What if polyamory stops working?

The downside to counseling is hearing things that might hurt your feeling. And people start feeling they can share thoughts and feeling.

I think this is an excellent point. A good therapist will help you realize that your feelings are valid and acceptable. He previously may have been willing to put his feelings in a bottle. The counselling process could be taking those feelings out of the bottle.

I think it's good to take those feelings out of the bottle, and dangerous to criticize him for doing so, assuming you want him to continue to grow and become emotional and expressive.

In other words, you wanted him to learn how to Feel. That means good feelings and bad. You can't just say "I want you to express your love more, but don't express your hurt."

My husband is not very emotive, due to his upbringing. I've been encouraging him to express himself more. He's starting to. We're at an awkward point where he's starting to tell me when things are bothering him before the pot boils over, but he's still really self-conscious about doing it. I'm glad he's able to express himself, but that doesn't make it painless for me to hear about how I've hurt him. Sometimes I'll sit there for a minute and process what he's said, and he'll get really apprehensive. He'll start giving explanations about how I wanted him to express himself so he's expressing himself. Maybe I need to precede my processing with "Thank you for sharing. I'm going to think about what you said for a minute. I'm not sure how to respond yet, but I'm grateful that you put yourself out there."
 
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I think it's good to take those feelings out of the bottle, and dangerous to criticize him for doing so...

I very much agree with this, and BravoDelta and DingedHeart.

Here's a man who loved his wife enough to sacrifice his own comfort, to sacrifice what he expected and presumably was promised in marriage, out of concern for his wife's health.

Not surprisingly, given human nature, given what most people want out of marriage, given that most people want monogamy from their spouse...he's struggling.

And now he's being criticized for it. :(

I think most men never would have even tried.

I personally believe that having feelings for another person is fairly normal, but does not require us to act on them.

Best of luck to you. I'm sorry you're hurting.
 
Did you ever think that the way he was forced into it was for fear of losing her?

What makes you think he was forced into the arrangement they had? The OP has been nothing but communicative and considerate. They talked and talked and talked, and agreements were made so that everyone would be satisfied. He would voice more concerns, adjustments were made, he said he was okay with things as they moved forward. Then he'd freak out again after some perceived slight, and ask for more adjustments. And again, she accommodated him. And now he's saying he didn't really want any of it. It's not the OP's fault that he was dishonest when he very proactively told her what boundaries needed to be in place for him to be comfy with it, and she obliged him everything he asked for. He certainly wasn't forced, and I am sure if he had said NO to it straight from the get-go, she would have accepted that, albeit very sadly. It has been a huge challenge for both of them.
 
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I had to take a few days away from discussing this. I appreciate everyone's comments.

I cringe when I read implications that my husband has not been willing to make changes, and I cringe when I read implications that I have pushed him to accept my polyamory against his will. If anyone here were able to get to know us personally I think you would find two kind hearted and generous souls who are struggling to treat each other right. The poly-mono situation does not appear to have a simple fix, so it's not surprising that we have run up against challenges no matter how we've tried to resolve our differences.

What I have come to understand in these past few days is that my husband's biggest struggle in the one-night-a-month agreement has been the feeling he gets that he is providing a service (child care, running the household, caring for the pets, etc.) in order for me to go on a vacation to sleep with another man. The relationship itself is something he has mostly been able to tolerate for my sake, but his position of providing actual time and energy of his own in order to support it has been a thorn in his side. His past efforts to express this had not made sense to me, as it seemed like he was just complaining that spending time with our children was unpleasant for him, but now I understand what he is trying to convey. Tolerating my other relationship is one thing, but aiding it is another.

The trouble with taking away the overnight option is that we are back to the difficult situation we had in the past where C, who lives 5 hours away, can't make the trip just to take me out to lunch. He ends up trying to schedule time with me when he is on the way to or from other things. We had intended an overnight trip tomorrow, and I suggested that having had to cancel it, he would at least come to town for those two days and spend time with me during the day, but he has already reduced that to a 3 hour visit in the morning, since he couldn't justify giving up an evening event at home if we weren't going to be together in the evening anyway. I am back to feeling low on his priority list, trying to cram our time together into rushed visits, and not knowing when he might have time for me next.

Now my husband says maybe he's ok with the overnights if we aren't sexually intimate, which I suppose is theoretically possible. C says if he had to choose spooning over sex, he'd choose spooning anyway. Honestly the sexual heights he takes me to (even without PIV or oral sex) have always felt far too good to be true, so giving that up (for now anyway) is probably going to be ok. I'm wondering how to get sexually interested in my husband though. His desire for exclusive rights to my body flat out kills my libido. I'm polyamorous and celibate now -how's that for irony?
 
Sigh.

I don't know what else to add other than I'm sorry you continue to struggle. I don't think either of you is horrible people, but I don't understand why you both continue to try to make something go that just...won't. :(

His feeling annoyed that he has to watch children to free you up to see your BF -- well, that's reality. There are children. They need watching. Because you can only see BF on overnights once a month. Could DH organize a babysitter so he has that time off too? Or could you organize a babysitter? That's a side track thing to me.

Because I just think even with a separate babysitter he still would not feel good because he's just not poly or poly-friendly. He's mono. That doesn't make him a horrible person. Being mono is totally fine. Buy why does he stay in something that is not feeding him the way he needs to be fed?

Why do you?

Why continue in this manner? You both are suffering. It's so sad and tragic. :(

Galagirl
 
Why continue in this manner? You both are suffering. It's so sad and tragic. :(

Galagirl

I guess I don't really see any option that isn't going to be sad. Our lives are intertwined, after almost 15 years together. We support each other. We are a family, with our daughters. We have worked hard to remodel, landscape, and create a home that reflects our joint desires. There is so much that we would lose if we parted ways, the grief would be enormous. The impact on our daughters would be devastating. We really do love most things about the life we have created with each other.

I think the least painful path is to keep looking for the best compromise between his mono dreams and my poly ones. I was hoping we had found something that could work, but now it isn't working, and we have to try again.
 
I think you can make it work. I am glad that he agreed to go to counseling together with you. And I hope you didn't think I was saying he wasn't willing to make any changes in my previous posts - I know he compromised a great deal and tried, but there were problems he had with communicating, and so many misunderstandings. Going with you to counseling is a huge step for him, I think, because I get the sense that he would rather these issues between you all remain private and not have to be discussed even with a professional.

It just makes me sad whenever it has come to the point (and it's happened numerous times) where you concede and give up what you want to make him happy, but then are angry and lose interest in being intimate with him because of the sense you have that one of his main needs is to be possessive over you. I would resent feeling like a possession owned by another, too, no matter how much love there is.

Sending you hugs and positive energy.
 
I think the least painful path is to keep looking for the best compromise between his mono dreams and my poly ones. I was hoping we had found something that could work, but now it isn't working, and we have to try again.
Then I hope the counseling will help you guys find the happy medium compromise place so your can both start to feel a bit better.

hugs
GG
 
I think we have a new agreement to try out.

Before we had the 2-day-a-month relationship we had this awkward arrangement where C would try to fit in visits here on his way to and from other things. He is overly optimistic in the way he plans his time, so all too often what would start out as a plan to spend a few hours together would get squished down into an hour or sometimes nothing at all. If we did end up with time, we found ourselves frequently stumbling into something that upset my husband.

C was going to spend today with me since we had set aside this time for the overnight trip that got cancelled. Then he decided he should get home for a music rehearsal, since he travels so much he misses quite a few. So we were going to have the morning, but he was delayed getting himself out of town from where he spent last night (2 hours away) so we only ended up with a lunch date. Meanwhile my husband and I were negotiating whether he was allowed in our house (yes, but only parts), how my husband would work his schedule to avoid crossing paths, etc. All these old problems and issues. No good. Not for any of us.

Now my husband says he will be fine with me going on overnight trips, so long as there is no sexual intimacy. C and I have picked a date at the end of next week. I told my husband I need to be sure this is really our agreement -not his ideal situation, nor mine, but a compromise we are both agreeing to, and that I will not be accused of doing anything wrong if I stick to it. He says yes. I hope it works.

I find it a little ridiculous to think that I have a boyfriend who is not allowed to undress me, and we are not 15 years old but 41 and 57. However, we thought we could give each other foot rubs and write lines of poetry back and forth, and dance, and perhaps end up with a deeper bond than if our time spent together mostly entailed me saying, "Mmm, oooh, aaah!" (Come to think of it, my 15 year old boyfriend was one of the sweetest, with all the innocent romantic gestures.) Of course we both hold out hope that someday down the line we'll get more than this, but for now, this is better than nothing. (Come to think of it, my 15 year old boyfriend several years later provided some mighty hot sex, off and on over the years.)
 
Now my husband says he will be fine with me going on overnight trips, so long as there is no sexual intimacy. C and I have picked a date at the end of next week. I told my husband I need to be sure this is really our agreement -not his ideal situation, nor mine, but a compromise we are both agreeing to, and that I will not be accused of doing anything wrong if I stick to it. He says yes. I hope it works.

May I suggest you both putting the agreement in writing and signing it? Especially the bit about not accusing you of wrongdoing as long as you've stuck to the agreement. I understand there might be feelings of "We don't need this, we're grown ups" but looking at the history...you might.
 
Now my husband says he will be fine with me going on overnight trips, so long as there is no sexual intimacy.

Have you and your husband agreed on what counts as sexual intimacy and what doesn't? For some people that might be limited to PIV sex with everything else being up for grabs, for others it could be a foot rub or anything you'd feel odd about a babysitter doing with your child.
 
I guess I don't really see any option that isn't going to be sad. Our lives are intertwined, after almost 15 years together. We support each other. We are a family, with our daughters. We have worked hard to remodel, landscape, and create a home that reflects our joint desires. There is so much that we would lose if we parted ways, the grief would be enormous. The impact on our daughters would be devastating. We really do love most things about the life we have created with each other.

I think the least painful path is to keep looking for the best compromise between his mono dreams and my poly ones. I was hoping we had found something that could work, but now it isn't working, and we have to try again.


Do you realize most or many of your past descriptions of your relationship with your husband center on the longevity and friendship and material stuff. The house ...decor choices or similar taste in decorating ... investment in landscaping. Are you consciously or unconsciously phrasing it this way? Love is never high on the list or mentioned ....or at least in regards to him. ( Disclaimer ...I haven't gone back and read every thread and post ...going from memory and this thread) I do invite the fact checkers....not that I have to ;)

ARE YOU in love with him ?

Is he in love with you ?

If you didn't have the kids or the house what would each of you do ? I think you should both play out this hypothetical in therapy.
 
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Have you and your husband agreed on what counts as sexual intimacy and what doesn't? For some people that might be limited to PIV sex with everything else being up for grabs, for others it could be a foot rub or anything you'd feel odd about a babysitter doing with your child.

We worked out an agreement regarding my relationship with L (long time friend to whom I am romantically attracted) that allows hugs and kisses but not touch that is intended to arouse. So that is my husband's definition of "no physical intimacy". Our agreement for the past year has been that C and I could touch in any way except PIV or oral sex. Sometimes I think these restrictions just cause more creativity and excitement. If we'd been having sex the past year it might have become more routine and less exciting by now. Now we have to try to channel our attraction through even more challenging modes of expression, which is bound to bring us closer together, I think. We'll brush each other's hair, write erotic poetry, and dance.
 
Do you realize most or many of your past descriptions of your relationship with your husband center on the longevity and friendship and material stuff. The house ...decor choices or similar taste in decorating ... investment landscaping. Are you consciously or unconsciously phrasing it this way? Love is never high on the list or mentioned ....or at least in regards to him. ( Disclaimer ...I haven't gone back and read every thread and post ...going from memory and this thread) I do invite the fact checkers....not that I have to ;)

ARE YOU in love with him ?

Is he in love with you ?

If you didn't have the kids or the house what would each of you do ? I think you should both play out this hypothetical in therapy.

He and I share many of the same desires when it comes to home and family. I love our home and family. I love him. I am not always "in love" with him, but the feeling does come back from time to time. I don't really want to live alone, nor do I want to live with any other man. My husband is the man I want to share a home with. I guess some of it could be seen as material, but there is also an emotional significance when we harvest fruit from trees we planted together a dozen years ago, or cook in the kitchen we created out of shared ideas and inspiration when we remodeled it together.

Part of the appeal of polyamory, for me, is that when I can enjoy intimate connections with more than one person, no one has to satisfy all my emotional needs. I can love my husband so much more for who he is if I am not resenting the things about him that don't fulfill me. He does fulfill me in many ways -just not all the ways I seek.

I go social dancing. Everyone knows that if you only ever dance with one partner, your dancing will be very slow to improve. You may actually build in bad habits that make you difficult for others to dance with. You will probably get bored. If you dance with many different partners, you will be constantly learning new steps, perfecting your physical communication skills, expanding your repertoire, honing your own personal style, and of course, having a rich and interesting social experience. This is what I want in life.
 
I go social dancing. Everyone knows that if you only ever dance with one partner, your dancing will be very slow to improve. You may actually build in bad habits that make you difficult for others to dance with. You will probably get bored. If you dance with many different partners, you will be constantly learning new steps, perfecting your physical communication skills, expanding your repertoire, honing your own personal style, and of course, having a rich and interesting social experience. This is what I want in life.


This is a much better rationale/explanation of polyamory than the "many favorite foods" or "more than one child" analogies. The reason, I think, is because it describes a comprehensive and inclusive growth process instead of simply saying you love people or things "equally but differently". I never quite bought into the whole "equal but different" line.
 
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He and I share many of the same desires when it comes to home and family. I love our home and family. I love him. I am not always "in love" with him, but the feeling does come back from time to time. I don't really want to live alone, nor do I want to live with any other man. My husband is the man I want to share a home with. I guess some of it could be seen as material, but there is also an emotional significance when we harvest fruit from trees we planted together a dozen years ago, or cook in the kitchen we created out of shared ideas and inspiration when we remodeled it together.

Part of the appeal of polyamory, for me, is that when I can enjoy intimate connections with more than one person, no one has to satisfy all my emotional needs. I can love my husband so much more for who he is if I am not resenting the things about him that don't fulfill me. He does fulfill me in many ways -just not all the ways I seek.

I go social dancing. Everyone knows that if you only ever dance with one partner, your dancing will be very slow to improve. You may actually build in bad habits that make you difficult for others to dance with. You will probably get bored. If you dance with many different partners, you will be constantly learning new steps, perfecting your physical communication skills, expanding your repertoire, honing your own personal style, and of course, having a rich and interesting social experience. This is what I want in life.

You write beautifully of what you see in him, love him for and why you want to be with your husband. And about what you see polyamory as offering you the chance to learn and grow while appreciating your husband for who he is. It is clearer to me why you stay in this difficult relationship.

But I was struck by something in Dinged's question and your reply. Would your husband respond with something similar to the same question addressed to him? (Minus the poly bit obviously.) You've wrote elsewhere in this thread that having a normal, respectable, mainstream wife and mother at his side is important to him, is what he wants. It's obvious to me that you will never, ever be that normal wife for him. Are you what he wants out of life? You can fit in what you want around him. You are trying very, very hard to do this. Can he do the same? Accept his not normal wife for who she is? I am skeptical that either of you can get what you want out of life - especialy when what you want lies in almost completely opposite directions - without one or both of you completely giving up your self, your souls in the process.

Also, your situation reminds me of my own in one respect. It seems to me that you associate your husband with home. I mean the physical experience of living together but also the emotional aspects of creating a home with someone else. Your husband is your home in a literal and emotional sense. I too thought of my ex-wife as my home. Wherever she was, that was my home. I learned that this sense of home is not enough to sustain a relationship. I did not want to break up because I associated home and her so strongly that I could not separate them in my head and heart. It has been my experience that this sense of home is a crutch to ward off fears such as the fear of being alone. It substitutes for love, for passion, for depth.

Perhaps for you, it is enough to sustain the relationship. But I have discovered that I carry my own 'at home' within. It's been hard and I have not enjoyed it. But I feel that any future committed relationships will be deeper and stronger because I no longer invest that in others.
 
AnotherConfused, thanks for sharing this experience...

NYcindie- Thanks for this-
There has to be a true partnership where each person gives of themselves and creates a space for the other to shine fully with the light of who they are, and to be the best they can be, as well as living as fully as they can and striving for their own full potential. It's just not enough to love someone if a working partnership isn't there. Yes, keep working on the issues in therapy, but consider that the alternative, as scary and terrible as it may be to even think of splitting up, could be the key to your freedom and happiness. For both of you.
 
Little update...

Monogamy didn't work either.

C and I tried to turn our relationship into a "friendship" in which we are still in love. We found ourselves back struggling with how to get any time together that wasn't impossibly squeezed between other things (since C lives 5 hours away). My husband recognized the difficulty we had with this before and consented to letting us take overnight trips once a month again, providing there was no physical intimacy. We planned a ski trip, but I injured my foot a few days ahead, so what we had was two days cooped up in a beautiful ski lodge. C splurged for my Christmas present, and got us a room with a fireplace. You can guess how this ends.

It wasn't that I was too horny to keep my promise to my husband, but rather that the promise itself felt like such a horrible idea. I felt like my husband was this negative presence in my head, interfering with a relationship that has already been established and is very meaningful to me, and has really nothing to do with my husband. We had no problem sticking to the boundaries that we have been operating under for all these months (no oral or PIV sex) but removing all the rest of the physical ways in which we are used to expressing our affection for each other felt way wrong.

I told my husband, of course, once I was home. I had no idea what to expect. We actually ended up having several good days in a row together where we really focused on being kind and loving to each other, followed by a counseling session that stirred up all sorts of nastiness. That took a few days to process, and now we are back to trying to increase the love between us.

As for polyamory, my husband is going to do his best to tolerate it, and he wants me to do my best to mitigate his suffering, both by making the overnights and visits as infrequent as I can bear, and by making sure he isn't reminded of them in between. (C gave me a recipe book for Christmas, and my husband asked me to keep it out of sight.)

So we've tried monogamy, and I can't do it. My husband is willing to keep trying (my) polyamory for as long as he can bear it. If it gets to a point where he'd rather not be married to me, then I guess that's where we end up, but I will try to keep it low key so he doesn't reach that.

Another big development is that C is condo shopping in my town. He wouldn't move here, but it would give him a chance to spend more time here, which could mean getting together during the work/school day or on my dance nights out, and that could make longer stretches between overnight trips easier to bear. I'm hesitating to tell my husband because I think he may suspect C is trying to set up house with me, but if it becomes a sure thing I will not want to keep it a secret. It does feel like it adds a couple hundred thousand dollars of seriousness to our relationship, but C insists it's something he was considering even before we met.

I'm feeling hopeful that we might be finding the balancing point. We're definitely continuing to discover the tipping points!
 
Watching for tipping points is a really good idea but what about flash points?

Are you mentally prepared for that.


Whats the plan for News Years Eve this year? Is that a sensitive topic for your husband or is that minor crap in comparison to recent events.
 
I've been reading this thread with interest and relating so much, since I experienced much of the same.

One thing you said, how your libido died for your husband when he wouldn't accept your polyamorous nature... yep. yep, yep. My ex didnt even accept I was bi, or outgoing, and would even get insanely jealous for the silliest things... if I talked "too long" to a guy at a party, if I danced with someone, even if I got a celebrity crush.

But however, like you, we had the large house with our renovations and fruit trees and gardens, the kids, even a huge teepee in the side yard for his spiritual group meetings. I gave it all up because I literally felt like the bird in the gilded cage. And I didn't regret it! We tried. We did couples therapy many times over our 30 years together, and individual as well. We even tried poly together, but it all came out wrong. Breaking up was the best thing for me. Not for him. He lost all the domestic comforts I bring. And the awesome sex. I brought my domestic skills and sexual skills to my own small cute apartment and never looked back! He has a gf too, but did struggle, as he told me, after our split. But, hell, he was depressed before! And jealous as well. At least my poly relationships are not in his face now.
 
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