Need help with sex problem

I felt like it was being misread as "Given this paragraph about my 14 year marriage, do you think he's worth staying with?"

Another quick clarification. I am not suggesting that you necessarily end your marriage. My view of relationships is that they are not static, but in a constant state of flux. Some relationships can go on for years without really having major changes but that is just dumb luck, imo, and is not a reflection on what a reasonable expectation is. As people learn and grow, mature and change hormonally they *will* change.

If IV and I stop being sexually interested in each other that will cause us to change the nature of how we relate. To many that means "breaking up" but I don't live in an all-or-nothing world when it comes to my relationships. It might change how much time we spend together or the nature of how our time is spent, but wanting to fuck each other is not intrinsically related to loving and being committed to each other.

My assertion is that you would be better off by not clinging to a dynamic that is not working. If it needs to change, let it change. Among adults relationships should be allowed to shift and adjust according to the development of the people in them (not arbitrary time limits or titles). And if they are no longer bringing joy to the lives of those involved I think they should be adjusted until they are - and yes, even if that means dissolving the association completely.
 
I think GG's right that addressing some of the underlying sources of tension would help. It seems understandable that you might not feel in the mood or be prone to irritation.

I think I recall that you used to describe your husband as pretty well suited to you sexually. How much has your reaction to him changed?

Maybe it would be useful to change the frame for sex. You don't want to initiate, but it doesn't work right now if he does.

Could you schedule it, so neither of you is vulnerable to rejection? This would also give you the opportunity to get yourself in the mood a bit ahead of time.

Could you lower expectations? View it as a chance to build comfort with each other, or to please the other or just experiment, and find some value in it even if it isn't great? Attitude can make a big difference.

Would it help to just accept that you're not all that turned on right now? Not accept and therefore ignore it rather than trying to address it, but I wonder if you are fighting against that feeling and making yourself feel worse.

I think there was a bit addressing how to rebuild comfort in a book called "Because it feels good". Although that's not its overall focus, I think that emotionally it resonated with me when I read it.
 
Hmm, your h drives me crazy and I'm not even married to him.

Anyway!

My gf's libido is lower than mine, and she can be passive, a "pillow princess." Sometimes when she gets too much that way, I just take care of my own sexual needs (or let my bf take care of me), and leave her alone sexually for a while. She still talks to me a lot, we cuddle, we kiss, we have quality time and dates, we say I love you, we are romantic, so we remain connected that way.

I do get frustrated by her passivity sometimes and every few months I do feel the need to vent verbally about my frustration. It mostly works out. I understand she was formerly a 24/7 slave in the BDSM world and that is her nature, to be more of a recipient.

I get to see my bf once or twice a week though, and our sex is intense, we are both switches and mix it up who is the aggressor. Very satisfactory!

But miss pixi and I don't have all the underlying tension about being poly that you two do. Those kinds of tensions are intimacy and libido killers. BTDT with my ex husband.
 
I see that you are not willing to push him beyond what he can tolerate... But how close to the edge ARE you willing to run him? Yourself? How willing are you to let go of baggage yourself?

You have sex problems
You have emotional problems.
He does all he can to ignore C exists or that you spend time with C.
C's worried about being a homewrecker.
You are afraid to be you.

Haven't gone into CLEAR dealbreaker territory. That would almost be easier.

It seems to run right up to the edgiest edge possible without tipping over with no comfort margins left for anyone to breathe easy.

I think if I can resolve the emotional problems, it will mostly clear up the sex problems. (I'm ok with our sex not fulfilling all my fantasies, since I do have C for some of that.) C won't worry about wrecking our family if these emotional/sex problems resolve. So it comes down to my husband not being comfortable with C's role in my life, and he says it's not a deal breaker at this point. He also believes it will get easier in time, when our kids are older, and my family needs less of my time.

A friend of mine said what I really need to ask him is whether he thinks my relationship with C is wrong, and if it's wrong in his eyes, then why does he think it's wrong? Maybe if he could answer this, I wouldn't feel so judged for it.

We got a David Schnarch book at the library this evening. Hoping that will give us some insights.

Tomorrow is our wedding anniversary.
 
I know you and your husband were seeing a therapist for a while. Has that continued?

I also think it's important to try not to compare, but what I hear most in your posts is your resentment...

So, I would say ya gotta look at your expectations, & find a way to let go of resentments.

We stopped therapy because the sessions weren't helping. We'd go in and dredge up all our problems and the therapist never gave us much more than, "Do you hear what she's saying?" and "I think what he's trying to convey is that..." but we usually left feeling much worse than when we started, with no pointers on what to do with a the unearthed pain. I thought maybe books would be more useful this time.

Resentment... Guilty! I think that's what's eating me. I'm resenting him for not being everything he's not, when I know in my head that what he is, is someone amazing. I really wish he had poly leanings himself. I feel like a little jealousy at my end would do me good. I watch him dance sometimes and see the happy looks on the faces of these lovely young women who seek him out, and it helps me not get irritated with him on the dance floor. Something similar in our sex life would be good. (Not that I want to watch him have sex with other people, but if he went out sometimes, and came back glowing, it might do me good to see it.) But he's monogamous through and through, and I need to accept that too.
 
AnotherConfused, it sounds to me like you just have a compatibility issue in the bedroom... I also believe that me being able to express my poly side by having another relationship helps me quite a bit.

With my BF, however, there is no trying involved. It is clear to me that he and I are much more sexually compatible. I think this is partly because he is more sexually experienced than my husband is, and, well, practice makes perfect, right? ...We are also not having PIV sex, but I can relate to your experience of knowing that can be just fine. :)

I wonder if learning something like tantra or trying some actual techniques would be helpful for you? It would give you both something to focus on, a specific thing to try. Your husband may simply not really know what else to do?? Or take a workshop of some kind? Maybe you can just realize that your husband will give you quiet lovemaking sexual experiences, and C will give you something different?

Just my two cents...

Willow

Wow, we have very similar situations! My husband was a virgin when we met. C hasn't had many partners and claims to never have had a good sex life before, but for whatever reason it's just effortless with us.

I do think I can be content with one kind of sweet and gentle lovemaking at home, and exploring my wilder side with C. But I can't even seem to get any kind of sex at home these days. There's something very sad about trying to have sex with my husband and failing! And it's hard not to resent that I can only have PIV sex in the more difficult relationship.

Tantra techniques... I'm sure those will be useful at some point, but probably I need to clear the way emotionally first.
 
I for one do not have an opinion about what people do or don't do with their genitals; it is not my business. What I do have an opinion about and have expressed is the insistence that rules for how a partner should behave are going to help bring about a more harmonious relationship. The fact that this particular relationship has a rule banning something is what I call dumb and counterproductive... it is not hinged upon the PIV sex part.

I see your point but I think it's going to vary from person to person whether this rule is a big deal or not. Most of us are fine with rules (often unspoken) like "Don't text while I'm having sex with you," or "Don't have unprotected sex with others" because we find these things to be reasonable. Whereas rules like "Tell me everything you do with your other partner" or "Call me every 15 minutes when you are out" would be pretty unreasonable and therefore intolerable to most. In my case, the PIV sex rule is tolerable. I'm a fingers girl. For others on this forum it's a "dumb" rule and a deal breaker. For a large part of society it's a complete given in a marriage. It's a matter of perspective, don't you think? We can't just say that all rules of behavior need to be scrapped. We act with others' interests in mind as well as our own.
 
Another quick clarification. I am not suggesting that you necessarily end your marriage....

...It might change how much time we spend together or the nature of how our time is spent, but wanting to fuck each other is not intrinsically related to loving and being committed to each other.

My assertion is that you would be better off by not clinging to a dynamic that is not working. If it needs to change, let it change.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree. Things shift and change, and we are definitely not the same couple now as we were 14 years ago. However, our marriage always seems to be better when we are sexually involved. Maybe because it's a reflection of the health of our emotional intimacy. I'd rather fix that, than drop that part of our relationship altogether. I don't think we could be as emotionally close as I'd like to be if we weren't sex partners as well (which is the problem).

I think if he were my only outlet for sexual fulfillment, I'd be more worried about the viability of our relationship. Considering that I do have C, I think I can work on getting back enough of a marital sex life that it feels close, happy, and natural. That's my goal.
 
I can't even seem to get any kind of sex at home these days. There's something very sad about trying to have sex with my husband and failing!.

None at all? When was the last time you had sexy time? If not actual fucking, at least arousal and orgasms on both sides?

And how often do you and C get to meet and get it on? I am just wondering how bad it's getting for you!

You 2 might try a different therapist, you know. Heck, even a Christian counselor would recommend regular sex for the health of the marriage bond. I know I've had female Christian friends who were told by pastoral counseling it was their Christian duty to have sex with their horny Christian husbands... but maybe Christians don't care if it's the woman with the higher libido!:eek:
 
To me he is not "monogamous." He is in a polyship with you and C already. That's not monogamy then. To me he is "monoamorous." He loves you and only partnered with you.

Is there some guilt thing here to resolve on your end with that? Like it would be ok to give yourself permission to love C and DH if only DH also had someone else to "make it even" somehow? And because he isn't doing that, you are "stuck in guilt" and hello resentment toward DH? :confused:

It isn't only DH's having to do emotional work with "I am enough for her" kind of stuff and not going all off into the land of "Why's she got to have 2? Aren't I enough for her? " thinking patterns? He has "pre-decided" your rejection of him, so then it comes out in not wanting to initiate sex? :confused:

Maybe expand the definition of sexy time to be less pressured "sensual time?" Kissing, hugging, making out, taking showers together -- sensual time. Could reframing it that way take the pressure off?

Maybe there's other baggage there in the emotional health or mental health department of the marriage. What about the spiritual health of the marriage? How's that? Because while there's sex problems, it doesn't sound like it relates to physical health things like libido or erectile dysfunction or similar. It pops out in this area, but that's not where the root problem starts.

Maybe something like this could help change the negative thinking patterns for each of you better than the therapist did? Something more "group" oriented than just you guys and the counselor?

I think if he were my only outlet for sexual fulfillment, I'd be more worried about the viability of our relationship. Considering that I do have C, I think I can work on getting back enough of a marital sex life that it feels close, happy, and natural. That's my goal.

It sounds like maybe you know what you want to do/resolve/accomplish but need help with the HOW of it? :confused:
But do you know that HIS goals are? For himself and for the marriage? And are they compatible goals with yours? :confused:

Emotional intimacy can happen not just through sex (physical intimacy) but through talking (mental intimacy). When was the last time you guys had a good heart-to-heart kind of talk?

I dunno if that helps any. Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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I think I recall that you used to describe your husband as pretty well suited to you sexually. How much has your reaction to him changed?

Thanks. I remembered writing some time ago here that we had a very good sex life. I'm not sure where things went wrong.

Could you schedule it, so neither of you is vulnerable to rejection? This would also give you the opportunity to get yourself in the mood a bit ahead of time.

I think that would make it worse. When I feel an expectation for sex, I get even more tense about whether I'm reacting the right way to his touch, etc.

Could you lower expectations? View it as a chance to build comfort with each other, or to please the other or just experiment, and find some value in it even if it isn't great? Attitude can make a big difference.

I suggested we just remove the goal of sex from the picture and try just enjoying touch, but he thought I was trying to punish him for not wanting me to have sex with C ("If I can't do it with C, I won't do it with you either"). Last time we actually got anywhere, he gave me a nice experience with his hands and then I tried to do the same for him, but needed some help towards the end, and he told me later that asking him to use his hands made him feel rejected, punished, unwanted. Whereas I thought we were finally getting some spice back. *sigh*

Would it help to just accept that you're not all that turned on right now?

I feel like we need to have sex. First, when he doesn't ask even though others (not just C but also flirty friends and acquaintances) indicate desire, I feel rejected by him. And second, I don't feel justified having a good sex life with C if I can't please my own husband. Maybe that's silly, but I do feel like I should fill my family's cup, in the various ways each of them need me, before I devote time and energy to someone else.

I think there was a bit addressing how to rebuild comfort in a book called "Because it feels good". Although that's not its overall focus, I think that emotionally it resonated with me when I read it.

Thanks. I will look for that one too.
 
Last time we actually got anywhere, he gave me a nice experience with his hands and then I tried to do the same for him, but needed some help towards the end, and he told me later that asking him to use his hands made him feel rejected, punished, unwanted. Whereas I thought we were finally getting some spice back. *sigh*

What's that mean? :confused:

Correct me if my guess is wrong. But does that mean you shared a sexual experience with your spouse. And...

1) ...you wanted to finish with an orgasm so you asked him to finish you off digitally? And then he got sad that you got off with his hands rather than his penis? :confused: Is he having penis issues with your lover C's penis being "better" than his somehow? Hence all this emotional rigamarole? :confused:

2) ... you enjoyed digital sex with him so you tried to do the same for him and bring him sexual pleasure with your hands too. But couldn't bring him to orgasm and asked him to help you out and he got sad that you couldn't bring him off alone? Is he laying too much value on your ability to bring him to orgasm as "proof" of your attraction to him? Hence all this emotional rigamarole? :confused:

I'm not trying to be crude or blunt but it's hard to help you find out where the emotional problems might lie when things aren't clear about what behavior (X?) that triggered thinking the thoughts (ex: I'm not enough for her!") that next triggered the emotional response. (ex: I feel rejected, punished, unwanted!)

Could THAT also be part of the problems between you? Not enough direct, clear talk and too much euphamism/hinting around?

Then one thinks things are cool and the other doesn't and sulks and then it becomes mountain out of molehills? :confused:

Galagirl
 
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I think she meant he fingered her, she came, then she was jerking him off, her hands/wrists/arms got tired, and she asked him to take over and he got all mad about that and attached all these bs emotions to it, when it was just that her hands gave out!
 
I figured it was mutual masturbation of some kind but couldn't figure out where the break down happened. :confused:

Because he didn't really want to be trading handjobs and really wanted to be doing PIV and came to the sex share "pre-rejected" in his head?

Or if it was because her hand got tired jerking him off and he viewed this as rejection of him rather than a limit of the universe -- that hands DO get tired sometimes?

There's some communication breakdown somewhere in there.

Hands/mouths get tired, things chafe -- it's not a big deal around here to just announce "Time to change! Leg cramp!" or "Need more lube!" or something and just shift things around and keep enjoying the sex share.

How old are you guys, OP? Could andropause hormones be playing in there somewhere too?

But I think you pretty much nailed it here:


He wants me to be happy and he knows I need this relationship, so I think he's justifying the "cheating" as not real cheating as long as there isn't real sex involved. I just don't think he could mentally come to terms with being married to a woman who has sex with someone else.

At this time, he has not mentally come to terms being married to a woman who has sex with someone else.

Trying to reconcile it as "it doesn't count unless it is PIV" is telling himself stories because to him it ALL counts as sex. And he's not ok with it. And is no okayness leaks over into his sex life with you.

So... now what?

Accept this is a hard limit for him -- he's not up for sharing you sexually?

Or has he accept this is a soft limit form him and could change in time... but accept that he needs help changing it? He can't manage to do it alone? Bottom line -- Is he wanting to do the work to come to terms with sharing you sexually and remain in polyship? Change his sex beliefs about sex/love? His culture's programming?

Or is he just going along for the ride secretly hoping it will all magically go away one day and not be a thing any more? I'd be worried about that possibility because maybe he's doing it "for you" and doing it against his own willingness? And THAT is the emotion root of the yucky rippling all through the system? :(

Galagirl
 
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T. . . I don't feel justified having a good sex life with C if I can't please my own husband. Maybe that's silly, but I do feel like I should fill my family's cup, in the various ways each of them need me, before I devote time and energy to someone else.

Well, that's a very big guilt trip to lay on yourself! Don't feed that monster. Are you sure you aren't just picking up on the guilt your husband might be feeling and owning it as your own? This sounds like you are both beating yourselves up.

Maybe your husband just doesn't need sex as much as you or C do, maybe his testosterone levels are low, maybe he doesn't even know what he wants because he's so inexperienced, maybe you should find another, better therapist.

Have you thought about a sex therapist? I have some friends who went to a sex coach and it made a drastic improvement in their sex life. It just kept getting better and better after that.
 
Sorry, I could have been more clear. I mean he got me off with his fingers, and then I went to return the favor, and since my hand got tired he finished (while I caressed him). He was upset because it was a hand job rather than PIV sex. He thought that was a punishment, like I was trying to show him that C can't do anything else with me, so I wasn't letting my husband do anything else either.

Which is sad, because when C and I do those things, they are wonderful and exciting and satisfying, and C is perfectly content, but for my husband the very same acts make him feel hurt.

My thinking at the time was: my husband and I try to have sex. We end up feeling hurt. C and I don't try to have "sex" but just to please each other with our hands, and we do fine. Maybe removing PIV sex from the picture would allow me to have a good time with my husband too. But now I have learned that he finds hand jobs degrading, so we won't go there again.
 
None at all? When was the last time you had sexy time? If not actual fucking, at least arousal and orgasms on both sides?

And how often do you and C get to meet and get it on? I am just wondering how bad it's getting for you!

Not sure how long it's been... weeks, anyway. The hand job thing was a couple of weeks ago I think.

C and I are technically supposed to get together once a month for an overnight, but we haven't had that since April, since my husband was struggling with it more lately. We've seen each other a handful of times since then, but briefly, not for private time. (He lives 5 hours away and passes through town now and then.) I get to see him this Saturday, overnight.

Yeah, I'm not getting any. I think it's ridiculous to be poly and celibate, but there it is. Someone was flirting with me recently and remarked that he was single and had no outlet for the effect I had on him, whereas I had multiple avenues for release... You'd think so, wouldn't you? Sad, sad.
 
You state that he doesn't know you very well in an earlier post about squeezing your legs when you don't like that. You don't seem to know him very well either if you didn't know handjobs for him don't rate til now either. :(

You cannot magically mind reader each other. Tastes and preferences can change.

How about making a date to check out the check list below and get to know what DOES rate for each of you then? Get reacquainted?

http://openingup.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Open-Relationship-Checklist-OU.pdf

Could copy and paste relevant bits to Word or something before printing so he doesn't have to know it's an "Opening Up" thing if you think that would make him not want to do it with you as a "getting to know each other again" exercise.

Could see what things you are willing /not willing to do those together. And how high it would rate. Then go try some!

Does he want PIV at every sexual encounter? If you are up for that, go with it then. If you don't, don't. But reassure him it isn't a punishment thing. It's an "I don't feel like that right now I rather do X!" thing. Your body is yours. You share it how you want to.

But taking a step back from the trees a bit and checking out the forest level view....

Maybe he thinks you punish him with sex because HE is punishing YOU with sex and the no PIV limit? Could ask him that.

"Do you think I punish you with sex when ____ happens because you are punishing ME somehow with the no PIV limit? Do you know I am totally ok honoring that limit?"​

Maybe you being ok with it backfired. You weren't "supposed" to be ok with it? He meant it as a punishment and you were supposed to be unhappy with C because of it and dump him without DH having to ask that of you (and thus risk you picking C instead). But here you are having a great time with C without PIV! Neither of you is suffering! While he is! Now what is DH supposed to do? (<-- is that the line of thought he is on?)

And maybe to clear the air you could ask...

"Do you think I punish you with sex? Because you punish me with the no PIV sex thing? Because really you don't want to be sharing me sexually with anyone? But don't say it straight up?

And you tried to be in polyship to please me (and / or not "lose me") but came to find it sucks for you and now wish you never went there in the first place?"​

Was any of that aired out in therapy? :(

Could make up your mind what your main goal is here.

You aren't going to get them all in one go. You have a lot of layers going on there. :(

But if you crave emotional intimacy most of all... going to have to start tackling having the hard conversations, asking the hard questions, risk being vulnerable to each other, face some not so great sides of each other, and... still choose to be willing to be together and willing love each other anyway...warts and all.

That's how emotional intimacy is built to me. By taking the risk to be emotionally laid bare and risk being emotionally hurt to find out what you need to know.

Galagirl
 
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Is there some guilt thing here to resolve on your end with that? Like it would be ok to give yourself permission to love C and DH if only DH also had someone else to "make it even" somehow? And because he isn't doing that, you are "stuck in guilt" and hello resentment toward DH? :confused:

Bingo! But how do I "unguilt" myself? He doesn't want me to have a boyfriend. I want a boyfriend. Married women don't have boyfriends (that's the culture talking).

It isn't only DH's having to do emotional work with "I am enough for her" kind of stuff and not going all off into the land of "Why's she got to have 2? Aren't I enough for her? " thinking patterns? He has "pre-decided" your rejection of him, so then it comes out in not wanting to initiate sex? :confused:

No, the sexual rejection thing is a little different. In the beginning of our relationship, sometimes he'd be interested in sex, and I would not be. I was not entirely recovered from a bad relationship in which I was pressured for sex every morning and every night, plus I had undiagnosed nutritional deficiencies from celiac disease, so that I often had a very physical reaction to being asked for sex I didn't want (shaking, shutting down). He felt rejected and decided it wasn't worth trying to initiate sex. For many years I was very relieved by this "freedom" from ever having to say no to sex. And then we got busy with raising babies. And then my sexuality returned, a few years ago, and I realized I had a husband who seemed to get by just fine whether we had sex or not, and that felt bad to me.

Maybe expand the definition of sexy time to be less pressured "sensual time?" Kissing, hugging, making out, taking showers together -- sensual time. Could reframing it that way take the pressure off?

Yes, but I feel like now if I suggest these things he'll think I'm trying to limit him to what he allows with C, and decide I'm punishing him. I think I need to ask him to read this thread.

It sounds like maybe you know what you want to do/resolve/accomplish but need help with the HOW of it? :confused:
But do you know that HIS goals are? For himself and for the marriage? And are they compatible goals with yours? :confused:

He wants us to stay together. Of course his dream future involves me returning to monogamy, but he's not holding his breath. He wants us to have an active sex life. He already read the 1st 70 pages of Intimacy and Desire.

Emotional intimacy can happen not just through sex (physical intimacy) but through talking (mental intimacy). When was the last time you guys had a good heart-to-heart kind of talk?

He's not a talker, and I've been telling him that it leaves me feeling excluded. It's just not his nature to chew the fat. He said he doesn't want to burden me with his problems when I have problems of my own, but I told him that helps me feel wanted as a wife. He said he needs to practice his conversation skills. I don't feel like I really am "allowed in". But I think that's his personality, and not a willful attempt to shut me out.
 
Ohhh, enjoy Saturday night, girl!

Maybe your h reminds me of my ex h too much and that is why I get so pissed off at him. All this reading into things and grudges and sulks. It just reeks of low self esteem and not owning his shit. And all the coddling and "trying" on your side isn't going to bring up his self esteem. That has to come from within.

Yes, my ex was a "wonderful man" and a "good dad" too.

But I ended up just losing all respect for him. Fuck, I gave him 34 years and he hadn't ever grown out of those attitudes. I do not recommend you give your h 34 years of your life.
 
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