Sometimes I want to kick my own sheltered arse

Trimbat

New member
Hi, everyone. I've avoided fora like this for far too long now, I think, and I'll appreciate any help/advice that ya'll can give me -- hopefully it's not too late.

Short story: I had abusive early experiences (including Catholicism, joke-only-half-intended) and have always been really sheltered & reserved about sex -- but also always hated that part of myself, always wanted there to be more eventually. I married a boy with a loooong history, lots of partners and experimentation, who, while he knew that I was thirsty to explore more, really just wanted to settle down himself.

Fast forward five years. Our marriage is AWESOME; we're family; we've raised a kid together and want desperately to grow old together. But seven years of stability gave me the guts to finally confront my persistent anxieties about sex, and once I did, I realized that holy cow am I poly and have always wanted to be poly and was just too scared to death to do anything about it.

This realization came in the form of a friend I made -- I always have several male friends whom I'm usually at least a little attracted to -- who was open with me about wanting to have sex, in a trusted-friends-with-benefits sense (this is what you call a secondary, yes? Though I gather that secondaries can be varying degrees of serious, and this one would have been someone I cared for and had fun with for however long it lasted; no expectation of a longer relationship). I've never cheated on anyone in my life, so I discussed it with my husband, who gave me permission to try it (and maybe I shouldn't have taken his permission, since if I hadn't been so eager I'd have seen how tough it was for him to give it). I tried it, I loved it, and I want to do it again, both with the current guy (who I've told for the time being that we have to just be platonic, and he's great with that, but I know he'd also be great with more sex if I were to offer) and eventually with others (though not a million others; I have to know and like people to want to sleep with them, and I don't think I could manage more than one "secondary" at a time just in sheer effort required).

But my husband HATED the experience of me doing it--he said it made him certain I was going to leave him, no matter how many times I said I wasn't-- and then when he went to try it himself, he had the common experience of not being able to find anyone, and anyway he doesn't really *want* anyone else, and has a hard time not taking it personally that I do. (IT'S NOT; can I say that here? I can't explain in ten words or less why I feel like I need other sex partners now and again, but it ISN'T because my husband is inadequate! I LOVE him and our sex life is AWESOME and yes, if I have to give up all other relationships to stay with him I will...but given my history and whatnot, he knows as well as I do that if I do that as a sacrifice, I will resent it and it could ruin us eventually, and we're quite desperate to avoid that.)

So I find myself in the position of having to (or how it feels, desperately needing to in order to save our relationship) figure out with him what our middle ground is, and how we can both get what we need. We've talked about "rules" and things but so far we can't reach an agreement that doesn't feel stifling to me or terrifying to him. We're still going strong with trying, which I take as a really good sign. But holy stars and garters, would I be thrilled with any advice that anyone had, or further reading for us (we've done some, but nothing's really been useful so far). We do know the basics -- we've talked about swinging and whatnot before, and we may yet try that, but it doesn't address the issue of my wanting secondary/ies and not being able to make/help him feel secure and wanted in the face of that. I also have to fight really hard not to feel like I'm just too broken to "do" marriage, and that makes me want to give up one way or the other (either give up on being married, or give up on being any kind of poly...which, considering my state of mind and personal growth, I'm really worried will lead to cheating and ruin my marriage anyway).

One sub-question for anybody who's brave enough to swing at it: How bad is "lying by agreement"? My husband finds hearing or knowing anything about my, um, activities really horribly uncomfortable -- even that I'm *thinking* about it bothers him. He brought up the possibility of us setting ground-rules up front, but then agreeing that I would lie to him about what I was doing "in realtime" so he wouldn't have to think about it. I don't like how that feels but I would do it for him if it was actually helpful. Is it, or is the need for any kind of lying a bad, bad sign?

Thanks ya'll,
TB
 
I see the problem your marriage is/was AWESOME but you feel the need to have other intimate relationships and those are not so awesome in thought or reality for hubby.

Perhaps join a poly group and help him find someone?

If he needs you to lie...sounds bad but what would be the problem. ...he asked for that.

Are you ready for the possible negative way he sees and act or react to you?
 
Welcome to the forum, and I really like your title for the thread ! :D


Short story: I had abusive early experiences (including Catholicism, joke-only-half-intended)

Yep, they are into abuse big time - they want to control and ruin our sex lives, and they are into genital mutilation. I would suggest you dont go near them again !



always wanted there to be more eventuallt holy cow am I poly and have always wanted to be poly and was just too scared to death to do anything about it.

I'm reading "Sex at Dawn", (recommended reading, by the way), its about how much evidence there is, showing that our ancestors were promiscusous, its in our dna! (now we can overcome things in our dna, of course, but why suppress an activity thats healthy, and fun?)

I've never cheated on anyone in my life, so I discussed it with my husband, who gave me permission to try it

Well done to you, for not cheating, and for speaking about it. Its the lying and getting caught that causes the damage in relationships, NOT from having sex with someone other than your spouse. ...and VERY well done to your husband. I think he may need a lot of time to process this now, and overcome his fear/s.



But my husband HATED the experience of me doing it--he said it made him certain I was going to leave him, no matter how many times I said I wasn't--
:( :( :(

(IT'S NOT; can I say that here? I can't explain in ten words or less why I feel like I need other sex partners now and again, but it ISN'T because my husband is inadequate! I LOVE him and our sex life is AWESOME and yes, if I have to give up all other relationships to stay with him I will...but given my history and whatnot, he knows as well as I do that if I do that as a sacrifice, I will resent it and it could ruin us eventually, and we're quite desperate to avoid that.)

"Like"

But holy stars and garters, would I be thrilled with any advice that anyone had, or further reading for us (we've done some, but nothing's really been useful so far).

Did you check out "Ethical Slut" ?


One sub-question for anybody who's brave enough to swing at it: How bad is "lying by agreement"? My husband finds hearing or knowing anything about my, um, activities really horribly uncomfortable -- even that I'm *thinking* about it bothers him. He brought up the possibility of us setting ground-rules up front, but then agreeing that I would lie to him about what I was doing "in realtime" so he wouldn't have to think about it. I don't like how that feels but I would do it for him if it was actually helpful. Is it, or is the need for any kind of lying a bad, bad sign?

Called "dont ask, dont tell" policy, search for it here, or even just DADT. If your prospective partner/s are told you have this policy, they might still think you are cheating on your husband. But maybe it can work in your case.
 
Hi there and welcome.

In reading your post, it seems you are focused on sex, or having multiple sexual partners. I am not seeing anything about relationships and emotional involvement, which is really what poly is all about (although there is room for casual sexual liaisons, too, but polyamory is more than that). So, maybe swinging or being open is actually what you want. Or slowing down the sex part and nurturing relationships, if that's preferable. Do you know what you want?

You also seem really attached to the term "secondary" (and also, therefore, "primary"). Is there a reason you wish to have a hierachy?

I am just asking these questions for you to get clear about what you're looking for, so we can help.

As far as a DADT policy, there are a few threads here you might find illuminating:
To Share or Not to Share?
Don't ask, Don't tell policies
Communication on date nights?

Just a start. Do a search and I'm sure you'll find more.
 
Thank you very much so far, everyone! Some really good points there, and good-looking reading recommendations that I'll definitely check out.

I don't know how I missed that "DADT" is actually (from skimming, it seems) pretty common...will definitely read more.

The Most Pertinent Question Award goes to "Do you know what you want?" ... umm, I'd say yes, but obviously this whole situation would have been avoided if I'd known what I wanted before I signed up for a lifelong relationship. All people change of course, and in my case the changes are new and very big and predicated upon having not known (or avoided looking at) some important self-data to begin with, so I guess the safest answer is "hell no I don't know what I want", other than that I know I want my husband to be with me through figuring it out. Obviously it's not JUST about sex (is anything?), but I would guess it's pretty normal for that to be the sticking point, especially with married couples.

Thanks again!
TB
 
on Secondaries

Oh, I forgot I did want to address nycindie's comment about heirarchies: YES there is a reason I want to have that. I have a life-partner already -- someone whom I want to be my closest confidant, my living companion, and my strongest supporter/responsibility (meaning he will go to the absolute wall for me, and I for him) until death do us part, for really. A lot of this recently is about me realizing and clarifying that some of my "boy friends" are really "boyfriends", and now that PTSD doesn't keep me from treating them as such, I'd like to at least to some degree. But my husband and I are very clear that no matter what other relationships either of us have, we want to stay the primary partner for each other. That's something we worked really, really hard to build.

Please do correct me if this means that I'm using "secondary" incorrectly -- my understanding of it is that it means you have a relationship (the ones I'm thinking of are very caring, trusting friendships, usually based on shared hobbies, with some degree of physicality involved), but you state up front to everyone involved that that relationship is not as important to you at the end of the day as your primary one, and that if it comes down to one or the other, you'll sacrifice the secondary relationship. If that's true, then as I've said, I already pretty much have them, only my husband has been relying (more than either of us knew until recently) on those relationships being purely non-physical, and I'd like to change that insofar as we can both be comfortable with it.

Thanks again!
TB
 
Please do correct me if this means that I'm using "secondary" incorrectly -- my understanding of it is that it means you have a relationship (the ones I'm thinking of are very caring, trusting friendships, usually based on shared hobbies, with some degree of physicality involved), but you state up front to everyone involved that that relationship is not as important to you at the end of the day as your primary one, and that if it comes down to one or the other, you'll sacrifice the secondary relationship.

That could be a couple's understanding... but no, I don't think it's common. Secondaries can be just as important as primaries. They are people too! And it's possible to fall as deeply in love with a secondary as with your primary.

Letting them know you'll just dump them when push comes to shove is rather disrespectful, imo.

Usually people are secondary not in LOVE, but in living arrangements, financial arrangements, childcare.

It can take a while, months to years, for a formerly mono person to accept how multiple love relationships can add to the primary one, and not threaten it. How each lover brings something unique and good to the polyamorous person, and there is no need to choose or limit loving anyone, except for time and energy constraints.
 
Oh, it sounds like you just want "play partners" without emotional involvement. That's not exactly a secondary. There is a website with a very popular page called a Secondary's Bill of Rights" here, if you want to read about a Secondary's point of view: http://www.xeromag.com/fvsecondary.html

I don't think anyone would really want to enter into any meaningful relationship being told they are not as important as someone else, even if it is a spouse -- unless it's just primarily a sexual relationship where no emotions are involved and the secondary is okay with that. As Mags said, usually having a primary and secondary in polyamory means there is love and emotional investment, but that the primary is the one who shares more of the heavy-duty responsibilities like finances, real estate, parenting, etc., and a secondary may often be secondary simply because of scheduling/availability, ie., not being able to spend as much time together. But secondaries are loved and respected and shouldn't be considered expendable. It isn't cool to unceremoniously dump a secondary.

I really think that you are looking more for recreational, casual sex partners rather than polyamorous [love] relationships.
 
Oo, fascinating article; thank you for that! Having read it, I think I can defend myself a bit here from accusations (and the judgment may be subconscious, but I'm definitely sensing it) that my desire is to use people or treat them badly, or that the fact that I want to explicitly identify my husband as my primary means that I'm somehow screwing (metaphorically) my secondary/ies or that my relationships with them wouldn't "count" as poly (though if that last one is true, I guess I don't care).

Nothing I'm looking to do violates any of the "Secondary's Bill of Rights", or the principles laid out in the preamble of it. I'm not being dishonest in any way, and the relationship I have is quite in line with what my secondary partner wants -- he's a young unattached man and not looking for a relationship in the progress-towards-cohabitation-etc. sense; he just wants a trusted sexual friend, like I do. He's aware that I'm married and that my sexual activity involves the veto power of my husband, and that for that or various other reasons, our sexual relationship if not our friendship may be short.

The only thing that article and I "disagree" (and mildly) about is whether it's super important for the primary partner to "want" the secondary partner. I say "mildly" because I think it comes down to definitions of want...my husband wants me to have people to date and be to some degree sexual with because it makes me happy, and we want each other to be happy. (Therefore also, I want my other relationships to happen inside the context of what my husband is comfortable with, for the same reasons.) There's no hatred between him and anybody I might date. But it is difficult for him sometimes, and it's easier for him if he doesn't have to interact with them regularly -- and I don't see why that shouldn't be something I'm willing to do, and my secondaries are/will know about and be fine with. (Wow, sorry for the grammar on that last sentence! Yikes.)

As an update, further conversations and stuff are going really well -- and thank you to everyone who mentioned sex in the "is this really what's important?" sense -- it turns out that while that's our sticking point right now, it isn't in fact the heart of the matter, and dealing with it that way has made things much easier for us. We've decided to abstain from outside-the-marriage penetrative sex for a while (as that's what really bothered my husband, it turns out; other sexual contact is fine with him) and let the now-conscious reality of my polyamory (or whatever you want to call it) settle. I'll keep seeing the people I'm seeing, most of whom are platonic anyway, and we'll keep working on the details of how to make it so that both of us can be comfortable and happy. I'll talk to my one recently-not-platonic secondary (who, by the way, is also a secondary in the sense that other obligations don't allow us to spend much time together -- we share some hobbies and see each other weekly or so, but neither of us has time for more than that) and see where he wants our relationship to fall on the spectrum of sexual contact; and if he doesn't want any, that's fine; I'll keep my eyes out for someone who does, and take it at a speed that my marriage can be comfortable with.

In short, I feel much better, and I definitely owe some of that to you, so thank you! I'll continue reading and talking and if I learn anything momentous, I'll be sure to share it.

Thanks!
TB
 
Have you read the thread by anotherconfused because the parallels are amazing .....are heavily involved in dancing?:). If haven't you need to check it out.
 
I will definitely check that out, DH, thanks! (I like martial arts; is that close enough to dancing? ;)

I wanted to hop back in, as sort of a closer to this thread maybe, and say thank you one more time to everyone for the (in retrospect very gentle and thoughtful) prodding on what I didn't realize then, but do realize now, are several key issues for me.

One is sex, i.e. being hung up on sex, which I guess happens to a lot of formerly-abused people who wind up hiding from their own genitalia for years. ;) You're absolutely right that there's a lot more to this than that, and when I started looking at it that way, a lot got clearer.

Another is polyamory itself, which I think I've been trying to avoid copping to, probably because I've known several people who used the term as a cover for being dishonest and irresponsible. I'm sure this community gets a lot of that, and I'm sorry, for what it's worth, that I was doing it too, albeit mostly subconsciously. Polyamory is nothing more (or less) than loving multiple people, and no matter what I've thought about it or called it, I've been wired to do that for as long as I can remember. I will work to be more appreciative of the groundwork so many other people have done in defining and understanding this mode of emotional expression.

And the final one is secondaries, which, yup, more reading and talking has made me realize I was definitely misunderstanding. Here's why I think I was doing that:

  • My CatholicBrain(tm) is more comfortable with the thought that any relationship outside the Sanctioned One(tm) must be a dirty animalistic rutting-thing focused on only sex
  • In my mind, "just sex" should be less threatening for my husband than an actual secondary relationship. However, my mind is wrong about this, it turns out. Neither is easy to talk about, but welcome to the Real World haha.
  • I'm afraid of hurting my secondary. Being the older, married one of us, I feel the pressure of keeping all my drama off his shoulders (which I do), and I worry about "leading him on" if I talk about relationships. Plus I'm subconsciously steeling myself for when he finds a primary of his own or otherwise gets "through with me" -- an insecure and not-useful way to think, even if it is likely to happen eventually. But none of these things are helped by hiding the fact that I care deeply for and about him, no matter how much easier it seems to just bluster and act cold and "sure it's just friends with benefits" about it. (Also, to be fair, he acted very much like that with me at first, and it took me a while to see it for what it was: a young person trying to shield himself from scary things. I've been there, and been the blustery "hmph I know what I'm doing and this isn't a relationship at all haha" one, and I can be more sympathetic of that and helpful than I have been. Honesty, for one thing, means not just letting him know that he's not in line to ever be a primary, but *also* letting him know that as a secondary, he's precious to me and will be treated well. I am sorry for being an idiot about that at first, but it didn't really hit me until yesterday, when my secondary said something that made me realize that for all the bluster, he really is just a young guy head over heels for a hot older woman...and it's very much on me to not be a jerk about that. And I certainly don't want to be a jerk or a bad experience, because whether I like to face it or not (see the next point), I *do* love him.)
  • The real definition of secondaries is SUCH a slap in the face to the status quo, it's actually intimidating -- and I say "actually" because I'm normally the sort of person to just punch the status quo in the trachea and keep walking. The status quo has room for "needing a little on the side", and will even forgive that if you promise that that's all it was, but society balks hard at "needing or wanting more than one *love relationship*". I didn't realize how uncomfortable taking that step, even mentally, was for me. Thank you again to the forum (both this thread and the rest I've read) for helping me see that the reality of multiple loves really is both true and OK.

Having just started to get all of this in order in my head after 7 years with my husband is certainly a tough hand to be dealt, but sticking with honesty and love as principles is fantastic advice and so far seems to be working great. Thank you again, Forum Folk!

-TB
 
I'm normally the sort of person to just punch the status quo in the trachea and keep walking.

It's sounds like you've got a much better place to start from and I wish you luck. I don't really have anything else to contribute, but I just had to tell you how much I <3 this! :D
 
Yes it is. Bad news is that relationship just took a bad turn.:(

So you're Hot ...and you like to spar. Where exactly did you say you were? ;)

All kidding aside good luck to you all.
 
OK...I'm about to spout an extremely unpopular opinion so I want to make it clear that this is not a piece of advice or even a reccommended way of doing things, simply my experience...

In the very very beginning of my poly journey, my husband was just fine with me having a sexual relationship with a woman, but no romance and no kind of "sexy" relationship with a man even if no sex was involoved. I treasure my husband and know that my relationship with him is what I consider my "foundational relationship' (notice that I neatly avoid heirarchical terms). That relationship is the one that gives me a safe foundation to move out from as well as a safe place to return to. Your mention of PTSD is what compels me to post this because I truly believe that those of us with traumatic histories have to deal with all of our relationships, including poly ones, in a unique way. Anyway...

I developed a very intense love for another woman and my husband was terribly afraid that I was going to leave him for her. At the same time, she had a sttrong hatred for the word "secondary" and needed to know that she was as valuable to me as my husband is. That was all four years ago. We all agreed in the beginning not to use terms like "primary" and "secondary" because they seemed to undermine the importance of the relationships. However...

My relationship with my husband is my foundational relationship. If that relationship is threatened, it feels as though my ery survival is threatened (trauma history rears its ugly head and I get a bit crazed). My husband responds in much the same way. That means that regardless of the terms that we use in our family, my relationship with my husband is the highest priority for me. Over the last four years, the woman that I fell so hard for has moved in with us and now we are all living in a new place that is ours. My wife has increased in importance to me as I believe always happens in long term relationships. She is certainly not secondary and she is becoming more and more a part of my foundation. On the other hand, I have a brandd new lover who is most certainly secondary. That works for all of us. My new lover has never NOT understood that I could and would meet his needs only AFTER the needs of the rest of my family have been met (I have three kids that I homeschool who require time, energy, and attention as well as the people that I am in romantic relationships with). Does that mean that I don't love him? Not at all. Does that mean that if he has a crisis come up I will make him wait for my attention? Nope. It does mean that if my relationship with him begins to weaken or undermine my foundational relationship(s), something will have to change. For now, it gives my new lover a sense of security in knowing that he is free to pursue his own growth and his own change without having to be very concerned about trying to meet my needs. And my husband has come to see that no other relationship will EVER be more important than the one I have with him. He has learned to trust that all of the yummy goodness that I get from my other relationships will splash onto him and benefit him and our relationship. He has heard me say more than once that I will end other relationships if that is what he needs from me. I had to get to a place where I genuinely meant that and knew that I could be more content to have just my husband than I could be if I had several other relationships but lost him. That gives both of us a sense of security that makes it much easier and much safer for me to explore other relationship potentials as they come. Again, I never forget that the other loves in my life are people with wants and needs and I work very hard to satisfy all of the people that I love and treasure. But there is also never a question about which relationship I am most devoted to. Because of that, all of my relationships are thriving.
 
My relationship with my husband is my foundational relationship.​

That's crazy well-put, and thank you for posting your story; I found it very helpful!

I've been doing a lot (lot lot) more reading on this, as well as reaching out to some friends both online and off who have more experience with polyamory than I do, and it's been an instructive few weeks to say the least.

If I can say that I've learned anything *definitely*, it's that it takes work and a fanatical devotion to honesty and clarity to make sure that each person's needs in a relationship are being met -- whether those needs are attention and a feeling of security, or space and a feeling of freedom -- and the only proper way to go about it is to recognize and treat everyone involved as an individual, with feelings, agency, and the right to have a voice in things that affect them.

Thank you all again, very much. I'm definitely sticking around here to read, like, everything. ;)

-TB
 
OK...I'm about to spout an extremely unpopular opinion so I want to make it clear that this is not a piece of advice or even a reccommended way of doing things, simply my experience...

In the very very beginning of my poly journey, my husband was just fine with me having a sexual relationship with a woman, but no romance and no kind of "sexy" relationship with a man even if no sex was involoved. I treasure my husband and know that my relationship with him is what I consider my "foundational relationship' (notice that I neatly avoid heirarchical terms). That relationship is the one that gives me a safe foundation to move out from as well as a safe place to return to. Your mention of PTSD is what compels me to post this because I truly believe that those of us with traumatic histories have to deal with all of our relationships, including poly ones, in a unique way. Anyway...

I developed a very intense love for another woman and my husband was terribly afraid that I was going to leave him for her. At the same time, she had a sttrong hatred for the word "secondary" and needed to know that she was as valuable to me as my husband is. That was all four years ago. We all agreed in the beginning not to use terms like "primary" and "secondary" because they seemed to undermine the importance of the relationships. However...

My relationship with my husband is my foundational relationship. If that relationship is threatened, it feels as though my ery survival is threatened (trauma history rears its ugly head and I get a bit crazed). My husband responds in much the same way. That means that regardless of the terms that we use in our family, my relationship with my husband is the highest priority for me. Over the last four years, the woman that I fell so hard for has moved in with us and now we are all living in a new place that is ours. My wife has increased in importance to me as I believe always happens in long term relationships. She is certainly not secondary and she is becoming more and more a part of my foundation. On the other hand, I have a brandd new lover who is most certainly secondary. That works for all of us. My new lover has never NOT understood that I could and would meet his needs only AFTER the needs of the rest of my family have been met (I have three kids that I homeschool who require time, energy, and attention as well as the people that I am in romantic relationships with). Does that mean that I don't love him? Not at all. Does that mean that if he has a crisis come up I will make him wait for my attention? Nope. It does mean that if my relationship with him begins to weaken or undermine my foundational relationship(s), something will have to change. For now, it gives my new lover a sense of security in knowing that he is free to pursue his own growth and his own change without having to be very concerned about trying to meet my needs. And my husband has come to see that no other relationship will EVER be more important than the one I have with him. He has learned to trust that all of the yummy goodness that I get from my other relationships will splash onto him and benefit him and our relationship. He has heard me say more than once that I will end other relationships if that is what he needs from me. I had to get to a place where I genuinely meant that and knew that I could be more content to have just my husband than I could be if I had several other relationships but lost him. That gives both of us a sense of security that makes it much easier and much safer for me to explore other relationship potentials as they come. Again, I never forget that the other loves in my life are people with wants and needs and I work very hard to satisfy all of the people that I love and treasure. But there is also never a question about which relationship I am most devoted to. Because of that, all of my relationships are thriving.

This is a great bit, and I love your terminology. My only problem with what you have said is the bit about ending any relationship that your husband felt threatened by. I can't make that promise to my wife, personally. My girlfriends are very special people, and to me, it would be like trying to choose which of my children I love best (or least and able to severe ties with).
If one of my relationships causes fears and jealousy in another, then we need to address that feeling and its causes, but putting the others on the chopping block is not negotiable, IMO.

As far as to the OP: the only thing I haven't seen addressed is that her marriage, despite her husband's wild past, is really a Poly - Mono one, and he is the mono struggling with that concept. There are several great resources online you can look for on addressing this issue.
 
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