Bringing Up Poly

onoma

New member
So I broke up with my g/f last Friday. Then we broke up again last night. Then we had great sex.

The problem: She wants to start trying for kids in less than a year. She's my first real girlfriend and second women I've slept with (I'm 34,) and since we moved in together things haven't really gone great. Lot's of fighting, and I have worries about how well we'd work long term and especially with raising kids.

So for me, kids means:
1) No chance at sleeping with other women ever, for the rest of my life. (Along with less opportunity for travel, exploration, trying different cities to live in.)

2) I might end up "chained" to a woman who makes me miserable if things don't improve.

The thing is, I'm focused on #2 which makes me say I'm not ready for kids. I don't even necessarily see the point of an open relationship, let alone procreation, if we'll be miserable together.

BUT she's focused only on "not ready for kids." She doesn't see the point of working on our relationship if I'm not ready for kids.

So last night when she tells me I just need to tell her how we can fix this, and that she'd do _anything_ to make me happy, it was all I could think about. I just needed to say that I'd be ready for kids if things worked better between us. Except that I'd still be concerned about #1... so the real answer is: I'd be more ready for kids if things worked better for us and I knew I'd have a shot at other experiences (including other women.)

Trying not to let this post get too long, but I'm really bad at that... so:

Increased Difficulty: She's Catholic. Not Catholic enough to wait until marriage, but I think an open relationship would be more of a problem for her belief system.

ID2: She's specifically said in the past that she would not want an open relationship.

However: She's always the one who's brought it up (to say she wouldn't.) There are other times she's said something that made me think about it.

Examples: Just as we were moving in together the whole "other women" thing came up and she offered to let me be single for a while.

We were watching Desperate Housewives and one girl hired a stripper for her husband, and my gf just joked that I'd enjoy that.

Then the other night on Ambien she actually started talking about what I'd want to do if she brought a "sex worker" home to me.



TL;DR Version:

So how does one bring an open relationship up to their religious girlfriend who's stated she doesn't want to in the past but has seemingly hinted that she might?
 
I may have given the wrong impression. Things aren't great now, but they were really good before we moved in together. She's also had a rough couple years, and by her estimation isn't quite acting herself yet... so I'm not sure we'd be miserable together. I'm just not happy now and need time to see things change... but she doesn't want to give me that time because she wants to have kids soon.

Not to say that you're wrong... but I think I am interested in an open relationship and it might help us out as well.
 
I think I am interested in an open relationship and it might help us out as well.

Having an open relationship does not fix problems in an existing relationship. The relationship MUST be solidly grounded, happy, and healthy BEFORE opening it up. Otherwise, you'd just be heading toward disaster. That fact cannot be stressed enough. It does sound like you two are not compatible at present, and I don't think adding other people while hanging onto something that isn't working would help. Look at and resolve what's wrong now without looking elsewhere. You need to give this relationship time to be working really well before even remotely considering poly.
 
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What's wrong with the approach of total honesty, just laying all your feelings on the table and letting her decide if she can handle it? If you're not able to do that, you're not ready for kids OR poly, both of which will test your relationship and your combustion skills to the limit.
 
Oh man, I could edit that last post so it says "comunication skills" like I meant it to, but "combustion skills" is way too funny to change. Thanks, autocorrect!
 
I thought it was maybe slang for something... heh.

There's nothing wrong with honesty. I'm really trying to figure out the best way to present the idea. Like I said, I mentioned once shortly before we moved in that I worried about missing out on other women... though I guess I've avoided bringing it up since. I don't want her to think it's because she's not good enough...
 
The problem: She wants to start trying for kids in less than a year.

If you two are not stable, do you really want to rush into having kids together? I don't have kids of my own yet, but I have talked to several people who thought having kids would fix and solidify their relationship. They still split up/got divorced.

So for me, kids means:
1) No chance at sleeping with other women ever, for the rest of my life. (Along with less opportunity for travel, exploration, trying different cities to live in.)

2) I might end up "chained" to a woman who makes me miserable if things don't improve.

1) I disagree with this. Maybe you can work that out with her if she is receptive to your ideas. It sounds like she is at least willing to discuss the topic. As far as less opportunity for travel, etc., people make it happen. Yeah, it can be more difficult and expensive, but if it's important to you, you can find a way.

2) Yep. If I were in your position, I would think long and hard about this. That chain will be attached for 2 decades at least. After that, you will start to get some freedom.

So last night when she tells me I just need to tell her how we can fix this, and that she'd do _anything_ to make me happy, it was all I could think about. I just needed to say that I'd be ready for kids if things worked better between us.

When I hear someone say that they would do anything to make me happy or that I just need to say such-and-such to make things better, my hair stands up, my spidey sense starts tingling, and I start eyeballing the door/window, whatever to make an escape. (I am happily married and have been with the same woman for 7 years, btw.)
In my experience, the girls I dated that used lines like this were just being manipulative and I stuck around thinking it would work out and it only prolonged the unfortunate experience. I can't say I would change it though, because I feel I learned from it in the long run.

If you are not ready for kids now, you are simply not ready for kids. Telling her you would be ready for kids if things were better between the two of you seems like kidding yourself for a short term gain. How long should things be good before you start trying to have kids?
Putting the pressure on for making babies sounds like a bad idea if things are not going really well. I am in my early 30s and I wanted to have kids in my early 20s. Well, I didn't get what I wanted. Shucks. I am still alive and happy. My wife and I are specifically choosing not to have kids at this time because we don't feel we are ready yet... for various reasons. Sometimes I want to and she doesn't, Sometimes it's the other way around. We talk about it, but then decide, "Nah, let's wait a bit more." I'd love to have kids while I am a bit younger, but it may not be in the cards for me. It may not be in the cards for your girlfriend either.

Increased Difficulty: She's Catholic. Not Catholic enough to wait until marriage, but I think an open relationship would be more of a problem for her belief system.

Both my wife and I were raised Catholic and we are seriously considering polyamory. After a lot of mulling and idea sorting, I brought some of my ideas to her and she was understanding of it all. Besides, Catholics are all about taking things in moderation. Take each other in moderation and start another relationship in moderation. Woot!

ID2: She's specifically said in the past that she would not want an open relationship.

I may be nitpicking here, but an open relationship is different than a poly relationship, no? I don't think I would like to see my wife running around with just whomever, should she decide to experience other men. We have talked about her having another committed partner and I feel much better about that. She feels the same way with the tables turned.

So how does one bring an open relationship up to their religious girlfriend who's stated she doesn't want to in the past but has seemingly hinted that she might?

It sounds like she has brought it up a few times. Maybe test the waters a bit more by hinting at it and then carefully start moving into headier aspects of the topic. It all depends on how well you know each other. Will she blow a gasket if you start talking about this, will she accept what you have to say and think about it, or will she do something else?

My $0.92.
 
If you two are not stable, do you really want to rush into having kids together?

I'm not, no. :p

She's a few years older than me though. The biological clock is ticking pretty loudly for her... she's convinced she has to start within a year or miss her chance.

When I hear someone say that they would do anything to make me happy or that I just need to say such-and-such to make things better, my hair stands up, my spidey sense starts tingling, and I start eyeballing the door/window, whatever to make an escape. (I am happily married and have been with the same woman for 7 years, btw.)
In my experience, the girls I dated that used lines like this were just being manipulative and I stuck around thinking it would work out and it only prolonged the unfortunate experience. I can't say I would change it though, because I feel I learned from it in the long run.

As a general rule I don't think she's manipulative. If anything I think it's hard for us both to separate... but I could be wrong.

If you are not ready for kids now, you are simply not ready for kids. Telling her you would be ready for kids if things were better between the two of you seems like kidding yourself for a short term gain. How long should things be good before you start trying to have kids?

I don't want to raise kids in the situation the way it is now. We're fighting on a weekly basis, and sometimes I feel like we're adversarial with each other. Worse yet I think our flaws are similar and we feed into each others' weaknesses. BUT, she's gone through some stuff in the last couple years and has been depressed but coming out of it. So I keep thinking things will change/improve. We were really getting along great before moving in together or I wouldn't have done it...


Both my wife and I were raised Catholic and we are seriously considering polyamory. After a lot of mulling and idea sorting, I brought some of my ideas to her and she was understanding of it all. Besides, Catholics are all about taking things in moderation. Take each other in moderation and start another relationship in moderation. Woot!

Good to know, and congrats! :)


I may be nitpicking here, but an open relationship is different than a poly relationship, no? I don't think I would like to see my wife running around with just whomever, should she decide to experience other men. We have talked about her having another committed partner and I feel much better about that. She feels the same way with the tables turned.

I don't know if there is a difference... but I think I'd want something similar to what you describe. I don't think she's at all the one-night-stand type of girl, and I'm not sure I could manage that either really.

Ideally I'd just be able to date some women I find interesting without looking for a permanent relationship. Basically, what I should have done when I was 20 but I have a girlfriend or wife to come home to.


It sounds like she has brought it up a few times. Maybe test the waters a bit more by hinting at it and then carefully start moving into headier aspects of the topic. It all depends on how well you know each other. Will she blow a gasket if you start talking about this, will she accept what you have to say and think about it, or will she do something else?

My $0.92.

But how do I hint?


On the bringing it up part... the other night we went to an art gallery event. We were sitting in a corner and I went to get us something. When I came back my gf tells me this other couple was dancing in front of her doing "bad things" and the guy kept checking her out. She thought maybe they "thought she would be into sharing" or something, but seemed to sound like obviously she wouldn't. So really... not sure. Whenever she brings it up directly she just says she wouldn't...
 
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So... new development. She asked me point blank tonight if I wanted to see other people. I tried to ignore the question, then dodge it by saying "not right now" meaning that I was thinking through it for possible future discussion... but she pressed forward with it. (I really need to stop watching Desperate Housewives with her...)



Here's what she envisions:

We schedule two nights a week where we are not home, to avoid having to explain when we're going on a date

We can't have sleepovers with anyone else

We set a time limit on how long this goes for

We either continue having sex with each other OR have sex with our dates... but not both

I feel like that complicates things more than just going with a full poly relationship, right? Not having sex in a relationship is a bad thing from everything I've ever heard... yet dating seems like it would naturally lead to sex at some point. She's frequently on record as saying the only way to avoid cheating is to avoid being in situations in which it could happen... so we'd pretty much have to stop having sex with each other and fulfill all those needs outside our relationship.

I know a big part of it is her being worried about diseases. I mentioned we could just always use condoms but she's afraid of getting HPV even with condom use...

So what do you guys think? It seems like pseudo-poly and like it's only going to make our relationship worse. (And yes, I'm aware you all recommended against it anyway and I brought that up too... but she's aware of my lack of experience and doesn't think I'll ever be able to settle in without seeing what's out there.)

I don't want to give up sex or risk losing my gf...
 
We're fighting on a weekly basis, and sometimes I feel like we're adversarial with each other. Worse yet I think our flaws are similar and we feed into each others' weaknesses.
This is what has me worried. It sounds like the relationship is important to both of you, and that you love each other. But, sometimes people just aren't compatible. In my opinion, relationships should bring you joy, happiness, growth, and other positive things. If you really feed into each other's weaknesses, it may be that your relationship makes you both less happy. And maybe you aren't the best people to help each other grow, but rather your dynamic reinforces the negative aspects of your selves. :(

About the pseudo-poly approach: I agree that it is very likely to only make your relationship worse.
 
Do you and the gf live together?

Yes, we do.

@Rory: We started seeing a therapist to try and work out our issues... but yes, that's a big worry for me too. One of the reasons I hadn't brought up poly even before now is that I was worried things just weren't working.


In some ways things seem to be getting better, but it's still hard to tell.
 
It seems to me that you two need to work on your relationship first. This arrangement just seems like a transitional thing to getting out of your relationship. I think I would not even attempt dating others until you are fully connected again. If that is possible if not then I would say you are done. That doesn't mean you can't bring it up later and now that its a known, you can suggest that you work on that later. Right now there seems to be more work for the two of you to do.
 
I think she's hoping that you're going to "get it out of your system" and then settle down with her. If that isn't going to happen you need to let her know that now. All I see happeing at the moment is that you're delaying the inevitablity that the 2 of you are going to split up.
 
Codependent red flags

I got out of a very codependent relationship recently. So I am speaking on this from a place of familiarity and compassion. There are a few things that you have said that hints that your relationship is codependent.

So last night when she tells me I just need to tell her how we can fix this, and that she'd do _anything_ to make me happy, it was all I could think about. I just needed to say that I'd be ready for kids if things worked better between us.

As a general rule I don't think she's manipulative. If anything I think it's hard for us both to separate... but I could be wrong.

This just does not sound healthy to me. I think that you are grasping at straws, trying to find a way to save this relationship. I don't blame you at all. I did the same thing. I kept trying to figure out a way to make it work. Leaving was probably the hardest thing I ever did in my life. I felt terrible, and I felt terrible that he felt terrible. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. I thought I would be a ball of icky emotions forever.

But I wasn't. I'm living independently now and am quite happy. I'm starting to examine all my codependence issues in therapy and in Codependents Anonymous. Although I still have a lot of work to do, I haven't felt this self-empowered, self-sufficient, and FREE ever in my life. It was probably the best decision I ever made, although it was so hard at the time.

People on this board are telling you, "do not get into poly when you have problems in your existing relationship." I feel like you are ignoring those people because it's not what you want to hear. This is more than just the words of a few people, this is practically Polyamory 101. There are several bits of wisdom that are repeated so often in the poly community that it could be a handbook for newbs. This is one of them. Here are more.

You say that the relationship was great before you lived together, but if you two can't live together, then how can you expect to start a family together? You say that she has had a rough couple of years, but if she is still having a rough time, then now is not the time to start a family.

If she is trying to tie you to something that you aren't willing to be tied to, and she is putting a timeline on it, then the kinder thing to do may be to end it now. Rather than hem and haw for a year or two while she keeps getting older (and surely more stressed out about the relationship). Or worse yet, having kids and then splitting up!

I just think that you want to focus on the poly question because you are avoiding the real issues in your relationship.
 
two can't live together, then how can you expect to start a family together?

That's what I keep saying, but she says that it's normal for a couple to have problems when they first move in together. I think that's true, but weekly fighting (or even week-long fights) seems like more than normal adjustment problems. Especially when it lasts for 3 months...

You say that she has had a rough couple of years, but if she is still having a rough time, then now is not the time to start a family.

I agree. But biological clock and all...

If she is trying to tie you to something that you aren't willing to be tied to, and she is putting a timeline on it, then the kinder thing to do may be to end it now. Rather than hem and haw for a year or two while she keeps getting older (and surely more stressed out about the relationship). Or worse yet, having kids and then splitting up!

I want kids. I'm just not sure I want them next year. BUT, here's where the poly thing is coming in: If I had kids next year, and could still sleep with a few other women I'd be more comfortable with it.

I just think that you want to focus on the poly question because you are avoiding the real issues in your relationship.


No, I think I mentioned we are in therapy to deal with the "real issues." But I would consider my... hmm... fear? of never getting to know anyone else one of our real problems. The options on that are: Poly relationship until I calm down, or I convince myself that there's no reason to ever want to sleep with anyone else.

So I see this as one of the real problems I am trying to work through. I can't find the quote, but in "Polyamory in the 21st Century" says something to the effect of "a person can't be truly ready for a monogamous relationship until they've experienced other relationships." Maybe I saw that somewhere else?

Anyway, that seemed to hit home for me.



For the record, though, we talked the other night and I told her we're not doing any form of "seeing other people" until we've worked out our other problems. I also told her I'm reading a book on polyamory and asked her to read it with me... which was NOT an idea she was fond of. She eventually accepted though, after realizing there were books I had read when she requested. She seems pretty adamant that she would never accept this lifestyle though... so I still need to figure out if it's even what I really want, and then it might have to be without her. I am hoping the book helps her see it in a better light though...
 
No, I think I mentioned we are in therapy to deal with the "real issues." But I would consider my... hmm... fear? of never getting to know anyone else one of our real problems. The options on that are: Poly relationship until I calm down, or I convince myself that there's no reason to ever want to sleep with anyone else.

That is part of the problem that I see here. She wants something that will tie you to her for life, and she has a deadline. You want to try poly and she doesn't seem too keen on it.

What you have to keep in mind that there is nothing that *you* can do to "convince" her to be poly. Have her read about it, and talk through it.

I'm glad you are in therapy but therapy takes time. Even without the other problems in your relationship, you guys could easily spend a year just sorting through this poly question. This deadline just doesn't seem realistic to me. I don't think that either of you are willing to really be honest with yourselves about how long it will take to sort through all of this.

For the record, though, we talked the other night and I told her we're not doing any form of "seeing other people" until we've worked out our other problems. I also told her I'm reading a book on polyamory and asked her to read it with me... which was NOT an idea she was fond of. She eventually accepted though, after realizing there were books I had read when she requested. She seems pretty adamant that she would never accept this lifestyle though... so I still need to figure out if it's even what I really want, and then it might have to be without her.

Yup, you have some self-inventory to do too. I think that you are on the right path.

I am hoping the book helps her see it in a better light though...

All you can do right now is wait and see. I would just be wary of any decisions that she makes in a break-up situation. The comment that she made that she would do anything to save the relationship is what concerns me. If she flips from "no" to "okay we can try it with these rules" in the middle of a break-up, just be aware that she may be compromising on something that she really can't maintain in the long term.

Which is why it's so dangerous to have a kid with her now. Even if she says yes, it may be motivated by codependence. My ex promised all sorts of things when we were splitting up which I know he would not be able to give me. If her "yes" isn't an HONEST "yes" then she won't be able to do poly for long.
 
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