Clock is Ticking

Well, ambivulous, you certainly make a good case for keeping your perspective the way it is and for keeping yourself locked into sadness because someone else won't understand you or be what you need.

I'm perceiving significant resonance between what HFA is saying here and what Charles Eisenstein is saying here: http://charleseisenstein.net/project/a-pattern-to-the-maze/ , especially around minute 3:44 forward -- regards the attempt to solve school violence by increasing security measures (which seems a perfectly 'logical' response, yet which makes matters worse.

The great trick is that, very often, what we most need to bring to our life situations is ... well, less. Less trying. Less manipulation. Less effort. Less doing ... and more of other things like trust, faith, surrender, acceptance, ... even joy. Unfounded (in some sense) joy, joy as a path to ... well, more joy. We're so steeped in the notion that we must act on what we "know" that our ability to respond effectively is hampered.

There is an intuitive way forward which we can learn, but it isn't the sort of "learning" which is familiar to most of us, as we live in a culture which tries to "fix" everything via methods of control. And control is failing to work for us.
 
Fantastic video, River. I really enjoyed it.

I'm also very much in agreement with the comments made by HFA. I have noticed that the same message comes through over and over again in different areas of my life.

The truth that HFA spoke of is one I see repeated often among dog trainers that I like. Rather than seeking stronger and stronger means of controlling dogs so that they behave in ways that people like, give up control. Take less controlling measures and spend more time instead looking at the dog, seeking to understand what they may need from the world and what it might be that they get from doing things that the people in their life dislike and avoiding doing things that the people would prefer them to do.

Then it is easier to look at how can routines be changed so that it is possible for things to go well for both sides?

Also - easier to look for ways to have more fun together. What can be done to bring more playfulness and joy into the relationship?

The thing is that letting go of the focus on what the other is doing that is causing problems is really frightening. I certainly find it much easier to look at what somebody else is doing wrong and look for ways to fix them than I do to look at them as a person and at myself and figure out a different way of going about things.

Every time I've done it. Every time I've stopped and considered and found a new way, it's been useful and has resulted in stronger, more joy filled relationships.

I've come to this realisation through dog training, HFA has taken a different path, as has the guy in the video River posted. I've heard echos of this in political anarchist writings, in neuroscience, in educational theory.

It's at the heart of I.T. work. Computers do exactly what you tell them to do and so if something isn't working it is down to the programmer to look at things, to review their understanding and to find another way. You can't urge a computer to try harder, to see how their behaviour impacts on you and to change it. It is a hard truth that they simply don't care. It is always down to the programmer to figure out.

There are echos of HFA's words everywhere and I do think they are worth listening to.

IP
 
There are echos of HFA's words everywhere and I do think they are worth listening to.
IP

I agree about those "echos". You'll especially find this sort of perspective in Classical Taoist literature, e.g., Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tsu -- both of whom prefer minimalism in terms of intervention and attempts to control things.

See:

Wu wei
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

and, relatedly...

The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety
by Alan W. Watts
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/551520.The_Wisdom_of_Insecurity
 
Ambivulous, I understand why you're here and you seem to be sincere in your quest to form relationships that are fulfilling all around. GreenAcres and nycindie offer much warranted caveats, judging from what you're telling us about your marriage right now. I want to add to their experienced voices that a marriage indeed can be "saved" by opening to poly, but only if there is already organic, ongoing self-reflection and generosity of spirit of both spouses. Busyness can't be held up as a road block to communication. I also have a house, own a business and have kids - heck, one is even autistic. Never a shortage of "busy" around here, but there is always time for connection. No marriage is perfect, nor should it be - but every relationship is at heart a reflection of what's inside us. I find in my own life that every fear, trepidation, difficulty and road block that I so long to extricate in the other person is the very thing that is tripping me up. We always orbit up with people who perfectly reflect what's going on inside. That's why just finding another partner doesn't work in the long run and that's why just going to your wife and introducing poly isn't going to solve the intimacy issue. Yes, the initial distraction of a new person is heavenly and seems to fix everything at first, but when the months roll on, we find ourselves sitting with all of the unresolved issues that still live in our heart. Whether you choose to work with a therapist or take a more spiritual approach, you need to change you in order to see change in your relationships.

I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I'm pretty impressed and delighed by--and grateful for--the soulful wisdom and couragous honesty of HFA in these fora.
 
Having now basically read all of the posts in this thread, I must say that Ambivulous does seem to have patiently endured a lot, if we take him at his word.

The important thing to keep in mind (and heart) here is that there is no benefit, or need, to make anyone the "bad guy" in this situation. Doing so can only cause harm.

HFA's points are vaild, useful, valuable... even reliable. But it is pretty clear, as well, that Ambivulous has been long enduring some unmet needs for both physical and emotional intimacy -- including a need for direct and honest, clear communication.

I think some sort of a snythesis of HFA's perspective with those other perspectives which deeply sympathise with Ambivulous's long enduring patience / unmet needs is what is called for. Pushing, forcing, manipulating... all of this needs to be taken off the table. Left off the table. Warmth and compassion, kindness and tenderness are needed on all sides. But neither should Ambivulous be expected to unendiingly, patiently endure.... A change is clearly needed. And it can't take forever to happen.

What remains unclear is what that change might be -- or how it might come about.
 
HFA's points are vaild, useful, valuable... even reliable.

Pushing, forcing, manipulating... all of this needs to be taken off the table. Left off the table. Warmth and compassion, kindness and tenderness are needed on all sides.
Thank you for that comment ... I agree. HFA does have valid points and I am in no way trying to push or force anything. If you knew me, you'd realize that is the furthest from my personality and most likely why I'm in the situation I'm in (being accommodating, patient, and not as good a communicator as I'd like to be). And I do want to improve, thus my going to therapy. It helps, and perhaps a point I can address is how to lose the resentment ... and how NOT to base my happiness upon how I hope my wife will respond.
 
Ambivulous -

My impression from what you've written is that you'd like to explore or expand beyond the comfortable / familiar "edge" of communication between you and your wife, but that she thinks/feels she's just too busy to do so. Is this right?
 
But neither should Ambivulous be expected to unendiingly, patiently endure.... A change is clearly needed. And it can't take forever to happen.

Absolutely. Nobody should be expected to endure a bad situation indefinitely. Especially when it comes to enduring it in a personal relationship with another human adult who is capable of making their own decisions and their own way in the world.

It is very important to see that nobody is the bad guy in this. Ambivulous and his wife have not set out to get into a situation where there is such difficulty between them.
 
There is no such thing as a good guy or a bad guy in any relationship. To dismiss someone we're drawn to as "bad news" is to miss an opportunity to quietly look within, come to a better understanding of ourselves and lighten the load that we carry through life in general. But no matter, when we turn away and reduce another to "toxic" or "dysfunctional" or "uncommunicative," another one comes along wearing a similar face, holding a similar invitation for us to find our own source of well being. Relationships are fluid, never set in stone and always the result of what we're choosing to focus upon in the other person and in ourselves.
 
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My impression from what you've written is that you'd like to explore or expand beyond the comfortable / familiar "edge" of communication between you and your wife, but that she thinks/feels she's just too busy to do so. Is this right?
Yes, too busy, too tired, or too self conscious ... particularly as we talk about the lack of sex. Her most recent retort has been she'd like to focus on other personal improvements (getting some overdue dental work done, getting into better physical shape, catching up on regular + ob/gyn doctor visits, etc.). Which I am happy about and am supporting.

At the same time, I'm reading "Sex at Dawn", and even sharing some of it with her [though I don't think she grasps the point of it, yet]. When I'm done, I'll pass it to her and suggest she read at least some parts which I find really compelling. I kind of think she won't be all that surprised at the concept, but practically speaking I could see it being a huge monkey wrench in her view of our relationship and family.
 
Yes, too busy, too tired, or too self conscious ... particularly as we talk about the lack of sex. Her most recent retort has been she'd like to focus on other personal improvements (getting some overdue dental work done, getting into better physical shape, catching up on regular + ob/gyn doctor visits, etc.). Which I am happy about and am supporting.

At the same time, I'm reading "Sex at Dawn", and even sharing some of it with her [though I don't think she grasps the point of it, yet]. When I'm done, I'll pass it to her and suggest she read at least some parts which I find really compelling. I kind of think she won't be all that surprised at the concept, but practically speaking I could see it being a huge monkey wrench in her view of our relationship and family.

My sense of you, Ambivulous, is that you are somewhat lonely, and that you've been somewhat lonely in this way for a long time. You do not seem to be acutely lonely so much as chronically lonely. You seem to have been patiently enduring this lonliness.

Am I correct, so far?
 
My sense of you, Ambivulous, is that you are somewhat lonely, and that you've been somewhat lonely in this way for a long time. You do not seem to be acutely lonely so much as chronically lonely. You seem to have been patiently enduring this lonliness. Am I correct, so far?
Uh, well, I wouldn't say I'm lonely. On the other hand, I am by no means the kind of person who finds social situations easy to navigate. I had a former girlfriend who said I wasn't shy, but maybe a little aloof. I'm sure a Freudian analysis could find all sorts of causes in my childhood with a fair amount a strife and conflict with my three older siblings (and their strife with my parents) - but nothing abusive or excessive, just formative.

Anyway, I would say that like what happens in a lot of relationships, habitual ruts tend to define the relationship instead of needs, feelings or open communication. We've let those ruts run a bit too deep, and it's tough to get out of them. I've finally decided modest measures are inadequate and I had to be more direct and suggest professional help. (And, incidentally, bearing it all - albeit anonymously - here on this forum and asking for advice. And getting lots of good input :) .)
 
Update: Opening Up

So, I thought I'd take some time to give an update to my situation since this past summer. I like to call it awesomely complicated (my wife, L, maybe would call it something else ;) ). Anyway, I've been on a few dates with two different people now, and some chatting with a third, all of whom identify as non-monogamous. My wife, L, knows about these chats and dates, though she doesn't know how much I am romantically involved (particularly with one woman). I guess she might suspect something more, but she doesn't know the more juicy details (lots of kissing and romantic machinations). I was in therapy (alone) today and was encouraged to be more open about it; things have happened so fast and I'm I'm trying to be more gradual with my wife, who still feels rather monogamous, it just hasn't been easy to come out with that. Plus, we're only just getting better about talking about all this. In parallel, we're working on our own relationship and trying to be more intimate, communicative, and sexual. And, thankfully, it has been working and L and I are actually having some improved experiences and connection. I think part of it is that even in the midst of poly dating I made an extra effort to make sure L knows I love her, take her on dates, and plan some special nights with her ... and I think that has really helped.

I'd like to take it to the next level (sex) and L knows that I want to do that (I've explained these poly dates as being more or less like regular dating, just for people who can think outside a mono box). But, she's uncomfortable with it, L's trying to say it shouldn't matter, but she feels that sex = marriage, so if I am having sex with someone else, I must want to abandon our marriage. There is also a strong feeling of failure, like if she had paid more attention to me, or been more sexual or [fill in the blank], I wouldn't be doing this. I don't think that's true ... I just finally decided to stand up for my needs even if it makes L feel uncomfortable. I didn't want to live asexually (as it was, or even if things improve, less sexual than I'd like) any more and I really like the idea of dating and being involved with other women on a more romantic level.

Anyway - that's my quick update. I guess it might be interesting to hear how other people have dealt with a monogamist and if there were ways to accommodate both sides without forcing a split. At this point I'm pretty certain we'll make it out as a couple, but it's not a sure thing ... and perhaps it will still take many more months before L would accept my having sex with someone else.
 
Adam, my husband, hasn't expressed any interest in wanting to be with anyone else since we got together. I'm still interested in maintaining and fostering my fwb relationships as almost all of them stem from before I met Adam. They function at varying degrees of contact and physicality. Admittedly, I don't date as such. But I keep telling Adam, that I want to walk hand in hand with him through the rest of this life, to grow old with him in a relationship that we chose a wee while ago to turn into a marriage. I think my reiteration of this in these different ways alleviates any concerns he has about any physical intimacy I might share with others, already knowing that I'm emotionally intimate with them.

So, yes, taking your wife out on dates too and making the extra effort to show through your behaviours that you are 100% committed to your marriage now and with the intention of it being the lifelong commitment you originally made, are, imo, vitally important aspects of "successful poly" or being a great hinge. Keep letting her know that you aren't just starting to date as an exit strategy from your marriage.

Careful not to *condemn* the "mono box thinking" if this is where she's at. Now is not the time to be criticising her, even indirectly.

She's bound to have noticed your stepping up as an attentive husband. She might wonder why you need others since you guys are reconnecting or have it somewhere in mind that your dating is a temporary thing and that at some point in the future you'll tell her you want to live happily ever after with just her and that poly was a just a phase you went through. Of course, since you can't truly predict the future, this might be true, so don't pooh pooh the notion if you notice her dialogue leaning this way.

Also, here's a vid that I found very useful.
 
Thanks for those comments, Evie.

I told my wife yesterday that romantic feelings and kissing has happened. She wasn't happy (even though she kind of suspected it), she was pissed. Her vision of our relationship is transforming dramatically. And, unlike me where I've searched and cultivated these connections, dates, and feelings over many months; this situation is being thrust upon her rather suddenly and dramatically. She's only really known about my behavior for about a month - though we've talked a lot about non-monogamy for a few months prior to that. Also, she doesn't have any control over it AND she doesn't have anyone she can talk to about it. So, I totally understand her feelings.

As much as I don't want to hear it, I'm pretty sure I need to both slow down in poly dating AND recognize that I have screwed up, and apologize :( .
 
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