Religion and its hold

redevil

New member
I am not a very religious person, having attended church sporadically as a child and more for the social aspects then true unwavering faith in one particular church. The family that I married into is religious. They aren't really overzealous but rather the nature of their religion is at times one that evokes strong responses. These are people who feel so "connected" to their church (I hesitate to say faith because it seems more of a habitual thing) that they have traveled 18+ hours for a wedding in which much of the family was not allowed to be present, they give a "tithing" that often requires them to then turn to the church for assistance and stay married while miserable and in separate bedrooms for going on 8 years. The way things are done in the church leaves them grappling to deal with our life (haven't even gone down the Poly road!) with me as a person and doesn't allow them to see their son as the person he is.

Because of the teachings of the church (I know this seems to be stereotyping but I know of support groups within the Poly community back home for this) Lobster comes into this with a LOT of self imposed guilt. I know that some of the guilt comes from being a very mono minded person however the extent of it's reach... The thoughts that the poly discussion came up because of lacking in something, of not being enough, I understand. Actually much of the sources of guilt I get. What blindsides me every time is these moments of peace with the situation, these moments of, Wow this isn't as bad as I thought, I'm ok with this and then BAM! Suddenly we are back to day 2, and this is completely wrong and can never be ok. Those moments usually don't last long, and then we are back to the point we were but they are there. It's almost like really on a deep level it makes sense and it's ok but then something comes up to remind him that this was not the way that he was raised (often times a conversation with one of his parents) Usually this not only shakes our poly situation as it is but also his place in every other aspect of life. Suddenly doubts of the kind of father he is are running wild and guilt that his job takes him away, and that it falls on my shoulders..It's a big domino effect after that and takes a long time to get everything back upright.

I don't blame the church or the beliefs, I think a LOT of it has to do with the kind of family Lobster grew up in. However a close friend of my parents' in the poly/swinger community spends much of her free time helping others come to terms with this upbringing as she herself did it. In her case she lost much of her family because of her choice. We have made the conscious decision to keep our choice away from his family for as long as possible. I've gone against his mother many times in the past and she and I have brokered a quiet little peace in which I bite my tongue and she keeps her control through guilt to a minimum.

I guess not being a religious person myself, I don't completely understand how to help Lobster to gain back this part of himself. I do truly feel that a part of him is still very much wrapped up in this religion, in times of stress when I'm not around to help him, he will go back to it like a security blanket. He has not been an active member of the church in about 10 years now, the last few being out of an ultimatum given by his mother. (That helped his issues with the church TONS!) Any advice out there for this..cause I'm drawing a big blank..:confused:
 
I am a sincere Christian, and so I can only say this from my own Christian perspective. If Lobster is an earnest follower of Christ, he should follow CHRIST where Christ leads. Not where the Church leads, or religious tradition, or his family, or his friends, or you or anyone else. Christ alone is 100% trustworthy; nobody else packs the gear.

That being said, a book which helped me a great deal coming to terms as a Christian dealing with these issues is Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition by Philo Thelos.
 
I am an atheist, but I grew up in a Christian household. I also have met many people of many different faiths. I see a lot of guilt associated with religious upbringing.

I think children are very easy to indoctrinate, which is why I think it is hard for some people to easily get rid of their childhood beliefs.

It sounds like Lobster needs to find out what he reallly believes and go with that. Create a foundation of beliefs and see how it works out.

For exanple, he could decide that there is a god and this god's focus is on love. Or he could start with Christianity and figure out which version he wants to be true.

I think the best book to help someone become less religious is to read the Old Testament. But try to read it and ask the question, "What would an outsider to the religion think of this?"

Good luck.
 
..I guess I left out the part that he doesn't believe in organized religion at this point. It's not about a conflict of his beliefs and my beliefs, rather what his upbringing in that faith has left. He will be the first to stand up for certain stigmas associated with the church but he himself isn't interested in attending or participating in that anymore.

What I was trying to get at is the residual effects I guess. Not to sound like I'm bashing or anything like that. Just trying to understand where it comes from is all.
 
I am currently emerging from my crisis in my faith. I was raised in a very strict Christian home. I stuggled alot with many of the teachings and things the church put forth as God's word. Through my own research and study, I am now comfortable with my conclusions and what I believe. Funny thing is my brother has come to some of the same conclussions completely independent of myself. My parents take it as a personal offense that we don't "buy the party line" so to speak. They are convinced that because we don't believe everything they do, that we have rejected God completely.

With just a few words, our parents can make us feel guilty for having a different opinon than they do. They know exactly which buttons to push. The religious groups that scare me the most are those that will have families disown their own children because their children decided to think for themselves and chose an alternate path.
 
What I was trying to get at is the residual effects I guess. Not to sound like I'm bashing or anything like that. Just trying to understand where it comes from is all.
As a kid, I was told that God wants marriages between one man and one woman and they should not divorce. So everyone around me held this as a gold standard of success in life.

But my parents divorced when I was round 9. After they divorced, I noticed that each one was happier. I realized that divorce could be a good thing for some people. At that point, I started to doubt the gold standard.

I played a lot of "why" games. "Why is lifelong marriage the best thing?" "Why was it ok for the people of the past to have more than one wife?" "Why would God want people to stay married and unhappy than divorced and happy."

I just went on a very long introspection and decided to rebuild my foundation of beliefs. Along the way I lost my belief in God. But I knew my morality and felt I could justify it in a consistent manner. I also realized that non-monogamy was ok as long as people were honest with each other.

I don't think there is an easy to get rid of childhood indoctrination other than strong introspection or hanging around long term with people who believe differently.
 
Religion was not meant to harm others..... people do that. i have a diffrent perspective on it all I guess. I take some of what the church says as good.... then some of how they interpret things as the bunk.

I choose to live close to the creator.... and in my heart I know what is right. As does everyone if they choose to listen.
Each religion I feel is part of a bigger puzzle... IMO no one religion has all the answers. Why... because they were not given everything.. after all some things are not our business as humans... and we need to leave what is the Creators... TO the creator and let him take care of his business. And when He wants us to know something.. He'll let us know.... either way. Trust in yourself.... trust in what your heart says... if you ask something.. you already know the answer to.. all questions are answered within yourself... if someone takes the time to sit back and look at things from all angles.

I am not trying to preach or nothing... just stating my point of view.
sometimes the way we are brought up..... has negative effects on our lives... but we learn from that to. And its those lessons that make us who we are. Just so long as what was put onto us as children does not hinder our lives as adults.
 
Am I correct in remembering that Lobster was raised Mormon? IMHO, that is a whole different kettle of fish. Quite far removed from any of the more traditional or even non-denominational fundamentalist Christian churches in the US.

I am only slightly familiar with LDS because I do genealogy, but from what I've seen whenever I go to an LDS research library, is there seems to be much less emphasis on the Bible as there is on the Book of Mormon. It seems to me that people who were raised LDS and leave the church, even if they were dissatisfied with it, do seem to need a little bit of deprogramming. It's very cult-like. Not to say it is a cult, but...

Has Lobster ever visited http://www.exmormon.org ? [Mods: not a commercial link] Good information there for someone who is struggling. They have a page with links to blogs by ex-Mormons. Might be good for Lobster to read them, because it is simply a different experience from other types of Christian religions unfamiliar with important LDS rituals/beliefs, such as sealings, celestial marriages, baptizing deceased ancestors, and so on. Viewpoints from ex-Mormons might help him a lot in coming to terms with some of the issues and doubts he has.
 
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You would be correct, he was raised Mormon. Raised Mormon and by a controlling mother who forced it on him and a father who was fairly standoffish unless it was church related. The guilt and the self destructive thoughts that have come from this...his feeling of responsibility for everything, his guilt for even having feelings..It's too much to bear sometimes, especially for myself who is not an emotional person. I shut down, he clings.

Maybe I shouldn't answer this right now because it's been a rough morning but..I will do it anyways and shake my head for it later.

I see where this behavior comes from, but I don't process guilt trips well, even when I know..and so began the vicious cycle. :( I don't know how to get us out of this cycle. Because this recent situation is what opened his eyes to it, professionals who he's tried to talk to come back to "No no, your issue is that she wants a boyfriend. Divorce her."
 
I was raised with a lot of contradictory attitudes to religion - have some Orthodox Jewish relatives who we were always "not supposed to upset" by having them confronted with the evidence that we were culturally Jewish in my home rather than religiously Jewish. Was sent to a Conservative flavor Jewish Day School which in itself is quite the indoctrination....
I can really understand where Lobster is coming from, though I come from a different religious tradition. Also, because many people I care about are still stuck living under rules from over a thousand years ago that had much to do with the political situation of the time, I feel frustrated that today's leaders leave us stuck under this system, especially when the Jewish system of scriptural interpretation makes staying stuck really unnecessary in my view. In reality I am agnostic (that is, I think there is some kind of purposeful force/Being or Beings running the universe - have no real opinion on its nature though other than I think it is basically benign and it is humans who are busy screwing things up for each other and themselves), however - every once in a while, especially when I have a manic episode of bipolar I get stuck back in the ultra Jewish religious gear, but I hope I have enough self realization at this point to be done with getting stuck like that...)
Still when you associate religion with family and keeping the love of everyone in your family it is a real head trip. Keep being supportive of Lobster and his struggle to figure out his own Spirituality.
 
Relocate

...Raised Mormon and by a controlling mother...

Can you move away, say 500 to 1000 miles? Close enough to visit for major holidays, but too far for a weekend trip. This would provide you with the independence that a relationship needs to establish itself firmly. It might save your marriage.

A controlling mother has ruined many a marriage. Quote Genesis: ...a man will leave his father and mother....

As for the counselors, do a search for kink aware professionals, and find a counselor who understands polyamory. There are professionals who will counsel by telephone, if you can't find one local.
 
Actually we can and do live far far away from his family. :D I currently live about 3000 miles away and Lobster lives about 6000. His job will keep us away as long as we want it to (and we do!) Sadly they still reach out and since we have 4 kids, it's hard to keep them more then an arms length away for their sakes.

Thanks for the advice about the counselors. We currently have an issue with countries and what's available but hopefully soon.
 
sarcasm

isnt religion wonderful,it has done so much so free the human spirit,to guide and instruct us throughout this journey as humans. just wonderful, i cant wait to get to church and be saved.
 
It sounds like Lobster needs to find out what he reallly believes and go with that. Create a foundation of beliefs and see how it works out.

Belief grounded in what? Trouble is, too many people go in search of "beliefs" about "ultimate things" with no groundedness. Such people often only have the library of cultural myths to work from, oftentimes, and so don't have much groundedness in their own Earthy, embodied lives. Is it not obvious, then, that one first needs groundedness in one's own life-experience, the body/Earth ..., before going in search of yet more ungrounded fantasies...? No story or picture satisfies. One has to arrive at ground zero--grounded human experience, to even begin to search for a path.... And a path only leads to one's own true front door.
 
I tend to agree, but I think a lot of introspection will rule out many possible paths. For example, if a person chooses to believe in a god who helps people, then they need to figure out why that god did not help out a child dieing in a mudslide or from hunger.

Or if there is a soul, what does it do? If it is the seat of morality, then why does brain damage change some people's morality and beliefs?

I think this is a very hard thing to do because humans are not naturally very logical about beliefs and worldview. It is very hard to question that which we may hold dear. But I think it does give peace in the long term.

For me, I lost all my religious beliefs and tend to think in more scientific terms because of this. However, that is not the only consistent possibility. One guy I met was a deist. That religious view tends to be very easy to support. Another person I talked to was a Christian who believed that God was so far beyond understanding that allows for many different paths to discover him which covers every religion as well as atheism.
 
Honestly religion is not something that Lobster and I discuss. It is something that interests him greatly (as does politics) while I am the deer in the head lights. I've been baptized, I have loose ideas of my own but it's not something that I'm very involved in at all. I see organized religions as more of a social gathering. We have not attended a church function as a couple in years, and the last time was her mother's church and that was for her and the family rather then ourselves. For him, having grown up Mormon, and being from Utah, this topic is something he can revel in. With that said, he spent years researching, looking for his own little "loophole" to get out. In times of stress, given a chance he will return to the church for comfort. These times are always when he is not home with our family and only when his work allows for it and also provides it.

His family often attempts to guilt him into returning, even blaming me for his disconnect with the church. Our wedding was an issue all in and of itself because I refused to go through the requirements for a Bishop and his family didn't like the idea of the minister at the church I was baptized in or of a friend becoming ordained online. I am comfortable being the scape goat for Lobster. If his family chooses to blame someone I would rather it be me as they can't get in my head the way they do his. Distance has greatly helped this as we no longer attend events for our nephews and holidays and such but it's still there. When our oldest turn 8 (the age when Mormons baptize their children) the pressure from his dad was horrible! No conversation I had with that man ever went without some dig at our daughter's soul. Even now years after we have been married, I get the "If you only understood the importance of a temple marriage.." speech. In particularly frustrated moods I have been known to throw back "Maybe I don't want to be with him for eternity. Maybe I want to be a cougar and find some hot young thing to be with when I'm about 200" or something to that affect.

In finding poly, Lobster has said many times that he feels more connected to the acceptance and open honesty that comes with the life then he ever did with the religion he was raised in. It provides for a much better environment. Ever glimmer of understanding and acceptance that he has, is followed by his mother's voice and a guilt trip that lends itself right into feelings of insecurity.

I don't think that I'm being entirely clear on things but I'm at a loss as to how to better explain myself. I don't want to change him, rather allow him to find a way to allow the option of there being something not socially accepted by the church.
 
In finding poly, Lobster has said many times that he feels more connected to the acceptance and open honesty that comes with the life then he ever did with the religion he was raised in. It provides for a much better environment.
I'm not surprised at all. I wish I had something useful to offer here...my head is spinning from a headline item I just read. I've never been a religious person, or raised in that kind of environment...and as I got older I became very appreciative for it. I saw so many friends stuck in the kind of environments that you describe Lobster being in...forced into some box of behavior, or worse for me was the box of opinion...what was ok to think, and what wasn't.
I'll tell the full story sometime maybe, but suffice to say that as someone who cherished being able to think for myself, and make my on decisions about things, the prospect of being forced into any little box of thought or behavior by an old book, dogma, guilt, or any of the above was pretty much a personal form of hell.

Regardless of how much church groups seemed to preach universal acceptance and love for your fellow man and such, my experience was that the practice was always different than the message. People are people, and church groups no different than any other mob...just with baked goods. Fit in and have some pie, or get out and have some heathen donuts from Timmy's on your way to hell.

Fortunately for me, I like Timmy's donuts...and I don't care about social acceptance from groups like that. It serves no purpose for me, satisfies no need or desire, and I can get my own baking from people I like and do get along with, and who accept me on my terms just as I accept them on theirs.

I make a distinction between religion, and the Church. One is a belief system, and the other if a group of people spouting dogma. I have little trouble with religion. It's the organization, the groups of people, the mobs that leave me shaking my head. And I have zero hesitation in telling them to go pound sand whenever they want to stick their fingers in my pie.... figuratively speaking.

I don't know if that will be a palatable option for Lobster, but it is an option. It's possible to take the good from a religion, and keep it in one's life...and live in a moral fashion. It may not be socially acceptable to the church...but the church is just people, as fallible and selfish as the rest of us. Social needs can be found elsewhere...breaking with the church is certainly not unheard of, and sometimes part of growing up is also breaking with our parents way of living. It doesn't sound like his parents will make that part easy...and that's a decision only he can make.

Hmm, other thoughts coming to mind too, but I've rambled enough. May come back to this later.
 
I make a distinction between religion, and the Church. One is a belief system, and the other if a group of people spouting dogma. I have little trouble with religion. It's the organization, the groups of people, the mobs that leave me shaking my head.

This!!!

I gained a LOT of insight when I started to question everything I was brought up to believe. There was a point, where I was actively looking for reasons to abandon my faith completely. It was through that search, that I was able to differentiate between what I truly believed my faith was about vs what was just organizational dogma.

When I find myself being judgemental, I am now able to stop and evaluate where it's comming from. Am I reacting because of years of indoctrination or because there is something truly wrong (they are hurting others, etc). Where I struggle the most now is with my anger toward those (mostly family members), who spout judgements and justify it with religous BS. I have become the irritating person who questions their rants with "Why?".
 
With that said, he spent years researching, looking for his own little "loophole" to get out. In times of stress, given a chance he will return to the church for comfort.
I work with an "agnostic" Catholic. Basically, he likes the culture, but doesn't accept all the dogma. He told me about growing up in Catholic school.

One day, the nuns are teaching him about divorce. They said that the church doesn't recognize it. So "remarrying" was really adultery since they did not recognize the original divorce. If the person died, they would go to hell because they could not ask for forgiveness for a continuous sin. So if the person wanted to avoid hell, they could not remarry.

My friend asked the nun a question: "Can't the man kill his ex-wife and ask for forgiveness for that?" The nun realized that it would work according to the theology she had just taught. But she didn't want to promote murder as a way to get around the divorce issue. She was kind of stuck.

Soon after that, I heard that Israel sells all of its bread to this Egyptian man to "hold on" to for a day or two because they are not suppose to have the bread over some holiday. After the day or two, the man sells it back (with a little money for his profit).

I then heard about some Jews who are suppose to do no work on Saturday. They can not even push the button on an elevator. So they may live in apartments where the elevator continuously goes up and down while stopping on every floor so no one has to push a button.

All of that just made me wonder about all the loopholes people find in trying to thwart what they think is God's will. They are silly when looked at from the outside of the religion and they make God out to be some petty deity who blindly makes up nonsensical rules.

If his family chooses to blame someone I would rather it be me as they can't get in my head the way they do his.
I dated an ex-Mormon. Her ex-husband was still Mormon and he was very lax about it. Then he realized he was falling way behind with child support. So he refound his Mormon beliefs and tried to get my girlfriend's children taken away because she was now an atheist. I quickly learned that other Mormons will lie to help save children from being raised by Mormons.

In finding poly, Lobster has said many times that he feels more connected to the acceptance and open honesty that comes with the life then he ever did with the religion he was raised in. It provides for a much better environment. Ever glimmer of understanding and acceptance that he has, is followed by his mother's voice and a guilt trip that lends itself right into feelings of insecurity.
I feel that polyamory is rooted in honesty. It is about being honest with your feelings, desires and who you are. I see most religions are about conformity and hiding desires (there are some good counterexamples to this though).

I don't think that I'm being entirely clear on things but I'm at a loss as to how to better explain myself. I don't want to change him, rather allow him to find a way to allow the option of there being something not socially accepted by the church.
You may want him to give ExMormon.org a try. I have talked to some ex-Mormons who said that that website really helped them out a lot.
 
Honestly religion is not something that Lobster and I discuss. It is something that interests him greatly (as does politics) while I am the deer in the head lights.

I'll mention Unitarian Universalism again. Christians, agnostics, atheists, Pagans, and more sit next together and discuss religious ethics, social justice concerns, religious language, etc. It's a church where Lobster can find people who can talk with him about the religious issues that he struggles with. It might well be a church that will help you be able to talk religion with him...and this might be important to him.

UUs for Polyamory Awareness has spent the last ten years raising awareness about polyamory in UUism to blaze a trail for families like yours. It should be possible to find a UU minister with whom you can talk openly about your situation and find the religious support that Lobster needs.

Jasmine
 
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