New to the forum and appreciative of this resource. Been reading for a month or so and just joined thinking I would solicit advice on my situation.
I am 45+ yr old male in a 15 year marriage. My wife and I have a good marriage but have had some struggles along the way. We have a tween daughter. We have been in couples therapy for a couple of years and it seems to be helping. We have had out of state friends who are or have been poly and more adventurous then ourselves. We have not had any infidelities or any outside experiences, apart or together.
A couple of months ago, my wife (Cassy) was hanging out with our closest friends/couple (Jane & Bill). The three were having a good time and talking about some sexual stuff. There were intoxicants but no one was drunk. I arrived later and could tell there was a bit of a charged atmosphere. Bill showed me pictures of both Cassy and Jane on his phone where they had lifted their shirts exposing their breasts. Everyone was having fun, but nothing like this had happened before. When we got home, Cassy and I had really charged sex and it was great.
The next afternoon, the wife and I were out for a walk and part way through she said she had something to tell me, "I kissed Bill last night". Then she expressed that she loved me and wanted to be with me but that it had felt good to feel desired and the experience was very positive. She then referred to a very historic conversation we had had many years prior about it being ok to have this type of experience as long as everything was "above the belt". That had been our understanding and agreement. Fun is fun, right?
Shortly after this night, she shared an article about open relationships and wanted to start talking about that. She had just finished reading "Mating In Captivity" by Esther Perl. She had been reading other things and listening to podcasts about open relationships and had shared one or two things with me a few years back. Now we were talking about these concepts much more personally. I have been doing my part to catch up on this information and process along the way.
My reaction to this "kiss" and the subsequent conversation about "opening" has been very challenging. I'm not a jealous person (at least that was what I thought) but I was surprised at how emotionally vulnerable, raw and conflicted the experience has been. First things first, I asked about the kiss and it was a full-on, multi minute make-out with groping. It bothered me that it was described as a "kiss" which I felt down-played the sensual/sexual aspect of it. But I felt I could get past it and we could begin this new conversation about what "opening" could mean for us. I'll list how this has broken down for me:
The Good:
Our sex life has been seriously rekindled. We are making love and fucking and everything in-between.
Our communication has improved quite a bit.
My ability to be in touch and be able to articulate my emotional experience is vastly improved. I used the term "woke". In many ways I feel that we have a before marriage and now an after marriage.
I feel far more sensual and excited sexually. I think we did not prioritize this and that has not been the case since the "kiss". We both experienced a jolt but I think that I was far more affected as it relates to our relationship.
Discussions of new things, trying new things has brought us closer.
The Bad:
As far as our vastly improved sex life goes, I have almost exclusively been the initiator.
Some communication has been very difficult and I have felt there has been less openness and some withholding of information that I would want.
We are stubbornly stuck on the issue of Bill and how he factors into discussions of openness. (More on this below)
Rollercoaster emotional experience for me.
Awkwardness for me trying to imagine really engaging another person.
I feel uncomfortable with this crossing into our existing friend-group. Like I am not being a faithful friend if I am scoping and assessing his wife. Years of monogamy put up filters (too many filters, to be honest) but it feels wrong to ascribe sexuality to my married friends.
So here is where we are now. Bill and Jane are very close to us and the only friends we talk to about these things. Cassy points to Jane as her go-to person. Jane claims to not be jealous and prefers to think of these things (the kiss) as “events”. Bill would be my go-to but I am struggling with my wife’s true attraction and affection towards him. It feels to me that he is like a brother. It has caused me discomfort and some pain (jealousy?). I am very concerned about what further physicality between them will do to my emotional state and my important relationship with Bill.
Many weeks after the “kiss” we hung out together as couples. At one point Cassy brought up the idea of opening our marriage in a way that I thought was very leading and confusing. Afterwards, Cassy and I discussed and I told her that she had been unclear. Days after that I asked if she had heard from them and she said that she had heard from Bill. I felt like I had to pull every detail out of her, but she ultimately shared that Bill asked if she was asking them for a three-way. This did not seem terribly far-fetched to me, as Cassy’s conversational roll-out was not refined. Cassy said she responded that she was “not ruling anything out”. This was after me sharing my extreme discomfort with the two of them becoming more physically and emotionally involved. I was very hurt that I felt that I had to pull this information out of her.
That evening I sent an email to all three of them sharing my feelings about what happened and that I was struggling with anything further happening between Cassy and Bill. Cassy was very upset and felt that I spoke out of place for her because I shared my interpretation of her feelings towards Bill. Ultimately I felt that things were more transparent between us all and Cassy and I agreed to a moratorium on contact outside our marriage while we work this out.
Things are currently at an impasse. I do not want to jeopardize my close friendship with Bill by empowering Cassy to see where this goes. My belief is that she would like to have an approved affair with Bill. She seems to like the idea of having another physical and emotional relationship. She does not want to feel controlled by me and wants to be free to experience more similar “kissing” and have the open possibility for more.
I have tried to steer things towards the portion of the spectrum where our comforts overlap. We have considered attending an open-type meet up or swinger-type group in a nearby city. My primary hang-up is that this all feels tailor-made to fit her desire towards our very good friend. I am trying to move on a path where we experience this opening on a neutral playing field. I do not like the idea of this being centered around Bill. I shared that to get past this and move forward I really need to hear her say that she will keep it above the belt and never go further with Bill. She will not agree, feeling that she should not have to be controlled by me. I am left feeling like I want to move forward together and thinking she wants to go on a solo journey. Stuck in “open” purgatory.
Believe it or not, I actually left out some detail! Good on you if you have been patient enough to get through this whole thing. I thought it would be most helpful to paint a complete picture. Appreciation for any thoughts.
I am 45+ yr old male in a 15 year marriage. My wife and I have a good marriage but have had some struggles along the way. We have a tween daughter. We have been in couples therapy for a couple of years and it seems to be helping. We have had out of state friends who are or have been poly and more adventurous then ourselves. We have not had any infidelities or any outside experiences, apart or together.
A couple of months ago, my wife (Cassy) was hanging out with our closest friends/couple (Jane & Bill). The three were having a good time and talking about some sexual stuff. There were intoxicants but no one was drunk. I arrived later and could tell there was a bit of a charged atmosphere. Bill showed me pictures of both Cassy and Jane on his phone where they had lifted their shirts exposing their breasts. Everyone was having fun, but nothing like this had happened before. When we got home, Cassy and I had really charged sex and it was great.
The next afternoon, the wife and I were out for a walk and part way through she said she had something to tell me, "I kissed Bill last night". Then she expressed that she loved me and wanted to be with me but that it had felt good to feel desired and the experience was very positive. She then referred to a very historic conversation we had had many years prior about it being ok to have this type of experience as long as everything was "above the belt". That had been our understanding and agreement. Fun is fun, right?
Shortly after this night, she shared an article about open relationships and wanted to start talking about that. She had just finished reading "Mating In Captivity" by Esther Perl. She had been reading other things and listening to podcasts about open relationships and had shared one or two things with me a few years back. Now we were talking about these concepts much more personally. I have been doing my part to catch up on this information and process along the way.
My reaction to this "kiss" and the subsequent conversation about "opening" has been very challenging. I'm not a jealous person (at least that was what I thought) but I was surprised at how emotionally vulnerable, raw and conflicted the experience has been. First things first, I asked about the kiss and it was a full-on, multi minute make-out with groping. It bothered me that it was described as a "kiss" which I felt down-played the sensual/sexual aspect of it. But I felt I could get past it and we could begin this new conversation about what "opening" could mean for us. I'll list how this has broken down for me:
The Good:
Our sex life has been seriously rekindled. We are making love and fucking and everything in-between.
Our communication has improved quite a bit.
My ability to be in touch and be able to articulate my emotional experience is vastly improved. I used the term "woke". In many ways I feel that we have a before marriage and now an after marriage.
I feel far more sensual and excited sexually. I think we did not prioritize this and that has not been the case since the "kiss". We both experienced a jolt but I think that I was far more affected as it relates to our relationship.
Discussions of new things, trying new things has brought us closer.
The Bad:
As far as our vastly improved sex life goes, I have almost exclusively been the initiator.
Some communication has been very difficult and I have felt there has been less openness and some withholding of information that I would want.
We are stubbornly stuck on the issue of Bill and how he factors into discussions of openness. (More on this below)
Rollercoaster emotional experience for me.
Awkwardness for me trying to imagine really engaging another person.
I feel uncomfortable with this crossing into our existing friend-group. Like I am not being a faithful friend if I am scoping and assessing his wife. Years of monogamy put up filters (too many filters, to be honest) but it feels wrong to ascribe sexuality to my married friends.
So here is where we are now. Bill and Jane are very close to us and the only friends we talk to about these things. Cassy points to Jane as her go-to person. Jane claims to not be jealous and prefers to think of these things (the kiss) as “events”. Bill would be my go-to but I am struggling with my wife’s true attraction and affection towards him. It feels to me that he is like a brother. It has caused me discomfort and some pain (jealousy?). I am very concerned about what further physicality between them will do to my emotional state and my important relationship with Bill.
Many weeks after the “kiss” we hung out together as couples. At one point Cassy brought up the idea of opening our marriage in a way that I thought was very leading and confusing. Afterwards, Cassy and I discussed and I told her that she had been unclear. Days after that I asked if she had heard from them and she said that she had heard from Bill. I felt like I had to pull every detail out of her, but she ultimately shared that Bill asked if she was asking them for a three-way. This did not seem terribly far-fetched to me, as Cassy’s conversational roll-out was not refined. Cassy said she responded that she was “not ruling anything out”. This was after me sharing my extreme discomfort with the two of them becoming more physically and emotionally involved. I was very hurt that I felt that I had to pull this information out of her.
That evening I sent an email to all three of them sharing my feelings about what happened and that I was struggling with anything further happening between Cassy and Bill. Cassy was very upset and felt that I spoke out of place for her because I shared my interpretation of her feelings towards Bill. Ultimately I felt that things were more transparent between us all and Cassy and I agreed to a moratorium on contact outside our marriage while we work this out.
Things are currently at an impasse. I do not want to jeopardize my close friendship with Bill by empowering Cassy to see where this goes. My belief is that she would like to have an approved affair with Bill. She seems to like the idea of having another physical and emotional relationship. She does not want to feel controlled by me and wants to be free to experience more similar “kissing” and have the open possibility for more.
I have tried to steer things towards the portion of the spectrum where our comforts overlap. We have considered attending an open-type meet up or swinger-type group in a nearby city. My primary hang-up is that this all feels tailor-made to fit her desire towards our very good friend. I am trying to move on a path where we experience this opening on a neutral playing field. I do not like the idea of this being centered around Bill. I shared that to get past this and move forward I really need to hear her say that she will keep it above the belt and never go further with Bill. She will not agree, feeling that she should not have to be controlled by me. I am left feeling like I want to move forward together and thinking she wants to go on a solo journey. Stuck in “open” purgatory.
Believe it or not, I actually left out some detail! Good on you if you have been patient enough to get through this whole thing. I thought it would be most helpful to paint a complete picture. Appreciation for any thoughts.