the story of a secondary

"Contribution = commitment
Commitment = impact
Impact = importance
Importance determines primary or secondary"

Thinking more about this primary/secondary thing. This is a quote from Mono, posting in the General Discussion board about a year ago. It makes a lot of sense to me. It also makes me wonder.

If I'm committed to my relationship with Gia (not wiling to compromise it or let it go unless it radically changes or unless I have some compelling reason to move far away), if I'm contributing to childcare, if I think of her and her family as my family... am I becoming something more like primary to her? And does SHE think of it in at all the same way, or even see that as a remote, far-future possibility? I don't think I really needed one more thing to chew over, and this is pretty damn academic right now, but it's got me thinking.
 
And another thing... it seems like people don't expect secondary relationships to be strong and healthy. Is it just that so many aren't? Is it really so unusual that even though my gf is married, she's never tried to hide our relationship from our friends, she told her parents when it came down to that or us hiding from them, and that she's even shared it with some of her coworkers? Is it so unusual that her husband has never tried to limit our expressions of emotional or physical intimacy, that he welcomes me?

Is it just that I ask for so little that I never bump up against boundaries that would wound me? I don't insist on much of anything in particular... I make my needs and desires known when I think they can reasonably be fulfilled, and generally stay quiet about them when I realize they can't.

I'm a naturally giving person, assertive yet submissive (a sexual and relational tendency that Gia particularly brings out in me and that I find delightful when I can indulge it), and independent. Without those qualities, would this relationship model work?
 
Still working my way through the ginormous Primary/Secondary thread in the Gen section. Interesting thought on the issue of a new person getting involved with people in an existing relationship from CielDuMatin:

"While I don't feel that it is to be avoided whenever possible, I think it's like buying a used car - you need to look at things very very carefully, and with a skeptical eye to make sure that everything is as it truly seems."

I bought a used Chevy pretty quickly several years ago and it caused me regular problems that were really annoying. I was much slower in picking out my next car, a used Honda, which has served me extraordinarily well for the last two years. Gotta be picky. :)
 
Ok! I think I found a piece of writing that succinctly and pretty fully covers my thoughts on the question of the utility of the idea of secondary relationships... it focuses a lot on how to handle secondary relationships so that they're healthy and validates that they're real, important, not disposable... and yet still different from primary relationships.

I find that way more useful than just trying to throw out definitions entirely and say that all labels are bad. We think in words, so having definitions helps us talk and work through things. I also find it way more useful than saying that all relationships should be equal. In my experience that just isn't the case for most people, even if it might be a long-term goal. Preexisting commitments and relationships that involve significant life-entanglement (marriage, house, kids) end up taking precedence, so whether you call them primary or not, they're different from newer relationships (whether you call those secondary or not!).

I want to feel proud of my relationship, proud of the definition that seems to fit it best, and proud of the name of this blog, even if I end up picking a new name eventually. This essay helps me do that.

http://www.polyfamilies.com/polysecondary.html
 
Damn it. :( The babysitting plans for tonight have been canceled due to hurricane, and, because of various scheduling issues, now I won't see G/E/B for at least 11 days, possibly as much as two weeks. Boooooo. The scheduling issues are basically all mine -- I've got rehearsals for a play that'll go up in late September and I'm going out of town with friends. So it's not like I'm going to be sitting at home moping, quite the opposite. I'll be out in the world being busy and moping. :p

I just miss them. I feel like I ought to be there with them, even though that doesn't make sense for the ways our lives are structured.
 
I had another dream about Jay last night. I don't remember it very well, but I know we were talking... finishing up the conversation that got cut off when I woke up the other day?

Normally my dreams are a non-stop smorgasbord of craziness with just occasional mundane stuff thrown in, so when I dream about my mundane life, especially with any consistency, I pay attention because I assume my brain is trying to tell me something or trying to work something out.

Interesting.
 
Hi Annabel--

I've enjoyed reading this whole thread and your experiences. I'm pregnant myself, and I have a loving husband and also a guy on the side. Things are uncertain with this guy and it's been interesting to see how your relationships are working and changing as you add a baby to the mix.

I don't think it's going to be easy and I admire what you're doing.
 
Hi Annabel--

I've enjoyed reading this whole thread and your experiences. I'm pregnant myself, and I have a loving husband and also a guy on the side. Things are uncertain with this guy and it's been interesting to see how your relationships are working and changing as you add a baby to the mix.

I don't think it's going to be easy and I admire what you're doing.

Thanks, Michelle. :) And yes, workable, worth it, but definitely not easy.
 
I've been on here a lot the past few weeks, reading other people's stories, re-reading my own story, and writing a lot, almost obsessively. A few nights ago it all sort of came to a head. I had a jumble of thoughts come together and I sat down and wrote what turned into a 2 and a half page (when pasted into Word) email to Gia and Eric. It covered:

What might being a family look like for us long-term with me not living with them and not co-parenting but staying involved?
The fact that I do think of us as family, or at least I see it as a goal, and I need to know if that vision conflicts with theirs.
How Davis fits in, as the one other person I'd bestow that term upon.
The fact that I love all three of them, in different ways, explicitly including Eric, and want that to be out there.
The fact that even though, yes, we could end up moving apart, that doesn't change things for me.
That it's ok if they're unsure but if their first reaction is "um, she's crazy" then either I need to dial my expectations back or they need to decide to dial theirs up.
That I don't want to disrespect my relationship with Gia by addressing the letter to both of them, but that this is a group question.
That I'm not asking for any change in day to day operations.
That I know it's a weird, uncertain time to be opening this question.
That I'm asking anyway because I just see myself going deeper and deeper in internally and need to know if I ought to pull back.

I hit save instead of send and decided to sit on it for a little while.
 
My decision to hold off came mainly from this.

Looking at things objectively, I can tell that I'm feeling more connected and intense about things than Gia right now. And I specifically told her, during one of our long conversations at the camping event, that I didn't see us doing a lot of heavy bonding and growing right now. She seemed relieved. I said that, and I meant it in the moment, because she's in such a crazy place right now... just going back to work this week, just figuring out childcare, just changing her meds back, anxious and scared a lot, not having sex with her husband yet, just trying to keep it together. Knowing that when it comes to this mom thing she CAN'T fail, no matter what she has to sacrifice.

She doesn't need this from me right now. I know that.

I talked to Davis about it at length. He gave me good, nuanced advice which basically boiled down to the idea that I was making this all about me, that parents in our society are trained to see themselves as a little, nuclear unit, healthy or not, and that me trying to step into that could be really intimidating to them. They could be scared that I'll jump into their child's life in a big way and then hurt him when I leave. Joining a family, he said, is a big, big deal, and it needs to be offered, not asked for.

I asked him if it was hard for him to talk about all that with me and he said no. He really is an amazing man. Bringing it up to him at all should have been scary, but it wasn't. It's like, what's the absolute worst that could happen if he doesn't like something I say? We could break up? Been there, done that. I know from experience that I'd rather split up with him than go on while feeling wrong. It makes everything easier.

So I'm holding off on the family conversation, at least for now. Being strong, giving space. This SO goes against my nature, but I think it's right...
 
What about addressing it to "My Family" and place a cc: at the bottom of who you sent it to and/or add a personal note to each person at the beginning.
 
When the hurricane was hitting, I called Gia and we talked about how, yeah, babysitting plans were definitely off the table. I was grumbling about how much it sucked that we weren't going to be able to see each other for a while and she was like "It just means I'll be that much happier to see you when I do see you!"

Which was nice and chipper but made me feel like, what, it takes distance for you to appreciate me? Am I a bother? Bleh. Insecure, I know, but like I was saying above I feel palpably sometimes how we each are reacting to things very differently right now, and it's a struggle to pull back.

Anyways, I wrote this poem, and that's the last I'll post for now:

Yet and still.

So we're in different places now, well how else could it be?
I still care for you and I know you still care for me
We have that and we have time, as for the rest we'll see

A friend, a lover, family member, all these I could be
Or we could drift apart, it's true, although I still believe
That for someone who sees you like I do you yet have need

To stand beside you, hold you, help you, of these things I dream
But when I reach my hand for yours, that's when your hand recedes
So when you want me, if you need me, you know where I'll be

Seeing to my own affairs, still upright, proud and free
 
Beautiful!

Maybe write that poem for them on a pretty piece of paper and give that, instead of an analytical email. Gets the point across without as much "charge" to it.

I think it depends on how they feel about poetry. Me personally, I would rather a straightfoward explanation on what someone is thinking, and have in the past had problems with fighting the urge to run the other way when someone gave me a poem describing their feelings.

That said, it's a very lovely poem, and you know Eric and Gia best. :)
 
Thanks for the thoughts, ladies. I've decided to not try to get them to give me any further definitions or reassurances right now, whether by email or by poem. Making that firm decision has helped me relax and refocus a little.

I know from experience that when a partner is pulling away my instinct is to cling tighter... and that's not helpful. Gia is looking for some space and lightness in a life that has just become waaaay more crowded and serious. If I try to smoosh us closer together I'm just going to make her want to pull away more. So, I chill out. I back off. And then I notice she's emailing me a little more. When I stop chasing her, that's when she feels safe enough to relax and reach out to me.

I don't think I could handle it if it were always this way. I hate those reverse psychology games when you have to pretend you don't want somone in order to get them to want you. But I can handle it for a short while, during this time when she's so overwhelmed that the idea of putting energy into her relationship with me must seem so daunting.

I can be the stronger one right now. I have the strength to spare and she doesn't, and it just comes down to that. I believe in the intimacy we've built together, and I will do what I've been saying I would do all along -- continue to be patient and to see this through with her.

I cannot *wait* to see her and Bee again. It wouldn't do me any harm to see Eric either, but it's my lady and her son that I'm thinking of at the moment.
 
Really good essay by Franklin Veaux of xeromag.com:
Polyamory, Loss, and the Superhuman Soul

In it, he says "real intimacy lets you see right through a person and down deep into what my partner Shelly calls their "superhero soul," past appearance and past superficial details and into what makes them who they are."

In this I recognize what Gia and I have done together -- what it means to actively build a relationship. Talking and sharing and saying the hard things and telling the past hurts and revealing the unusual desires. Emotional intimacy.

Veaux also describes "a sort of wishful, warm fuzzy sensation" that we get from false intimacy, where we feel close to someone even though we haven't seen deep inside them the way you do with real intimacy.

I wonder if that "wishful, warm fuzzy sensation" is a lot of what I feel with Eric. After all, he hasn't let me into his interior life the way Gia has.

And yet, while he may not have poured out his heart to me, he *has* let me deep into his life in other ways... into his home, his bed, his marriage. Surely most would consider that to be some very intimate sharing. And I know he's not an introspective person in the way that Gia and I are... maybe he just doesn't have as much to say.

Another interesting wrinkle is that while he may not have ever told me his most private thoughts, he's heard plenty of mine just because he's been within earshot when I've been talking to Gia.

It's not a simple situation, to be sure, so I guess it makes sense that I've let myself dwell on it so much!
 
I don't think I could handle it if it were always this way. I hate those reverse psychology games when you have to pretend you don't want somone in order to get them to want you. But I can handle it for a short while, during this time when she's so overwhelmed that the idea of putting energy into her relationship with me must seem so daunting.

I don't really see this as one of those "games" people play-- like playing hard to get so that the person will chase you. What I see is that you are recognizing that Gia needs space, and even though you would prefer to see her all of the time, you are respecting that need and giving her the time she needs. Because you are doing this for her, she is getting to have space and is feeling appreciative and closer to you and freer to contact you.

This isn't a manipulative game-- it's being a good partner. :)
 
I don't really see this as one of those "games" people play-- like playing hard to get so that the person will chase you. What I see is that you are recognizing that Gia needs space, and even though you would prefer to see her all of the time, you are respecting that need and giving her the time she needs. Because you are doing this for her, she is getting to have space and is feeling appreciative and closer to you and freer to contact you.

This isn't a manipulative game-- it's being a good partner. :)

Thanks, Minx. :) I want to be a good partner but I'm also afraid of rejection, so I often find myself wondering about these things... like, am I refraining from mentioning my feelings for Eric because I'm respecting his statement that he doesn't want a relationship OR because I'm a coward... or, third and more machiavellian option, in order to make him feel comfortable enough to get closer to me so that eventually we CAN have a relationship? A combination of all three, I think.

As long as I'm operating most from motives I feel comfortable with, or at least as long as I'm fairly evenly balanced between motives, I feel like I'm ok. But like the band Scissor Sisters says, "You've got to question your intentions cuz the bad ones kill."
 
Something that SourGirl posted on another thread --
"Nothing worthwhile ever came forced."

I like it... very helpful for me to remember right now.
 
It feels like it's been so long since I've posted, and it's actually been less than a week! Ah, perspective. :)

Davis and I have been very close recently. I think if we were monogamous, I might be having a much harder time with this relationship. I know that his intentions are serious... he's not pushing for it, but I know that some day he hopes for marriage, maybe kids... so, if we were monogamous, I think I'd be freaking out... asking myself, can I really be with just this guy forever, does he really fulfill all my needs?? Is he really "the one"??? But with poly I can relax a little because if there's a need of mine he doesn't fill I can hypothetically get it filled elsewhere, and I could, in theory, have more than one "the one"s at some point.

So, I can just enjoy my time with him and be chill and see where things go. :)

Thanks, poly!
 
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