Understanding Codependence and Independence

Silas

New member
Lately, I have been pondering over some questions that are very big in my life. I would love to hear the thoughts of more experienced poly-folk. Please feel free to answer any or all. I am very grateful for any help you can offer.

1. How likely do you think it is for someone with an established pattern of putting their partner's needs before their own to learn independence, confidence, self-knowledge and healthy boundaries from within a primary-type relationship or with someone they have experienced codependency with? Does one need to abstain from relationships altogether?

2. What would you advise for breaking out of an unhealthy people-pleasing tendency and into a more self-honoring focus?

3. Can you justify a choice that will cause someone you love pain even when you are filled with self-doubt?

4. When do your needs merit compromise and when do you simply do what you have to do and hope your partner will support you?

5. How do you learn to trust yourself?
 
1. How likely do you think it is for someone with an established pattern of putting their partner's needs before their own to learn independence, confidence, self-knowledge and healthy boundaries from within a primary-type relationship or with someone they have experienced codependency with? Does one need to abstain from relationships altogether?

How likely this is depends on you: the choices you make, the thoughts you choose, the role models you seek out, the influence of others that you choose to allow in. How many other people are accomplishing this is irrelevant. If this is important for you, you can get to a place where this becomes your new normal.

You can gather advice from others who have experience changing their perspective, but only you can know which people/relationships are supporting your efforts and which are detracting from your efforts. I'll say for myself that I experience times when I need to quiet down and not be so outward focussed in order to better "hear" myself think and feel and move forward. Other times I find that relationships (assuming you mean romantic type?) move me along in a big way. Only you can know who and what needs weeding at the time. Personally, I have transformed my primary relationship in some very big ways, but not everyone wants to do this. All relationships start with you and eminate outward. Relationships are living, breathing, developing things - not ever set in stone, although we often think of them that way. Relationships are a constant, ongoing creation of two people.
 
Last edited:
Where is healthy interdependence? :confused:

1. How likely do you think it is for someone with an established pattern of putting their partner's needs before their own to learn independence, confidence, self-knowledge and healthy boundaries from within a primary-type relationship or with someone they have experienced codependency with?

I think it is more about their willingness to own and work on their stuff than whether or not they are single.

Does one need to abstain from relationships altogether?

I don't think so. But the person could get help with the codependence stuff. Counselor, CODA, something else. Whatever approach or combo suits their case best.

2. What would you advise for breaking out of an unhealthy people-pleasing tendency and into a more self-honoring focus?

Become aware of people pleasing behavior at the expense of self. Learn to meet own needs first, then gift whatever energy after that toward helping people so they don't run dry.

selfish --- self full -- selfless

is a spectrum to me. In that?

  • selfish = all about meeting my needs. Forget other people.
  • self full = meet my needs first. Then gift help to others.
  • selfless = all about other people needs. Forget my own.

Working on self respecting behavior. Literally asking self "I am thinking about doing X. Is that behavior respectful of me?"

Because I think if a person runs around doing less than self-respecting behavior? It's going to be really hard to maintain good self esteem. It's hard to feel proud or good about one's behavior and hold it in high esteem if the habit is to throw oneself under the bus. What for?

3. Can you justify a choice that will cause someone you love pain even when you are filled with self-doubt?

Like what? Could you be willing to give an example? I find this really vague.

That is not self focus. That is other people focus -- worrying about how they feel, if they can handle it, etc.

I trust that other people can handle it, and if they cannot they will speak up and ask for help. I don't have to "pre-help" them or arrange the world nicely for them so they will do same in turn for me so I can finally be safe.

I have a codependent friend. This inside out/backward way of relating to the world and to herself wears her out. Wears me out watching her. I have to take breaks sometimes.

4. When do your needs merit compromise and when do you simply do what you have to do and hope your partner will support you?

Not specific. Could you be willing to clarify?

In general? I think needs usually don't merit compromise for me. That is why it is a NEED. I need to eat. I need to feel safe. I need rest. I'm not compromising on that.

I can compromise on WANTS. Like if I need to eat before my blood gets wonky? I need to EAT. Period. I might want to eat at X location, but if others in my party want to eat at Y? Then stop at a gas station so I can get a banana to tide me over on the drive. I am willing to compromise on the WANT part of it. But not the NEED part of it.

My partner and I operate from self-full. We are each responsible for meeting our own needs, and after that as willing and able help each other out. If we cannot work out a plan together, then it is every person for themselves until later.

5. How do you learn to trust yourself?

I am comfortable saying "No, not at this time. Sorry" when people ask me things I am not up for. I take care of me and do not throw me under the bus, run myself ragged or spread myself too thin. I don't hang around toxic people that try to suck me dry. I make good choices, and when I screw up? I learn from it.

I avoid self abusive talk in my head -- "This situation stinks" evaluates a situation. It is not "I just suck! I always suck!" like me taking a bad situation personally. I am aware of common twisted thinking things and avoid those too.

I don't know if any of that helps.

GL!

Galagirl
 
Okay, so the problem is this: I do not trust myself not to be codependent with the person I have been with because I was for a year and pretended I wasn't. I am just realizing this now and it is scary. It feels like I may just delude myself again. That my pattern is too strong and the only way to develop a healthy relationship with my self is to remove myself from someone who sees my new self-focus and boundaries as a threat to our relationship.

And yes, I have been vague. I wrote an entire post relating my situation but didn't publish it because I ffelt nervous that it was too long and no one would want to read it. So I decided to try the question thing instead. So it didn't feel like I was asking so much. But of course, context is important too. I still have the story. I will try to provide a balance?

GG, it seems like I need to understand independence before I can understand interdependence. Do you disagree?

How do I identify a need from a want? I feel a deep desire for more autonomy, freedom and personal experiences. I have for over a year and failed to do anything about it because of said codependency. We are at a crossroads. My current relationship may end if I decide this is something I need in its purest form. My partner, who I love very much, would also go through great pain. So, how do I decide if this is negotiable for me? The sad part is, I am not very good at knowing and trusting what I need.
 
Could click the need list above. That could be a helpful discernment tool for you.

Okay, so the problem is this: I do not trust myself not to be codependent with the person I have been with because I was for a year and pretended I wasn't. I am just realizing this now and it is scary. It feels like I may just delude myself again. That my pattern is too strong and the only way to develop a healthy relationship with my self is to remove myself from someone who sees my new self-focus and boundaries as a threat to our relationship.

That to me is toxic. I cannot be with a person who does not respect me or my boundaries and views them as a threat, as a challenge to break down, or a personal affront somehow that I just do not want to be enmeshed...subsuming myself to the relationship.

I want to feel safe in my relationships, not always on guard. Or being bullied or hurt and giving in just to make the hurt stop. Or suffocated in the relationship.

For me that is not negotiable. I need to keep me safe. If the other person is "hurt" because I object to how they behave toward me to the point where I need to put distance in there in order for me to be healthy? Too bad. I need to do what is right for me to be healthy first. Healthy people get that. They would not ask me to become unhealthy for them.

Unhealthy people do not get that. They glom on and suck you dry.

Besides, if they do not like that response from me or others in their life? They could learn to change their way of relating to people so people stop distancing themselves from the toxic relating.

Sometimes that "hurt" stuff is not real. It is designed to keep you around still caretaking them. Cycle of abuse stuff. Promises to change, a better tomorrow... But tomorrow never comes because it turns into the same thing all over again.

If it were me? I would walk away. Because the pain of a break up and healing has an end point. It is not fun, but I finish the process ok, healthier. That is preferable to me than to staying and being chronically hurt with no end in sight. Choosing that leaves me unhealthy, eroding.

If they are hurting post break up, they can seek counseling or whatever it is they need to get back on a healthier track. I am not stopping them. It is their job, not mine. Besides, me sticking around enabling them while throwing me under the bus is not encouraging them to get their own stuff in order or helping me get healthy. It just supports them in a toxic way of relating at my expense.

I am sorry you deal in this. :(

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
GalaGirl,

Your response gives me great pause. And courage. I know that I must disentangle from this relationship. For a while, I was open to ideas about how to seek the space and freedom I've been needing from within the relationship but that just seems more and more unlikely to work. I want to emphasize that when I say codependency I am referring mostly to my own behavior in putting her needs before mine. She isn't a tyrant and it is hard to call her part of it abuse. She is fragile and doesn't know herself or what she wants very well. All the same, perhaps I don't even fully see the way my behavior has been perpetuated. I have spoken up for my needs when I've known them. I just let them get subsumed and forever placed in the realm of "future" to protect her.

The truth is, I am moving away from the place in which she lives to seek these needs. The question before us is if she will come with. A big part of me feels so trapped thinking about that happening. I just don't know if she can let go and that I will keep putting off my needs to keep her safe. This feels like my chance to truly live for myself and explore so many of the things that are a part of me and that codependent relationships have always kept me from. I would love to keep her in my life in a healthy way while I do this. She tells me that she wants to support me but she is so afraid and without plans of her own it feels like she would do anything to hold onto the relationship. She is in a very insecure place and facing a lot of fears and unknowns for the first time. I deeply wish to be compassionate toward her situation.

I wrote something the other day that felt instantly significant to me: "If I knew she would not suffer, my choice would be simple."

GalaGirl, your perspective is invaluable. Often, you say what I wish I had the strength to say. Thank you for caring.

~Silas
 
Glad it helps some. Again I am sorry you deal in this.

I mean this kindly ok? :eek:

I want to emphasize that when I say codependency I am referring mostly to my own behavior in putting her needs before mine. She isn't a tyrant and it is hard to call her part of it abuse. She is fragile and doesn't know herself or what she wants very well. All the same, perhaps I don't even fully see the way my behavior has been perpetuated. I have spoken up for my needs when I've known them. I just let them get subsumed and forever placed in the realm of "future" to protect her.
Protect her from what?

That sounds like "tyranny of the weak." I'm not making fun of her, and I hope she chooses to get better and work on this.

But IME, that way of relating leads to problems -- not taking personal responsibility for themselves and wanting other people to "carry" them. For the person behaving this way, and anyone they related closely with.

She tells me that she wants to support me but she is so afraid and without plans of her own it feels like she would do anything to hold onto the relationship.

That could be two sentences.

She tells me that she wants to support me.

Great. She could do what she wants -- behave in ways that support you then.

She is so afraid and without plans of her own it feels like she would do anything to hold onto the relationship.

Simple solution -- could make some plans. What is stopping her? Not wanting to take personal responsibility?

She is in a very insecure place and facing a lot of fears and unknowns for the first time. I deeply wish to be compassionate toward her situation.

I get that it can be scary. But if she has always behaved in a way where people in her life are obliged to "carry her" - well no wonder she's having a hard time standing on her own two feet.

The answer is not to glom on to you. The answer is to start taking baby steps on her own and deliberately grow her confidence.

Confidence is grown by doing. Like a muscle to exercise and strengthen. It doesn't arrive from the sky one day. People all have "the confidence muscle." Whether they exercise it or not so it becomes strong? That's another thing.

I wrote something the other day that felt instantly significant to me: "If I knew she would not suffer, my choice would be simple."

Why is this suffering something to be avoided? It might be hard but this isn't life threatening. It's a good suffering. This is a call to growth.

And growth happens on the edges. With one foot in the comfortable zone, and one foot in the uncomfortable. This is how we grow and expand. By taking small risks and finding out it was ok in the end. And now we can cover more ground than we could before. We have become more able from the stretch.

And yes, growing pains can be a drag. But with it comes pride in having done something worthwhile, confidence the next time we are called to grow, less fear in doing that growth, etc.

How does not giving you opportunity to grow help you become healthier? How does not giving her opportunity for growth help her? :confused:

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Hi Silas, and welcome back!

If you do want to post your story, I'm sure we would be very happy to read through it. If not, let's go with what you've shared so far.

I'm curious - have you been with the same girl you met on the farm, as mentioned in your previous posts? Have you been monogamous during this time and now want to leave Michigan to seek new opportunities for yourself and your girlfriend is struggling with this?

1. How likely do you think it is for someone with an established pattern of putting their partner's needs before their own to learn independence, confidence, self-knowledge and healthy boundaries from within a primary-type relationship or with someone they have experienced codependency with? Does one need to abstain from relationships altogether?
I don't actually believe that abstaining is necessary, though I do see some of the merits in the "find yourself alone" approach. The reason I don't think it is necessary is that the problem relates to how you interact *within* your relationships. It's easy to be independent when you're single. It can be tempting to hope that new relationships won't repeat the same patterns, but in reality the likelihood is that we all carry whatever baggage we still have into the new relationship. Even if you meet someone stronger and healthier than your current girlfriend, you're still going to be codependent if you don't work on that right now.

It's possible to create a healthier environment with your current girlfriend, but she has to want this too. You can, however, start making the changes now. But there's a way to approach this. If you've started to whack boundaries up all of a sudden without communicating why you're doing it, this change is likely to have freaked your gf out. However, if you told her "I've realised I'm being codependent, and I'd like your support in becoming healthier", and then started making changes, you did all you could do. If you do think it's time to move on, do it because the relationship has reached its end point, not because you are placing your hopes on a new relationship that will fix things. :)

2. What would you advise for breaking out of an unhealthy people-pleasing tendency and into a more self-honoring focus?
Therapy and/or lots of reading. Melody Beattie is a leading author on codependency, if you're interested in looking her up. There's also a great book called 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'. I think the information there will be useful even if your girlfriend doesn't have BPD. As GG says, there is a difference between selfless, self full, and selfish.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being generous, easygoing, kind, and giving. Selflessness can be a wonderful quality. It doesn't have to mean codependency. It depends on the situation and how often you give.

In terms of codependency, one of the ways to move past it is to understand the detriment it brings to you and those you love. When we cave to keep someone momentarily happy, we're robbing them of the opportunity to grow and become stronger. We essentially won't LET them become stronger. Also, being codependent allows US to avoid dealing with our own demons. It may be that we want to be in control. We may want to feel like the stronger, more giving, more generous, etc. partner. We may have a fear of conflict. We may fear rejection or abandonment, and feel that we have to be endlessly giving to feel loved. It might be useful to reflect on what you are getting out of this cycle, because recognising it could surprise you.

3. Can you justify a choice that will cause someone you love pain even when you are filled with self-doubt?
Do you mean that you are doubting whether it's "ok" to want something that you want (being poly?), and you don't know whether it's the right thing to do to push for this thing? You have to listen to your gut in terms of what you want. If you don't know what you want, that's your current status. You can communicate this to your girlfriend: "I really don't know what I want. I need to explore this so that I can figure out what really works for me."

4. When do your needs merit compromise and when do you simply do what you have to do and hope your partner will support you?
I think that mutual support is what partnerships are about. Simply put, if you're in the relationship, you're committed to supporting whatever joint path you've agreed to travel on. You do it in a way that suits both partners. If you can't support it, the partnership will dissolve.

I'm pretty much always happy to compromise in a relationship. Compromise does not mean giving something up entirely. I asked my girlfriend for her views on this, because she opened up her previously-monogamous marriage after 10+ years of being together. For her, going slow wasn't a compromise - it was a necessity if they wanted to remain together, which they did.

However, if your need to be free far overrides your desire to be in your current relationship, it's unlikely that you will want to delay your freedom. The consequence of this is that asserting that freedom straight away is likely to cause your relationship to take hits.

5. How do you learn to trust yourself?
One of my friends once gave me wonderful advice on this. She told me that when I think "I'm trying to feel this way" "I should feel this way" "I want to feel this way", it's a flag that I'm not ACTUALLY feeling that way. Your real feelings will not match up with your ideal feelings. You'll recognise a sense of discomfort, even if it's deeply buried.

How do I identify a need from a want?
Perhaps instead of thinking about needs vs. wants, you can ask yourself this question: "Would I be happy in my current situation for the rest of my life?" If not, what would you need in your life to be happy with that situation for the rest of your time on Earth? That will give you an idea of what you want and need.
 
Thanks for the welcome, sparklepop! And your valuable perspective.

I am still processing a lot of what people have said here as well as my own feelings on the subject. Trying to see what resonates and what's useful. I find that it's most of it. It is a great support. I will take all I can get right now. :)

I wanted to say that I am somewhat limited on how much I can respond at the moment because I am trying to do all of this from my iPhone. Because of a collection of circumstances I don't have access to a computer right now. It is just fiddly and slow. But at least I have this option!

I will respond more in the next few days but in the meantime, since people seem open to it, I will post the backstory as it is something I had already written. Some of it will repeat things I have said here already but I don't have the time to edit it. So here it is. And yes, sparklepop: same farm, same girl, same poly-yearning me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am having something of a personal crisis. I have spent the last year and a half living in a proverbial fishbowl. Working and, during the last season, living communally on a small vegetable farm in rural Northern Michigan. I have realized now this is the opposite of what I want. I am returning to live in Minneapolis in January. I crave more opportunities, more people, more perspectives. Having felt utterly trapped by my circumstances the last year, I desire personal freedom and new experiences more than ever.

With this move, a great number of things are changing at once. I am challenged with deciding just how much they need to change. Namely, the relationship I have been in. In my post of a year ago I expressed my concern with staying another season in a place and under living conditions where exploring poly among other things would be hard. After some encouragement from the forum, I felt some hope about making it work and decided to stay with my partner and stay at the farm another season. Before I finalized this decision I discussed at length with her what we both needed to change to make this a healthy season. I was going to work one day a week less so that I could have time to direct a play over the summer with the farm kids as well as play more music. She also wanted to work less to make more time for herself and her crafts. As difficult as it seemed, I also made it clear I needed to actively find ways to date other people. She was open to this but wanted some time for us to re-establish our relationship in our new environment together. Because of convenience and because it would give us more free time, we also consented to live together at the farm. I agreed to wait two months before seeking new partners. This felt like a fair compromise. We committed to this and to each other for the season. We decided we would do the best we could and when it was over see how we feel. I looked forward to the new season with optimism and excitement.

Well, as you may be guessing, none of this panned out. The farm completely took over our lives again and worse yet, when the day was over we were still there. We worked way more than we wanted. The play never happened. And living communally with our co-workers proved to be a fucking nightmare. I lost a dear friend of many years because of it. I spent much of the summer comforting my suffering partner, who was having anxiety attacks, and just trying to keep myself sane. We managed to still have some good times but they all had the unsettling flavor of escape. Feeling already pushed to my limits and with my partner feeling the way she was, I never sought new partners. Feeling totally trapped, I became stoic and felt keenly the desires and passions in my life I felt totally unable to explore. This led me early to plans to return to Minneapolis one the season was finished.

So here I am. It's over. I'm done with farming and the social limitations of a small town. I am grateful to have learned quite a lot though. Mostly about myself. Thus, I do not regret going back but it was, without a doubt, the worse summer of my life. Within a couple weeks I will be back in the city filled with resolve for the next chapter of my life. I would be be moving on with ease, but for my partner.

Reading over my post of a year ago, I see that much of what I desire and much of what I struggle with I realized even then. However, they are all the more troubling now because over the last year I have done nothing to truly advance my circumstances to match the life I want to be living.

Particularly throughout the last year, but really much longer, I have been aware of a feeling. A knowing. A deep desire to be totally independent, autonomous, self-focused and free to respond to opportunities and experiences however I want. This includes romantic and sexual opportunities as well. When I read about solo-poly, I feel very understood. I felt this desire to an almost intoxicating level when my partner and I went to two music festivals this summer. Being in those places full of people and possibilities made me positively ache to be there alone. My partner could feel it. I didn't know what to say. Now that I am changing my circumstances completely, that path calls to me loud and clear. "This is your chance!" it says. To live for myself. To push myself past my fears and realize my dreams.

Now we come to my issues. I have expressed all of this in plain terms to my partner. I seem to know what I want and she still does not know what she wants. She wants to try whatever she must to keep the relationship. Furthermore, she is feeling the desire to leave her hometown and the farm for the first time. A year ago, I could see us moving to Minneapolis together and exploring poly together. Now, I don't know that I have that to give anymore. The other night, I told her that what I needed was to be committed to myself. To explore my self and poly and to not have my actions so intensely affect someone else. To be solo-poly. Dating, but not looking for anything resembling a primary relationship. To, for now, keep that kind of energy for myself and the things I want to do in my life.

She does not want to hear this. She tells me that she is the only one trying to save the relationship. That what I want is drastic and too many changes at once. Sometimes though, it feels like a bid for my soul. But then she questions me and I feel all my footing, all of my confidence and resolution about what I want totally disappear. I am left lost and confused and with no idea how to trust myself anymore or how to make a decision. This all started pointing me toward codependency and a lack of good boundaries. Which then led to a big realization: I am afraid that my reasons for staying at the farm and for not seeking new partners were not my own, as I thought. That they were really because I didn't want to hurt her. I deluded myself. I felt a dissonance all year with my choice. I blamed other excuses but I think I may have been putting her needs before my own all along. And now, I am terrified that if I don't break away from this pattern now, I will be unable to change my behavior in relationships which keeps me from living the life I want. I am afraid if I don't take this chance now, I never will. I need some time to develop my self and learn who I am and what I want. I need to have experiences to do this. Knowing my weakness for codependency, I don't know that I can do this from within such an attached relationship. Which is why time alone and eventually solo-poly feel like my path.
 
This is a sticky situation. You know what you want and you are partnered with someone who isn't as clear as to what she wants. You feel that you have both perhaps been focusing too much on staying together and not as much on pursuing your individual lives. You feel you've maybe stayed too long in a situation you're unhappy with in order to keep your partner feeling safe.

My thinking on this is: good for you for realizing that you and your partner may have some work to do!

I feel that poly and all relationships are meant to help us grow. So you're on track. You're realizing that you haven't been looking out for yourself as much as is healthy. You're doing the hard work of differentiating between yourself and your partner. You're talking with your partner about these issues, and feeling totally normal doubt and confusion when she expresses her own (somewhat different) experiences and wishes.

I wonder if some of the discomfort you're feeling has to do with worrying about "doing it wrong", but my thinking is that there isn't really any way to "do it wrong" (maybe unless you were being a jerk to your partner). If you go to Minneapolis together and try to make it work, that's a valid decision. if you choose to leave the relationship (or adjust it) because you want more freedom, that's a valid decision. Will those decisions lead to eternal happiness? Probably not, but that's not really the goal of life.

And, as someone here pointed out, protecting your partner from suffering isn't doing her any favors. Your codependency with her has kept her comfortable but hasn't challenged her.

It sounds to me like you're doing good work, facing these very real and significant issues. No matter what happens, you and your partner have the opportunity to really grow in this situation. It might be painful, but in the long run, pain teaches more profound lessons than comfort does.

I'd encourage you to pursue your own happiness and slowly disengage from the codependent dynamic you have with your partner. No matter where you end up living or what ends up happening with your relationship, that process itself is going to teach you both a lot about yourselves.

Good luck!
 
Back
Top