Fight over poly rules, on the verge of breaking up..

mostlyclueless

New member
I posted this over on the reddit poly forum but was hoping for more feedback; I am feeling so lost and stuck right now....

Even though I went into my relationship with my partner wanting/planning to be poly, it has been a horrible experience for me. I don't know how much backstory to include here so please feel free to ask if more details are needed.

After a lot of terrible miserableness, we agreed to try dating people together rather than separately. We had 1 rocky attempt, but it was better than dating separately had been.

Recently my partner expressed interest in a friend of mine. I said that I did not think dating her was a good idea because:

--I am not interested in her
--She is not interested in my partner (I avoided saying this during our fight, but she specifically dislikes him)
--She is strongly, strongly opposed to participating in poly relationships (fine for other people, definitely not for her)
--She is a virgin

At the time we discussed it, he said ok, not an option, and let it go. A few days later he flirted with her VERY blatantly, and I was annoyed, feeling like he completely disregarded what I said, but I didn't say anything.

I have recently had some issues with the same friend (flaked on plans last minute, didn't invite me to a social thing, said a couple rude things). When I was chatting with my partner about this, he asked if I was upset with her because of his feelings. I admitted that his feelings for her did make me feel chillier toward her, but that my frustration with our friendship was mostly about these other issues.

He got very upset and pointed out that I have a pattern of tearing down anyone he's interested in. This is true, and it is something that I am trying not to do, but it would help if he would be interested in people who were appropriate or good options.

From there the argument spiraled out of control. I think the main issues are:

1. He thinks the only acceptable response to him finding someone he's interested in is enthusiasm from me, since that is what he gives me. I don't know if I can ever achieve this, even though I agree it would be the most desirable response.

2. He thinks that if I am not interested in dating this girl, I am not behaving acceptably (within the framework of being poly) by ever saying no. I should have given it a shot, despite the issues I raised, or encouraged him to date her on his own since I'm not interested.

3. He does not think he should have to "police" his behavior, e.g., not flirting with her after we discussed and agreed (or so I thought) that she was not a good option for dating. In principle I agree with this, but a huge trigger for me feeling jealous/insecure is when I feel like my feelings are not being considered, which is how the flirting made me feel.

My takeaway from all of this is that there is no fucking way I will ever be "poly enough" for him. I am willing to work so hard to try to find a middle ground, and I thought that agreeing to date people together and me seeking out people who I thought were good options (which I have been doing) showed that I was committed and trying. I am in therapy trying to get over my jealousy/insecurity issues and most of it centers around not feeling loved/important in my relationship. I agree that the things he's asking for should ideally be happening, I would love to be able to be happy for him, and for him to date separately, and for everyone to be happy. But since I can't do that now, and am working toward it, I feel like he is being a huge spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum since he can't get his way all the time.

I hope that all made sense. Please, any help or advice or words of wisdom would be appreciated.
 
Some brief thoughts.

I don't think that only dating together is in any way a good compromise. It's not some middle ground, it's just a dysfunctional approach to dating that I honestly don't believe has a chance of working out well in the current climate of your relationship. Why put the both of you, and another person, through that just for the sake of an ideal of compromise? I apologize if that sound harsh, but it's as clear as I can put it.

Maybe he should just put a complete hold on dating other people for another, say, 6 months, while you work hard in therapy? Would that be possible? If not, why not? It would be one thing if there was another person he was in love with, but if he's just in love with the idea of dating, can't he wait a little longer?

I disagree that it's unfair to ask someone to police their behavior. We do it all the time. For instance, I don't flirt with coworkers, because it would be inappropriate. I don't go after people my gf is trying to get with, because that would hurt her feelings. It's not that hard.
 
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I don't think that only dating together is in any way a good compromise. It's not some middle ground, it's just a dysfunctional approach to dating that I honestly don't believe has a chance of working out well in the current climate of your relationship. Why put the both of you, and another person, through that just for the sake of an ideal of compromise?

THIS!

it would help if he would be interested in people who were appropriate or good options.

What does this mean? If you need your friends to be "off limits", have a conversation about what are or are not acceptable options. This should be done BEFORE he gets his sights on someone. You don't get to tear every potential down and/or make up excuses, just because you are feeling pissy and don't like the situation to begin with.
 
I understand that dating together is pretty unpopular around these parts, but honestly I think it is a pretty hard rule for me. The more experiences we have, the more certain I am of that. I think it's possible that our relationship could evolve to include separate relationships, but that would be a long way off.

As far as involving someone else in our dysfunction, I agree that is to be avoided, but I don't think dating separately gets around that at all.

We already took a 1 month break for me to get my head together; I think if I asked for 6 months he would consider it stalling.

By people who are not appropriate, I mean all kinds of things -- people who are not interested in either of us, people who are not interested in poly, people who are in very dysfunctional situations, etc.
 
I think that dating as a cpl is a terrible idea. I also think he is being insensitive and unrealistic.
Anytime we want to partner with a person we have to be willing to accept their limitations and work WITH them as they are. Both you and he are trying to control and change each other. Unhealthy, disfunctional and counterproductive.
Furthermore, she who suggested going at the pace of the slowest partner had a very valid point, assuming the slow partner is actively working towards resolution of their issues.
BUT he who said that in order to minimize the fear and insecurity reactions U HAVE TO GO FACE THE TRIGGERS REPEATEDLY WITHOUT TRYING TO ALTER THEM UNTIL THEY STOP TRIGGERING YOU, also had a valid point.
If you want to overcome the fear, you gotta let the situation happen so that in the end you see that you survived it.
 
1. He thinks the only acceptable response to him finding someone he's interested in is enthusiasm from me, since that is what he gives me. I don't know if I can ever achieve this, even though I agree it would be the most desirable response.
It would be great if no one ever had negative emotions. That's not going to happen. It's an unrealistic goal. Tell him to get over it. This is hard. Being poly is not as "easy" as being mono. Lots more people to consider. Lots of feelings. Lots of lots of lots of lots of stuff. See what I'm getting at here?
2. He thinks that if I am not interested in dating this girl, I am not behaving acceptably (within the framework of being poly) by ever saying no. I should have given it a shot, despite the issues I raised, or encouraged him to date her on his own since I'm not interested.
Behaving acceptably? So you're never allowed to say no? Why does he even bother asking then? Maybe you should have given it a shot. Maybe you should encourage him. I don't know. I don't know either of them. But taking "no, that's not a good idea" off the table is a horrible suggestion.
3. He does not think he should have to "police" his behavior, e.g., not flirting with her after we discussed and agreed (or so I thought) that she was not a good option for dating. In principle I agree with this, but a huge trigger for me feeling jealous/insecure is when I feel like my feelings are not being considered, which is how the flirting made me feel.
I don't want my wife flirting and hanging all over someone when we're in public. She should police that. There are appropriate places for appropriate behavior. I love seeing my wife with other men. I do not love seeing her in situations that make me uncomfortable. This made you uncomfortable. Tell him to stop being insensitive to your feelings.
My takeaway from all of this is that there is no fucking way I will ever be "poly enough" for him.
Stop. Right there. Not a foot further. There is no such thing as "poly enough". There are varying degrees of poly in the essence that you enjoy "crushing from afar", dating casually, dating seriously, and multiple marriages. All of these are poly. You are either poly or you aren't. That defines YOU. Being poly does not immediately mean you aren't going to have jealousy or insecurity or reservations. Those things involve HIM. You can be poly until the cows come home, doesn't mean you won't recognize a bad situation when you see it. Poly does NOT equal "slut" (I put it in quotes because the ethical sluts are trying to take that word back).
I am willing to work so hard to try to find a middle ground, and I thought that agreeing to date people together and me seeking out people who I thought were good options (which I have been doing) showed that I was committed and trying. I am in therapy trying to get over my jealousy/insecurity issues and most of it centers around not feeling loved/important in my relationship. I agree that the things he's asking for should ideally be happening, I would love to be able to be happy for him, and for him to date separately, and for everyone to be happy. But since I can't do that now, and am working toward it, I feel like he is being a huge spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum since he can't get his way all the time.

I hope that all made sense. Please, any help or advice or words of wisdom would be appreciated.
Yeah. People have problems with feeling loved/important and having jealousy/insecurity. It happens. It sucks. He needs to be more supportive and less insensitive, because for every step you take in the confines of your counseling and trying to build it up will get crushed and send you even further back when you're outside of the safety of your counselors office and in the real world. One is theory, the other is practice. You're excelling in theory, but it's impossible to succeed in practice unless you have a safety net. Tell him to be that safety net.

You go as slow as the slowest person. Not as quick as the fastest.

Some brief thoughts.

I don't think that only dating together is in any way a good compromise. It's not some middle ground, it's just a dysfunctional approach to dating that I honestly don't believe has a chance of working out well in the current climate of your relationship. Why put the both of you, and another person, through that just for the sake of an ideal of compromise? I apologize if that sound harsh, but it's as clear as I can put it.
Agreed. I'll elaborate more on this later.

I understand that dating together is pretty unpopular around these parts, but honestly I think it is a pretty hard rule for me. The more experiences we have, the more certain I am of that. I think it's possible that our relationship could evolve to include separate relationships, but that would be a long way off.
Incorrect. My wife and I would greatly like someone we could share. It's just really, really hard to find that, especially when you guys aren't super strong on your own. People on here look down on it because most people treat it like unicorn hunting. You guys are concerned about the two of you but not the unicorn. Don't be a unicorn poacher. Hunt in season only. Do not trespass on the wildlife preserve.

As far as it being a hard limit, that's important. Right now it's a hard limit. You should set a re-evaluation date of 6 months. In 6 months, still hard limit? Soft limit now? You'd still prefer a unicorn but you'd accept another couple or maybe even separate dating so long as everyone's needs are being met?

If it's truly a hard limit, lay down the law. Don't tell him it's a hard limit and then back off when he breaks boundaries. He flirted after you told him not to. That's not cool.
As far as involving someone else in our dysfunction, I agree that is to be avoided, but I don't think dating separately gets around that at all.
No, it doesn't. I don't think you two should date anyone at all until you guys are stronger in your relationship.
We already took a 1 month break for me to get my head together; I think if I asked for 6 months he would consider it stalling.
How do you know that? Ask him. The worst he can do is say no. Don't get mad when he says no. It's a discussion about dating, not a life-threatening surgery. Be happy if he compromises and gives you another month. Something has to change, and you shouldn't be assuming what he's going to do because of what he's done in the past. Every day is a new day.
By people who are not appropriate, I mean all kinds of things -- people who are not interested in either of us, people who are not interested in poly, people who are in very dysfunctional situations, etc.
That is so ambiguous it's not even useful. Of course he's going to break this.

I'll make a pretend list for you. Change the answers as you see fit.

Hard Limits:
No Family
No Friends
No exes

Soft Limits:
No one with a currently dysfunctional relationship (meaning, you shouldn't date anyone because you guys are currently in this category, so you're subjecting someone else to something YOU aren't comfortable with)
No one not currently in poly situations or poly-accepting
No one not interested in both you and me (they could be interested in one and end up liking the other, so I filed this under soft limit)
 
I understand that dating together is pretty unpopular around these parts, but honestly I think it is a pretty hard rule for me. The more experiences we have, the more certain I am of that. I think it's possible that our relationship could evolve to include separate relationships, but that would be a long way off.

I'm guessing here, but it almost sounds like you might want a more "swinging" or FWB type dynamic, while you try and adjust. That's ok, as long as whatever partner you try and bring in is aware of it. This is a point that needs to be clear between the two of you as well.

I am currently watching some friends go through hell right now as their triad imploded. Things that could be ignored for years between the married couple, became magnified and unbearable as the girlfriend said "the hell with this" and tried to walk away. I'm not sure if the bad behavior got worse or each party just realized how bad things really were only after they subjected a third party to their mess, who pointed a spotlight on everything. It is heartbreaking on all fronts.
 
A couple clarifying points...

Incorrect. My wife and I would greatly like someone we could share. It's just really, really hard to find that, especially when you guys aren't super strong on your own. People on here look down on it because most people treat it like unicorn hunting. You guys are concerned about the two of you but not the unicorn. Don't be a unicorn poacher. Hunt in season only. Do not trespass on the wildlife preserve.

I hear you on this and am surprised it has to be told to people, honestly. One of my biggest reservations about this particular friend was that there is NO WAY this would be a good situation for her. My partner for some reason is convinced that he is some kind of sex god who will enlighten her and help her discover her sexuality.

In terms of the limits, I know my list was ambiguous, I don't think it really makes sense to come up with a list a priori. It seems to me these decisions have to be made on a case by case basis, you know?
 
A couple clarifying points...



I hear you on this and am surprised it has to be told to people, honestly. One of my biggest reservations about this particular friend was that there is NO WAY this would be a good situation for her. My partner for some reason is convinced that he is some kind of sex god who will enlighten her and help her discover her sexuality.

In terms of the limits, I know my list was ambiguous, I don't think it really makes sense to come up with a list a priori. It seems to me these decisions have to be made on a case by case basis, you know?

I was using categories as an example. You should discuss everything. Leaving stuff to chance is silly.

Things that must be discussed on a case-by-case go in "soft limits" category. Things that will always be no go in hard limit category. You will never be alright if he wants to date your mom. Hard limit. You will never be alright if he wants to date your sister. Or your best friend. Those are hard limits. So spell them out. Don't be ambiguous, or you leave room for him to go "you didn't say no until we discussed it just now and you're being unfair".
 
Just want to point out something that seems rather obvious to me, but I'm not sure you see it.

That friend of yours -- a virgin, not into poly, and actively dislikes your partner.

Then he hits on her.

Is there really any wonder she flaked on getting together with you and said not nice things to you?

And your partner is blaming you. What a load of crap. He definitely does need to police himself, or you won't have any friends left.

I've read your other threads. What it comes down to, as I see it, is your current partner doesn't respect you and you wind up trying to twist yourself into a pretzel to please him, but it never works. You don't know how to be true to yourself anymore. If I were you, I would take six months apart from your partner to re-evaluate everything, not just poly. And by that, I mean, whether you want to stay with him or not. You need to get a hold of yourself, remember who you are without someone else to validate that for you, and find satisfaction within. I don't know why you stay with him - he undermines your emotional well-being and sense of self-esteem. Remember, loving someone just isn't enough.
 
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I second Cindie's sentiments. It just sounds like he's pretty much gonna do what he wants, and you're expected to come around to the notion as quickly as possible without consideration from him about your feelings.

See how this is problematic for you as a person and also as the other party in this relationship? And then you react in ways that are unbecoming and immature. So much sitdown time needs to be had here. You need to figure out if the relationship as a whole is worth it in the first place.
 
I'm with nycindie and arrowbound. He's got no respect for boundaries -- hitting on that girl who is NOT into him. And you?

1. He thinks the only acceptable response to him finding someone he's interested in is enthusiasm from me, since that is what he gives me. I don't know if I can ever achieve this, even though I agree it would be the most desirable response.

In other words -- "Do what I want when I say! That is the only acceptable here! I like this chick. Therefore your response should be yippeee! Whether you really feel that or not. Because I say so!"

He's decided he owns you AND your feelings AND how you should behave. Did you give him permission to do this? I doubt it!

2. He thinks that if I am not interested in dating this girl, I am not behaving acceptably (within the framework of being poly) by ever saying no. I should have given it a shot, despite the issues I raised, or encouraged him to date her on his own since I'm not interested.

The only valid part there is for you guys NOT to date a couple. The rest is more of his railroading you to get his way.

Not only is it acceptable to say "No" -- you have the RIGHT to say "yes" or "no" about who gets access to your mind, body, heart and soul. YOU belong to YOU. YOU decide who you share yourself with. You may reconsider why you share yourself with this guy. He is not respectful of you at all. :(

3. He does not think he should have to "police" his behavior, e.g., not flirting with her after we discussed and agreed (or so I thought) that she was not a good option for dating. In principle I agree with this, but a huge trigger for me feeling jealous/insecure is when I feel like my feelings are not being considered, which is how the flirting made me feel.

Why are you surprised he does not want to police his behaviour? He does not want to HAVE to consider your feelings at all.

He doesn't give a damn if the chick has boundaries.

He doesn't care if you do either.

He wants what he wants when HE wants it, screw everyone else.

I'm sorry if that is Hard to Hear. But he's just... ugh. :mad:

You put your foot down on this and tell it like it is to YOURSELF first. Then him. And hold your head high.

No, you are not in charge of him or his actions. He is in charge of his actions.
But you have a LIMIT. And if he chooses to do X, then you will choose Y and walk out the door.

Everyone is a free agent. Everyone choose how they want to be. Cannot be fairer than that.

If you cannot agree on how to be in right relationship and honor that? Just don't have a relationship. Problem solved. And you don't have to suffer heartache with a guy who has no boundaries any more.

Thppt. He's incredibly FRESH.

GalaGirl
 
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GalaGirl, I completely agree, but he feels like he has done nothing but consider my feelings. I can't believe how we can see things so oppositely.

It is as clear to me as it is to everyone else that this relationship is not going to work out, but it is really difficult to come to terms with that. This will be the hardest breakup I have ever had, and I have had some doozies.
 
Let him own his own baggage. If he cannot see how he's got a messed up value system that costs him relationships -- his prob. He might consider your feelings for a millisecond but in the end his wants trump yours. So screw ya. And when he screws you, he still expects to get a smiley face sticker from you for his deigning to think of you for a tiny millisecond? Wow!

You own your own baggage and get thee OUT of this nonsense. You deserve better.

I am so sorry you are enduring this. :(

But hard, swift, fast, clean. CHOP.

That gets YOU to the healing place faster than dragging it on. Breaking up sucks for a while before it gets better. But never ending suckage? That's worse!

hugs
GG
 
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I know this is just my sadness speaking, but suppose he comes home (he's gone for the weekend) and we discuss and he agrees he's in the wrong on everything...do you think it can still be saved?
 
If he plays you the song you most want to hear? And there's no real change? Just lather, rinse, repeat? He is just stringing you along for more suckage. Is that what you want?

How many strikes on this boundary tresspassing issue is he on? In my world, it is 3 strikes yer OUT. You do not need to be with a non-serious player.

And you are the one actually there, so only you know how many strikes he's banked already.

Me? You SAY you know it is doomed. So respect your OWN limit and take care of your own buckets -- protect your emotional health, mental health, physical health, spiritual health. Don't ignore your own self.

GG
 
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This will be the hardest breakup I have ever had, and I have had some doozies.

Okay, it will be hard. Or maybe it won't be as hard as you think, if only you would open your eyes and see the real person you're with who treats you so disrespectfully, and not the fantasy person you keep wishing he would be. Either way, hard or not so hard to do, that's life. You break up, you grieve, you move on and create a better life with more respectful relationships.

I wanted to die when my husband left me without any warning. We were together 12 years and then he decides he wants out and leaves. WTF? I literally felt like the planet would be better off without me, I was so forlorn and lost and felt like an utter failure. It was fucking hard. Well, I survived and life got better. Now I have had wonderful experiences in my love life, which wouldn't have happened if I was still with my ex! Each relationship teaches you about the next, and the next, and the next. So what if breaking up is hard? It is your life raft. It's okay to be sad, to be mournful, but get in that boat and save yourself! Someone better for you is out there if you let go of this one.

I know this is just my sadness speaking, but suppose he comes home (he's gone for the weekend) and we discuss and he agrees he's in the wrong on everything...do you think it can still be saved?
Ahem. Hasn't he ever admitted to being wrong before? And what happened. Look where you are again. It doesn't matter what he says if his actions prove otherwise. He is narcissistic and only wants you to serve his needs. He doesn't care enough about you, look at everything he's put you through. Don't be so afraid to take a stance, hon. This is your life!
 
I just keep thinking that I'm in the wrong, and if I could just get to where he is with the poly stuff, we wouldn't have any problems. He gives me full support and autonomy to pursue anything I want. This is literally the only thing we fight about, but obviously, the fights are bad.

Also, if anyone can weigh in on this... I don't know how to deal with the friend who unknowingly started this all. I am going to see her at a party tomorrow, and I guess I can try to unconvincingly pretend everything's fine? Or I can tell her what actually happened, or give her some kind of fake version? I have no idea what to do.
 
I just keep thinking that I'm in the wrong, and if I could just get to where he is with the poly stuff, we wouldn't have any problems. He gives me full support and autonomy to pursue anything I want. This is literally the only thing we fight about, but obviously, the fights are bad.

You are not in the wrong. Though he may have messed up your head. Consider taking highlighter to the tactics at speak out loud.

You keep flipping back and forth between seeing how terrible this is, and trying to minimize his badness. You also minimize your own hurt and your own importance. :(

Do not play that down like it's a minor thing. This is not a quibble over Crest vs Colgate and just going "To each their own toothpaste!" This is core values stuff -- he does NOT respect your boundaries or honor your saying NO.

This is NOT ethical polyamory.

Also, if anyone can weigh in on this... I don't know how to deal with the friend who unknowingly started this all.

Leave her unknowing. It is not her business. Focus your energies on getting YOU to a healing place. Not spreading it thin on side issues. You can always reconnect with her LATER. Unless you plan to ask her for help in getting you out of this or something... it's just another side distraction.

Be honest with yourself here. You are unhappy in this relationship.

Why do you want to pretend to someone everything is ok when it isn't?

Stop avoiding. Do what you need to do to get OUT.

GG
 
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You are not in a wrong. Though he may have messed up your head. Consider taking highlighter to the tactics at speak out loud.

You keep flipping back and forth between seeing how terrible this is, and trying to minimize his badness. :(

This is NOT ethical polyamory.

Thanks, believe me that I am reading every word you are writing and taking it very much to heart. I see what you mean about flipping back and forth, the problem is that I think that we are both right, and we are both wrong, at the same time.

I looked through the pdf and to my relief none of it fit except one, he tells me that I can't expect any better (this sat very badly with me when he said it to me). I think it's less about him putting me down and more about this weird narcissism he displays in certain circumstances; I think in his mind no better partner exists. So he thinks that he is right in all disagreements we have with respect to our relationship, and he thinks this friend he was interested in (who isn't interested in him, or polyamory) would be so enlightened by being with him. I have no idea how he got this way, and it only comes out when we are talking about dating.
 
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