going from a V to an N -- do I have to??

No, NY, I didn't mind your summary at all, just wanted to clarify. Details can get pickity persnickity! But I really did appreciate your helpfulness, and ONLY saw it as such. :):)

(BTW -- sending much love to you and your city today).

I haven't yet decided what to do about calling her. Leaning at the moment at NOT doing it -- but that's because I'm feeling a little less scrambled -- because Sundance and I have been together all weekend, and have made love every night, and I'm feeling pretty hopeful about our marriage, even though it has gotten really fucked up! (Literally!)

I must confess that I am considering ending things with Butch. I need to focus on my marriage right now. I don't want a divorce. I don't want my kids finding out/freaking out, about the paramours. I need to simplify my life, deal with the problems that are within my own home, and get a life back that is open and honest. I'm tired of sneaking around with Butch. Discretion is one thing, but this is SECRET. I want to live in the sunlight. If Sundance wants to give up the sneakiness and the thrill of living in the shadows, which I believe deep down he does, then I think he will join me.

I also think that deep down, it may be a relief for Butch, too. (Well, ONE form of relief will end for him, ahhhhhhh. So sad for that.:() We can still be friends but the sexual nature of our relationship will have to end. And for awhile, we will have to keep some distance so that part can heal. I don't think Butch will be too crushed over it -- if so I guess he will deal with it, the same way he has dealt with his emotions all the way throughout our relationship! He will respect me, my feelings, and the marriage I must recommit to. My LOVE for him will never end. But like I've been talking about the past week or so -- love and sex are not the same thing! They don't always have to go hand in hand. Duh. And emotionally, we've always worked to keep a guard up, to refrain from too much romance or sentimentality, so I guess that was a blessing in disguise, after all.

It could have been different. I did have a dream of something beautiful and I grieve the loss of that dream. But what I ended up with fell short of the ideal, to say the least.

For me, I think poly could have only worked if it were OPEN. WIDE open. But I can't do that with people who prefer to live chunks of their life in secrecy, compartmentalizing everything. It took some trial and error to find this out, and painful honesty and humility to admit that maybe it's not going to work for me, for my marriage, for my family.
 
going from a V back to mono, maybe!

Can hardly believe I am actually changing directions, AGAIN! What a journey this has been.
 
Everyone's telling Carma to call Barbie and tell her the truth. The only problem is: if Barbie hears it from Carma, she won't believe any of it. Would you believe the polyamorous rantings from your boyfriend's "crazy" wife?

Unfortunately, Barbie is going to have to hear it from Sundance.
 
I don't think I'm going to have to tell her anything. I'm going to just focus on my marriage and let the rest take care of itself. That sounds very simplistic, but I think it may work. I may have to be patient, and it's not going to happen overnight. And I'm loving this IDEA today, but actually following through with it is not going to be so easy. Me and my ideals.:rolleyes:
 
Yeah, it sounds like this may be best. I think there will always be that question -- did Sundance handle things so poorly in order to manipulate into leaving Butch? -- but in the end it doesn't really matter. If your marriage is the most important thing to you, and it can't survive poly, then the poly's gotta go. It's certainly not like you haven't tried. I do hope that with a little time and space and a new counselor, Sundance can deal with his anger and dishonesty issues, and you can deal with your tendency to blame yourself for things. *hug!!*
 
Dear Anna,
THANK YOU. Your kind words mean so much right now. :)
 
Everyone's telling Carma to call Barbie and tell her the truth. The only problem is: if Barbie hears it from Carma, she won't believe any of it. Would you believe the polyamorous rantings from your boyfriend's "crazy" wife?

Unfortunately, Barbie is going to have to hear it from Sundance.
It would be Barbie's problem to believe it or not, at least she would have been told.

Carma: Are you sure leaving Butch would be best? Do you have problems with Butch as you do with Sundance? Is it really worth hurting someone who has done nothing wrong, to keep someone happy who can't even tell the truth?
At the end of the day, that is your decision and you know what is best for you. I'd just like to know why you would let Butch go, assuming he has done nothing wrong in your relationship together to deserve it.
 
It would be Barbie's problem to believe it or not, at least she would have been told.

Carma: Are you sure leaving Butch would be best? Do you have problems with Butch as you do with Sundance? Is it really worth hurting someone who has done nothing wrong, to keep someone happy who can't even tell the truth?
At the end of the day, that is your decision and you know what is best for you. I'd just like to know why you would let Butch go, assuming he has done nothing wrong in your relationship together to deserve it.

Thanks for your questions, Sg. Making me do the thinking work today. :rolleyes:

I'm still freaking out a bit about what Barbie is being told, and what I'm being told, that isn't true, or at least, is only partially true. Makes me completely crazy. So I am trying like hell to just focus on my own choices today. Today I am choosing not to be intimate with Butch.

I'm kinda treating this like a recovery program. I was powerless over the extramarital relationships and my life had become unmanageable.

Butch has done nothing wrong. But our relationship was not "real." We met once or twice a week, with no kids around us, no outside distractions, just the two of us and a mattress. Focused 100% on one another. Other than that, EVERYTHING was restricted, compartmentalized, limited, restrained. We'd text or talk on the phone only occasionally. We did have some really great heart-to-hearts, I must say, but again, it was when no one was around and we had the luxury of giving one another undivided attention. He talked about his life and the challenges he's going through, and I tried to listen selflessly and keep my own problems out of it. I didn't want to burden him -- he already has enough over his head. I have Sundance; he has no one. I also never wanted to play a sympathy card - use him as a shoulder to cry on. I didn't want to need him. The only need I took to Butch? Was the need to love him. He let me do that, and I know he had to let go some male pride in order to do that.

YES, I realize there are going to be snorkers out there, who say, "Oh, so he LET you fuck him, how noble! And how altruistic of you, carma, to give sex for nothing." Someone even said once, only the STUPID whores don't get paid. I can honestly tell you the only "payment" I ever wanted was knowing I made his life better, even for a moment.

But it got to the point where, if he knew how badly my own life was sucking from it, he'd want it to stop too. He isn't a charity case! He never asked me to sacrifice everything for his sake.

That's a big key: he never asked. I just self-appointed. Assumed he had too much pride to ask.

He never wanted more than a temporary thing with me. He never wanted to be the cause of my marriage breaking apart. In truth, he just wants to focus on his kids right now, that and looking for a better job. If I had come to him with all my emotions -- or even a fraction of them -- he would have told me to go away, that he couldn't take the drama. I was not being completely honest with him, in that regard, because I was hiding my emotions, to spare him. Well, I was doing a good job at it until Sundance had another woman falling in love with him and I realized, this is not the life I want to have. Both of us splitting ourselves in two, holding back here, giving 95% there, being 100% present in bed with another man, then not speaking to that man for days in order to respect my husband.....

My life is fucked up people.
 
Take heart, Carma. Your life is not that fucked up. Emotions can be a bit messy, that's all, but you're not fucked up for having emotions.

It's not logistically easy to juggle husbands and wives and boyfriends and girlfriends and kids and life and jobs. It was all getting to be too much, right? Think of this as decluttering, a chance to catch your breath and live a simpler life for awhile.

That special alone time you had with Butch (you, him, bed) you can have with your husband. In fact, I'd demand it. Your kids are teenagers, right? No need for a babysitter even. Get a hotel and spend some re-connecting time.

... he has broken it off with the girlfriend, right?
 
He SAYS he has.......

We will see. She lives near his work, 2 hours away. So it will be easy for him to sneak during the day, while he's at work 9-5, but damn near impossible to sneak when he's not.

i.e. If he sneaks, I will find out.

But I don't think he wants to sneak, or intends to. It will depend on many factors. Like, if she keeps pursuing him. Or if I have a bad day and he feels like my time of making amends was just a ploy to manipulate him into breaking up with her. He has even made the joke, "Oh, sure, just when I was starting to have some fun, you call the whole thing off!"

No matter how much fun he was having with her, it can't be fun to come home and watch your wife falling to pieces.

I do not want him to be miserable! But for awhile, we are going to have to face the unpleasant issues in our marriage, and not keep sweeping them under the rug, or blaming them on the outside relationships, or ESCAPING into the outside relationships! On the flip side, I am so relieved not to be juggling anymore, it does feel wonderful to pour my heart into Sundance. So it's not all bad! But I don't want to be unrealistic, either.

I think he feels like he forgave me for cheating (back before we made our "poly pact"), therefore I will forgive him if he cheats. I hope he realizes that two wrongs will not make this right. I am trying to make it very clear that I will not tolerate him cheating. The lies are bad enough. We have some honesty and trust to work on, for sure.
 
He has even made the joke, "Oh, sure, just when I was starting to have some fun, you call the whole thing off!"

I find this joke vaguely disturbing because I seem to recall he was the one who called it off. He didn't want to change the way he was relating to his girlfriend, and said that he wanted to continue the way things were (where you girls didn't meet and he could tell her lies about you) or end both relationships. What were you supposed to choose?

I kind of feel like he put you in a difficult position and then is now blaming you for it, albiet jokingly.
 
I find this joke vaguely disturbing because I seem to recall he was the one who called it off. He didn't want to change the way he was relating to his girlfriend, and said that he wanted to continue the way things were (where you girls didn't meet and he could tell her lies about you) or end both relationships. What were you supposed to choose?

I kind of feel like he put you in a difficult position and then is now blaming you for it, albiet jokingly.

MZ, you make a VERY good point. It certainly sheds some light! The perspective helps -- I have been wallowing in guilt intermittently. Beating myself up quite a bit.

It seems that throughout my marriage, I have tried to overcompensate for every weakness I perceive of Sundance's. If he spends too much, I will scrimp. If he gets his hair done once every 3 weeks, I will go every 3 months. He eats a lot, I'll eat nothing. He watches tv, I watch none. He won't delay gratification in any way, I will deprive myself till it reaches the point of desperation. He won't read, I'll read EVERYTHING I can get my hands on. He won't take responsibility for a problem we have, I'LL take responsibility for the whole thing (because only then will I be able to FIX it,right?!?)....

The thing is, no matter how I tried to make up for things, I only overwhelmed the hell out of myself. So I started to shut down. I am a perfectionist, so if I can't do it perfectly, I won't do it AT ALL. If he's going to keep swirling, I will FREEZE.

Thank you for pointing this out as you did -- because I've been talking to my mother (who thinks poly is immoral and impossible and is SOOOO glad I've finally come to my senses) and she really has no sympathy for me in this, whatsoever. She just points out, "Well, what have you been doing to him for 4 years?" Which amazes me, because she has known (and sypathized!) about my feelings for Butch throughout the entire journey! She knows how hard I struggled. She knows how hard I fought loving him, because of the MORAL dilemma. She knows I did not cave in and start up an affair with him out of malice, that I never wanted to hurt my husband, that I was devastated by what I thought was a betrayal of my heart -- and of GOD, even. The ONLY thing that felt right then was to fill Butch's need. When this all began, yes, I realized what was at stake, I realized I could lose everything. But somewhere inside of me, it actually felt SELFISH to sit and watch him suffer, while I chose my cushy life instead. How could i be happy while I watched him hurting right in front of my eyes, every damn day???

Maybe I didn't learn boundaries growing up (well, I didn't) and maybe I didn't have the sense enough to realize where this could lead. But I loved him, and I'm not ashamed that I tried my best to honor the love I felt. And I DID try to set a boundary of honor, too -- that it couldn't go to a sexual arena, because that would pervert the purity of my heart, blah blah blah. I fought, I tried, I failed. I acted on the love and I do not have to be ashamed or full of regret for that.

Now I gave Butch up, not because Sundance was finally having fun! But because I was suffering too much from his lying behavior. Ending things with Butch was the only way to put a stop to the train wreck that my life was becoming. I love Butch and I love Sundance, but if I don't show MYSELF any love or respect, I am going to disintegrate.
 
Now I gave Butch up, not because Sundance was finally having fun! But because I was suffering too much from his lying behavior.
Please please please please please make sure Sundance knows this, in no uncertain terms!!!

Ending things with Butch was the only way to put a stop to the train wreck that my life was becoming. I love Butch and I love Sundance, but if I don't show MYSELF any love or respect, I am going to disintegrate.

You made a sacrifice for him because you saw that it was necessary. It was the ultimatum he gave you and you met that ultimatum. It is unfortunate that he looked to you to corral his own bad behavior rather than cultivate his strength of character to do the right thing on his own. I hope eventually Sundance realizes this, and what a sacrifice you made. Are you looking for some therapy/counseling for the both of you?
 
Carma, I understand that you are trying to simplify things and save your marriage, but are you really going to be happy this way? Already you are saying you will forgive him if he cheats...assuming he will. Yet, you've sacrificed your other love, sacrificed your happiness. It's not like giving up Butch will keep Sundance from lying. Please find someone to talk to. I want you to be happy, and stop sacrificing things because you think you need to. The sacrifice needs to be on both sides for it to be a happy marriage. I'm not saying that you shouldn't focus on your marriage, because it sounds like whatever relationship he is in, Sundance wants to be the center of that person's world...it's pretty obvious in his dealings with Barbie. Whether or not you continue in a poly relationship, you need to be able to feel secure and happy...and you need to find someone to talk to so you can overcome your past issues. It sounds like Sundance needs it too, but I'd like to know you are working toward your own happiness, and not just his.
 
Carma, I understand that you are trying to simplify things and save your marriage, but are you really going to be happy this way? Already you are saying you will forgive him if he cheats...assuming he will. Yet, you've sacrificed your other love, sacrificed your happiness. It's not like giving up Butch will keep Sundance from lying. Please find someone to talk to. I want you to be happy, and stop sacrificing things because you think you need to. The sacrifice needs to be on both sides for it to be a happy marriage. I'm not saying that you shouldn't focus on your marriage, because it sounds like whatever relationship he is in, Sundance wants to be the center of that person's world...it's pretty obvious in his dealings with Barbie. Whether or not you continue in a poly relationship, you need to be able to feel secure and happy...and you need to find someone to talk to so you can overcome your past issues. It sounds like Sundance needs it too, but I'd like to know you are working toward your own happiness, and not just his.
Couldn't agree more.

Do you have a limit with Sundance? Is there a point where you would say to yourself, "this is it, I can't give up my own happiness any longer, Sundance must go!"? Because I think if you don't give yourself a limit and stick to it, he may just end up walking all over you.

I really hope it never has to come to that though. That all your problems get solved and you keep your happiness and your sanity! =]
 
Yes, SG, I believe I DO have a limit, and I hope I will know when I've reached it! Haha. Don't worry, I've been wimpy and played victim sometimes, but when it comes down to it I WILL find my backbone (pretty sure I have one :rolleyes:). And with help from people on here like you, I can be strong. ;)

Kea, NY, MZ, thanks -- I'm working on the marriage, but I'm not going to lose myself on the way. Love you, sisters. :)
 
Yes, SG, I believe I DO have a limit, and I hope I will know when I've reached it! Haha. Don't worry, I've been wimpy and played victim sometimes, but when it comes down to it I WILL find my backbone (pretty sure I have one :rolleyes:). And with help from people on here like you, I can be strong. ;)

Kea, NY, MZ, thanks -- I'm working on the marriage, but I'm not going to lose myself on the way. Love you, sisters. :)
Everyone knows when they've hit their limit. The point is to never get yourself there. =] Keep us all updated on the happenings. =]
 
Moderators, I think I need help!

Can you figure this out -- I've got a blog "Turnabout," and this thread, both kinda dealing with the same stuff. I'm repeating myself, having parallel conversations, developing a split personality or something! Can you recommend something?
 
Can you recommend something?

Pick one? (The mono way)

or

Realize that a single thread cannot be all things, and allow each to fill it's roll as best it can...one for support & affirmation, the other for open discussion and hard analysis. (the Poly-ish solution)

:cool:
Lube!
 
MOD HAT ON:

Well i could merge the threads. You were the one who started this in General Discussions so it was taken at face value that you wanted a discussion about going from a V to an N.

Is that what you want? Both threads merged together and placed in Life Stories and Blogs?

MOD HAT OFF:

I'll add that it's helpful to know what you want before you ask people to give you what you want. Other people can't read your mind. This is just a general comment toward the subject of your blog/discussion thread which i have been following somewhat but haven't felt like participating (and still dont TBH because it's quite a trainwreck at this point).
 
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