Vent/Newbie Advice

LloydN

New member
First off, this is my first post. I've been interested in Poly for awhile and want to genuinely try it... unfortunately, I've made many (many, many) classic mistakes and now have to clean up the mess. I've read ethical slut, listen to poly weekly, etc... but translating book knowledge into real world experience can be tough.

I'm now trying to learn from all of you. Here is my timeline. you can skip the first half and just insert [trying to move from an affair to poly] and totally get where I'm at.

I know this is not a true poly experience since deception is involved. Is our little "triad" doomed?

Thanks!!

1) It was 2011. I had been married for 12 years. Had cheated a few times and was feeling trapped in my marriage (I grew up evangelical and didn't have sex until I was married at 22. I've struggled ever since.) My therapist suggested a separation, but I was too scared to do that.

2) In November 2011, I started a new project and met Beth. She and I grew up similarly evangelical and were both in the process of deconstructing it. Beth was in a partnership with Mark.

3) Over the next 6 months, Beth and I developed an amazing rapport. We had great chemistry. I started to develop a crush. We began talking about our curiosity around polyamory.

4) In May 2012, Beth and Mark got engaged. I was a bit sad, but supportive.

5) In June 2012, Beth and I went on a 6 week road trip for the project. I came on to her. Initially she pushed back, but we kept flirting with each other. Eventually we started an affair. By the end of the trip, she admitted she loved me. I returned the sentiment.

6) When we got home, we continued the affair. We started trying to figure out a way if we could introduce poly to our respective partners.

7) In February 2013, my relationship with my wife had gotten worse. We decided to go to counseling. I told her I wanted to open the relationship. She obviously wasn't game (and was suspicious of Beth and I.) Our therapist suggested a separation. I was still too scared to take the option.

8) Beth and Mark started to talk about poly. He was receptive and they started negotiating. He still didn't know about me (although he had his suspicions.)

9) Beth and I during this time both admitted that we were amazing lovers and have never experienced a relationship like this that worked on so many levels.

10) In May 2013, I finally asked for a separation from my wife. I told her that I wanted to be poly with Beth. She was obviously hurt. Around the same time, Beth told Mark about me and said she didn't want to be married. Mark was shocked, but was willing to work through it. He was committed to the process and they called off the wedding. Mark asked if we were having an affair, Beth said it was an emotional affair, but we hadn't had sex yet (untrue.) Mark had some anger at me, but understood how our relationship developed and was willing to work through all that.

11) Beth, Mark, and I started the process of trying to become poly. Beth and I "officially" started fucking. Mark started looking for other relationships. I had a few experiences myself with other women. All was going mostly well. Except I had isolated myself from most of my community. I didn't have any support. I was struggling with being alone since Beth and Mark lived with each other. And Beth, Mark, and I hadn't sat down and had a proper negotiation. I was waiting on Beth to talk to Mark and negotiate with him. She kept telling me he's slow but that we'll get to the place where we can be anchors to each other.

12) In October 2013, Beth and Mark decided to get married. She framed it as a good thing for their families, and a better legal arrangement... but that it wouldn't change anything about our Triad. I was initially supportive because I was still married to my wife (we still haven't worked out if we're going to be financial partners or divorced or what.) I also was using it as an "I told you so" to those in my community that I can do poly. Ugh, I was being stupid.

13) In November, I started freaking out. Beth and Mark's wedding was a few weeks out. They were about to have their Bachelor/Bachlorette parties. I started realizing I was ignoring that little voice in my head that something was off. I secretly wanted to marry Beth, I was angry that Beth and Mark were getting married before we had figured out our Triad. I told Beth, in a moment of weakness, that I would have divorced my wife. Beth was pissed that I waited to tell her this. And said she couldn't hurt Mark again. She also said that we would work it out, and that she would love to have a commitment ceremony with me someday.

14) This month I celebrated my 14 year anniversary. My wife and I had a lovely meal and both decided the relationship was over.

15) Beth and Mark were married last week. I did my best to be supportive of both of them. But a few days later, I realized I was ignoring my voice, my desires, my needs. I realized I needed an anchor, someone whose parents can know me. I also realized that we all weren't on the same page. Mark doesn't know the full nature of my and Beth's relationship. They also didn't know what I really wanted. And now we're in this passive aggressive, blaming, arguing cycle.

16) I think Beth needs to disclose to Mark that we were fucking the whole time. He needs to know what we mean to each other if we can even attempt to have a good poly negotiation. Beth says she will go to her grave before Mark knows about the physical affair. Is right for me to push her to do this? Should I just get out of this mess?
 
While I get that honesty is much preferred to deception, I don't think you are pushing Beth to divulge the nature of your early relationship to Mark out of some sense of nobility; it sounds like you want to fuck up her relationship with Mark. That is NOT cool! How do you think she is going to feel if she loses Mark? Happy? Do you really think that would be good for your relationship? Do you think she is going to joyfully want to marry you after that?

It sounds as if you do not feel you can comfortably be poly AND participate in family / community events. You wouldn't be the first person to find this challenging. You wouldn't be the first person to decide he functions better in monogamy. I would say, your timing in regard to Beth sucks. And I would say efforts on your part to harm her relationship with Mark are terribly unkind. Unkind to Beth, and evn more so to Mark - who did his best to adapt to the situation you and Beth created behind his back.
 
Just get out and have other polyamorous relationships. Telling Mark will only cause more pain. Maybe, I'm time, you can find a "primary" style relationship and Beth and Mark will decide poly work for them too and turn you and Beth can have a "secondary" style relationship. Maybe Beth will decide to be with you in a polyamorous relationship and sacrifice Mark in order to do so. Maybe Beth will stay with Mark in a monogamous marriage and you'll shift to a loving friendship with her that doesn't cross their monogamous boundaries but allows you to be in her life for the long term.

You can keep those scenarios as real possibilities by making sure you don't let this get ugly and to the point where it isn't healthy to interact on any level
 
Btw... You are not in a triad you are in a vee relationship.

Triad means you have a relationship with Mark too.

Now to the basis of your post. You sound like you just want to ruin Beths relationship with Mark out of jealousy. Not cool dude.
 
To decide to grow some emotional courage and become firm of purpose rather than flibbly wibbly and just wibbling along? That is only something YOU can choose for yourself. Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one.

This may be hard to hear. But I mean this kindly ok? :eek:

  • But if you want to start playing like Star Wars Jedi with some kind of personal code of conduct you make for you, choose to start to play like Jedi. Just do it. Even if it feels ugh at first. Grow better at your disclosure and honesty skills. Expect things from yourself.
  • If you want to carry on with all kinds of Muppet show shenanigans? Well,choose to carry on then. But don't be surprised there's flying chickens and thrown fish and shenanigans backstage.

So... choose your next choice.

You have been making a mess of your relationships. You have now learned that (what you choose to do) AND (what you choose to not do) can ripple across your whole polymath / family math network. Here you often chose to not be honest and up front. It did not seem to serve you well since it led to a domino effect of new problems.

Honestly? In your shoes? I'd let Beth and Mark go.

Bottom line?

At this point in time you want to come clean and start living your life in more authentic, honest ways. (I am going to assume positive intent on your part, and not like you are trying to make Mark's life hell just because you suffer jealousy that he is the husband now for Beth and not you in that position.)

Beth is not on board for honesty. So even if it hurts? End it with her. You are correct. A polyship founded on lies of omission and hidden affairs is not as healthy as it could be and is not starting out on strong foundations.

You could stop cheating with her and just end it. Could stop eroding your mental, emotional and spiritual health by continuing to participate in a cheating affair that continues lies.

  • End it with Beth. You could tell Mark WHY you are ending it.
  • End it with Beth. You could tell him you are ending it. And end it without explaining why.

The ending of it is what helps YOU get back on the healthier path. If you do not have the internal resources at this time to worry about all players' healths? Get just YOU out then so YOU can be in a healthier place in time. Staying here is not healthy for YOU. Worry about YOUR health. Strike out on your own and be ok doing that.

Stop allowing yourself to be distracted with the new (your feelings for Beth). Focus on tending to your own needs.
  • You were feeling trapped in your marriage. Solution -- articulate and work to change the marriage/end the marriage.
  • You have isolated self from most of your community. Solution -- Articulate and start engaging with your community in appropriate ways.
  • You didn't have any support. Solution -- Articulate and keep working with your counselor and start making more friends you can lean on in times of trouble. Let them lean on you when it is their time of trouble.
  • You were struggling with living/being alone. Solution -- learn to be ok on your own, on your own two feet. Maybe having married at 22 years old you never learned this. Now is opportunity.
  • Your GF wants to continue the cheating affair and keep Mark in the dark. You don't seem happy being the affair man. Solution: She could stop being your GF because you choose to break up with her. You do not CONTINUE being the affair man and pile NEW crap on the timeline.
  • You seem unhappy about past choices on the timeline-- Making apology and asking for forgiveness for crap that already happened could be treated separately. Solution: Stop ADDING new crap on. Break up with Beth and Mark. Give yourself time to heal. Work with counselor. Then decide what you want to do about shoveling OLD crap. Don't kid yourself that you want to get back with Beth. But you could apologize to all for your part in the shenanigans when you are ready to own it.

If you want to polyship in future, you could work on making your needs known up front and honestly from the start.Could learn to get over your fearfulness of disclosure. Because that is an important interpersonal skill.

Had you told wife you wanted to polyship at the start, even if it led to breaking up because she does not want to polyship? It could have been dealt with before hand CLEANLY, with all parties being respectful and respected. Including you. Not all this stuff in a crazy pile up.

In choosing to serve "fear" and "my own comfort level" rather than a higher value like "respect me and respect others by being honest in my communication" even if it moved you outside your comfort zone... you ended up choosing less than self-respecting toward yourself and less respectful behavior toward others. You have reaped all kinds of shenanigans and heartache as a result. Choosing the lower value did not seem serve you well.

Could try to choose your higher value next time even if it feels uncomfortable or scary. Growth happens at the edges of the comfort zone.

And here is new opportunity to choose anew! A new day!

So... Jedi or Muppet kind of day? Your day. You get to choose.

Choose well. Then play ball. See how it serves you. Hopefully it serves you better.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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Thanks everyone.. you are right, I don't want to fuck up their relationship, its not cool. We got ourselves in a sticky corner and now we have to figure out how to move on, nobly.

I actually suggested to beth we end it, or I go find another partner that will meet my needs. She wouldn't accept that. She says she needs both of us, that Mark and I together fill her relationship needs and access different parts of her.

But I know I need to just decide what it is I want. If this doesn't work for me, I need to be an adult and say so and work on finding what I need.

Shitty timing. I'm learning. Trying to be a Jedi. WOrk on my honesty. First step, learn what I want.

Thanks for kicking me in the ass!
 
I actually suggested to beth we end it, or I go find another partner that will meet my needs. She wouldn't accept that. She says she needs both of us, that Mark and I together fill her relationship needs and access different parts of her.

YOU are meeting HER needs.
MARK is meeting HER needs.

But Beth is not the only player here. (Only Beth's needs are mostly met at this time in inappropriate, dishonest ways) is not (You, Beth AND Mark's needs are mostly met at this time in appropriate, honest ways.)

But I know I need to just decide what it is I want. If this doesn't work for me, I need to be an adult and say so and work on finding what I need.

Yup. If participating in a cheating affair with Beth behind Mark's back in front of him while calling it "polyship" is not your cup of tea? Could stop doing it. Deal with it in appropriate ways.


If staying in a marriage that no longer fits is not your cup of tea? Could stop being married. Deal with it in appropriate ways.

Take care of your business, heal, and then allow yourself to move on. Hopefully to something honest and more fulfulling/satisfying than this.

Hang in there. You can do it!

GL!
Galagirl
 
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You have the right to get your needs met too.

She has no right to limit your seeking another partner.

The only thing she has a say in is anything that impacts her sexual health.
 
I actually suggested to beth we end it, or I go find another partner that will meet my needs. She wouldn't accept that. She says she needs both of us, that Mark and I together fill her relationship needs and access different parts of her.

Well the great thing about poly is that you CAN go find another partner AND she CAN still have you and Mark.

I don't understand what the problem is- but I'm assuming that you don't really understand poly at all. I think you are using poly as a way to justify the fact that you cheated on your wife and she cheated on her fiancé. Poly is more than that. Too bad you can't just embrace the lifestyle as a valid lifestyle choice that you are making and be able to go from there. It's an awesome lifestyle!
 
I actually suggested to beth we end it, or I go find another partner that will meet my needs. She wouldn't accept that. She says she needs both of us, that Mark and I together fill her relationship needs and access different parts of her.

Um yeah, now Beth needs her ass kicked. :p.

There is more to this relationship than Beth getting her needs met. There are Mark's needs (although at this point that is between them) and there are your needs as well. It would be a good exercise to determine what your needs are, which ones she is meeting, and which ones she is not. Then inform her. She can choose to address those unmet needs in an authentic way or she may come to the conclusion that she is unwilling or incapable. If it is the latter, then you have every right to get those unmet needs fulfilled elsewhere - whether it means including some one new in your poly configuration (although I beg you not to do this until you have your shit sorted - doing it before the shit is sorted is an easy way to hurt yet another person), or breaking up with Beth and starting anew.

While it does make one feel wanted to be needed as when Beth stated she needs you both, you are not a toy she can play with as the mood and situation permits. She needs to ask herself what it would feel like to be in your shoes. Heck you could ask her if she thinks she would be happy with your personal situation.

Good luck to you!
 
All was going mostly well. Except I had isolated myself from most of my community. I didn't have any support. I was struggling with being alone since Beth and Mark lived with each other.

You lied and cheated endlessly to a number of people, you threw your wife under a bus, you risked your wife's health, and you have no support. I'm having a hard time working up any sympathy. I suppose that's because I'm not even trying.

I have to agree with a previous response: sounds to me like you're more interested in hurting Beth's marriage. Honesty has not exactly been at the top of your list of priorities, so I, too, kind of doubt it's out of any noble desire for virtue.
 
There is more to this relationship than Beth getting her needs met.

I can't even get past this sentence. THANK YOU for saying it. There is way too much emphasis in our current society on 'getting my needs met.' The world would be a better place if we all simply refused to say that phrase for just one year, and tried working on meeting other people's needs for a little bit.
 
I am glad you are seeking counseling as you heal from the fundie brainwashing! That, to me, is the crux of the matter. As you well know now, that kind of christianity does lead to a lot of hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. Parroting the fundie line of Christ and love and monogamy, and then, as you did, cheating and lying on the side. Til you break down from your soul being rotted.

Read francescasc's blog here, she's going thru it from the other end. Her h was the lying cheater, he said he was still Christian after she left the church, turns out he was paying for whores and strippers the whole time.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51858

I know lots of poly people start out with a cheating scenario and manage somehow to salvage things and make it work with the partner they cheated with, as well as the person they cheated on. It can take years to heal and renegotiate, and sometimes (as in Loving Radiance's case) there is lingering resentment from the spouse despite years of actions taken by the cheater to rebuild trust.

So, not saying you can't salvage things with your Beth, by coming clean 100% with her new husband, but are you willing to put in the work? It's lovely to be loved and needed, but how much are you willing to go through to come out as her partner and be accepted by Mark and their families?
 
Oh yeah, and I wanted to add, seems to me your desire to be Beth's husband, instead of Mark being her husband, is a holdover from your fundie/mono brainwashing as well. Competing males! Rawr! It's what the patriarchy is all about.

Mark doesn't own Beth, despite now being married to her. You wouldn't own her if she was your wife, and she wouldn't own you.

Wives as chattel was the norm back when the Bible was written. Not now. Especially not if Beth is insisting on an open relationship with Mark-- but even if they were mono. Marriage is convenient, it gets you social recognition in many ways, and legal benefits as well, but as for the spouses, other issues can and should be negotiated as needed. Freedom to come and go, see friends separately, pursue hobbies separately, even have lovers, it's all up to you!
 
Wow. I should've posted on this forum months ago. The depth of the responses are challenging, encouraging, infuriating... but all ultimately supportive. Thank you.

What amazes me is the level of honesty here. That's a big thing my church lacked... They may give you an honest answer, but it's contingent on you changing your life to conform to a model that doesn't work for many.

Magdlyn, you're right. People aren't property. I know this cognitively. But getting my emotions and responses to fall in line... that is taking work. It's harder than I thought it would be.

WhatHappened, you are right. I was being an asshole. I can't continue to blame the church and society and my community for this... I chose this. And now I am seeing the full scope of it and am trying to learn... move forward. Be healthy. And honest.

Bookbug, I am actively working to understand my needs. I in fact have known them for awhile, but repressed them because I felt guilty about potentially ruining Mark's relationship, hurting my wife, and potentially losing Beth. But now I know I am listening... and striving for honesty.

Beth and I had a big talk yesterday. Her best friend (and maid of honor who knows everything and loves all three of us) had just scolded Beth for not telling Mark about the affair. Beth came to me trying to figure out a way if she could tell Mark. I told her that I won't press the matter. That it's her decision.

I told her though, that I may need to take a break, or even go find another partner as I don't want to mess with her and Mark anymore. She didn't like those options (she's fine with me having a second partner, but I don't think she wants me to have an emotional anchor with someone else) and finally admitted that she was afraid of losing me, and potentially losing the whole Vee.

I told her that I want to try to make this work, try to to do poly in an honest way. But didn't know how to as long as I know there is deceit involved. I was very calm and said, "I want all of us to have our needs met. You need to be willing to let me go if that is the most healthy way to proceed."

Beth asked me to at least sit with Mark and talk about all this (not the affair) and see if we can negotiate an arrangement that works. (no we haven't done this ever. Beth has slowly asked Mark for more time with me, sleepover privileges, trips etc... all which he agreed to. But Beth didn't want to lay out the whole equal partner idea to quickly. All this makes me feel worse becuse Mark is such a standup guy)

After some back and forth and hard emotions, I agreed to not make a decision until I sat with Mark and her. But I asked Beth to reach out and talk to someone. She and I will be meeting with my therapist, I asked her to post her own version of the story on a poly forum and seek advice, and have a drink with some of my friends.

We'll see what happens.

And then last night all three of us hung out. I apologized to Mark, opening the door for us to begin healing. We then made dinner, played a game, watched a movie. I fell asleep on Beth's shoulder while she held Mark's hand. It was lovely and I do hope we can make it work.
 
Apologized for what? :confused:

  • Does that mean he knows now? That you and Beth began an affair prior to presenting it as "polyshipping" to him?
  • Or did you apologize for not getting together in trio to talk/hang out until this time?

That's two different things there. Could you be willing to clarify?

Galagirl
 
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I apologized for saying I'd divorce my wife for Beth a week before their wedding. Beth told him that I had said this, which I'm not happy with, but we're all in a place where we are reacting to each other, saying hurtful things. We need to slow down, talk, negotiate etc...

Right now I feel I can offer Beth two trajectories:

1) We move towards a path of honesty and openness where she eventually tells Mark the whole truth. We start to open up to a few trusted friends and family (my Dad know everything and he's supportive. Good dude!) and if trust can be rebuilt, we can work towards a longer commitment.

or

2) We keep our secret, and I move towards finding another partner that can fulfill my needs in an open and honest way.
 
I hope you have stopped sleeping with Beth and put your relationship on hold until she tells Mark the truth.
 
Just a short comment. You said to Beth:

You need to be willing to let me go if that is the most healthy way to proceed.

I disagree. You YOURSELF need to have the strength to walk away from an unhealthy situation, even against Beth's willingness, if it is the best way to secure YOUR OWN well-being.
 
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