is why I have a personal rule to never get involved with someone who has a veto agreement with his SO. Whenever I meet or am approached by a partnered poly person, I ask lots of questions about this aspect of their existing relationship(s). My boundary is that no metamours will be allowed to make any decisions about how or if I conduct my relationships. They can have all the rules they want between them, and it's okay if some of them affect me (like in how much time we can spend together, how often, or something like that), but if anything that does affect me clashes with my own personal boundaries, I walk away and do not get involved. I don't need the drama or heartache. This is why I am more cautious about married guys. And why I think singles/solos need to establish a set of boundaries for themselves and not automatically kowtow to a couples' boundaries without discussion and negotiation.

None of us asked enough questions or even knew what we were doing. That's the danger of everyone being new to poly and just sort of "winging it."

At the same time, since *I* was willing to negotiate / create a peaceful situation even after the confusion, I think she could have been more open-minded too.

Thanks for your response!
 
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Let's see how this works:

So let's say my boyfriend and I have decided to try an open relationship. We're brand new to this, and when my boyfriend finds someone to date I struggle with jealousy. I'm willing to work on it, though, for myself and him and because I know it's not fair to this other person to just stop this experiment in its tracks. But ultimately the other relationship ends. She doesn't care for the situation as it stands now, and I am relieved because things were strained between me and boyfriend. Maybe after more time, more discussion, we can try again, because this is something I'd like to make work.

Several months pass. Maybe we're taking the time to discuss more and strengthen our own connection, maybe not. He doesn't date anyone else that I know of. Then suddenly he tells me that he got back in touch with the person he dated months ago. My stomach clenches. He didn't talk to me about this first, and now I have to decide how I feel about this. I take some time, a week, to really think about it and discuss the pros and cons with him, rather than just giving a gut reaction and shutting down lines of communication. Ultimately I decide I'm just not comfortable with what I feel is a step back towards a place I don't want to return to, dealing with that tension, and I ask him to please not re-start a relationship with this other person.

Now, perhaps this was not the girlfriend's thought process, but it's one possibility as it reflects the information given in mercury's posts. So, why is she the bad guy here? No, maybe she didn't have the perfect response of communication and willingness to work on her own issues within her relationship, but for a brand-new non-monogamous person, I think she did okay. I don't see her, from what we've been told, as being particularly cruel or immature. He boyfriend TOLD you he had thought about leaving her, you've said yourself you're very similar to her- of COURSE she sees you as a threat, with good reason! That's not HER fault, nor is it your fault. From what I can see it's the boyfriend who is not being the responsible one and is creating the drama in this situation. If he was going to abide by her wishes regarding who he dates, then he should have checked in with her before ever trying to reconnect with you. HE'S the one who created this situation, not her. I understand you're hurt and upset, and you have every right to be, but don't hold him up as this loyal, caring guy. If he REALLY cared HE'D be the one pushing for better communication among all of you, and making sure his relationship with his girlfriend is stable before adding someone else to the mix. You don't want to make him the bad guy because you care about him, and I get that, but besides wanting to still try an open relationship when she's not ready for it yet, I don't see how she did anything significantly out of line.

ETA: One more thing I thought of- this is one area where "open relationship" and "poly" are NOT the same! If he had feelings for you, that could have interfered with whatever agreement they had regarding what an "open relationship" meant. For many newbies, it's okay to casually date, but they're not ready to emotionally share their partner. Still shitty for you, but it doesn't make her the villain. The two of them need more communication and more understanding of their own boundaries before they date other people as well.
 
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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Let's see how this works:

So let's say my boyfriend and I have decided to try an open relationship. We're brand new to this, and when my boyfriend finds someone to date I struggle with jealousy. I'm willing to work on it, though, for myself and him and because I know it's not fair to this other person to just stop this experiment in its tracks. But ultimately the other relationship ends. She doesn't care for the situation as it stands now, and I am relieved because things were strained between me and boyfriend. Maybe after more time, more discussion, we can try again, because this is something I'd like to make work.

Several months pass. Maybe we're taking the time to discuss more and strengthen our own connection, maybe not. He doesn't date anyone else that I know of. Then suddenly he tells me that he got back in touch with the person he dated months ago. My stomach clenches. He didn't talk to me about this first, and now I have to decide how I feel about this. I take some time, a week, to really think about it and discuss the pros and cons with him, rather than just giving a gut reaction and shutting down lines of communication. Ultimately I decide I'm just not comfortable with what I feel is a step back towards a place I don't want to return to, dealing with that tension, and I ask him to please not re-start a relationship with this other person.

Minor correction: It was I who got back in touch with him, but...he was indeed happily receptive.

Anyway, actually, I think what you wrote above was very close to her thought process. Still doesn't make it right, though. What doesn't make sense is that they are still in an open relationship in which he is allowed to date women. I am a woman. They are even still in a place of being open to having meaningful relationships with other people. That was one of the first things I asked him. I said, "Is it that, now that you guys know how it feels, you want to only date others casually and not develop meaningful relationships anymore?" He said, "No, we're still willing to have meaningful relationships with others."

They're only in a "different place" in the sense that they've had the experience of me and know it can cause some insecurity. That's only normal, though. Structure-wise, they're in the exact same place as they were when I had my first go 'round with him.

Again, I am still a woman who's available to him to date, one who want(ed) to be friendly with her and develop a relationship with her as well.

Now, perhaps this was not the girlfriend's thought process, but it's one possibility as it reflects the information given in mercury's posts. So, why is she the bad guy here? No, maybe she didn't have the perfect response of communication and willingness to work on her own issues within her relationship, but for a brand-new non-monogamous person, I think she did okay. I don't see her, from what we've been told, as being particularly cruel or immature. He boyfriend TOLD you he had thought about leaving her, you've said yourself you're very similar to her- of COURSE she sees you as a threat, with good reason! That's not HER fault, nor is it your fault. From what I can see it's the boyfriend who is not being the responsible one and is creating the drama in this situation.

Well, I don't really go around calling people "bad guys," but for all intents and purposes, I still believe that she is being immature. I'm no less brand-new to polyamory than she is. (In fact, I'm MORE new to polyamory than she is, because while she's been thinking about it for at least few years that I know of (and maybe for longer that I don't know of), I've only ever even thought of polyamory since I met him. It is just as hard for me to be with a guy that has another woman as it is for her to be with him while he has another woman, yet I'm willing to face the challenges of insecure and jealous feelings.

And there's no "well, it's harder for her because she has a bond with him and it's harder for her to let go of that, while you are only gaining something; you don't have to feel the sense of "losing" something..."

If anything, the secondary person has even MORE reason to feel insecure because she's "up against" (for lack of a better phrase) an established bond that she'll never be able to compete with. Or it would be a long time, anyway.

If he was going to abide by her wishes regarding who he dates, then he should have checked in with her before ever trying to reconnect with you. HE'S the one who created this situation, not her. I understand you're hurt and upset, and you have every right to be, but don't hold him up as this loyal, caring guy. If he REALLY cared HE'D be the one pushing for better communication among all of you, and making sure his relationship with his girlfriend is stable before adding someone else to the mix. You don't want to make him the bad guy because you care about him, and I get that, but besides wanting to still try an open relationship when she's not ready for it yet, I don't see how she did anything significantly out of line.

Well, as I said, he didn't contact me. I contacted him, and he responded well to me, and then talked to her about it. We didn't go on a date or anything. We'd just traded a few short emails and then talked on the phone. He didn't do anything "on the sly" and then proceed to check with her.

And I don't vilify her while keeping him the good guy. I've mentioned in past posts that to the extent I blame them at all (which is considerable but not 100%), it's both of them, though her a little more so than him. And the reason I blame her a bit more than him is that I can't see myself doing what she did, but I do see myself *potentially* doing what he did (abiding by the wishes of a 2 year partner vs. a 7-weeks partner). They are in different positions in this whole thing. In her position, I don't think I would have done what she did. In his position, I might have. That's where I have a slightly softer stance on him. Check my past post about him.

ETA: One more thing I thought of- this is one area where "open relationship" and "poly" are NOT the same! If he had feelings for you, that could have interfered with whatever agreement they had regarding what an "open relationship" meant. For many newbies, it's okay to casually date, but they're not ready to emotionally share their partner. Still shitty for you, but it doesn't make her the villain. The two of them need more communication and more understanding of their own boundaries before they date other people as well.

Actually, (and I know you have no way of knowing this), but they were claiming polyamory (not just "open") from the start. Both of them. It was their intent to be allowed to love other people besides each other. They communicated about that.

"She just didn't know how it was going to feel." (that's what he said to me in explanation of the backtrack)
 
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He boyfriend TOLD you he had thought about leaving her, you've said yourself you're very similar to her- of COURSE she sees you as a threat, with good reason! That's not HER fault, nor is it your fault. From what I can see it's the boyfriend who is not being the responsible one and is creating the drama in this situation. If he was going to abide by her wishes regarding who he dates, then he should have checked in with her before ever trying to reconnect with you. HE'S the one who created this situation, not her.

Oh, and let me clarify that he didn't quite say it exactly as I wrote it. What I wrote was: "I may break away from her, I don't know."

(It's been months; I didn't necessarily have the exact wording off the top of my head when I wrote that other post)

But I do have a good memory when I think about it. What he actually said was this: (it's not all that much better, but I think it is a little better): "It's understood between me and her that we might meet people we like a lot and end up branching off into a traditional relationship with that person."

So he said it in a way that was like...she could just as easily stray from me with someone she dates and really likes.

And as far as she and I being a lot a like, to me, that doesn't make it any more reasonable for her to say "Don't date her." I mean, come on. We're alike, but we're not replicas. And even if we are more alike than she'd be considered "alike" with most women off the street, why is that such a big deal? Doesn't it just mean that she and I could be better friends because of it? Doesn't it also mean that I have to deal with knowing that she's very much competition for me too because she has a lot of my same positive traits?

The point is...you can't make all these little concessions for controlling. Like, it's okay for her to control your particular situation because you're so much like her. In other words, he can't date women who have any of her same qualities because only she's allowed to have those qualities for him to appreciate. In other words, from her POV, "Date other women who are great, but great in ways that are different ways than I am great so that I don't feel threatened."

It's hard enough to find people who fit all these criteria 1) open to being polyamorous, 2) mutual attraction on the part of the girl and him, 3) willing to be friends with his girlfriend (her) and cultivate a congenial, mutually supportive situation.

On top of that, she wants to stipulate that the other woman can't be too much like her?

She's just as much like me as I am like her, and I don't have a problem with it. I don't feel as if only I'm allowed to be down to earth and into plays /theater because if he gets that from someone else too, well that's MY territory...

Immature.

Now, mind you, this wouldn't be immature if you're a mono person. But if you're self-proclaimed polyamorous (doesn't matter that you're "new"; as I said, I'm new too and even newer), putting all these restrictions on it is silly.

You don't grow by avoidance....
 
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I'm thinking maybe because you used to be together and it ended, she feels like it didn't work out anyway, so why waste time and energy and get hurt trying the same thing again hoping for different results?
It could be the way she feels about it, I mean.

In any case, I think it's important for metamours to get along, if there are problems between the two of you it wouldn't work. She'd have to be fine with you and she can't help it if she isn't.

Time will tell if she will feel the same way about everyone he shows interest to or not. If so, then she probably should work on her issues or reconsider poly. If not, though, well it's good that she was honest about knowing it wouldn't work for her if he tried to be with you again, as much as it sucks for you.
 
And as far as she and I being a lot a like, to me, that doesn't make it any more reasonable for her to say "Don't date her." The point is...you can't make all these little concessions for controlling. On top of that, she wants to stipulate that the other woman can't be too much like her?

She's just as much like me as I am like her, and I don't have a problem with it.

Immature.

Nothing about that is truely Poly. They should stick with the Open Relationship label.

From what I read, they weren't seeking a unicorn for a triad, they were open to finding someone they each liked and connected with. So who cares if she doesn't like his choice? If she was secure in the relationship, that shouldn't affect her. She isn't spending time with this woman, her partner is.

I agree that it would be nice and wonderful if metamours truely liked each other, but that won't always be the case. The mature answer is that as long as the metamours are both mutually respectful of the other and trust in their partner to do what's best for their relationship, then step back and let your partner enjoy.

Isn't that the basis of poly?

This whole "You can only date her if I deem her to be of less value/appeal than me" is crazy. And her partner should thank her for demanding he trade down rather than enjoying someone he's really interested in? Wow.

Now there's a concept for evolved relationship thinking for you!
 
Basically, the upshot was that they spent a week talking it over, and even after all the deliberating, her stance was this: she did want them to stay in an open relationship, but she preferred that he not date me in particular. She said "let's start fresh." So his final words to me were (paraphrasing): "I can't date you. We're still in a poly situation but Jeni has to be comfortable with the person I date."

I understand how hurt you can be at Derek and Jeni's choice but I guess I don't consider this veto. It reads to me like it was a mutually agreed upon decision between the two made after a week of deliberation. How is her stating her preferences (and/or boundaries) a veto (which I understand to be making a demand)? Derek wants Jeni to be comfortable with the people he dates and apparently based on the previous history between you three she felt uncomfortable with you. We are getting your side here which I understand may feel very unfair, not right, but we don't know Jeni's side. How Derek handled NRE, etc... You could be a lovely person and not be toxic or drama or whatever else you consider ok reasons for veto. Maybe Derek's behavior while in a relationship with you was toxic, damaging, or stressful to Jeni and Derek's relationship in ways you don't know. It sounds like your info regarding their relationship comes from Derek and not Jeni so the lack of complete info wouldn't surprise me.

We know he did say he might end up leaving her if he continued in a relationship with you. And you originally left because you couldn't handle sharing with his GF. It sounds great that you've changed and are willing to work on the relationship with the both of them. If that is indeed the case I wonder why you chose to reach out just to Derek alone and and not reach out to both of them in the spirit of teamwork and inclusion.

Maybe she has her own reasons why she is unable to process you specifically in Derek's or her life due to past experiences with Derek. Especially if she believes that you really would prefer not to share (so much so that you left after 7 weeks). If in only 7 weeks my BF or DH was contemplating leaving me for another and my relationship turned upside down (this is unclear to me) I would be a bit gun shy at trying that same configuration again. I would also be a bit jaded or skeptical at any new huge philosophy shift that seemed to be made exclusively in order to be in a relationship with my partner.

I don't think there is anything wrong or immature in Jeni knowing what she can or cannot emotionally handle for herself and her stating as much to her BF. It is her responsibility as a loving partner to communicate what her capabilities are and what her truth is. She may not be in a place in her life where she can deconstruct and recreate a dynamic that has so much baggage for her. Perhaps trying to do so would take up too much processing and be detrimental to her mental health and ability to function in her relationship or productively in her own life. It is Derek's responsibility to take what she says into consideration and make his own choice- which he did. Saying, "you can do this why can't she," sounds a bit lacking in empathy for Jeni as her own person with her own faults and limitations. It sucks that her needs currently mean not being able to work on a shared relationship with you but that is where she is mentally at right now. It is neither right or wrong. Just like it was neither right or wrong for you to have originally left after 7 weeks for your own mental health.

Some years ago I was in a place where I could not process a specific outside relationship my husband had. In my case it was due to lack of trust and many broken boundaries. It would have taken too much for me to rebuild that trust. Perhaps my situation is more understandable but regardless of cause I believe that sometimes a person cannot emotionally put in the work that it would take to heal a previously broken relationship dynamic (especially if they believed it damaged or almost cost them their relationship). It is their choice not to have to do so. Derek might have agreed to Jeni's request because he also believes that she is unable to emotionally do so now AND he chooses to prioritize their relationship for whatever reason.

For what it is worth... if I were Jeni, things that might change my mind/perspective would be if you approached me independently with what I believed was a genuine interest in healing and recreating OUR metamour relationship (even if it just be platonic). To see if we are compatible as friends or just respectful people before we get emotionally entangled with our shared lover where it previously fell apart. Of course this is not necessary nor to be expected as standard but it would show me good faith and intention on your part to not want to damage my existing relationship. In time I could slowly begin to trust you and welcome you into my life and hear directly from you how your views and feelings have changed and share mine as well. Of course Jeni could be very different than me.

Best wishes and future happiness,

Katrpillar
 
mercury,

How and why did you get involved in this in the first place? What was your motivation?

How often did you see each other before the tension and problems and split?

Does the wife currently have another partner or partners?
 
I'm thinking maybe because you used to be together and it ended, she feels like it didn't work out anyway, so why waste time and energy and get hurt trying the same thing again hoping for different results?
It could be the way she feels about it, I mean.

In any case, I think it's important for metamours to get along, if there are problems between the two of you it wouldn't work. She'd have to be fine with you and she can't help it if she isn't.

Time will tell if she will feel the same way about everyone he shows interest to or not. If so, then she probably should work on her issues or reconsider poly. If not, though, well it's good that she was honest about knowing it wouldn't work for her if he tried to be with you again, as much as it sucks for you.

But the thing is, it didn't "not work out" because of lack of attraction between him and me, or any "values clashing" between him and me, or he and I "not getting along." There was nothing about me and him that clashed.

The reason that it didn't work out was this:

We (she and I) were both feeling a degree of jealousy.

When I came back, I came back with what I thought to be a likely remedy to that -- for she and I to hang out and be friends. And I know she was down with that the first time around, and according to their OkCupid profiles, they're still looking for mates who "want to be part of our open relationship," meaning...she's down to hang out with the people he dates. So she does want to hang out with whoever becomes his girlfriend, just not me in particular.

I wouldn't try to get back together with a just general "let's try again" if I didn't have what I thought to be some sort of remedy for the previous ill. My remedy was...let's be friends instead of rivals.

Let me share with you the exact email I wrote to her when we were all "in talks":

(after a paragraph or two of clearing the air about last time...)

I think it would be really great to get to know you and develop more of a friendship with you. We are probably very different in a lot of ways, but I think we have a lot of common ground as well. I even think it would be fun to eventually hang out with you and ______ together.

I’ve missed him a lot. He’s a terrific guy, and I definitely want him in my life. I don’t presume to know what you are thinking about it all, but I feel compelled to say that there should be no concern that I’m going to take him away from you. I don’t want to, nor will I. He is very devoted to you, cares about you a lot, and is extremely close to you, and I have no desire to change that. I am glad for you and for him that you have each other.

Anyway, I’ve said the main things I want to say. But I am still open to talking on the phone or meeting up for coffee if you want to.
 
I read the "veto" threads on this forum, and most of them say things like "well, if the person is toxic, or somehow going to cause trouble, or that person is clearly crazy, it makes sense to veto."
No, no "all" the threads here don't say that, which thread did you get this from?

I have not read this entire thread, but I am going to wiegh in anyway. Vetos are not generally accepted as a good way of doing business in poly. Everyone is an individual and everyone makes their own choices from that perspective. Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.
 
I understand how hurt you can be at Derek and Jeni's choice but I guess I don't consider this veto. It reads to me like it was a mutually agreed upon decision between the two made after a week of deliberation. How is her stating her preferences (and/or boundaries) a veto (which I understand to be making a demand)? Derek wants Jeni to be comfortable with the people he dates and apparently based on the previous history between you three she felt uncomfortable with you. We are getting your side here which I understand may feel very unfair, not right, but we don't know Jeni's side. How Derek handled NRE, etc... You could be a lovely person and not be toxic or drama or whatever else you consider ok reasons for veto. Maybe Derek's behavior while in a relationship with you was toxic, damaging, or stressful to Jeni and Derek's relationship in ways you don't know. It sounds like your info regarding their relationship comes from Derek and not Jeni so the lack of complete info wouldn't surprise me.

I think it is a veto. They may have agreed on it, ultimately, but his initial reaction to my getting in touch with him was "let's see each other again."

But I agree with you that I don't necessarily have all the information. Who KNOWS how he was acting with her during my time with him. Hell, it's possible he was making her feel like shit about it. I will definitely grant you that WHO KNOWS what kind of loving yet still possibly passive-aggressive dynamic they have with each other. I know he did say this to me after our third date: "I was telling _____ (her) how surprised i was that you guys weren't friends because you're so much alike." I mean, not that that's a bad thing to day, especially if it's true, but it certainly is going to plant a seed of insecurity in her if he's telling her, "You know, ____ (me) has ALL the same things you have." It's going to make her feel that much more replaceable. I think if I were in his shoes, I might have been downplaying how great the new person is...just a little.

It's totally true that there could be things going on in their relationship that I don't know about. For all I know, they agreed to date other people but not have sex until after two months, and he may have broken that. (I do kinda doubt that, but what I'm saying is...it's possible they had some rule that he broke). Anything's possible.

We know he did say he might end up leaving her if he continued in a relationship with you. And you originally left because you couldn't handle sharing with his GF. It sounds great that you've changed and are willing to work on the relationship with the both of them. If that is indeed the case I wonder why you chose to reach out just to Derek alone and and not reach out to both of them in the spirit of teamwork and inclusion.

I reached out to both of them. See my post above. I even asked if she wanted to have coffee to talk about it all. Even before I wrote that email, though, I was telling him to tell her that I so wanted to be friends with her and get to know her more.

Maybe she has her own reasons why she is unable to process you specifically in Derek's or her life due to past experiences with Derek. Especially if she believes that you really would prefer not to share (so much so that you left after 7 weeks). If in only 7 weeks my BF or DH was contemplating leaving me for another and my relationship turned upside down (this is unclear to me) I would be a bit gun shy at trying that same configuration again. I would also be a bit jaded or skeptical at any new huge philosophy shift that seemed to be made exclusively in order to be in a relationship with my partner.

I wrote her an email which I explained why I left the first time. It said, "I was new to it all and didn't know if I wanted it. But I've since done a lot of soul-searching, reading about polyamory, just contemplating, and I have a new outlook. I really want to be a part of both of you know." (see the above for how I ended it). As a person new to poly herself and feeling insecure as she did, surely she had to know that I felt that way too but I wanted for all of us to try it again and be loving, peaceful, and supportive of each other. When someone goes to you and says "I want to make this work for ALL of us," there's not a hell of a lot of excuse to just say "sorry, no thanks. Your good intentions and desire to be close to me just aren't good enough. I'd rather he date a different person."

As far as him contemplating leaving her, I don't even know if he said that to her. Now I'm not saying it's right for him to think that in the first place. But what I'm saying is we can't factor it into HER thinking and decision making when it's highly unlikely that he said to her, "Well, you know what, I'm getting really happy with ____ (me), I'm thinking of leaving her."

He didn't say it, at any rate, in a very cruel context. It may sound that way in blunt text on the Internet. He said it in a way that was just being truthful about where they stood, that they were opening up their relationship, both knowing that at risk is the possibility of one or the other or both of them being happy enough with someone else to stray.

It really wasn't even a proclamation directed at how happy I was making him. It was more a generalized, objective one, wherein he was saying some woman in the future at some point might be compelling enough to make him depart. And the same for her with guys.

I don't think there is anything wrong or immature in Jeni knowing what she can or cannot emotionally handle for herself and her stating as much to her BF. It is her responsibility as a loving partner to communicate what her capabilities are and what her truth is. She may not be in a place in her life where she can deconstruct and recreate a dynamic that has so much baggage for her. Perhaps trying to do so would take up too much processing and be detrimental to her mental health and ability to function in her relationship or productively in her own life. It is Derek's responsibility to take what she says into consideration and make his own choice- which he did. Saying, "you can do this why can't she," sounds a bit lacking in empathy for Jeni as her own person with her own faults and limitations. It sucks that her needs currently mean not being able to work on a shared relationship with you but that is where she is mentally at right now. It is neither right or wrong. Just like it was neither right or wrong for you to have originally left after 7 weeks for your own mental health.

I do agree with you there. I agree with you, even, that it's not necessarily fair of me to pull the "I can, so why can't she" card. I do understand that different people have different emotional capabilities at different times in their lives, and that she need not necessarily be condemned for being unready for something that I feel quite ready for. To that extent, I agree with you. I'm doing a bit of free-venting here because it's a message board. But rest assured, I know all that (above) about different emotional capabilities.

When I say she is "immature," from my perspective, she is. I know it's not a fair judgment and may be harsh on her. But it is my assessment of her. Immature isn't always a bad thing. "Immature" is relative, anyway. By my standards, she is. Immature for poly, that is. Not immature in general. But yes, immature for poly.

Some years ago I was in a place where I could not process a specific outside relationship my husband had. In my case it was due to lack of trust and many broken boundaries. It would have taken too much for me to rebuild that trust. Perhaps my situation is more understandable but regardless of cause I believe that sometimes a person cannot emotionally put in the work that it would take to heal a previously broken relationship dynamic (especially if they believed it damaged or almost cost them their relationship). It is their choice not to have to do so. Derek might have agreed to Jeni's request because he also believes that she is unable to emotionally do so now AND he chooses to prioritize their relationship for whatever reason.

Yep, I get all that. And like I said above, for all I know, some boundary was broken. I doubt they told me everything.

For what it is worth... if I were Jeni, things that might change my mind/perspective would be if you approached me independently with what I believed was a genuine interest in healing and recreating OUR metamour relationship (even if it just be platonic). To see if we are compatible as friends or just respectful people before we get emotionally entangled with our shared lover where it previously fell apart. Of course this is not necessary nor to be expected as standard but it would show me good faith and intention on your part to not want to damage my existing relationship. In time I could slowly begin to trust you and welcome you into my life and hear directly from you how your views and feelings have changed and share mine as well. Of course Jeni could be very different than me.

Did that. Did it and then some. There was even a time after the email I wrote above in which I called her to talk. No answer, no return call.
 
No, no "all" the threads here don't say that, which thread did you get this from?

I have not read this entire thread, but I am going to wiegh in anyway. Vetos are not generally accepted as a good way of doing business in poly. Everyone is an individual and everyone makes their own choices from that perspective. Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.

Well, look at my wording. It says "most." And I'm aware that some people have explained their vetoes differently from "toxic" "crazy person" "trouble maker" -- that's why I said "most." Because from the reading I did, most of the responses did say "I'd only veto if they were an obvious trouble-maker" etc.

Oh, and I know it's his choice. I just think it's a sad situation because he pursued a possible girlfriend for himself, was happy when she got back in touch, but was put in a situation where he would lose another longer-term, more established girlfriend if he pursued anything. I also think it's sad because I meant well and had good intentions. You may all think I was just trying to see him again and just going to "tolerate" her, but you're wrong.

I had visions of being really, really close to her. I had visions of us being very friendly and just supporting each other as people in the same profession, people who value the same guy, etc., etc.
 
For what it is worth... if I were Jeni, things that might change my mind/perspective would be if you approached me independently with what I believed was a genuine interest in healing and recreating OUR metamour relationship (even if it just be platonic). To see if we are compatible as friends or just respectful people before we get emotionally entangled with our shared lover where it previously fell apart. Of course this is not necessary nor to be expected as standard but it would show me good faith and intention on your part to not want to damage my existing relationship. In time I could slowly begin to trust you and welcome you into my life and hear directly from you how your views and feelings have changed and share mine as well. Of course Jeni could be very different than me.

Best wishes and future happiness,

Katrpillar

In case you don't see the above email that I referred to, here it is. What I wrote to her.

I think it would be really great to get to know you and develop more of a friendship with you. We are probably very different in a lot of ways, but I think we have a lot of common ground as well. I even think it would be fun to eventually hang out with you and ______ together.

I’ve missed him a lot. He’s a terrific guy, and I definitely want him in my life. I don’t presume to know what you are thinking about it all, but I feel compelled to say that there should be no concern that I’m going to take him away from you. I don’t want to, nor will I. He is very devoted to you, cares about you a lot, and is extremely close to you, and I have no desire to change that. I am glad for you and for him that you have each other.

Anyway, I’ve said the main things I want to say. But I am still open to talking on the phone or meeting up for coffee if you want to.


And as I said....called her even after that email and got no answer, no return call.
 
No, no "all" the threads here don't say that, which thread did you get this from?

I have not read this entire thread, but I am going to wiegh in anyway. Vetos are not generally accepted as a good way of doing business in poly. Everyone is an individual and everyone makes their own choices from that perspective. Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.

Also, I understand that he had to ultimately choose to abide by her choice in order to make it a no-go between him and me dating again. Doesn't change the fact that the original choice came from her.
 
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