Marginalization of young polys

As was said before, this forum and this thread aren't terribly representative of the people you've been saying that you want information from. I really can't see how what you read here would be sufficient enough to give you a clearer view. Unless confirmation bias is what you were seeking.
Ceoli, data points are data points - none of them are bad. As I wrote before, I read and comprehended (I believe) what you wrote about this not being the whole picture, or even a totally representative one, and have been also doing other things to educate myself.

If this is something you truly would like to understand, I would suggest going outside of this forum and reading and researching around marginalization and concentration of power. There are many subtleties to the dynamic you were attempting to understand and this thread has barely scratched the surface since many people have been just seeing what they want to see rather than really engage.
Many of the doors to me for forums that cater to such age-groups are closed to me, and I recognize that I am an "outsider" (and I can respect that) so that has somewhat limited me - but I have been doing some other reading - enough for me to gain some better understanding of the issue than I had before (I don't know that I will ever be able to see the whole of the issue). This has certainly given me some great information to help me set my priorities.

So I thank you for mentioning this issue to start with.
 
This is coming from a UK perspective, and is as implicit of the bisexual scene as it is the poly-one (but over here there seems to be a huge amount of crossover).

I'm 22. My fiancé is 19. We're not your typical "let's go out and get ****-faced" 19 and 22 year-old's, admittedly, but we've never felt more accepted than when we're around our poly friends.

The poly community is definitely older than us (the median age I think is about 34) but they're incredibly accepting and it's a very understandable thing. One thing we have noticed is that, for the most part, the people our own age a very positive when we mention polyamory (reactions include "That makes so much sense" and "I like what you do") and it's simply the lack of information that's holding them back from finding the community and exploring poly.

So, in short, no. As a younger poly neither myself nor my partner feel at all marginalised.
 
As was said before, this forum and this thread aren't terribly representative of the people you've been saying that you want information from. I really can't see how what you read here would be sufficient enough to give you a clearer view. Unless confirmation bias is what you were seeking.

If this is something you truly would like to understand, I would suggest going outside of this forum and reading and researching around marginalization and concentration of power. There are many subtleties to the dynamic you were attempting to understand and this thread has barely scratched the surface since many people have been just seeing what they want to see rather than really engage.

This is what I've been having trouble with within this thread. The request being made is "talk to me about your marginalization so I can learn" and then on the other hand it is being stated that "I don't have to discuss my views or my endeavors to understand marginalization outside of this forum, here where I am asking information of you." It is not encouraging a two way conversation. An 'I'll take but not give' approach perhaps.

There hasn't been any outreach or engagement with those who spoke of their experiences with marginalization. This then gives me the impression that "confirmation bias" is what is being sought and not alleviation of marginalization.


Many of the doors to me for forums that cater to such age-groups are closed to me, and I recognize that I am an "outsider" (and I can respect that) so that has somewhat limited me - but I have been doing some other reading - enough for me to gain some better understanding of the issue than I had before (I don't know that I will ever be able to see the whole of the issue). This has certainly given me some great information to help me set my priorities.

This is interesting and possibly connected to marginalization. Have you been told you're an outsider or have you been shut out from polyamory groups aimed at 18-35 year olds based on your age?

~Raven~
 
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This is interesting and possibly connected to marginalization. Have you been told you're an outsider or have you been shut out from polyamory groups aimed at 18-35 year olds based on your age?
Nope, I haven't been told anything - no feedback was given (which is typical for most online communities of whatever type, so I am not surprised)- my membership applications just weren't accepted. I do not fall into the target age range so that MAY (note I said "MAY") have been a reason why I was not accepted, but I can't tell for sure.

It's ok - I'm not about to start beating down any doors and demanding entrance, nor do I want to try to be somewhere I am not wanted.
 
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Nope, I haven't been told anything - no feedback was given (which is typical for most online communities of whatever type, so I am not surprised)- my membership applications just weren't accepted. I do not fall into the target age range so that MAY (note I said "MAY") have been a reason why I was not accepted, but I can't tell for sure.

It's ok - I'm not about to start beating down any doors and demanding entrance, nor do I want to try to be somewhere I am not wanted.
As you do say "may" and that no response is not something unexpected from online communities I am curious where this impression comes from:
Many of the doors to me for forums that cater to such age-groups are closed to me, and I recognize that I am an "outsider" (and I can respect that)

Where does the outsider bit come from if you were not told such and nothing occurred that was different from any other online community in your experience?

~Raven~

 
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Where does the outsider bit come from if you were not told such and nothing occurred that was different from any other online community in your experience?
Answered in my previous post.
 
I see. For a moment I was concerned that you were illustrating an instance of marginalization based on age. But now it seems you are stating otherwise. It's interesting that you chose to highlight that particular possibility of not being accepted by these groups for being seen as an "outsider" only to state that you were given no indication of this being the case in the slightest.

~Raven~
 
This is coming from a UK perspective, and is as implicit of the bisexual scene as it is the poly-one (but over here there seems to be a huge amount of crossover).

I'm 22. My fiancé is 19. We're not your typical "let's go out and get ****-faced" 19 and 22 year-old's, admittedly, but we've never felt more accepted than when we're around our poly friends.

The poly community is definitely older than us (the median age I think is about 34) but they're incredibly accepting and it's a very understandable thing. One thing we have noticed is that, for the most part, the people our own age a very positive when we mention polyamory (reactions include "That makes so much sense" and "I like what you do") and it's simply the lack of information that's holding them back from finding the community and exploring poly.

So, in short, no. As a younger poly neither myself nor my partner feel at all marginalised.

Glad to hear that and glad to have your input ! Bring your friends :)

GS
 
Response to criticism of freaksexual essay

As I am sure will be obvious from the following, I have a lot of sympathy for the position that younger poly-folk are marginalised.

I doubt that I will have any more success communicating why I've come to this belief than Raven or Ceoli did, but since this post specifically addressed a blog post on the subject that I think is spot-on, I'm going to speak to that.

Ok..........

I just finished reading a long essay from one of the links Raven posted - a Freaksexual site.

http://freaksexual.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/age-and-polyamory-organizing/

...

Overall however it was full of numerous contradictions and some questionable assumptions. The overall tone comes across to me as aggressive and confrontational.

Are you aware that this is a very cliched response to the objections of a marginalised group? http://www.theunapologeticmexican.org/glosario.html#maestro addresses this in the context of racism, but it happens in the context of feminists being described as 'shrill', and so on. Do you think it is reasonable for the priveleged to determine what is the appropriate tone, or level of expressed frustration or anger, for those that feel marginalised? Why would that be?

But the riff seems very tied to the current cultural norm of "I want it NOW, I want it MY way, and YOU are in my way !"

Do you understand that adopting the position as being able to describe something as "the current cultural norm" might itself be an ageist statement? If you see this is an objective assessment of the way that things are, do you understand that those people who don't have the same privelege as you do might see things differently? Is there any room in this understanding of "the cultural norm" for people who are actually marginalised, and are frustrated or angry or aggressive about it? Do you think that there could ever be a situation in which you were "in the way", or are you the only reasonable judge of who is in the way or not?

It's mostly about talking and not so much about listening.

Do you think it is reasonable to tell someone who says that their voice is not being heard that they should do more listening? Do you think that the person who has more authority and privilege should be the arbiter of who should talk and who should listen?

Now, this may itself sound 'age-ist',

Why are you using quotes there? Do you disbelieve that ageism exists? Do you think you could defend the position that people don't judge other people based on prejudices about their age? If not, do you think that you get to be the person who decides what is appropriate judging and what isn't?

I'm one O dem damn hippies ! So my perspective and experiences kind of go back to a lot of the beginnings of these social awarness causes. But things WERE different then. We didn't have books and professors then to just lay it all out in nice, neat little packages (designed and edited by who knows who). We had to build it, figure it out as we went.

Does this sound at all self-congratulatory to you? Being neither old enough nor American, I am not very familiar with hippy culture. I'd be very surprised, however, to learn that "social awareness" began in the United States within a specific recent generation. Do you think you can explain why your generation was so exceptional, if you do believe that? Would that explanation be able to be non-ageist?

But one thing that was different is that we didn't think we had all the answers.

Who are you responding to here? I'm pretty sure that Pepper doesn't think that he has "all the answers". There's probably someone of my and Pepper's generation that does think so, but it would be really weird to hold that person up as our representative. Is there any chance you're creating some straw man to attack instead of dealing with the actual conversation underway?

So bottom line - I don't see this being anything at all about 'marginalization'. If it is, it's obviously self designed & perpetuating.

Do you think it is reasonable for the person with the authority and privilege to be the one who decides who is marginalised and who is not? I suspect that if you think that through, you'll realise that might be a bad rule.

It is really encouraging that many young people have expressed how welcome they feel on this thread. Yay! But, I'd like to close by mentioning that *even more* might do so if it wasn't up to them to write a post like this (or like Raven's many posts). A great way to be an ally is to take on the job of calling out other people on their marginalising behaviour, instead of leaving it up to that marginalised group to do so.
 
Being neither old enough nor American, I am not very familiar with hippy culture. I'd be very surprised, however, to learn that "social awareness" began in the United States within a specific recent generation. Do you think you can explain why your generation was so exceptional, if you do believe that? Would that explanation be able to be non-ageist?

A great way to be an ally is to take on the job of calling out other people on their marginalising behaviour, instead of leaving it up to that marginalised group to do so.

Welcome to the forum jkelly, I think it's great that you have made some valid points in your post but would wonder if perhaps these above statements would not be seen as agiest them self and also marginalizing.

Just a thought.

I am wondering what your intent is in regard to your questions? It's hard to answer them without feeling defensive and that there isn't a finger being pointed by you.

I forget what went on in this thread as it was a while ago now, but seem to remember there was a lot of finger pointing going on in it already... could you suggest some ideas on how to address the issues here without pointing a finger back and forth? Perhaps in such a way as to create communication out of interest and intent to understand one another? In the spirit of coming together as a larger poly community?

After all, we all merge together in commonality and hopefully community on here. Rather than with intent to divide.

Thanks for your consideration... :)
 
I'll tell you why young people aren't as marginalized as they think they are (and I'm 39. some people would consider that "young" as well. I do not have an opinion on that for the purposes of this discussion).

None of us are getting any younger, and Western society extols the virtues and benefits of youth as the "pop-cultural" norm (whether or not you agree that I am qualified to make this determination is academic and debatable. Let us assume for the moment that I am qualified to do so). Youth is seen as the "future". EVERYone was young at some point. EVERYone went through the "discrimination" of not being allowed to drive or not being allowed to buy alcoholic beverages. It is NOT the same thing as being of a certain minority ethnic or racial group, or a certain religious or lifestyle orientation. I remember being 20-ish and some of the offensive remarks that were made to me by "older" people regarding my age... It was clear then just as it is now that the people who made those remarks felt marginalized because of THEIR age! The "marginalization" of myself as a younger person was the side effect of older people who could not process their jealousy and envy. I remind myself of this often and try to make a point not to duplicate this mentality as I grow older. But you have to understand, that the cultural programming of western society DOES place youth on a pedestal, NOT the other way around.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but this seems to me to be a lot akin to the more neutrally-worded "Generation Gap" that has been around for ages. The idea that people from different generations have different paradigms and a lack of understand of the issues and priorities seems quite similar.

The only difference seems to be that instead of it being a mutually-agreed upon difference - that there is a divide between the age-groups, this is saying that one side is being marginalized, downtrodden, or made to feel less by a larger, more dominant group.

But is the root of the issue basically the same? A lack of understanding, and the differing behaviours associated with that?
 
Is this old thread reopened ?

Rkelly - do you have concerns you'd like to express or was your post just intended to weigh in with your opinion ?

Where you seemed to quote a lot of my statements, if you are still around and would like to open some general dialogue I'll be happy to expand on or clarify any of that material you picked out.

I think in general - and any/everyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - that this discussion ended on a note that while any particular 'individual' might feel something less than embraced by any particular preexisting group of any type, that 'in general' (overall) folks attempting to successfully live a poly lifestyle were far from 'ageist' - maybe even quite the contrary.

If that is the case I'm pretty sure the group (members) as a whole would be happy to help someone work through where that perception is coming from - the same as we try to help each other work through all manner of other sticky wickets.

What say anyone ?????

GS
 
Welcome to the forum jkelly, I think it's great that you have made some valid points in your post but would wonder if perhaps these above statements would not be seen as agiest them self and also marginalizing.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the welcome.

Having grown up in a culture that has some weird ideas about age (and a lot of other things), it's pretty likely that I fall into lazy thinking and have weird preconceptions that I'm not aware of.

I am wondering what your intent is in regard to your questions? It's hard to answer them without feeling defensive and that there isn't a finger being pointed by you.

The questions were my trying to illuminate what I read as marginalising statements. They certainly weren't an attempt to avoid making anybody feel defensive! When I feel defensive when reading about someone discussing their marginalisation, I take that as a sign that I'm having my privilege challenged, and try to work on figuring out where my issue is. So defensiveness is a good sign!

could you suggest some ideas on how to address the issues here without pointing a finger back and forth? Perhaps in such a way as to create communication out of interest and intent to understand one another?

I suspect that being strongly supportive of youth in community organising and leadership would be helpful.

I also think that it would be helpful if, when the topic is raised, those members of the community who are not young point out any marginalising behaviour from others in their age group. Given that they are likely to have more authority, it will be easier for them to be heard over the defensiveness.

I'll tell you why young people aren't as marginalized as they think they are (and I'm 39. some people would consider that "young" as well... EVERYone was young at some point. EVERYone went through the "discrimination" of not being allowed to drive or not being allowed to buy alcoholic beverages.

So your response to someone who is feeling marginalised due to their age is to tell them to not worry about it, because they'll just grow out of it?

I'm not sure why you're using scare quotes there with "discrimination", but I also don't see what its relevance is to being marginalised within the poly- community, which was the topic under discussion.

But you have to understand, that the cultural programming of western society DOES place youth on a pedestal, NOT the other way around.

I suspect that if you think about it, youth is not privileged when it comes to making their voices heard, or being taken as authorities at discussion groups or workshops, or when doing community organising, which is what we were discussing (specifically TNG groups and e-mail lists).

Is this old thread reopened ?

Rkelly - do you have concerns you'd like to express or was your post just intended to weigh in with your opinion ?

I think in general - and any/everyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - that this discussion ended on a note that while any particular 'individual' might feel something less than embraced by any particular preexisting group of any type, that 'in general' (overall) folks attempting to successfully live a poly lifestyle were far from 'ageist' - maybe even quite the contrary.

My username is Jkelly. R. Kelly is an American R&B artist with some unsavoury connotations when it comes to the topic of youth.

I understand that any concerns you may have had about the marginalisation of youth have been addressed to your satisfaction and "maybe even" beyond.
 
I suspect that being strongly supportive of youth in community organising and leadership would be helpful.

I also think that it would be helpful if, when the topic is raised, those members of the community who are not young point out any marginalising behaviour from others in their age group. Given that they are likely to have more authority, it will be easier for them to be heard over the defensiveness.

Thank you, that is very useful actually. I am going to a workshop tomorrow night on age differences in polyamory and I have given a lot of thought to my opinion... My thoughts were a long these lines and I appreciate that I am not off base in terms of being supportive rather than condescending, naive and ignorant.

username is Jkelly. R. Kelly is an American R&B artist with some unsavoury connotations when it comes to the topic of youth.

I understand that any concerns you may have had about the marginalisation of youth have been addressed to your satisfaction and "maybe even" beyond.

HAHAHA! oh too funny :D sorry GS, but I am familiar with Rkelly's music and I just find that tragically coincidental that you got our friend jkelly and Rkelly mixed up...

heehee, heh. okay, trying to stop laughing now... HA! okay, I think I got it out.... well kind of.

Carry on, don't mind me while I fall of my chair.

(I hope you don't think I'm laughing at you GS, well I am, but in a good way :eek:)
 
So your response to someone who is feeling marginalised due to their age is to tell them to not worry about it, because they'll just grow out of it?


Yes, that is correct. However, they will not grow out of feeling marginalized because of their AGE. They will grow out of feeling marginalized because they are "young" and then they will feel marginalized because they are "old".

I used to get the crap about not being taken seriously at meetings and all that. You know what? The way I dealt with that is not to wail about how marginalized I was, because that would have marginalized me further. The way I dealt with it was to do the best I could with my talents and strengths and PROVE through ACTIONS that I was able to do the job. I did not LET a bunch of insecure, small-minded nobodies tell me who *I* was or what my limits were.

So, yes. If you "feel marginalized" because of your age, get out there and live your life, get experienced in whatever it is you do, and don't let anyone else tell you you're less than just because of your age. I STILL look young and I STILL get that crap, but I don't feel compelled to say "hey, you know what, I'm 40, so stop treating me like I'm 20" because that's a very silly way of dealing with people in the first place. And it is not my mission in life to fix every jackass with whom I come in contact.
 
Workshop

Thank you, that is very useful actually. I am going to a workshop tomorrow night on age differences in polyamory and I have given a lot of thought to my opinion...

I'd be very interested to hear how that goes. I know it is long, but did you read the post at freaksexual that I linked to upthread? I think that Pepper does a lot of work examining the issue, which could lead to a lot of fruitful discussion.
 
I STILL look young and I STILL get that crap, but I don't feel compelled to say "hey, you know what, I'm 40, so stop treating me like I'm 20" because that's a very silly way of dealing with people in the first place.
Boy can I feel this thought!!
"YOU have an 18 year old daughter!??!?!?!?"
"Yes, I have an 18 yo DD, 14 yo DS, 10 yo DS and a 3 yo DD."
"That is IMPOSSIBLE!?!?!"
:confused:
(internal thought-impossible??)

I get SO much crap about being "so young". I just smile and say thank you-go on with whatever it is I'm doing whilst internally thinking-thank you God for letting me age well.

I have to agree that a lot of feeling marginalized goes away if you are willing to just act like yourself and live your life.

It may well have been this thread that some months ago I spoke of the 16 (now 17 yo) who I count as a friend. Yes he's younger than my oldest child. But he's a GREAT guy and I like hanging out with him. He's fun, honest, friendly and REAL. He doesn't treat me different because I'm "old" and I don't treat him different because he's "young" (except that he's hot and I DO NOT hit on him-because he is young-but that's different).
 
NOT>Rkelly said:
My username is Jkelly. R. Kelly is an American R&B artist with some unsavoury connotations when it comes to the topic of youth.

I understand that any concerns you may have had about the marginalisation of youth have been addressed to your satisfaction and "maybe even" beyond.

Well there ! See - learn something every day. Knew there was some reason to get up :) I'll have to check him out.
Sorry for the typo there bud (let's blame in on OLD eyes ? But a psychoanalyst would have a ball with your reaction.

Laughing Pepper said:
HAHAHA! oh too funny sorry GS, but I am familiar with Rkelly's music and I just find that tragically coincidental that you got our friend jkelly and Rkelly mixed up...

Kewl - I'm laughing with you. Glad I could add a little stress relief to your life for a minute ! We don't get enough laughter.
Having never heard of the individual, does this mean we need to assume some grander power at work ? :)

Anyway...............

J-kelly - what do YOU think ???
Do you feel marginalized in some way ?
How would you define marginalization ?

Always good to make sure everyone is on the same page when it comes to language & definition. Always step 1.

AND.........

You didn't answer my question ? Did you feel any need or desire to get any deeper understanding of the things I said that you quoted - or just content to make the point you have issues with them ? One or the tother .

GS
 
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