Alternatives to making "rules"

I have been interested in poly for a decade or so, but only in an officially poly relationship for the last year. We've made 4 official rules, but then dozens of other "potential rules" or "guidelines" or something. She has broken these lesser rules a few times and it resulted in fights.

What are the consequences of breaking rules?

I feel like if you're not going to break up over rule-breaking (and I probably wouldn't unless it was really egregious), then what's the point in having them? They aren't binding, they have no teeth. It's more an expression of what you want than something that must be done.

I feel like maybe there's a different way to make an agreement rather than "rules". Or we can state principles or something. Like agree on a rationale for some action that makes us unhappy, and why.

Like some people have this anti-authority bent that causes them to want to break the law just to get back at The Man, and it's better if the law were stated in a different way. Instead of "Buckle up, it's the law" they should say "Buckle up or your head will go through the windshield". I want to write down the "Why" behind the rules somehow
 
Interesting question. It might be helpful to have examples of what things are official rules and what are the guidelines that keep getting broken.

Ideally, I think there shouldn't need to be any rules. You should just be able to talk things out to such a degree and know each other well enough and respect each other enough that you avoid actions that would hurt each other or check in if there's a question. Like, if my lover is an avid gardener I know not to trample through her garden... we don't need a rule about it.

Another reason that it's ideal not to have a lot, or any, rules in poly is that usually those rules govern what each person can do with their other partners, and that's a highly difficult situation for everyone involved. I mean, imagine if you and your rule-breaker lover were having a romantic evening and you knew you could kiss but not french kiss, lie on the couch but not on the bed, say "I like you a lot" but not "I love you", touch here but not there, even though both of you wanted to... I mean it'd be intensely frustrating yet in a weird way the sense of the forbidden would make everything hotter, which would make it more frustrating, etcetcetc.

And I know not all rules are about sex, but similar principles can certainly apply in other contexts. Love-relationships really need to develop at their own pace and constrictions in are likely to feel very alien and wrong.

I know an absence of rules isn't practical for many people though, especially not early on. So, I'd keep the things you need to be rules as rules and do more deep talking to try to get to the point where she really understands why these things matter to you. And consider loosening up if you can, and only asking for the things you really need.

If she continues to ignore your needs, whether they're phrased as rules or requests, then it's the lack of respect that needs to be addressed. And how to do that? Well... all I can say is that if a partner continually disrespected me and wouldn't change, I'd consider some time apart.
 
I don't mess around with rules much. I figure that if the parties involved love and respect one another and communicate well, rules aren't really necessary. The communication is key to this. My sweeties can only respond to a need or desire of mine if I let them know I have this need or desire. They are free to respond as they will to any request or expression of need/desire. They are not rule bound. If I'm unhappy with their response, it's up to me to say so. But I/we don't feel the need to formulate an official list of rules. Instead, we try our best to care for and look out for one another.

I did recently ask if Faraway Sweetie would not begin any other loverly relationships for a while (undetermined, long enough for she and I to settle into whatever pattern will emerge between us). She understood my desire and need and agreed to it. But I don't feel we have a "rule". She's completely free to do as she will. I was surprised I even asked for what I did. Still, if she chose to go ahead and begin another loverly relationship while we're in the early stages of romantic exploration between us, I'd not feel that she was cheating or breaking a rule. I think I just needed to feel that she understands that I have a little "insecurity" around her possible loverly involvement with new* others while we're so new together. And she does understand, and agreed. And now my need has changed because of her understanding and willingness. (I'm pretty flexible on the matter.) I just needed her to know that I'd be more comfortable about her exploring other loverly relationships when she and I are more "established," after we have a "foundation" (her word choice).

Of course, nothing is certain about how things will unfold between us. I'm not going there to see her as a loverly partner but as a loving and intimate friend with "romantic" feelings in the blend. All of these feelings are known to be mutual.




*This is not a double standard. I've been with Kevin for fifteen years. He's anything but new. And I'm choosing not to start any new loverly relationships while she and I are new together. Too many new explorations at once does not seem an ideal atmosphere for those who are new to one another. (At least not for us.)
 
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One thing I have learned, is that boundaries and guidelines are needed. I formerly was of the opinion that we didn`t need them.
I was walked on, because of it. People said one thing, and did another, changed their mind like their underwear, and flip-flopped like beached fish.
Not because they were evil, but because we all make mistakes as we deal with the learning curve.
We all have this idea it would be great if they (boundaries) didn`t exsist. The truth is, it would be great if we didn`t have a NEED for them to exsist.

..but,...we do. :)

The truth of learning new behaviours, ways of living, and of thinking, is that we need training wheels as we go. We DO need our protective gear. As we learn more and more, the training wheels can come off.
Where things can go wrong, is when we start calling them 'rules' or 'laws' or any type of thinking, that makes things seem eternally forbidden. If you put people in a position where crossing a line EVER equals 'failure', you will create the very failures you are scared of.
The outlook going into any boundaries should have the parties involved asking themselves these questions :

- What is our reason for needing this boundary ?

- Who isn`t comfortable with this boundary ? With that noted, what type of changes would that person like to see as time goes on ?

- How often will we re-evaulate our need for this boundary ?

Not having boundaries does not make you some God or Goddess Of Acceptance, anymore then Learning to swim by tying rocks to yourself, makes you a hero.
So the 'alternative' as I see it, is the state of mind the boundaries are made in. Plenty of people sit down and make a list of 'rules' yet each of them have different expectations of what those rules mean.

Changing your phrasing can help more parties be on board.
To many people :

'Breaking rules' results in punishment.

'Crossing boundaries' results in consequences.

In one instance people will complain of being treated like children, or prisoners, ( and may act accordingly) in the other instance people may accept responsibility.
The outcome of any situation, usually comes from the initial design.


Good Luck.
 
I love the distinction between punishments and consequences, SG!
 
Interesting question. It might be helpful to have examples of what things are official rules and what are the guidelines that keep getting broken.

An example of a rule is "no sex with a new partner until we've discussed it", which she's followed well so far.

An example of a potential rule is "We should know as much as possible about a potential date beforehand", or "No dating monogamous people". I guess her behavior could be interpreted as a violation of this, or not, depending.

I mean it'd be intensely frustrating yet in a weird way the sense of the forbidden would make everything hotter

I don't think that's universal. Probably depends on personality.

So, I'd keep the things you need to be rules as rules and do more deep talking to try to get to the point where she really understands why these things matter to you. And consider loosening up if you can, and only asking for the things you really need.

If she continues to ignore your needs, whether they're phrased as rules or requests, then it's the lack of respect that needs to be addressed. And how to do that? Well... all I can say is that if a partner continually disrespected me and wouldn't change, I'd consider some time apart.

That's very good advice, thanks.

'Breaking rules' results in punishment.

'Crossing boundaries' results in consequences.

In one instance people will complain of being treated like children, or prisoners, ( and may act accordingly) in the other instance people may accept responsibility.
The outcome of any situation, usually comes from the initial design.

Yes! That's the sort of thing I'm looking for.
 
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When you discuss boundaries with your partner, there's some give and take. A "rule" that keeps getting broken can be looked at two ways. From one perspective, it was inconsiderate of your partner to break the rule you agreed on. From another perspective, if the rule is so impossible to follow, maybe it was a stupid/unfair/unrealistic rule.

A rule like "no dating monogamous people" is an example of a rule that can be difficult to follow. First of all, depending on where you live, there might not be a whole selection of out poly people to choose from. We become interested in people because of their unique qualities and shared interests, not necessarily because they are the right sex and are poly and happen to be around. You know?

Also, "non-monogamous" is an action, not a species of human. Non-monogamous people don't have tags on their ears. You can switch back and forth from being monogamous to being non-monogamous. You say you've been interested in poly for 10 years, but officially in a poly relationship for 1 year. So there must have been times in your life when you were monogamous, right? And now you're not.

So if your partner likes someone and they get along, but this someone has only had monogamous partnerships before, there's probably nothing wrong with her talking to them anyway, explaining the situation (that she's in another relationship, and if they got involved it wouldn't be exclusive). Then the other person could decide whether the arrangement could work for them or not.

"We should know as much as possible about a potential date beforehand" sounds vague. Beforehand to what? The first date? The first time you have sex? And how much is *possible* to find out about someone before you've dated them? Dating is usually the process of getting to know someone. You don't want to give your date a questionnaire where they fill in their allergies, shoe size, etc. But at the same time I agree that getting into bed with a stranger is probably a bad idea. So there's definitely some wiggle room in this "rule". Perhaps you and your partner weren't clear on what this "rule" meant.

I'll have to say that me and my husband only have one rule: that we use protection with outside partners. Other than that, we don't have rules, but we do try to be considerate of the other's feelings. That means checking in a lot and being reasonable.
 
A rule like "no dating monogamous people" is an example of a rule that can be difficult to follow.

Oh, it should be phrased: "No dating people in monogamous relationships" (= the other person is cheating)

But yeah, there is also something like "People you date have to respect our relationship and at least be open to non-monogamy", which should not be hard to follow either.

"We should know as much as possible about a potential date beforehand" sounds vague. Beforehand to what?

Meaning that before she goes on a first date with someone, I should know about it, and know what she knows about him so far. I should know whether they've been talking on the phone every day and flirting heavily, or that they've only written back and forth a few times and their messages are purely formal. It's not about what I know about my dates. :) It's knowing about the other person's dates.

Perhaps you and your partner weren't clear on what this "rule" meant.

Agreed.

I'll have to say that me and my husband only have one rule: that we use protection with outside partners.

Yeah, that's the first one.

And yes, it would be nice if non-monogamous people wore a ring on a certain finger or something.
 
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Rules to me are set in stone and will not be changed. Discussing and agreeing on boundaries means that we are all working together and that things might morph into something else as time goes on and circumstance changes. I prefer the fluidity of that myself.

As for what happens when someone breaks a rule? Well, that would be a deal breaker for me when I think of what I consider rules (ie. sleeping with someone unprotected and then having sex with me unprotected and not telling me). Then again, its all circumstantial really.

I think if a boundary is crossed then its a matter of getting back to the drawing board and hashing out what happened, the possibility of a change having occurred that warrants agreeing to new boundaries and working through the emotions that follow. I like to think that boundary breaking is not a deal breaker, but a cry for change or better understanding.
 
Meaning that before she goes on a first date with someone, I should know about it, and know what she knows about him so far.

I would expect that she'd mention anybody she was interested in as a matter of normal conversation. The same as I'd mention anybody interesting I run into during the day ("I met a man with a peg leg today...."), I mention to Curly anybody I've met that I think I might be interested in. Why would anybody need a rule to talk about who they find interesting?

I should know whether they've been talking on the phone every day and flirting heavily, or that they've only written back and forth a few times and their messages are purely formal. .

Why do you feel the need for that? What difference does it make to you? Your partner finds somebody interesting enough to make a date--what does it matter if the person has been texting hourly for a week or emailing daily for a couple of months?
 
Oh, it should be phrased: "No dating people in monogamous relationships" (= the other person is cheating)

Oh yes, definitely. If your partner dated a guy who was cheating on his partner with her, that is totally unethical and not in line with poly basics.

But yeah, there is also something like "People you date have to respect our relationship and at least be open to non-monogamy", which should not be hard to follow either.

We do have to look out for cowboys and cowgirls, people who seem cool with dating a poly person, but are really looking to get them away from their primary and into a mono relationship with them.


Meaning that before she goes on a first date with someone, I should know about it, and know what she knows about him so far. I should know whether they've been talking on the phone every day and flirting heavily, or that they've only written back and forth a few times and their messages are purely formal. It's not about what I know about my dates. :) It's knowing about the other person's dates.

Do you live with your partner? If you do, wouldnt you notice if she was IMing/phoning a lot or not? Wouldnt you just kind of gather how excited she was about this or that guy?
 
I would expect that she'd mention anybody she was interested in as a matter of normal conversation.

She volunteers information sometimes, but I have to ask other times. I am trying to encourage her. (On the other hand, I promptly forget a third of what she tells me...)

Why do you feel the need for that? What difference does it make to you? Your partner finds somebody interesting enough to make a date--what does it matter if the person has been texting hourly for a week or emailing daily for a couple of months?

Maybe it doesn't make a difference to you, but one thing I've noticed is that surprises really hurt me; feel like cheating even if they're not. If I'm expecting her to be out with coworkers and she spontaneously meets up with a guy afterward, I am hurt by the surprise of it. She can't always tell me about dates before they happen, because sometimes they're legitimately spontaneous, but she *can* tell me that she's crushing on someone, being asked out a lot by someone, exchanging naked pics with someone, etc. so that when I find out about other things that have happened, they are not unexpected. As long as I have realistic expectations, my feelings seem to work out well. If my expectations are... exceeded, I feel betrayed (regardless of whether she actually did anything wrong).

Oh yes, definitely. If your partner dated a guy who was cheating on his partner with her, that is totally unethical and not in line with poly basics.

Nah, not dated. Just drunkenly made out with an engaged friend after admitting their crushes on each other after his bachelor party. That was our biggest fight, several months ago. This weekend she clearly apologized for that and said it was wrong (yet simultaneously "doesn't regret it"? o_O)

cowboys and cowgirls, people who seem cool with dating a poly person, but are really looking to get them away from their primary and into a mono relationship with them.

Good term! Is that in common usage?

Do you live with your partner? If you do, wouldnt you notice if she was IMing/phoning a lot or not? Wouldnt you just kind of gather how excited she was about this or that guy?

We don't live together, so no. And (ideally) she's not spending our whole time together texting with other guys, so the only way I can know that she has a crush on a coworker and hangs out with him every day after work and would accept if he put the moves on her is if she tells me.
 
Gosh, cuddles, I hate to say this, but I am getting the impression she's keeping you around as the long suffering "nice guy" who offers security and a safe home base, while she goes out making out with and banging the forbidden bad boys. :(

2 drunken escapes (and she doesn't regret them)?

Yes, cowgirl/boy is a poly term. We have a glossary here, you might want to check it out.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1720
 
Gosh, cuddles, I hate to say this, but I am getting the impression she's keeping you around as the long suffering "nice guy" who offers security and a safe home base, while she goes out making out with and banging the forbidden bad boys. :(

I am a nice guy! :)

Eh, there may be some truth to that, but I think you're stereotyping.

Yes, she's more of a primary/secondary "open relationship" person, and I'm more of a poly "three serious girlfriends" person? But that's compatible as long as we communicate, right? Also we're both still exploring, so maybe we will change our models with experience.

This latest new guy definitely fits some of the bad boy archetype (except for the whole PhD thing...) I moan about how much better he is than me, and she laughs and says she doesn't care about most of the things I perceive as threatening.

I felt mostly fine, even happy, about her seeing him last night because 1. This time I knew about it beforehand. 2. She spent the previous day at my place cuddling and reassuring and talking about stuff.

After the date she always calls and tells me how it went. Said she was so attached to me during the day she was having second thoughts about seeing him, was annoyed that he didn't show up on time, etc. It's not as threatening as I always fear it to be.

I do think of myself as a beta male, because my personality is so shy/meek/stable/cuddly. She calls me her "secret alpha male", though, brags to her dates about me, and several of them have expressed an interest in being cuckolded by me, which is... kinda backwards. o_O

But now we're way off-topic.



So "boundaries", "guidelines", "rules", ... What I want is more like "rationales" and "solutions" or something. But those are dumb names. Like "Rationale: Action X makes person A feel bad emotion Y. Solution: Therefore, we agree to only do X under condition Z." Then it's not like a context-free "buckle up or else" authoritarian rule that rebels feel an urge to break, and the consequences of "breaking" it are plain as day: person A will feel bad emotion Y.
 
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I am a nice guy! :)

Eh, there may be some truth to that, but I think you're stereotyping.

If the shoe fits...

This latest new guy definitely fits some of the bad boy archetype (except for the whole PhD thing...) I moan about how much better he is than me...

Big mistake! Check your self esteem.

Case in point: my gf miss pixi has a bf. (I'm a woman.)

M is tall, about 6'2." She feels so feminine walking around in public with him!!

He's rich, makes 200G a year!! I have a much smaller income. His apartment is bigger and nice than mine. He can afford to take her out to dinner whenever he feels like it.

He wears kilts with boots!!

He is originally from Spain and has a small but delightful Spanish accent!! A dashing Spaniard!!

He's only 35, to miss pixi's 34. I am 56.

He's a techno-savvy geek (like miss pixi). I'm pretty lame in that department.

He's massively endowed in the lap!!

Does this make me feel he is "better" than me? No way. I am well aware of my gifts and compatibility with her. I won't list my good qualities here, because that would seem like bragging, but I think I've got better than average self esteem.

I felt mostly fine, even happy, about her seeing him last night because 1. This time I knew about it beforehand. 2. She spent the previous day at my place cuddling and reassuring and talking about stuff.

After the date she always calls and tells me how it went. Said she was so attached to me during the day she was having second thoughts about seeing him, was annoyed that he didn't show up on time, etc. It's not as threatening as I always fear it to be.

Well, good. Maybe continued evidence of the reality of her guys (they aren't perfect, neither are you, everyone is just human with the gifts and their annoying quirks and hangups) will eventually sink in with you.

I do think of myself as a beta male, because my personality is so shy/meek/stable/cuddly. She calls me her "secret alpha male", though, brags to her dates about me, and several of them have expressed an interest in being cuckolded by me, which is... kinda backwards. o_O

But now we're way off-topic.

Well, I think your topic is a coverup for your real fears of being "lesser" than any Tom Dick or Harry she might happen to kiss once or twice.
 
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Gosh, CC, in reading through this thread and seeing your rules and the rationales behind them, it seems to me you want to keep a really short leash on your gf and in ways that are somewhat unrealistic or a tad overbearing. It doesn't surprise me that she's broken them.

I think that if you two have agreed to be polyamorous and open, that there has to be some leeway for the unexpected to happen. You say you want information about what's been going on with a guy before she hooks up with him, so that you don't have any surprises because that feel like cheating to you. But how about the possibility that her life is her own and she doesn't need to report back to you every little flirtation that happens. AND instead of wanting some sort of insurance against surprises, accept that there will be surprises. Your feeling hurt by her spontaneously getting together with a guy without you knowing about it beforehand is totally on YOU. She is not hurting you; she is being herself and living her life while you are choosing to feel hurt by it.

You say you've been together for a year. It sounds to me like you both have very different ideas about what kind of relationship you want, and about how you see the relationship you have. You seem more inclined toward poly, while she seems more inclined toward being open. She wants to have certain freedoms to be happy, and you want certain restrictions to be happy. She's tried it your way and couldn't conform to your rules as well as you'd hoped. Maybe you should try it her way and back off from the rule-making and knowing every little thing. It seems some of them are to insure she's safe, but they also seem a little heavy-handed anyway. I don't know why it's necessary that she call you after every date. Mature, responsible behavior doesn't always require reporting back and providing all details before and after. Why isn't it enough to know she's dating other people and will inform you about it if and when she is moved to do so? As long as when she's with you, you have her full attention? Also, do you see other people, too? That might help relieve some of your worrying about her.
 
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