Stuck in "open" purgatory

caddyman

New member
New to the forum and appreciative of this resource. Been reading for a month or so and just joined thinking I would solicit advice on my situation.

I am 45+ yr old male in a 15 year marriage. My wife and I have a good marriage but have had some struggles along the way. We have a tween daughter. We have been in couples therapy for a couple of years and it seems to be helping. We have had out of state friends who are or have been poly and more adventurous then ourselves. We have not had any infidelities or any outside experiences, apart or together.

A couple of months ago, my wife (Cassy) was hanging out with our closest friends/couple (Jane & Bill). The three were having a good time and talking about some sexual stuff. There were intoxicants but no one was drunk. I arrived later and could tell there was a bit of a charged atmosphere. Bill showed me pictures of both Cassy and Jane on his phone where they had lifted their shirts exposing their breasts. Everyone was having fun, but nothing like this had happened before. When we got home, Cassy and I had really charged sex and it was great.

The next afternoon, the wife and I were out for a walk and part way through she said she had something to tell me, "I kissed Bill last night". Then she expressed that she loved me and wanted to be with me but that it had felt good to feel desired and the experience was very positive. She then referred to a very historic conversation we had had many years prior about it being ok to have this type of experience as long as everything was "above the belt". That had been our understanding and agreement. Fun is fun, right?

Shortly after this night, she shared an article about open relationships and wanted to start talking about that. She had just finished reading "Mating In Captivity" by Esther Perl. She had been reading other things and listening to podcasts about open relationships and had shared one or two things with me a few years back. Now we were talking about these concepts much more personally. I have been doing my part to catch up on this information and process along the way.

My reaction to this "kiss" and the subsequent conversation about "opening" has been very challenging. I'm not a jealous person (at least that was what I thought) but I was surprised at how emotionally vulnerable, raw and conflicted the experience has been. First things first, I asked about the kiss and it was a full-on, multi minute make-out with groping. It bothered me that it was described as a "kiss" which I felt down-played the sensual/sexual aspect of it. But I felt I could get past it and we could begin this new conversation about what "opening" could mean for us. I'll list how this has broken down for me:

The Good:
Our sex life has been seriously rekindled. We are making love and fucking and everything in-between.
Our communication has improved quite a bit.
My ability to be in touch and be able to articulate my emotional experience is vastly improved. I used the term "woke". In many ways I feel that we have a before marriage and now an after marriage.
I feel far more sensual and excited sexually. I think we did not prioritize this and that has not been the case since the "kiss". We both experienced a jolt but I think that I was far more affected as it relates to our relationship.
Discussions of new things, trying new things has brought us closer.

The Bad:
As far as our vastly improved sex life goes, I have almost exclusively been the initiator.
Some communication has been very difficult and I have felt there has been less openness and some withholding of information that I would want.
We are stubbornly stuck on the issue of Bill and how he factors into discussions of openness. (More on this below)
Rollercoaster emotional experience for me.
Awkwardness for me trying to imagine really engaging another person.
I feel uncomfortable with this crossing into our existing friend-group. Like I am not being a faithful friend if I am scoping and assessing his wife. Years of monogamy put up filters (too many filters, to be honest) but it feels wrong to ascribe sexuality to my married friends.

So here is where we are now. Bill and Jane are very close to us and the only friends we talk to about these things. Cassy points to Jane as her go-to person. Jane claims to not be jealous and prefers to think of these things (the kiss) as “events”. Bill would be my go-to but I am struggling with my wife’s true attraction and affection towards him. It feels to me that he is like a brother. It has caused me discomfort and some pain (jealousy?). I am very concerned about what further physicality between them will do to my emotional state and my important relationship with Bill.

Many weeks after the “kiss” we hung out together as couples. At one point Cassy brought up the idea of opening our marriage in a way that I thought was very leading and confusing. Afterwards, Cassy and I discussed and I told her that she had been unclear. Days after that I asked if she had heard from them and she said that she had heard from Bill. I felt like I had to pull every detail out of her, but she ultimately shared that Bill asked if she was asking them for a three-way. This did not seem terribly far-fetched to me, as Cassy’s conversational roll-out was not refined. Cassy said she responded that she was “not ruling anything out”. This was after me sharing my extreme discomfort with the two of them becoming more physically and emotionally involved. I was very hurt that I felt that I had to pull this information out of her.

That evening I sent an email to all three of them sharing my feelings about what happened and that I was struggling with anything further happening between Cassy and Bill. Cassy was very upset and felt that I spoke out of place for her because I shared my interpretation of her feelings towards Bill. Ultimately I felt that things were more transparent between us all and Cassy and I agreed to a moratorium on contact outside our marriage while we work this out.

Things are currently at an impasse. I do not want to jeopardize my close friendship with Bill by empowering Cassy to see where this goes. My belief is that she would like to have an approved affair with Bill. She seems to like the idea of having another physical and emotional relationship. She does not want to feel controlled by me and wants to be free to experience more similar “kissing” and have the open possibility for more.

I have tried to steer things towards the portion of the spectrum where our comforts overlap. We have considered attending an open-type meet up or swinger-type group in a nearby city. My primary hang-up is that this all feels tailor-made to fit her desire towards our very good friend. I am trying to move on a path where we experience this opening on a neutral playing field. I do not like the idea of this being centered around Bill. I shared that to get past this and move forward I really need to hear her say that she will keep it above the belt and never go further with Bill. She will not agree, feeling that she should not have to be controlled by me. I am left feeling like I want to move forward together and thinking she wants to go on a solo journey. Stuck in “open” purgatory.

Believe it or not, I actually left out some detail! Good on you if you have been patient enough to get through this whole thing. I thought it would be most helpful to paint a complete picture. Appreciation for any thoughts.
 
I'm sorry you struggle.

My primary hang-up is that this all feels tailor-made to fit her desire towards our very good friend. I am trying to move on a path where we experience this opening on a neutral playing field.

I am gonna guess. I might guess wrong. You wanted "neutral" Opening, and here's she's got someone "waiting in the wings." And all 3 of them are like "yay! let's go!" which might feel like you being ganged up on or like you are the hold up.

You also don't sound happy about wife downplaying "a kiss" when really it was "a make out session." Like maybe you are being railroaded into something you are not ready for or don't even know that you want, and don't even know you want it with THESE people.

Is any of that true?

So here is where we are now. Bill and Jane are very close to us and the only friends we talk to about these things.

I think that could change.

I don't think Bill should be your "go to person." He's got a vested interested in dating your wife. So he's not "neutral."

I think you and wife could return to couples therapy to help you to Open the Marriage if you actually want to do that. Then you each have support from people OUTSIDE the system.

And before you give your consent to practice Open Marriage? You could do some individual counseling to determine if you really even want to be doing that.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks GalaGirl.

I don't feel ganged up on and I do very much trust all of these people. I care for and love them. In a familial way. Jane is beautiful and awesome but I don't feel any attraction. Again, years of monogamy filters, maybe? Maybe also that I just have things categorized differently. They are like brother and sister to me.

I did want to take the stigma off the Bill thing. I have talked with Cassy and I believe there is a deep affection and genuine attraction there. It just makes me very uncomfortable. The dynamic is such that I feel like this is the one person that makes me squirm to have with my wife. She feels like my reaction is tailor-made to force her to reject the one person she feels most like she would want that something more with.

I was upset about the kiss description. To me, a kiss is a peck. I had to work to get the full description. The other factors here are that Cassy immediately told Jane what happened the night of- before I got there. I didn't get told until the next day. Finally, on this front- when we were hanging with them the night of the confusion about opening up, I could feel something between Cassy and Bill. Afterwards I told her that I felt that if I looked under the table, I would see her hand on his leg or visa versa. Not a huge deal but, Jeez- I'm sitting right there. Turns out no hand on leg/lap but Cassy was initiating footsie. Again, I am not hyper threatened by this, just that I could feel it was happening and thought it was really lame considering my very clearly articulated position that them being intimate makes me squirmy and somewhat angry.

We are seeing a therapist together and the same person sometimes alone. It has been a while for a variety of reasons. I don't know that I am interested in polyamory (no offense new friends!) but I am interested in engaging in some new and playful fun alongside my wife. I don't think I can handle her having a deep emotional and physical relationship with another person. I just don't see how I can abide that.

I'm worried that denying this arrangement will negatively affect my marriage. I'm worried that I'm not built to be in an open relationship. It's not what I signed up for many, many years ago. I'm worried that my wife wants what she wants, but if confronted with me engaging another person will feel differently. It feels that having this discussion successfully and ending up in a situation that everyone is comfortable with, is going to be extremely difficult.
 
Hello caddyman,

I think that the main sticking point here is Bill. You don't want Cassy to get involved with Bill, Cassy wants to get involved with Bill. It's not that you are opposed to open per se. Although a second possible sticking point is, you want to be Cassy's only deep emotional and physical relationship. I don't know where Cassy stands on this point, so it could be a sticking point.

I don't think there are any other substantial sticking points, but those two are enough. I do not know how to resolve the Bill question. As far as I can see, the only possible way to resolve it is for Cassy to stop being interested in Bill, or for you to become okay with her being involved with Bill. And I doubt either of those things is going to happen. I doubt either of those things can happen. I could be wrong of course.

You mentioned that you have a number of monogamous filters. I don't know if there's any chance that you could dissolve some of those filters, or if that would help. This may be something that you and your therapist could sort out. Does your therapist know that you and Cassy are negotiating the possibility of an open marriage? Does your therapist know about Cassy's thing with Bill? Would your therapist be supportive of the idea of an open marriage? You need to be able to depend on your therapist to be fair and impartial about those things.

One thing you don't want is a marriage where Cassy starts to resent you, or where you start to resent Cassy. If you can't reconcile these differences, you might need to think about the idea of an amicable divorce. I don't mean to speak of that like it's a done deal, I just think it is one of the possible outcomes and as such, you should be prepared for it. I can only hope that you won't have to play that card.

You have a difficult situation on your hands. I don't envy you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thank you for more info. So... more like "why BILL? He's practically my brother" feelings. Coupled with "I don't even know that I want to be doing that" feelings.

I was upset about the kiss description. To me, a kiss is a peck. I had to work to get the full description.

The other factors here are that Cassy immediately told Jane what happened the night of- before I got there. I didn't get told until the next day.

So you would have preferred her to disclose more up front and not last.


I could feel it was happening and thought it was really lame considering my very clearly articulated position that them being intimate makes me squirmy and somewhat angry.

So you are not up for being involved with these friends in this way.

I don't know that I am interested in polyamory (no offense new friends!) but I am interested in engaging in some new and playful fun alongside my wife. I don't think I can handle her having a deep emotional and physical relationship with another person. I just don't see how I can abide that.


So maybe you can tell her that in therapy? You are up for some Open things, but not full on poly. And NOT with these friends.

I'm worried that denying this arrangement will negatively affect my marriage. I'm worried that I'm not built to be in an open relationship.It's not what I signed up for many, many years ago.

All you can do is be honest. That this is not what you signed up for.

I'm worried that my wife wants what she wants, but if confronted with me engaging another person will feel differently. It feels that having this discussion successfully and ending up in a situation that everyone is comfortable with, is going to be extremely difficult.

Perhaps. But I don't think you can avoid having conversation. I'd still suggest same -- talk to individual therapist to get your thoughts in order first. Then with therapist's help, tell wife clearly what you are and are not up for.

If she wants to pursue? You cannot tell her what to do. But you can get off the bus. You can say "I don't want to do this. If you do, then I need to bow out first. We have to part ways." You are in charge of what you will and will not participate in. And if you don't want to be in some sort of poly network with these people, you do not have to be.

It's not a fun thing to think about. But you have to be able to say "I love you a whole lot. But not even for you will I do things that hurt me."

Galagirl
 
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Even though you and Cassy discussed messing around with other people, above the belt, years ago, you didn't expect her to do it with one of your best male friends, spontaneously and behind your back.

Sounds like a bit of a threesome happened already with Cassy and Bill and Jane, since Bill took a picture of both women with their tops pulled up, exposing their naked breasts. And they were "high" on intoxicants, maybe booze and weed... not out of their minds drunk, but obviously with lowered inhibitions, flirting, touching. Bill and Cassy made out and "groped" each other? He felt her naked breasts? No one touched each other's genitals? No dry humping? So what? It's still making out and feeling up. That's plenty sexual, as far as I'm concerned. A cock and a pussy were engorged. Maybe she even came from the kissing and the breast play, who knows. Entirely possible.

So they now have a long friendship and also a sexual crush on each other. And it seems Jane is on board, since she was told about the making out and the groping, and she joined in the fun naked breast picture taking that very evening.

You are alternately aroused and upset. This is normal. Opening up can be a rollercoaster. It's too bad you have to pry info out of Cassy though. That does not inspire trust.

You want to Open "together." Like many formerly mono couples. But swinging isn't right for a person who is demisexual, and/or polyamorous. Cassy wants Bill specifically. Not some rando at a swinger party. And you get the idea she doesn't want to watch you fuck some strange woman at a party either.

I think your first mistake was thinking it was OK to be sexual with someone "above the belt." People can get aroused just holding hands... Does footsie count as below the belt? Hm.

It sounds like you've got some unnegotiated sex thing happening with your wife and Bill. She must have told him, It's OK if we make out! My husband said so. And then they just went ahead while high/tipsy, and did it, behind your back. She got real turned on to Bill and gave you great sex later that night. Now you've got the "reclaiming" hornies... Now you're thinking there has to be "wife swapping," that you "should" be suddenly attracted to Jane.

No, you do NOT have to be attracted to her.

But it sounds like your good bro-type relationship with Bill is over. He ruined it by making out with your wife without making 100% sure you were OK with it.

I hope you can work this out in therapy. I'm glad you've been reading here and decided to post. Open communication is definitely the way to go, and therapy will help. Maybe you can really Open the relationship, but it's going to take some work, and clearer boundaries about everything, no more behind your back stuff. No more hiding what actually happened or is going to happen.

I'd say you request Cassy not see Bill or Jane until you're both more on the same page as to how to Open, if you can get there.

If she refuses to not see or text Bill... well, she's all het up on NRE like a schoolgirl. She's a bit crazed. She may be willing to give up your marriage to pursue someone else. :(
 
Thank you for these very thoughtful and generous responses. I am taking it all in and will continue to check in to see what other wisdom arises!

Best to all!
Caddyman
 
I don't know that I am interested in polyamory (no offense new friends!) but I am interested in engaging in some new and playful fun alongside my wife. I don't think I can handle her having a deep emotional and physical relationship with another person. I just don't see how I can abide that.

I have carefully read the opening post and read and skimmed (a little of both) the following posts here. Time constraints don't always allow me to read every detail carefully before chiming in.

The quoted material above perks my interest. You see, I'm the sort of person where what we might call "warm, affectionate human connection" is so woven together with erotic energy (sex) that I would feel very tightly constrained if my partner didn't want me to connect emotionally or "romantically" with any outside person -- while being willing for me to jump in the sack with them. I can do casual, but even in a casual situation I'd prefer it to be ongoing and for there to be a real human connection -- not just rubbing body parts together. (For some, anything more than rubbing body parts cannot be defined as "casual," though. For me, "casual" would be less than a full blown "romantic relationship" but more than a one night stand without that aforementioned "human connection'.

Anyway, you may want to talk about this "human connection" aspect with Cassy. She may not have any interest in sexual relating that doesn't allow for a "human connection".

Meanwhile, Caddyman, I'd encourage you to ponder about your social conditioning (enculturation) around intimacy, love and sex. That is, I'd encourage you to wonder about it from a little bit of a distance, if at all possible. By 'distance', I simply mean that it is a thing and that thing is not necessarily you. It's something you acquired by seeing movies and hearing songs and watching tv ... and being brought up in a monogamously oriented culture. I'd encourage you to examine this aspect of the culture as if you were an anthropologist from Mars, observing and thinking about it with open-minded curiosity. Then you will be able to decide if the monogamy orientation really works for you or not. But so long as it's basic, fundamental assumptions go unquestioned you're most likely going to just run that program without realizing what you're doing.

In my case, long ago, I realized that some basic premises of our culturally normal, monogamous frame on love and sex were ... well, incorrect. For example, love isn't at all like a pie. If I give half of a pie to someone, I then have only half a pie. But with love, the more love I give (and receive) the more love remains. It doesn't diminish by giving and receiving, but grows.

One of these days I'll sit down and list what I see as the basic premises of mandatory monogamy. Meanwhile, perhaps others here will help build this list(?). But those are the things we need to bring an open, questioning mind and heart to if we're going to give true openness a hearing or a fair shake.
 
Hi Caddyman - and welcome to the Forum. I see that you've received some excellent feedback already. I particularly noted this from River:

Meanwhile, Caddyman, I'd encourage you to ponder about your social conditioning (enculturation) around intimacy, love and sex. That is, I'd encourage you to wonder about it from a little bit of a distance, if at all possible. By 'distance', I simply mean that it is a thing and that thing is not necessarily you. It's something you acquired by seeing movies and hearing songs and watching tv ... and being brought up in a monogamously oriented culture. I'd encourage you to examine this aspect of the culture as if you were an anthropologist from Mars, observing and thinking about it with open-minded curiosity. Then you will be able to decide if the monogamy orientation really works for you or not. But so long as it's basic, fundamental assumptions go unquestioned you're most likely going to just run that program without realizing what you're doing.

A couple of years back, my wife asked me to open our marriage so she could ethically explore her resurgent feelings for an old college boyfriend (full story in link below). Ultimately, after a lot of processing, I agreed and we've come to the point where we both self identify as poly and both have other partners. But, key to my initial processing and eventual acceptance was the point that River makes above. I began to consider what my viewpoint might be if I had been raised in a society where poly (instead of mono) was the norm - which led me to realize that poly would seem completely natural, and that my belief in monogamy was primarily a cultural bias, and I was able to work from there to achieve a paradigm shift that allowed me to eventually accept the idea of my wife being intimate with another man. Something to ponder, perhaps.

I will add - as a practical matter - it became even more acceptable when I also had an intimate partner. You might want to consider that aspect as well. Maybe I missed it, but is there any connection between you and Jane? Is a quad a possibility? (Caveat: I do understand that they are very difficult to maintain). Are there other potential partners that you may already have a connection with?

Again, welcome to the Forum - and best of luck on your journey! Al
 
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But it sounds like your good bro-type relationship with Bill is over. He ruined it by making out with your wife without making 100% sure you were OK with it.
(

A bro-type relationship is still a "relationship". It CAN be salvaged if both parties do what needs to be done. (i.e. apologize and forgive, respectively). I am not saying that Mags is wrong, the "old" relationship is gone, any "new" relationship must acknowledge past transgressions.

I FUCK-ed up when I messed around with Dude. I was WRONG. (Details in my Journey blog here). MrS (the person who was wronged) did manage to forgive me...and then forgive Dude. That was 7+ years ago.

But I do think it would help to know what you are REALLY up for. What is your IDEAL relationship set-up? What are you indifferent to? What are you tolerant of?
 
Hi there,
I just want to point something out that no one here has acknowledged (at least that I've noticed). In poly/open relationships, there is the idea of "messy" people, or "off limits" type people. I am probably using the wrong terminology here but it's 530am where I am right now. I am talking about those outside potential partners that are especially complicated (like someone's family, close friends, etc) where things are uncomfortable for another partner and negotiating is especially tricky. It seems to me Bill would fall into this category. I am kind of annoyed that no one has acknowledged this to the OP and validated his feelings towards this. This is one of my issues with poly... I have felt that sometimes the person experiencing the sh*tty feelings gets everything thrown back at them, "you have to own this, figure it out, communicate blah blah blah." No. It is okay to feel upset, weird, uncomfortable, about your wife wanting to have sex with your close friend and this not being okay with you. It is okay to not want her to do this. It is obviously not okay to be controlling about it, and YES, there has to communication. I completely empathize with you, OP. You can try to process this all you want but at the end of the day, your feelings are yours and you don't have to change them. What you may need to come to terms with, is whether you can handle it if your wife moves forward with this, and if doing this is worth it to her enough to jeopardize your relationship or hurt you.

In one way, I have been where your wife is (sorta). I brought "poly" to my husband because of an intense crush on a male friend that lasted over 2 years and I didn't know what to do with it. In a sense, this also wasn't a neutral playing field. What was different about my situation, is this guy friend was not my husband's friend, and he didn't even know him. We really do not date each other's friends, we have not laid down specific boundaries about this, but it is sort of understand, because not only do we not want to make each other feel potentially weird, but we do not want to risk friendships if things go south. This is another thing that has not been addressed yet. What if your wife were to get involved with Bill, and things got messy and didn't work out? I know I am really future tripping here, but this comes to mind for me because I would be thinking about it myself.

I just wanted you to feel heard and to know that this situation really does feel "unfair" whatever that's worth. You have been kind of blindsided and this has been brought up to you AFTER things already happened and she has "possibilities" lined up. I am not trying to be negative. I think you are doing all the right things, between the therapy, communication, and being especially open-minded and patient. Things could end up working out well in the end.

Please keep us posted and let us know how we can support you!!
 
OP, you have my empathy. Your feelings are normal. Understandable.

You have had some outstanding comments, I read them all.

I have to validate something you said that is extremely important:

First, when affair partners know they are doing wrong, they minimize their actions and subject you to "trickle truth".

In this case, a "kiss" turns out to be a salacious make-out session with groping. You can't be sure you have all of it yet, because under the principle of trickle truth it is only when confronted by direct video and audio proof that they admit to everything.

Anyway, you are the last to know, and even then it is just a little at a time so as to minimize its true gravity and have you concede by ignorance at first and then later, well - you conceded to more than you thought because they were lying by omission.

I am throwing the penalty flag here. What if they weren't playing footsie under the table, but instead hiding pizza they had ordered. Everyone but you is enjoying it, and they continue to sneak pieces while you stand there as a fool knowing something is up, but not exactly what. You called it "lame". I would say disrespectful, and it was followed by more.

They've already told you that they know they are in the wrong. Specifically, it is the "above the belt" agreement. So they're in a pattern now of acting defensively and manipulating you. Because they started off below the belt.

This thing didn't just pop into existence the day you discovered it. We are taught that such things develop over a series of lesser events and the dam broke maybe this time - but you should have gotten warning before it broke. If you press, and if they're honest, that will out: whatever the precursers were to the night of boob-bobbling.

Psychologists call it the "double bind" when people put you in a no-win situation. No matter what you do, you lose. They already "did it". You are a spoil sport if you put a stop to it. If you allow more, they got it by underhanded means and you still lose. It is extremely important that you have information concealed from you, in order to place you in the double-bind. It has to be too late. If you knew a month before this that something was brewing, you could have gotten your feelings about it out on the table, and a person who knows you can predict what they will be. Therefore, to the lovers, act first and explain later.

My wife and I have a rule that we call or text each other the moment anything starts happening with potential intimacy. You don't seek approval after the fact and it isn't like an emergency where I have to feel someone's boobs right now this very instant. Like I am a Neanderthal having no control over myself.

People can recover from bad decisions and the resentment it has caused. But they first have to acknowledge what they did. As I see this, the wife and new lover need to acknowledge your very reasonable feelings. That you are confused because they have already established a precedent of acting first and filling you in later, and even then only partially. You don't know everything still now, in my view.

If it isn't going to proceed in accordance with your wishes, things are going to go badly. Is there an emergency here where this has to happen, with this guy, right now? Nope.

Best of luck to you, and warm regards.
 
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I understand cheating and that it is a betrayal. And betrayals are hurtful and damaging; I totally get that.

But I don't think I could be in a relationship in which physical intimacy with others would be cheating and a betrayal. I don't believe human beings are built for monogamy -- at least not the kind of monogamy which stipulates that physical intimacy with others is off limits.
 
MayDecember, I completely resonate with everything you just said!!!! You put it out there so articulately and gracefully. It's like what I was thinking but could not put into words with my brain fog.
 
MayDecember, I completely resonate with everything you just said!!!! You put it out there so articulately and gracefully. It's like what I was thinking but could not put into words with my brain fog.

You are so kind, and be charitable about yourself.

I have a bit of a background. I have published some things. But I will identify myself if I direct anyone to them.

But it is in the area of relationships and personality disorders.
 
Hi again new friends. I took a long weekend off devices and was out of town with my daughter for a couple of days. I’ve been following along the comments and wanted to thank everyone for the shared wisdom. These meaningful responses have helped propel me towards further understanding. Knowing that others have found themselves in similar situations has helped to normalize my experience. Still stuck in this particular chapter but the journey and narrative continue to advance.

I reached out to a male friend (from a different friend-group) who is in the midst of a very serious, if not fatal, problem in his marriage, and decided to open up to him about everything. We are meeting once a week for coffee to just talk. It has been helpful. I am feeling good about being able to listen and focus on his serious situation and he has been supportive of my plight. I really needed someone besides Cassy or our therapist to talk to. Cassy and I lined up sessions with our therapist once a week for the next three weeks. I plan to go alone this week. I am planning on sending the therapist this link prior to our meeting, as I think it will be really helpful.

Having had a few days to ruminate on my situation and some of the feedback here, I guess I’ve come to one conclusion that kdt26417 pointed out immediately- the sticking point is Bill. I think that is what I was trying to say with my opening post. I continue to have a hard time plumbing the notion of opening our marriage/polyamory when he is a player in the discussion. My feelings towards him have certainly evolved over the last couple of months. I went from desperately wanting to normalize our friendship through blanket absolutions like, “we are good” to now feeling quite a bit of resentment. I’ve decided to write Bill a letter and explain some of the feelings that I have had about him and our friendship. As was pointed out a couple times here, it seems I need to be honest with Bill (I have been dismissive about his role so far out of deference to Cassy). I plan to let him know that I felt he was wrong to engage Cassy without making sure I was ok with it. That he should have sent his message about a three-way to Cassy and myself, and that by sending it to Cassy alone, he broke another layer of trust. The crazy thing about all of this is that if I explicitly told Bill to “Stay the hell away from my wife!” I believe it would be done. As in, Dorothy having the power to go home all along. But I think I correctly determined (backed up by several of you) that to be controlling would have only led to resentment even possibly a fatal blow to our relationship. I plan on forgiving Bill, but I do think that he needs to apologize for us to make things right.

As far as things go with Cassy, I believe she has mostly burned through her NRE at this point. She got a bit down and felt very non-sexual for a couple of weeks. I pointed out that I had been the sole initiator “reclaiming hornies” and gently pointed out when she was turning down my advances. I think we are back at a clearer picture of the two of us in all aspects of our marriage. The passage of time has cleared away a lot of noise for us both and I suspect that we will be able to go back to dealing with one another with more empathy and generosity. I’m quite sure that part of the attraction to having another physical and emotional relationship outside of us was because I was lacking in many ways. I believe I have made serious strides in improving both our relationship as well as my own personal (mental/physical/sexual) health.

Here is where I have come to understand something from you all: even if I do everything in my power to improve and work on our relationship and try to be the best partner I can be, she may still feel like she is lacking in some ways. And now I accept and understand that that is not my failing or fault. I am not putting in effort at improvement in our relationship and on myself personally as part of a rescue mission, I am doing it because it feels good and right and continues to reenforce why I felt I wanted to be with Cassy for the rest of my life. I feel more strongly about that now then I did 15 years ago. And that, in turn, has helped me feel better about myself, which seems to be helping our relationship. A positive chain reaction is in effect on my end.

So now to address the flavor of this forum- “How are you feeling about polyamory, Caddyman”? Well, the picture is becoming more clear for me. I believe that some people are born gay, that’s just who they are. Social conditioning works against them but they (hopefully) push back and are able to find the strength and support to be who they are despite heterosexual enculturation. I believe some people may choose to be gay or bisexual because they don’t allow dominate social norms to override their wants and desires. Good on them too. In my understanding of polyamory so far, I think this might be a fair analogy. Maybe some people are born hard-wired to love many and maybe some learn to love many. Maybe some are not capable of being in a relationship with a partner who loves many? Maybe I’m dead wrong.

If I am approximately learned in my understanding, I would definitely not be in the hard-wired category. Whether I can learn is another story. While I was out of town, I tried to imagine that this was the first time Cassy was going to meet up with another for what could be an on-going physical and emotional relationship. After all, she had the weekend off and the house to herself. I found that as I worked through these scenarios, I found that it wasn’t that upsetting. I imagined Cassy being very happy and free. That helped me to feel happy and free. I did get stuck on a few things here and there, but all in all, it didn’t feel like the end of the world if she were to meet up with an old-flame or new acquaintance to fill out her emotional and physical needs. Maybe all she needs is to hear that I am open to that and nothing will become of it? Maybe in a few years we will have both moved in this direction? Hopefully our marriage remains dominant throughout and we are able to grow old together.

Which brings me to my last point- “messy people”. It was a huge relief to see this addressed in your comments. Structure is so hugely important and dictates so much. It helped validate some of my insecurities about all of this. Bill is a messy person. He is hugely meshed in our lives. We live in a small town. We vacation together. I see him frequently around town. Our friend-group is tight-knit. If there was intimacy between Bill and Cassy, our friends would suss it out. When I spent time away thinking of scenarios where there was another relationship, it only worked in my mind if that person was firmly outside of our friend-group. I don’t think that would be at all unreasonable. Especially to start. No-one from work and no-one from our day-to-day friend group. Exceptions could be made at some point, but I can see that this is something that I will not be able to get past at this time. I am being true to myself and offering up opportunity for this type of relationship growth, but not offering to allow myself to be hurt in the process. Another helpful theme picked up from you all.

Thanks again for all the support, well-wishes and frank truths. I especially appreciated reading the blogs and links to some of your stories- really helped to put things in perspective. I will continue looking for feedback and working on this chapter and sharing with you all. I’m guessing, like myself a couple months ago, there are a few people following along to gain insights on their situations. I wish the best for us all!
 
Glad you were able to talk to another friend and Cassy is calming down from NRE.

even if I do everything in my power to improve and work on our relationship and try to be the best partner I can be, she may still feel like she is lacking in some ways. And now I accept and understand that that is not my failing or fault. I am not putting in effort at improvement in our relationship and on myself personally as part of a rescue mission, I am doing it because it feels good and right and continues to reenforce why I felt I wanted to be with Cassy for the rest of my life.

Glad to hear you say that. It's good that you are working on yourself to be healthy you.

And no. 100% of your relating effort is only 50% of the fuel to sustain a relationship. Cassy has to do her fair share in tending the relationship too. It would not be your fault if you are trying your best and she's not doing anything and it fizzles.

If I am approximately learned in my understanding, I would definitely not be in the hard-wired category. Whether I can learn is another story.

Well, you won't know til you try. You don't sound like the very idea is a turn off. So you aren't in the "this is a total deal breaker" category either.

Maybe all she needs is to hear that I am open to that and nothing will become of it?

Well, could ask her if the compromise place is being Open enough for her to share her poly thoughts and feelings with you. And Closed enough for you in that neither one dates other people. More emotional and mental intimacy between you two.

Maybe in a few years we will have both moved in this direction? Hopefully our marriage remains dominant throughout and we are able to grow old together

You could express that to Cassy. Or print your last update and give it to her to read.

What happens if the marriage is NOT "dominant" -- and Cassy wants it to be "co-primary partners" instead? Is that a deal-breaker to you?

Which brings me to my last point- “messy people”. It was a huge relief to see this addressed in your comments.

Well, yeah, it's been messy. Bill has not been a great friend to you doing this stuff like this. He has a share in the situation making along with Cassy. People can make mistakes, so hopefully he does apologize and owns it.

Don't make your letter to him a novel of oversharing though. It can be a short

  • Here is what you did…
  • This is wrong because…
  • Here is what you could have done instead…
  • I would like an apology

"I'm upset, Bill. I though you were my friend, and you go making out with Cassy without even checking in with me for my goodwill or consent or anything. It was wrong because it was behind my back. Instead, you could have told me ahead of time you wanted to develop something with Cassy.

I'm sorting out my upset with her separately.

From you, I would like an apology and explanation. This behavior on your part has caused a ding in our friendship."

When I spent time away thinking of scenarios where there was another relationship, it only worked in my mind if that person was firmly outside of our friend-group. I don’t think that would be at all unreasonable. Especially to start. No-one from work and no-one from our day-to-day friend group. Exceptions could be made at some point, but I can see that this is something that I will not be able to get past at this time. I am being true to myself and offering up opportunity for this type of relationship growth, but not offering to allow myself to be hurt in the process.

With Cassie you are going to have to tell her who your messy people are now that you clarified it to yourself. Ask she can stick with that for now IF you decide to try Open.

The only two things you haven't mentioned in your update that I can see so far is...

What happens if you Open? When will you be "Out" to people and what people? Or will this be a secret thing from your closest friends and family forever?

What if you an Cassy Open. And it has to end. What does ending well look like?

  • If the Open thing ends, and you and Cassy try to return to being Closed together?

  • If the Open thing ends, and you and Casey end up each single?

Spend time thinking that out too. Do not agree to Open without thinking it out. Emergency preparedness is your responsibility.

Galagirl
 
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We live in a small town. We vacation together. I see him frequently around town. Our friend-group is tight-knit. If there was intimacy between Bill and Cassy, our friends would suss it out. When I spent time away thinking of scenarios where there was another relationship, it only worked in my mind if that person was firmly outside of our friend-group. I don’t think that would be at all unreasonable.

It's wise.

We have a distance rule. Like not her sister, lol. It was an option both her sister and I would LOVED to have fulfilled years ago but now we are just great in-laws.

So in time decisions like that, you'll be glad you made them.
 
I'm glad the top of the NRE has come and gone. Hopefully. And things are calmer, maybe a bit more rational.

You said "if there was intimacy between Cassy and Bill, our friends would suss it out." There HAS been intimacy, and Bill's wife was in on it too. Brief as it was. But it hasn't gone beyond the 4 of you, since it happened? No gossip?
 
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