KT's Blog

Day 5 of no fighting with 2rings - that's a record for us lately. :eek: 2rings and I had a very intense, emotional talk on Saturday night and I feel like we have finally started moving forward. Everything that I have done over the past two years to understand and accept MG being in his life and the changes to our marriage that that causes - have failed. I have consciously and unconsciously done things to control their relationship and the impact it had on me. Everything I have done, all the emotions that I let get out of control and all the hurtful words I have said have backfired on me. While I do not take full blame for our marriage falling apart - I do recognize and admit my part in it.

2rings has often recited this quote to me: "the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Well - that's what I've been doing and it hasn't worked out well for me. So - I have made the decision to submit to 2rings, to confront my fears and insecurities, and to allow life to happen instead of trying to control it. Its time I move on and find happiness in this new marriage and this new reality.

I have already started making the changes that I need to in order to move forward to a happier life: I've started exercising more regularly, being more aware of what I'm eating, started a new medication for my depression, I've started looking into taking a class and we start marriage counseling on Saturday.

Here are a few quotes from Radical Acceptance that have touched me and caused me to reevaluate my life and marriage:

"When the resistance is gone, the demons are gone."

"In bringing a clear and comprehensive awareness to our situation, we begin to accept our wanting self with compassion. This frees us to move forward, to break out of old patterns."

"We watch ourselves sabotage intimate relationships when we are driven by neediness and insecurity."

"It doesn't matter what is happening. What matters is how we are relating to our experience."

"If we are taken over by craving, no matter who or what is before us, all we can see is how it might satisfy our needs. This kind of thirst contracts our body and mind into a profound trance. We move through the world with a kind of tunnel vision that prevents us from enjoying what is in front of us."
 
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This is great to hear! :) As things improve, don't loose heart when you hit a snag and it feels like your back to square one. The truth is your not back to square one, you just took a tumble and you just have to get back up and dust yourself off (I struggle with this :rolleyes:).

I found that things work out much better when I'm not trying to control everything, as my family will tell you, letting go of my control is not something I'm all that good at :eek:. When asking for your needs, be specific and let him come up with the solutions and work arounds, leaving off negative type comments - it actually works amazingly well.
 
So - I have made the decision to submit to 2rings, to confront my fears and insecurities, and to allow life to happen instead of trying to control it. Its time I move on and find happiness in this new marriage and this new reality.
This gives me pause, KT.

I would encourage you to think of it as surrendering to what is in your life right now, rather than submitting to 2Rings himself. That is dangerous ground, and there is a hugely important difference between the words submit and surrender.


When we submit, we "give in," keeping the focus on ourselves. There is still an element of control in that. When we submit to another, we give a piece of ourselves away and, because of that, become more fractured. We have placed the responsibility for our lives in another person's hands and effectively give up being an adult. Submitting returns us to childhood dependency on another for survival -- doing so limits our personal freedom and we ultimately become more afraid, since underneath it all at some level, we (our higher self) know we have basically betrayed a part of ourselves to gain the acceptance of another. Bah!

Submission goes against our personal will, our heart's desires, and our inner truths in exchange for a perceived payback. It's an unconscious bribe and has a quality of martyring oneself. There is always a motivating factor behind it for both parties. It always involves a relationship of unequal power -- the one with more perceived power, whether financial, emotional, spiritual, or otherwise, subconsciously agrees to provide some form of care or a need met for the one of lesser power -- but it is based on what the "more powerful" one gets out of it. Has he ever really put your needs before his own? And what if 2Rings gives you what he thinks is good for you, what he wants for you based on his own gratification, rather than what is truly the best for you - things and treatment that you don't want or that don't honor the beauty of who you are - will you submit anyway?


On the other hand, there is surrender. When we surrender, we "give up," not in the sense of losing, but in the sense of becoming unified with what we are surrendering to. Surrender means acceptance as if it was your choice in the first place, as if the way it is is exactly what you want. It puts the focus on something bigger, greater than our own gratification or need to feel better. It is not about putting someone else in control.

When we surrender to a circumstance in our life, or to the the truth of what is, we return ourselves back to what we are made of -- and with that, we feel more whole. By surrendering, we truly reclaim more of who we really are. However, one wouldn't surrender to another person, but to things like life, truth, what we have created in our lives, our independence, God (if you are a believer), or our greater spiritual self.

The Sufis say that the tears that come from the real pain of submission are of a torturous quality, while the tears of surrender come from the recognition that something we have yearned for all of our lives is finally happening. They say that in true surrender, there can be nothing but deeper wholeness and return to communion with our God (or your true nature). Submitting to 2Rings would be like bargaining for him to make you whole, while surrendering to life gives you the opportunity to make yourself whole.

I found a quote by Brennan Manning, from a book called The Importance of Being Foolish:
"But there is an essential difference between submission and surrender. The former is the conscious acceptance of reality. There is a superficial yielding, but tension continues...It is halfhearted acceptance. It is described by words such as resignation, compliance, acknowledgement, concession. There remains a feeling of reservation, a tug in the direction of non-acceptance.

Surrender, on the other hand, is the moment when my forces of resistance cease to function, when I cannot help but respond to the call of the Spirit. The ability to surrender is a gift of God. However eagerly we may desire it, however diligently we may strive to acquire it, surrender cannot be attained by personal endeavor."​
If you ever begin to feel like, "why aren't I feeling better, getting what I wanted, after I gave in?" it means that you submitted to 2Rings and still feel like something is owed you for your sacrifice. But surrendering to the relationship you and 2Rings have made (rather than to him and his will), acknowledging where you are and what you want, washes away all feelings of being owed anything and you stand in place next to him, not below him, as an equal partner in your relationship. And the choices you both make together will be as partners, not adversaries - even if you walk away from it all. Surrendering to life as it is, still means you can be independent - whether you stay with 2Rings or not. Sharing your husband may never be right for you, and perhaps surrendering to that instead of fighting or submitting to his will is more appropriate. But submitting to 2Rings and what he wants? No, that makes you dependent upon him, no matter how you or he tries to paint it.
 
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So - I have made the decision to submit to 2rings,

Ahh, so his infamous 'submit to me' speech wins. .....pity.

Well, I can understand you wanting to hold up the white flag. You have to be exhausted from fighting. Anything must feel like a reprieve.

Thing is,..there is a difference between giving up control over things you have no right to control , versus giving up control over yourself..

If you have to give up control over yourself to stop the fighting,....that is a ' band-aid applicated to a broken bone' in my opinion.

I also wonder, with having children, what do you explain to them ?

' Mommy is gonna do as daddy says, just like you ' ?..That sounds cheeky, but I`m genuinely not sure how it works. People can engage in these fluffy dom/sub aspects, but how do you raise children to be their own people, and not eventually treat one sex or the other as inferior ?
 
Ahh, so his infamous 'submit to me' speech wins. .....pity.

Oh thank gaud someone else said it before I had to.

I guess I interpred this a little differently. Maybe I'm missing some back ground, history or something. Maybe I'm just injecting much of my own situation, where I tend to be a bit of a control freak. I need to know every little detail of everything going on and I try to dictate how things should be done. This causes issues because my husband get insulted by this and assumes I don't trust is ability or think he is incapable of coming up with a solution on his own.

When one person is trying to "micro manage" or control every situation and all it's parts (KT has admited this), the other person will either give up and allow it or fight back in a number of ways. With my husband he gets very passive aggressive. He won't outright disagree with me, but will make it appear that he has completely ignored anything I said and in many cases do the exact opposite. He's pissed because I was trying to "control" him and I'm pissed because he blew me off and didn't even bother to tell me he had a difference of opinon.

What I found helpful, instead of telling him HOW to handle a situation, is to say "I'm [scared, worried, anxious, nervous, etc] about ..., how can we fix it?" This tend to open up a discussion and he no longer feels like I'm trying to dictate what he needs to do. We only have one car, so trying to juggle all our schedules and transportation was actually a great tool for working on this. I STOPED offering solutions and just simply stated "I need to be ______ at such and such a time", within 24 hours he had a solution, which usually left me with a car. Had I told him that he needed to find a ride, it would have been ugly and I would have been the one stranded. Is this submitting? Maybe?

I found that I don't NEED to have absolute control to get the desired result and if I'm willing to relenquish some control, everyone is much happier and I'm alot less stressed.
 
Submitting is like being told to jump off a cliff into the ocean on the hope that the person telling you to do that will then jump in and save you. Surrendering is going into the water willingly and of your own accord, and swimming with the current, moving with it as one. From reading further back in this thread, it seems KT has tried to submit and jumped in the deep many times before, only to find herself bashed against the rocks, emotionally abandoned, and being convinced it was all her fault.
 
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[Insert a few swear words]

Breath!

KT your husband sounds a lot like mine, especially when he's a bit irritated and decides to go off on a rant. Mine didn't actually use the word submit (probably fear of flying object if he had), but everything else sounds a bit deja vu. After reading that, I completely stand by my previous suggestions. Tell him your specific need and let him figure out the how.

Does this sound familiar: If you ask him to do something, dishes, laundry, take out the trash, etc. does he gets a little hostile and resents being "told what to do". You are accused of being "contoling". He will help out in his own time and his own way, just don't ask. Oh, and kiss the ground and make a big flippin deal when he does, it was a "gift" after all.​

When you get to your couples counceling, address specific words and defenitions, especially if it is something that keeps coming up over and over and over again (ours was "said" vs "ment" :rolleyes:). It is very likely that you both have completely different definitions for a word or words that seems like a no-brainer. Certain words and verbage can also immediately throw up defenses and it won't matter what's said after that. Find out what his and your triggers are.
 
I find it comical really. If I ever tried that "rant" on the anyone I love, I would end up beat.. then passed over to my mom, who would then proceed to beat me more. Then passed up to my father who is dead, and further beaten.. my dad was one of the most alpha men I know and even he knew he could only control himself.. *shakes head*.. (oh and i woud sooo deserve the beating too)

I can't believe conversations like that still exist today. And I can't believe people still put up with them. Outside of a M/s relationship (and even then it is questionable)... its total controlling chauvinistic bullshit.
 
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I knew that a few of you would take issue with the word "submit" (and you are all entitled to your opinion) but I was hoping that you would see the whole picture of what I was saying instead of that one word.

I have consciously and unconsciously done things to control their relationship and the impact it had on me. So - I have made the decision to submit to 2rings, to confront my fears and insecurities, and to allow life to happen instead of trying to control it. Its time I move on and find happiness in this new marriage and this new reality.

I have already started making the changes that I need to in order to move forward to a happier life: I've started exercising more regularly, being more aware of what I'm eating, started a new medication for my depression, I've started looking into taking a class and we start marriage counseling on Saturday.

This was about ME taking control of my emotions and how I react to issues regarding MG and polyamory. This was about ME making the changes in my life that I need to make in order to be a happier person. This was about ME consenting to "submit" to him in order for us to move on, repair our marriage and have a happy life together. He is NOT forcing me to do anything. I am choosing to do this of my own free will. He loves MG and wants her in his life. He also loves me and wants me in his life. I want and need him in my life and I wholeheartedly DO NOT want to get divorced. So - in order for all of us to get what we want, I have to accept MG in his life in a less controlling way than I have been.

As bitterborn so eloquently wrote in another thread (I replaced "she" and "her" with "he" and "him" to refer to 2rings:
-[He] isn't mine. [He] has never been my possession, I don't own [him.] [He] has chosen to spend the last 12 years with me and [he] chooses to spend the rest of our lives together. The feeling of "it's my turn now", watching the clock, and sense of ownership is akin to a child refusing to share toys and either crying or lashing out at others when another child is playing with them.

-[He] is an individual, [he] is not half of me. We absolutely make a great team. But [he] is my equal not my alter ego.

Isn't this the whole idea of polyamory? I have tried to control what they do so that I don't get hurt - but I still got hurt. Not only did I get hurt, but my marriage was destroyed because of my need to micro-manage their relationship based off of what I could and couldn't handle - and again, it didn't work out well for me. So I have decided, by myself, with no pressure from 2rings - to change this way of thinking and instead relinquish my need to control what they do and don't do in their relationship.

Maybe a better or more accurate word would have been "surrender" as nycindie said:
On the other hand, there is surrender. When we surrender, we "give up," not in the sense of losing, but in the sense of becoming unified with what we are surrendering to. Surrender means acceptance as if it was your choice in the first place, as if the way it is is exactly what you want. It puts the focus on something bigger, greater than our own gratification or need to feel better. It is not about putting someone else in control. When we surrender to a circumstance in our life, or to the the truth of what is, we return ourselves back to what we are made of -- and with that, we feel more whole. By surrendering, we truly reclaim more of who we really are. However, one wouldn't surrender to another person, but to things like life, truth, what we have created in our lives, our independence, God (if you are a believer), or our greater spiritual self.

I found a quote by Brennan Manning, from a book called The Importance of Being Foolish: "But there is an essential difference between submission and surrender. The former is the conscious acceptance of reality."

Exactly! I am making a conscious effort to accept the reality of my life. That reality is that my husband does love someone else, does want that person to be a bigger part of his life and does, at the same time, still want me with him forever. The more and more I fight what is happening between them - the farther and farther apart him and I are becoming. I am not "giving up" myself, I am expanding my way of thinking and dealing with this situation.

He does not and will not "control" me in the way you are all thinking. I DO have thoughts, ideas, and opinions and I will share those with him when I see fit. However, I am now "surrendering" and choosing to pick my battles instead of sharing my thoughts, ideas and opinions on everything. Does that make sense? He is not going to tell me what to do, how to dress, how to feel or how to think. He is not my master - this is not a D/s relationship.

Since his "submit and you will win" post has been linked here - let me use that to point some things out. And remember - this post was directly written to MG because of issues they were having at the time with both of them needing to have control over everything. I have bolded and typed in red the points that I agree with and the reasons I am choosing to "submit."

You and I (MG) have been in what seems to be a power struggle, but really, the way I see it, it's just as much about trust. And that becomes a bigger problem when I begin to feel rejected because I feel you don't trust me enough give yourself to me. I think you get angry because you assume that I would try control you. I do understand it. Submission is a difficult position to adjust to when you're used to being ''in charge''. You are a forceful (see how kind?) personality, and there is no doubt that you rule the roost in all of your other relationships.
But that's never going to work with me. We will fight and make each other miserable until one of us decides to give up and walk away. That is not what I want. Here's my solution-

Submit, and you will have the power.


It boils down to this - I will happily give you the power that I'd never let you take. I know myself. I have tried to change. But I know that my stubborn, defiant nature will not allow me to submit to you. Submit to me, and I think you will find that I will happily turn things over to you.

KT gets it. In our relationship, I am dominant. But she is far from being a stepford wife. We work together well. When something comes up, it is almost always a joint decision on how to proceed, and more often than not, I defer to her wants/needs/opinion. Do I have what amounts to a "final say"? More or less. But it very rarely comes to that. Of course we squabble. Every couple does. But it generally works pretty well. I feel needed and trusted, and she knows that she is cared for and that her opinion is important.

From what I know - and please, MG, correct me if I am wrong - but this is the road that MG chose to take and from what I know - they have been getting along better as a result. Yes, I know they still have their issues and fights - but I do believe that things are going more smoothly between them than they were when he posted this. I'm not sure if this is something she has written about in her blog - but if she did, maybe that would help explain things. I am not going to assume to know exactly what goes on in their relationship.

I need to go get the kids in bed - so I will post this now - then edit or respond later if I need to. I don't feel like I have explained things adequately - I'm having a hard time putting thoughts in my head on the screen right now.
 
I find it comical really. If I ever tried that "rant" on the women I love, I would end up beat.. then passed over to my mom, who would then proceed to beat me more. Then passed up to my father who is dead, and further beaten.. my dad was one of the most alpha men I know and even he knew he could only control himself.. *shakes head*..

I can't believe conversations like that still exist today. And I can't believe people still put up with them. Outside of a M/s relationship (and even then it is questionable)... its total controlling chauvinistic bullshit.

Ari - you have "spoken" personally to 2rings on the phone, either text or voice (I'm not sure) and I know that MG has shared a lot with you - and from that, I would assume that you got a good feel for what 2rings is like on a personal level and not just what you read on here. He is a good guy, he's the first to offer help to anyone in need, he would give you the shirt off his back and he is the first to offer advice, encouragement and support to anyone - including you.

The very nature of my blog is to write of the problems I am having in relation to polyamory in the hopes of getting some advice, support and help. I have primarily written on here when things were going extremely bad and I was extremely angry and hurt. Not all of those emotions were 2rings fault - but that's how it came across. This has been a VERY emotional 2 years and I have definitely not been at my best. Neither has he. And neither has MG. We are all human. That one quote that he wrote, taken out of context and without understanding - would sound chauvanistic and pig-headed. But his intention, his meaning was lost in his tone and choice of words.
 
The fact remains that those are 2Rings' words and no one else has put them there against his will or forced him to say something he doesn't mean. We have all read his words and can make up our own minds.

Some people may think I've judged 2Rings according to what you and MG have said about him, but the truth is, I judge everyone by their own actions, words, and behaviours, not by those of the people around them.

Good night Kat.
 
Yes he did lend a hand to me when I needed that gateway person into AA. Ys he does seem like a nice guy. I have texted and emailed for the record, he was a good resource in those beginning stages. It doesn't change my opinion of his opinion on control.

But it is.. Outright, impossible to be an independent person while submitting yourself to someone else. If that is what you want that's fine, i can't argue the point. Not my place. Bt don't try to paint it one way and call it something else.

You are either an independent person or you are not. If you want to be controlled in that way, then fine, again not my place. It seems like the easy way to me.

Bst of luck, my point in this hasn't changed since the first time I read it.. And it isn't different now. :) the way he describes control of another person is offensive to anyone who is independent. Especially some women I love dearly in life. My mother would rip him a new one with that kind of thinking. (he sounds like my grandad and my mother woud fight with him endlessly, kind of funny to think back on it now, poor old guy didn't know what hit him when my mom came into the family)
 
. He is a good guy, he's the first to offer help to anyone in need, he would give you the shirt off his back and he is the first to offer advice, encouragement and support to anyone

I would like to point something out. I do not know 2rings so I merely offer this as food for thought and you can do with it as you will.

It is entirely possible for some to be

Good
Charming
Helpful
Supportive
Protective

And any number of decent qualities

in SOME situations, with SOME people

and in other situations

to be

Vicious
Controlling
Manipulative
Unreasonable
Cruel
Abusive

For instance, my mother heaped emotional abuse on me while treating my older sister fairly normally. She taught elementary school children and was very nice to them. So many people thought she was kind, caring and mature. She was like that to me sometimes too. But she could also be very different.

I don't know what characteristics 2rings has or the health/dysfunction of your relationship. This may apply or it may not. But your reasoning in the above quote doesn't stand with me. It's like saying that I can't eat a cheese burger because sugar is bad for me. The two aren't necessarily related. If you don't think 2rings is controlling then give us some examples of 2rings acting to support your independence.
 
Out of all of these latest posts- Ray your last couple of sentences make the most sense. I am glad someone thought to ask this of KT.
For me concerning the linked quotes of 2Rings, KT I will correct you in that he was talking about my feminist, independent views of which polyamory is now identified as one of my practices. It was not about me being controlling but rather direct and assertive. I would say I still am. i just pick my battles. And I think that is why he fell in love with me to some extent.
As far as your last few posts, I agree that you are articulating a desire to move forward. I truly hope that happens this time.
Btw thank you for inviting me to comment. My responses have not always been welcomed here.
I do not believe he has ever been abusive in anyway. I think that is the sad misconception here. I think he can be a loudmouth, opinionated jerk but only when allowed to be.
For the most part he is awesome.
 
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Good morning Kat!

I spent most of the last day reading these 50 pages. I can't give you any advice and I don't agree with lots of the advice you were given.

I have only the perspective of what was written on this blog so my following words are biased. I can tell you that the three of you are beautiful if you could see it from a magical perspective. If you had special glasses that filtered out the pain you would see the love there. Like me 2rings can be an ass, like me you can assign motives and emotions to actions and words that weren't intended, like me MG really wants everyone to be happy and it always seems to blow up in her face. Like me you all seem to hold on to the pain and keep it warm so it never dies.

But wow, the love there is enormous, the committment, the strength of the love needed to survive the rollercoaster yall have been on for two years. 2rings is still there for you, no matter now many times you hand him your rings and try to turn him into 1ring he comes back, no matter how bad it turned, he was still there. When the pain turned physical for him he was there. He is willing to go to a therapist with you. He does love you, if he didn't he would have ended his own pain. No matter the pain you felt, you were still there, no matter the fight you were there, no matter the times you walked away, you walked back. Every time you thought it had failed you found a way to try to fix it. You do love him, if you didn't you would have ended your own pain. And MG was there for him as well.

My god you are beautiful. Your love between you and husband is beautiful. Both of those things are true 50 pages, 2 years and one MG later.
 
If you don't think 2rings is controlling then give us some examples of 2rings acting to support your independence.

The decision I made to "submit/surrender" to him was not made because he was controlling me to do so. He did not give me the "submit speech." He didn't force me to make that decision - I made it for myself. Now that's not to say he hasn't been controlling at various times over 20 years - but the same could be said for me. He may have and share his opinions - but when it comes down to it - I make my own choices and decisions. Part of my decision to "submit/surrender" was done to alleviate some of the fighting that has been going on recently. I am choosing to pick my battles instead of fighting everything he says. He does, at times, do the same thing for me. In our daily life - we do tend to make most decisions together. Sometimes one of us will concede to what the other wants.

How has 2rings supported my independence?

•he has encouraged and supported me iEn exercising and losing weight so that I can gain self-esteem and become more comfortable in my skin and therefor a happier, stronger, more self assured me.

•he has encouraged and supported me to find a hobby, take a class, to do something that I enjoy in order to get my own life separate from him.

•he has encouraged and supported me to do more things with friends.

•he has encouraged and supported me by helping me to confront issues that I have that have caused me to feel inadequate, inferior, un-loved, un-worthy so that I can start to love myself, and be a stronger, more independent woman.

•he has encouraged and supported me to see a counselor, get on medication (if I thought that would help me) and by agreeing to go to counseling with me to strengthen myself and our marriage.

•he has encouraged and supported me to become independent by encouraging me to try to find a man (or woman) who I'm interested in spending time with and possibly dating.


I can tell you that the three of you are beautiful if you could see it from a magical perspective. If you had special glasses that filtered out the pain you would see the love there. Like me 2rings can be an ass, like me you can assign motives and emotions to actions and words that weren't intended, like me MG really wants everyone to be happy and it always seems to blow up in her face. Like me you all seem to hold on to the pain and keep it warm so it never dies.

But wow, the love there is enormous, the committment, the strength of the love needed to survive the rollercoaster yall have been on for two years. 2rings is still there for you, no matter now many times you hand him your rings and try to turn him into 1ring he comes back, no matter how bad it turned, he was still there. When the pain turned physical for him he was there. He is willing to go to a therapist with you. He does love you, if he didn't he would have ended his own pain. No matter the pain you felt, you were still there, no matter the fight you were there, no matter the times you walked away, you walked back. Every time you thought it had failed you found a way to try to fix it. You do love him, if you didn't you would have ended your own pain. And MG was there for him as well.

My god you are beautiful. Your love between you and husband is beautiful. Both of those things are true 50 pages, 2 years and one MG later.

bitterborn - thank you for that! We do love each other very much. These last two years have been devastating for both of us. We are both worn out and drained from all the fighting. We have wasted 2 years of our lives and we'll never get them back. I don't want to waste anymore time. I want to enjoy my husband, I want him to enjoy me, and I want our children to feel safe and secure. I want him to be who he is, and to live and love as he needs. And I want the same in return.

I don't own him. He doesn't own me. It's taken me a long time to understand that.

And I agree with MG - she does deserve acknowledgement. These past 2 years haven't been easy for her either. But her love for 2rings has given her the strength to stick around.
 
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