Redpepper's journey

. . . he could deal with you having girlfriends but not so much having other boyfriends.

I remember that.

Yes, and he explicitly stated many times that if you were to develop a romantic relationships with any other men after him, that he would start to lose his connection to you. But you pursued Brad and then were surprised that Mono sought solace elsewhere.

We've pointed that out to you before, and you said you forgot about that, even though I remember him getting into arguments with people about it here.

But whatever. I think that the most amazing thing is that Mono, instead of pulling away completely from you, chose to see if poly will work for him, so he can have both you AND someone else. How cool is that? I still don't understand why you're not happy about that and are choosing to be all upset and brokenhearted.

I still also don't understand why you broke it off with Brad and Derby. Is there something we are all missing in the story? Your reaction is so far from what any of us would expect, I think it is throwing many of us off. I really don't know if it's better to console you, assure you, or pinch you. It really seems to be a case of, as Cleo called it in her blog about what she was going through, having a "false sense of power."

What does PN say about your sudden shift in mood and attitude? Is he worried about you? Have you talked about all this with him in detail?
 
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Mono wrote way back in the beginning that he needed you and your husband to be having er, i forget the exact words he used but "healthy and active sex life" would not be too far off base, in order for him (Mono) to be able to function in that relationship with you.

So there was that, and also the thing about how he could deal with you having girlfriends but not so much having other boyfriends.

I remember that.
Yup. He did. For some reason the ramifications of that didn't sink in, nor did it occur to me that things change and that we might have to deal with this one day. Well, maybe it did. But really, what does one do, just not be with someone because things change? No. There was no avoiding it. I will stay in this as is until someone makes a move... could be me, or anyone.
 
Hey there. Just out of curiosity, I did a little search and found something PN wrote to you in this forum. It's really beautiful, and generous, and really all about how loving someone need not have limitations or be made to fit into a little box.

I think what he wrote, which was from his perspective to you, could also be something from your perspective, that you could apply to looking at your relationship with Mono, or anyone you love. I bolded the parts that stood out to me:

redpepper wrote: "I am at a weird transition with him in that I am not sure of my role in his life."

I can understand how this is unsettling for you. A lot has happened, and continues to happen. Many things have changed. Personally, I think it is a momentous occasion to be able to throw some of the roles that we have played into the trash. It's the beginning of another level of freedom. The freedom to BE.

redpepper wrote: "I am not what he would like me to be. "

On the contrary. I want you to be *you*. You are doing that. How could I not want that? Many years ago, I did not fall in love with a "thing," I fell in love with a person: you.

redpepper wrote: "I am just as loved, but I am off in another direction, pulled by Mono and now derby and others in my life."

Your and my paths run parallel, then intermingle, then cross, then jet off away from one another, then turn, then jet towards one another, then cross, then intermingle, then run parallel again. Such is the magical dance of our relationship. In whatever part of the dance you or I may feel that we are at in this particular moment, we are still in the dance. We are *always* in the dance.

with love, Polynerdist
 
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I wasn't trying to make it out like "I told you so" or something. Although, I do fail to realize why you need to tear it all down just to make things better here and there.
 
Yes, and he explicitly stated many times that if you were to develop a romantic relationships with any other men after him, that he would start to lose his connection to you. But you pursued Brad and then were surprised that Mono sought solace elsewhere.

We've pointed that out to you before, and you said you forgot about that, even though I remember him getting into arguments with people about it here.

But whatever. I think that the most amazing thing is that Mono, instead of pulling away completely from you, chose to see if poly will work for him, so he can have both you AND someone else. Howling cool is that! I still don't understand why iyou're noit happy about that and are choosing to be all upset and brokenhearted.
I
I still also don't understand why you broke it off with Brad and Derby. Is there something we are all missing in the story? Your reaction is so far from what any of us would expect, I think it is throwing many of us off and I really don't know if it's better to console you, assure you, or pinch you. It really seems to be a case of, as Cleo called it in her blog about what she was going through, having a "false sense of power."

What does PN say about your sudden shift in mood and attitude? Is he worried about you? Have you talked about all this with him in detail?
It's been pointed out to me before that Mono said he would not be okay with me dating another guy. I pushed that. I guess because I had in the back of my mind that I needed to ride the thing through and then be available monogamously. I did. I am. He's not there with me on that page now. My bad. I fucked it up. Now he says he never could be with me unless PN is with me, and that was how it was for him all along.

How can I be cool with Mono seeing someone else, when I am ready to try out monogamy and he isn't? Where should I conjure that up from? I'm trying. I recite in my head everything I know about poly and am still here in this with him. Is that not enough? I'm here. I haven't left.

Poly, as I knew it, is not fitting for me anymore right now and I want to try something else. I needed a moment of my history together with Mono to just be us two and I am not getting it. I needed to heal from his actions and build our relationship up after suddenly realizing that I love him more than anyone and he was looking elsewhere. I didn't get that either.

I am not getting what works for me. Yeah, that sounds controlling. But when everything your body and gut says to you is NOOOOOOO! What else can I do but wait, recite poly theory in my head, breathe, try not to become so disconnected I leave and wait some more? That is not controlling. That is allowing him to control.

I don't talk about it. I give him his space. I don't approach her. I am in control of nothing here. It's all how they want it to be. It's all how everyone wants it to be. I have given up a lot of it and in doing so am trying not to give up and start again. I have a good home life and a chance at good friends. I can see that and it's worth it for that.

I don't expect anyone to get it. I don't get it. Telling myself to buck up and realize he loves me anyway only goes so far. I am not hearing much about all that from him, in the form of reassurance, because he doesn't want me to think I should rely on him to be there. He has his life to live and I am just a part of that.

I don't mean as much to him as he does to me. That has become evident. That is my heartbreak. I feel as if I caused that, as much as he feels he never would commit just to me, due to his past. He's got to play this out now and he intends to. I will wait as long as I can.

Fucking confusing.

I am still seeing Brad. He wants that. I want that too, but I don't know where it's going. I want something different than he does also. I talk to PN but it upsets him, so I try to keep it to basics and when there is news.
 
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I don't mean as much to him as he does to me. That has become evident. That is my heartbreak.

A different perspective (it might not be pertinent, but whoever knows what words might be meaningful to another?):

I don't believe that GG means as much to me as I do to him. (SHEESH, I know I'm getting serious when I start writing real names and have to edit!)

That has been true from day one, 20 years ago. In the beginning, I pushed him away, because I felt it was the "right thing to do" since I knew he wasn't ever going to be my "one and only" or even my "primary only," or whatever. (I really lacked terminology then and it's only marginally better now.)

Eventually, I gave in to having more than friendship with him, but spent many years trying to make use of our FWB status, to eek out details of what he wanted in a full-time woman, so I could try to find that perfect lady for him. That failed also.

Finally, I accepted that he is who he is. He's stood up to all I could put in his way, including having me full time and then losing me suddenly to whoever tickled my full-time fancy. He has chosen to make his life about me. I haven't chosen to return the favor. He is a PART of my life, a meaningful part, but he isn't the most important part of my life and never will be.

Sometimes, I imagine that must be devastating for him, although he very rarely says anything to confirm that for me. But, I know it is OFTEN devastating for me, the knowing that I am not willing to give him that much of myself and knowing that someone else probably would, because I do love him and I would happily support him having someone else, if he would do it.

It's painful to acknowledge and accept that the level of meaning and importance differ between two lovers. But, part of the strength and confidence in our relationship is that we do acknowledge and accept that great difference. Much like what PN wrote to you (quoted by someone else above) we share a dance. Often, I choose to dance with other partners, but always, he remains a part of the dance.

It's an odd thing, when we all started talking, Maca felt that Mono was so much like GG and I DEFINITELY see why. Of course I also see the very obvious similarities he has with Maca. But the telling thing for me in all of this, watching your life being lived, your stories develop, is that from day one, I felt he was so much more similar to me.

Maca thought I was nuts. But, the further the story goes, the more it seems to be true. Even though the most basic "easy for the world to see" details seemed to be similar to Maca or GG, when he wrote, he mirrored so many of my thoughts and beliefs. And even now, his actions and choices seem to mirror my internal workings.

I don't believe this will "fix" anything. But sometimes a person WANTS to be something, but they accept that they aren't ever going to be, for any number of reasons including life experience.

I don't think Mono CAN be what you have now decided you wish he would be for you. I don't think it's for lack of care or love. Just as I care and love GG. It's because he isn't able to put together enough of the puzzle of himself to guarantee that he can do right by you that way, and he won't take that risk. Not for you, not for anyone.

If I am right, I totally know how he feels. And even reading about your heartbreak and pain, which I have devoted myself to doing, I understand his distance. Because I have held myself aloof and distant similarly when GG tried to press me for a more significant commitment.
 
Thanks for PN's writing on being "in the dance." I'm pondering for a bit on that.

My first reaction is one of anger today. I am not wanting to be in a dance of poly. I have reached poly burn out. Fuck the dance. I want some simple little life of good friends, happy family and someone who I can pour my heart into. Yeah, backward for a poly forum. Reactionary perhaps... Maybe I will recoup and see it the poly way again, but for now I seem to be unable. I seem to be moving toward working on my abandonment baggage, etc. and making a fool of myself for someone it would likely be better to say goodbye to.
 
. . . I had in the back of my mind that I needed to ride the thing through and then be available monogamously. I did. I am.

. . . How can I be cool with Mono seeing someone else when I am ready to try out monogamy and he isn't?

So, now you are saying that:

during all this time while you were happily ensconced in your poly arrangements with a husband, gf, and bf, and some occasional/tertiary and non-sexual bfs...

fighting your parents for custody of your child in your poly household...

leading a local poly group...

speaking at poly events...

giving advice here on how to manage polyamorous relationships...

and professing that you were just baffled by monogamy because you just didn't understand it AT ALL...

that it was really part of your grand plan since the beginning of your relationship with Mono to just play along and make him deal with your being poly for a period of time until such time that you would miraculously become monogamous and shed all your other relationships, including your marriage, just for him? And now you say you've reached that point, but the timing is off because he doesn't want that? Seriously?

Don't you find it rather curious that you never once spoke about nor considered being monogamous yourself UNTIL Mono met another woman he wants to be in a relationship with?

This sounds more like scrambling to hold onto what was, deep insecurity, and maintaining some sort of control, than a plan gone awry. Are you being really honest with yourself? It seems to me that you are spinning yourself in circles trying hard not to look at the truth of what is happening. I wonder how far you will carry on with deluding yourself.

I feel for you, RP, I really do. I won't post anymore on your blog, as I don't want you to think I am scolding you. I am really not. But I'm concerned for you.

A while back, you said you would consider therapy. Perhaps the time is now.
 
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You might be right LR. He has said as much. It's me who needs to figure out where I fit in that realization once and for all. I am not a half-way person. I want to give him everything and he doesn't want it or to give me the same. I want to focus everything I was on everyone on him and me. This spells moving on... We are coming from completely different places.

Even when I was with many loves I wanted that eventually with someone. I always wanted that deep inside and took years to admit it. It scares him shitless as it somehow means he has to take care of something more in my life. All I ask is fidelity. (Can you believe this is RP talking? I can't, sometimes.) Maybe he is just not the one to do that kind of work with. Maybe I am completely insane.

Its been 17 years of poly for me. I'm tired. What can I say? Tired and looking for answers and relief in some way. I wish I could just let it go, but something isn't allowing me to.
 
So, now you are saying that:

during all this time while you were happily ensconced in your poly arrangements with a husband, gf, and bf, and some occasional/tertiary and non-sexual bf's...

fighting your parents for custody of your child in your poly household...

leading a local poly group...

speaking at poly events...

giving advice here on how to manage polyamorous relationships...

and professing that you were just baffled by monogamy because you just didn't understand it AT ALL...

that it was really part of your grand plan since the beginning of your relationship with Mono to just play along and make him deal with your being poly for a period of time until such that you would miraculously become monogamous and shed all your other relationships, including your marriage, just for him? And now you say you've reached that point but the timing is off because he doesn't want that? Seriously?

Don't you find it rather curious that you never once spoke about nor considered being monogamous yourself UNTIL Mono met another woman he wants to be in a relationship with?

This sounds more like scrambling to hold onto what was, deep insecurity, and maintaining some sort of control, than a plan gone awry. Are you being really honest with yourself? It seems to me that you are spinning yourself in circles trying hard not to look at the truth of what is happening. I wonder how far along you will carry on with deluding yourself -- I feel for you, RP, I really do. I won't post any more on your blog, as I don't want you to think I am scolding you - and I am really not. But I'm concerned for you. A while back, you said you would consider therapy - perhaps the time is now.
Yup. Essentially that's it. See? I'm really not right in the head.

We did talk of the future and not wanting poly eventually. It was far away for him. To me it was a closer thing. I don't want anyone to think that poly is not a good option. It is for many and might still be for me. Monogamy is just as valid too. Poly just doesn't seem to want to cram in my head right now. As much as I try, this other reality keeps seeping out. I'm not about to stop it at this point, as I think it needs a voice and a chance, regardless of all I've accomplished. Nothing is as it seems and everything changes, right?
 
Thanks for PN's writing on being "in the dance." I'm pondering for a bit on that.

My first reaction is one of anger today. I am not wanting to be in a dance of poly. I have reached poly burn out. Fuck the dance. I want some simple little life of good friends, happy family and someone who I can pour my heart into. Ya. Backward for a poly forum. Reactionary perhaps.... maybe I will recoup and see it the poly way again but for now I seem to be unable. I seem to be moving toward working on my abandonment baggage etc and making a fool of myself for someone I would likely be better to say good bye to.

Interestingly-I didn't see that post as having anything to do with poly... Maybe because most of my adult life hasn't been poly? I don't know. But, it reminded me of my closest friendships and how our lives are intertwined even when we are distant....

Maybe re-read the post from PN without considering it as being romantic or poly in nature and consider it from that perspective?
 
All I ask is fidelity. (Can you believe this is RP talking? I can't sometimes.)

That would be a breaking detail for me for two reasons.
1) I tried, with all my heart in the promise, to live by that rule and failed. So I am loathe to try again.
2) I don't believe at all that anyone can be happy with JUST that. Frequently we say "I only ask..." but the truth is, that is bullshit. We only ask whatever one thing IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT. But, when push comes to shove, it's not REALLY the only one thing we want/need/expect.

I am confident enough of number 2 that I will say if Mono offered you fidelity, but he stopped being the man you know today, it wouldn't be enough.

I KNOW you mean it when you say it. But, there are other things you expect (and ANYONE would). A simple example, kindness and respect towards your son and your responsibility to him. You might reply that you *know* that Mono would never change in regards to LB. But that's kind of the point, yes? You were confident that he wouldn't change in respect to being mono to you either. But, he did change. (I'm not making a judgment, just saying.) Likewise, in addition to fidelity, there are other things you need/expect/require/ask, and many, even most, are probably PERFECTLY REASONABLE.

But don't delude yourself by allowing yourself to believe that it's only one thing you want. It's not.

You might want monogamy.
You might want fidelity.
But there are other things too and they are equally important.

Hugs
 
Agreed LR. Still processing and grateful to say stuff out loud. It sounds ludicrous writing some stuff down. But I am sure it will just help to get it all out.
 
There's something NYCindie doesn't seem to get in painting a glowing pic of your former poly life. I always thought your life seemed a bit frenetic, overly busy. Kid, full-time job, PN, Mono, Derby, NSBF Leo, then Ken and Brad and your metamours and their kids, your blood family, and parties and coffee shops and clubs and burlesque and gardening and organizing campouts and speaking at poly cons... oh my!

You've briefly mentioned 'wookin pa nub" in your 20s, giving your body away in a "bad" slut way.

In your 30s, into your 40s you kept running from your issues into this busy-busy-busyness.

Now, you say you're working on abandonment issues. Let's look at that! You seem like a wounded child, rootless, clueless. Why are you avoiding therapy? Come on, RP! Go see someone, every week. You've got a deep wound that Mono, or mono, can't fill. Posting random things here isn't enough.

Maybe I am completely insane.

Not completely, but... maybe a little? You need professional help. Blogging can only do so much.
 
I feel like I've walked into one of those televisual soap operas that everyone seems to enjoy so much... and I just cannot understand why anything is going on.

It feels like a lot of information is being lost from you to us, because everything is going around in circles. What information has been given, there have been fixes to the problems from all of us. But it seems like you're saying, "No, you don't understand, because look at how difficult it is," whilst giving us the same information as before.

:confused::(
 
I feel like I've walked into one of them televisual soap operas that everyone seems to enjoy so much... and I just cannot understand why anything is going on.

It feels more like a lot of information is being lost from you to us, because everything is going around in circles. What information has been given, there have been fixes to the problems from all of us. But it seems like you're saying "No, you don't understand, because look at how difficult it is," whilst giving us the same information as before.
Welcome to my head, somegeezer. There have been some ideas for fixing it, but everything takes time. I could stop writing, I guess, until I'm totally on board and loving it all. I could not share my process, thoughts and progression. This is my blog, however, and while I appreciate the feedback I write here as part of the process. I tend to recite the same thoughts over and over again until I reach a solid foundation to stand on and stop. Everyone processes differently. This is what it's like for me.
 
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I'm sitting in the woods at a campground having organized and come to a camp for LB's school. Its dark and warm and the campers are finally quiet. It occurs to me that I am doing this on my own. I usually have someone with me. Its just LB and me. I feel rather odd about it. Usually I would panic. I'm calm and grounded in the trees. Even loving and connecting with myself. This may just be the summer of loving me, and me only.

If I text someone they are instantly there. Boom. Response. It's an illusion of connection. They are half with me and mostly with others. It makes me angry and sad at the same time and I wonder about that. If I don't think about it then I believe they miss me, long to be here too, wish I were there, and think I'm their special someone who they love and is loved by me. I'm not. It's an illusion. They are with someone else and really it's just nice to get texts. I am just a person they want to keep around. I'm nothing more special than the next person, just one in a crowd of people they know. There is nothing I nor they can do about that.

I'm just carrying on and waiting for someone to fill my world, mourning what doesn't exist anymore for me.

It occurs to me that my NRE with Mono lasted four years. How's that for a record? No wonder I am struggling. He was my world. I fell into him. How odd to see him from this distance. He's just a man. A man I used to be so connected with and bonded with, I could read his mind. Now he's a fragment of that. He still haunts me, though. It's torturous being still here with him in our lives. Like a slow break-up that never ends. I walk around this campsite in indifference and alone. I guess that's better than the pain. I await joy again.

I listened to the chatter around the fire tonight. Couples were talking of how they met and their love and devotion to one another. I was resigned to having nothing to add to the conversation. I felt nothing but alone. Strangely, I didn't care. Poly adds no pride in who I am now. I thought of saying something of my life and the people in it, people whom I care for, who care for me. But it felt as if I were talking about friends, not loves.

I have heard enough mono people not get how love is expansive and can be spread to many loves. I get that right now. Focusing attention on one means something to them. I see no difference between friends and loves in my life tonight. I don't talk about friends, so why talk about poly?
 
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Och RP - your struggles make me sad for you. I very much hope that you can find your way to a resolution.

I have been reading your blog for a while now and I too wonder if it might help you to get some professional help for your issues around being abandoned. It seems that they cause you so much grief.

You have spoken sometimes about it being an impossible dream to have somebody be monogamous with you - to have a partner who loves you and nobody else. I wonder why? This isn't an impossible dream - lots of people have that and many of them for prolonged periods of time. Do you feel that it's impossible that anybody could feel that way for you?

It has seemed to me that in your case, maybe your decision to live the life you do is to avoid ever being alone. You surrounded yourself with partners but still wrote regularly about meeting new folks interested in poly for coffee dates and maintained a profile on OKC. You wrote once about being terribly upset because Mono chose to stay over with friends of yours rather than come home with you and how upset you were that even with 4 partners you still sometimes found yourself alone.

These seem like strong responses to being alone and you seem to have made very little progress with fixing them - maybe some outside, professional help would be a good idea?

If I don't think about it then I believe they miss me, long to be here too, wish I were there, and think I'm their special someone who they love and is loved by me. I'm not. It's an illusion. They are with someone else and really its just nice to get texts.

This - why would your love being with somebody who isn't you while you are away be a problem? Should they sit alone, pine and wait for you to come back? People can love you and you can be incredibly special to them without them being alone whenever you guys aren't together.

I see no difference between friends and loves in my life tonight. I don't talk about friends so why talk about poly.

And this. I agree with you. I very often see no significant difference between friends and loves. In fact, I don't even limit it to human beings. One of the most powerful connections in my life and strongest friendship was with a dog.

To me, this is a good thing. To you this seems to be a source of sadness.

Why?

Why not talk about friends? I talk about mine loads. I am friends with some amazing people who fill my life with interest, affection and love. They are fascinating, vibrant individuals and I talk about them.

I hope you are able to find some peace soon.

IP
 
"
I see no difference between friends and loves in my life tonight. I don't talk about friends so why talk about poly."

And this. I agree with you. I very often see no significant difference between friends and loves.

To me, this is a good thing. To you this seems to be a source of sadness.

Why?

Why not talk about friends? I talk about mine loads. I am friends with some amazing people who fill my life with interest, affection and love. They are fascinating, vibrant individuals and I talk about them.

IP

I wanted to say this but IP said it better than I would have.

I am sad for you that the love you used to feel for your friends (because I do think I saw this in your posts) no longer brings you happiness.

I can see that you're mourning the loss of your relationship with Mono as you knew it. And this is understandable - it was of immense value to you, it gave you great joy, and it has morphed into something that pleases you less. It seems natural to grieve over the loss.

And yet things will always change; we can't expect otherwise. (And if someone asked you to not change you might have felt trapped.) Sometimes reframing that way can help me, just as IP was reframing above. Of course you know already that things must change, but right now you don't really seem to accept it.

I think you might get something from the book I'm (re)reading these days, which addresses where the anxieties we feel may ultimately come from. I felt that it pulled together a lot of the issues that I've thought about and grappled with, and helped me see them in a larger picture. I'm rereading because it was a lot to absorb the first time through. It's by a therapist named Irving Yalom, and its called Existential Psychotherapy.
 
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