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Old 06-08-2018, 10:57 AM
Ravenscroft Ravenscroft is offline
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Default Why polyamory is a CHOICE

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Originally Posted by Ravenscroft View Post
Again: polyamory is a choice -- period.
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Originally Posted by PurpleSun View Post
It is not a choice for me. You don't get to define that for other people.
Yes, actually -- I can, & will, & in fact be correct.

I'll take it in a stepwise fashion, for clarity. This may take a few entries, as I have a busy weekend.
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Firstly, you (like others in the previous thread) are probably attempting to say "I was actually nonmonogamous before I knew I was nonmonogamous... AND before I had any experience -- or even desire -- to be intimately involved simultaneously with more than one person... AND before I knew it was even a possibility, let alone an option."

(If that's incorrect, please elucidate.)

Statements such as that have always bothered me, for at least two reasons.
  1. It is a core part of human nature to learn, grow, adapt, evolve. IMO, any statement of "I evolved" is (if accurate) deserving of a "well, DUH " before a "congratulations!"
  2. It is just another attempt to leech onto the Gay Rights movement, with neither the background nor the effort. (Polyamory has never been a movement, & likely never will be.)

"I've been THAT WAY all along, just didn't know it" is at best mere post hoc rationalization, generally a softened "I've always known" which is a one-upmanship boast equivalent to "I'm better than all you dimwitted jerks who're just figuring it out!"

If that weren't its purpose, you would see a gaggle of "ooh, me too!" every time someone makes the claim.

I've known guys who were happily heterosexual, right up until they met Mister Right. They certainly didn't start proclaiming they'd been "gay all along."
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Since some people here are latching onto details they want to argue with, & ignoring the rest, let me reiterate --
Nonmonogamy is a practice.
Polyamory is a philosophy.


When someone types "poly" or "polyamory," easily nine times of ten what they MEAN is nonmonogamy.

Anyone can be nonmon (including monofolk). But to be polyamorous requires all sorts of stuff, not least being actual experience at maintaining more than one simultaneous intimate relationship -- until it's "road-tested," it's NOTHING BUT IDLE SPECULATION.

You can be obsessed with being a helicopter pilot. Until you get behind the stic -- & survive -- you have NO right to call yourself "a helicopter pilot" & can get in deep shit for trying to demonstrate otherwise.

Personally, I dislike applying the term "polyamory" to my life, as I was involved in responsible nonmonogamy a few years before anyone outside CAW knew about MGZ's neologism, & what we'd created had already surpassed the still-vague "definition."

Whether RM or polyamory, there IS at least one way to "do it right," & LOTS of opportunity to Muck It Up Badly. People like me have little to do with "defining" it, as the term's been around more than a generation, 30+ years.

I am in no way "defining polyamory" much less "for other people," though that's a common plaint from someone who finds themselves busted for trying to twist "poly" to fit their prejudices. I (like a few others here) am rather trying to codify what's actually occurred, to give some attention to what's actually worked out, & to examine the problems & disasters & how they were (or might have been) repaired.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:07 AM
Ravenscroft Ravenscroft is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapinaTricycle View Post
polyamory is illegal (as in marrying 2 people).
I hope you see where that statement is nonsensical.
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First, "polyamory" is not illegal -- show me any one law where it has been explicitly outlawed.

Such claims are bullshit lies I hear among the "poly" who like to give themselves & each other a little thrill for being "naughty" & defying Mom/God/country & Going Up Against The Man & therefore trade warm fuzzies for being such enlightened & forward-looking revolutionaries.

There aren't enough in the world to cover that outlook.
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Second, polyamory has NOTHING to do with "marrying two people."

It's a conceit (usually of noobs ) that anything past absolute monogamy (including idle fantasy) is "polyamory." That's about as right as saying that everyone who's ever had at least one enjoyable same-gender sexual encounter is thereby homosexual -- that would be like 25%-33% of the population depending which studies I cite.

IMNSHO, it would be better all 'round if everyone still enchanted with "marriage" & the rest of the Relationship Escalator would remain squarely in monogamy rather than keep trying to drag Monogamism into polyamory, or at least CEASE trying to stretch "polyamory" to fit their irrational needs to please Family & Society. There are plenty of people who are happily unmarried, & anyone waving marriage as superior is inappropriate at best. Be married AND behave polyamorously, but move past the '50s & STOP with the "poly marriage" crap.

As the previous thread demonstrates, there are MANY "poly" people who either cannot distinguish polyamory from general nonmonogamy, or believe they personally benefit in some way from maintaining the confusion. So, let me clarify.

Polyamory is a SUBSET of nonmonogamy.

Polyamory REQUIRES all sorts of stuff, particularly communication of a high degree (which includes introspection, self-disclosure, empathy, trust, dialogue). Without such practices, polyamory tends to rapidly become a disaster area, & the participants usually blame "poly" (not themselves) for letting them down.

It's not uncommon to have people speak of "successful polyamory" because so many people grasp intuitively that there IS ACTUALLY at least one RIGHT way of being poly in the sea of assorted WRONG.

Generalized nonmonogamy has no such requirements. People are free to pretty much do whatever the hell they want. It can work out smoothly for all involved, or be one big ongoing disaster built from many small disasters, or anything between. As a likely result, I have NEVER heard the phrase "successful nonmonogamy."

The "communication" stuff that's important in polyamory would likely be highly useful in other nonmon forms, & in monomany, & actually in daily interaction with just about anyone.

Then again, there are apparently plenty of married dyads who fail at communication & equality & all that "poly" stuff, yet venture forth in search of "our third." Certainly some few actually manage this, so there we are with a vee or triad that doesn't know the firstthing about polyamory, much less how to make it work well, so they just stumble along doing the same old Monogamist mistruth & self-deception that was "good enough for Grampa." That's why FLDS-type polygamy is NOT polyamory.

In other words, "marriage+1" can be nothing like actual polyamory.
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:39 PM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Citation needed ... I've never seen a source that comes right out and defines polyamory as, "successful and with good communication." Does such a source exist? Wiktionary is user-supplied but then so is Wikipedia. So something other than those two sources.

Re: communication ... does not strike me as a black/white dichotomy (that is, "good communication" and "bad communication"), it's more like there are degrees of how good communication is (or can be). I fancy that communication is a fine art, and if it can be mastered at all it would take many lifetimes.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:22 AM
lunabunny lunabunny is offline
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Yes, polyamory is a practice and a choice.

What's more, it is one that hinges on the ability to truly LOVE and/or be "in love with" two or more people simultaneously... AND the practice of constructing ethical, working relationships around this ability/desire/need.

Hence, not every person who is inclined to non-monogamy is "polyamorous". For example, married people who have affairs or one night stands, swingers or those who enjoy group sex in the confines of a mono relationship are not practising polyamory, though they cannot be considered monogamous.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:04 AM
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Default I never said polyamory is a movement.

And whether or not it is a movement has NOTHING to do with my personal life experience. I am oriented to be this way, and nothing you say will make me believe otherwise.

Again, who the hell are you to define the lives and experiences of someone you don't even know? This is incredibly arrogant.

Also, you took my post from another thread and started an entire thread to attack me. I will be reporting this thread as personal harassment.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:20 AM
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PurpleSun PurpleSun is offline
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Quote:
Firstly, you (like others in the previous thread) are probably attempting to say "I was actually nonmonogamous before I knew I was nonmonogamous... AND before I had any experience -- or even desire -- to be intimately involved simultaneously with more than one person... AND before I knew it was even a possibility, let alone an option."
No. I knew I could love more than one person as a teenager. Even in my first, very young relationships, I felt stifled and miserable and I would simultaneously care for the person I was with but also for others. I just had been socialized into monogamy and viewed that as wrong/cheating. So I was a serial monogamist until I was 19, and then discovered a throuple who were happy when I went to Michigan Womyn's Festival. That was how I found out that there were people who were just like me.

So, no, you're wrong. I've always loved others. Still, though, again, I find it wildly inappropriate that you took my quote, without my permission, to arrogantly attack my life experiences in a whole new thread in a whole new forum without even having the courtesy of telling me. That is harassing behavior.
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Old 06-13-2018, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Citation needed ... I've never seen a source that comes right out and defines polyamory as, "successful and with good communication." Does such a source exist? Wiktionary is user-supplied but then so is Wikipedia. So something other than those two sources.

Re: communication ... does not strike me as a black/white dichotomy (that is, "good communication" and "bad communication"), it's more like there are degrees of how good communication is (or can be). I fancy that communication is a fine art, and if it can be mastered at all it would take many lifetimes.

Just some thoughts.
I agree. It's like saying that a mono person who sucks at relationships is not really a mono person. But really, I haven't seen anyone but Ravenscroft have such a strict view.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:19 AM
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Ravenscroft, it's odd that you felt the need to start a new thread as opposed to keeping the discussion in one thread.

As I said in the other thread, I think humans as a whole are not meant to be monogamous. I do agree with whoever said that it can be hard to discern what is natural or not due to the religious and social conditioning.

Unlike you, I do prefer a looser definition. Because of that, I can identify with PurpleSun. I have always had the capacity to love more than one. However, because of social pressures, I wasn't able to have simultaneous relationships. I can be happy in a monogamous relationship for a short time, but never long term.

It's fine for you to define what poly is for you, but she's right that you don't get to define it for everyone.
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Old 06-13-2018, 04:52 PM
AutumnLeaves AutumnLeaves is offline
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Every time I come across some argument like this (are people born queer or is it a choice?) (are you born trans or is it a choice?) (are you born poly or is it a choice?) it seems to me like a ridiculous question.

People ARE queer, trans, poly, and all sorts of other things. We should respect them and what they say about their own identities. Period.
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:14 PM
HurtandConfused HurtandConfused is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnLeaves View Post
People ARE queer, trans, poly, and all sorts of other things. We should respect them and what they say about their own identities. Period.
well said
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