Coming out troubles

Cuppycake

New member
I'm looking for advice and wondering if anyone here is or had been in a similar situation. First a little background. Bravo and I are legally married. He has been in a sort of on and off relationship with Bean for about two years. She and I have just recently been exploring a GF/GF relationship over the last couple of months. Bean has been expressing frustration and worry over our inability to be out to many people about our relationships with her. She and Bravo have kept their relationship a secret for almost the entire time, I didn't even know about it until last fall. They were surprised at my openness to the idea of poly and while it was initially a vee with Bravo as the hinge, Bean and I have formed our own relationship.

Here's the problem: Bravo and Bean are both in the military, and Bravo's job requires him to maintain a security clearance. At this time we don't see any way to be totally out in the open without risking careers, military benefits, and article 15s. While the idea of being hidden isn't necessarily something any of us like, it seems to really be bothering Bean especially. She doesn't want to be looking over her shoulder constantly, whether she is with me or Bravo. I just don't know how to reassure her that she is important to us. I think she fears that Bravo and I will ultimately "backslide" into a monogamous marriage. She also seems to be having a hard time with the simple fact that Bravo and I are married at all, that the only way she can get what she needs (openness, being out to everyone, no need to hide any part of her relationships with either of us) is for none of us to be married and therefore not need to worry about the military's adultery rules. I'm not willing to divorce Bravo for that added bit of security, and I don't believe that is something he'd consider as a viable option either.

How do we express to her that our unwillingness to come out at this time has nothing to do with her and everything to do with work. Has anyone successfully come out to family and friends without fear that their employer might find out? Short of leaving the military or finding a new job, are there any avenues we should explore to help protect ourselves legally and financially?
 
Sounds to me like you are at limit reached with this for now. You guys do not want a divorce, nor change in jobs.

If they began with a less than honest start because it was hidden from you, if she fears him taking up with someone else in same way and keeping it from her/you....that is not something you help with. That is between them and the trust between them.

If she wants to date openly and part of the price of admission to dating you guys is not being out...she could break up and move on if the greater want is to be out. Or you could break up with her to free her to do it. So could he.

You can reassure, but she is the one who chooses to BE reassured on her end.

I am sorry you guys struggle right now. :(

Galagirl
 
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There may not be any good answer, really, that involves you all staying together. While I absolutely get the job security, etc., it means that a key need for Bean is going to go permanently unmet, which is a recipe for resentment (not to mention the shit-storm when someone finds out, and there's a high liklihood they will because life works like that).

Having been the "third," being the "dirty little secret," (though never in an affair sense, always in a poly relationship) even if no one wants it that way, can be incredibly demoralizing, destabalizing, and difficult, esp. if the original couple has all the security, etc. of a marriage (there is a power dynamic there that is very difficult to overcome, if not impossible). It's one of the reasons so many "unicorns" start refusing to date married coupes--it's just too demoralizing to be kept a secret, looked at as "the other woman," having no hope of the future security of things the original couple will have (retirement savings, death benefits, etc), and the always-looming possibility of being cast off when the married couple decided to have kids/move/whatever (which happens more times than not, unfortunately). No social functions, no family functions, and far less overall support (especially since she can't tell anyone at all). I am not saying you would do any of this, just that the fears and insecurities the situation brings are totally reasonable and justified in consideration by Bean. It can make the "third" feel like just a bauble, and no amount of words will take away what actions say pretty clearly. The reasons--job, etc.--doesn't actually matter that much, because it doesn't change the situation for the third (and can actually highlight that the "real" life of the original couple doesn't include the feelings of the "third," since they are not willing to make changes to the situation).

Since you and hubby aren't willing to divorce to put everyone on more equal footing and remove the worries with the military, about all you can really do is hope Bean will come to be okay with being a secret. Honestly, this probably isn't great for her emotionally in the long-run unless she comes to it on her own, naturally (which sounds unlikely). One solution may be to open your relationship, if your triad/vee is closed, and allowing her to find a primary of her own if she wants it.

Given the military issue, it's a very complicated relationship, esp. if there's a chance of being moved (you'd get to go with, she'd more than likely be totally screwed for chances of getting the same transfer, since they aren't married).

A lot of talking is in order. Also, taking a step back to see things from her perspective. You and Bravo aren't willing to consider divorcing for her security. While it's your choice, having been on that end of the stick, I can tell you that things like that are part of the issue. It makes it very clear her security is less important that yours and Bravos (couple privilege). If the relationship is pretty new, this makes sense. But, if it's off the table no matter how long or serious the relationships are (and if you expect the triad/vee to stay closed), it's a couple privileged that many people would find (totally reasonably) untenable in a closed situation. I don't know anyone who would be alright with being told, long-term, that their security is simply less important. If you were all together for a longer time, would this become more of an option? If not, what, exactly, is in it for her long-term (this isn't snarky, it's an honest question to consider if you want her to stay)?
 
I'm looking for advice and wondering if anyone here is or had been in a similar situation. First a little background. Bravo and I are legally married. He has been in a sort of on and off relationship with Bean for about two years. She and I have just recently been exploring a GF/GF relationship over the last couple of months. Bean has been expressing frustration and worry over our inability to be out to many people about our relationships with her. She and Bravo have kept their relationship a secret for almost the entire time, I didn't even know about it until last fall. They were surprised at my openness to the idea of poly and while it was initially a vee with Bravo as the hinge, Bean and I have formed our own relationship.

Here's the problem: Bravo and Bean are both in the military, and Bravo's job requires him to maintain a security clearance. At this time we don't see any way to be totally out in the open without risking careers, military benefits, and article 15s. While the idea of being hidden isn't necessarily something any of us like, it seems to really be bothering Bean especially. She doesn't want to be looking over her shoulder constantly, whether she is with me or Bravo. I just don't know how to reassure her that she is important to us. I think she fears that Bravo and I will ultimately "backslide" into a monogamous marriage. She also seems to be having a hard time with the simple fact that Bravo and I are married at all, that the only way she can get what she needs (openness, being out to everyone, no need to hide any part of her relationships with either of us) is for none of us to be married and therefore not need to worry about the military's adultery rules. I'm not willing to divorce Bravo for that added bit of security, and I don't believe that is something he'd consider as a viable option either.

How do we express to her that our unwillingness to come out at this time has nothing to do with her and everything to do with work. Has anyone successfully come out to family and friends without fear that their employer might find out? Short of leaving the military or finding a new job, are there any avenues we should explore to help protect ourselves legally and financially?

I feel for you all. I was closeted for many years as I became more comfortable with being queer. I'm still closeted about being poly to my parents. It sucks. It is hard to deal with, especially when you just want to share the joy you've found with friends and family. One shouldn't have to hide joy and love. I always encourage people to be as open as they can, and to move towards being more open. (I don't always follow my own advice so well but I try.)

But...

Sometimes the closet is necessary. It can be hard to figure out when being closeted is the best way to protect loved ones and when being closeted is being done out of fear - fear that may not be warranted. I can't advise you on where that line is for your relationships. The military is generally more conservative than the wider society. It's laws are stricter in many ways and more likely to be enforced. For example, adultery is rarely pursued in civilian criminal or civil courts. That is not the case in the military. I have heard of adultery cases in military courts. And it can vary greatly, base by base, across the services, commander by commander. There is more scrutiny when maintaining a security clearance. Anyway, I think you and your husband are right to be very cautious on this. The risks are serious - it is hard to get a civilian job with a dishonorable or less than honorable discharge and it ends benefits. A court martial could mean jail.

You might consider doing the calculations to being open to some people in some situations. That is a risk. But it might be a worthwhile one. For example, I was out to friends long before I was out to my parents. It is hard to describe how utterly difficult and alienating it is to be a secret to everyone outside of the relationship. Most people can't do that, or not for long. The pressure and discomfort is intense. Consider if you can be partially open and what that would look like, what boundaries would have to be maintained, what could be loosened.

And while she may wish none of you were married, it is what it is. And not being married would not make it possible to be totally open about being poly without fear of any repercussions while serving. There are still moral clauses in military law that may apply regardless of being single or not. Yes, adultery would not be an issue. But it is a fantasy that she could be totally free and open to all about being poly while serving in the military if you two weren't married. The risk of consequences to her career, and his, are still there. All it would take is one disapproving commanding officer.

And the only way to reassure her she is valued and wanted is to treat her as someone loved and valued by both of you. I would tell her what you told us. Just straight up. Then follow that up by your actions. Search 'couple privilege' here and on Google to get a sense of what not to do.

And I gotta wonder how much of this is rooted in how her relationship with Bravo started. Sounds like they cheated and had an affair. (If this is not so, please correct me.) They tell the truth eventually and you, fortunately, were willing to deal with it. So she's been a secret and doesn't want that again. Understandable. But she was also willing to compromise her ethics before. You rather glossed over this but I do wonder about the consequences of living a lie for some time. They've been together 2 years - how long was that without your knowledge or consent?
 
And I gotta wonder how much of this is rooted in how her relationship with Bravo started. Sounds like they cheated and had an affair. (If this is not so, please correct me.) They tell the truth eventually and you, fortunately, were willing to deal with it. So she's been a secret and doesn't want that again. Understandable. But she was also willing to compromise her ethics before. You rather glossed over this but I do wonder about the consequences of living a lie for some time. They've been together 2 years - how long was that without your knowledge or consent?

Yes, you are correct. They started their relationship as an affair while they were both overseas. They broke it off for about 6 months after getting home, then started seeing each other again and that is when Bravo came clean to me. This was about a year ago. I started talking to Bean regularly and spending time with her a few months after that.

I think you are totally right, that she doesn't want to feel like a "dirty little secret", so to speak. Who would? In the future I might consider divorcing if that gave her a sense of equality, but it's not something I am willing to do right now. We have children to consider and the divorce process is lengthy and expensive, as I'm sure most people know.

We are not in a closed vee/triad. We are all free to date anyone outside that we choose. Bravo has expressed no interest but Bean and I have both been on dates with others. Since she lives so far from us I think it's important for her to go out and meet people, fool around, and form relationships at home. It wouldn't be healthy to sit at home every night holding a candle for us, you know? I just want every one to be happy. I really hope that things can work out for the three of us but I understand that the distance plus our marriage weigh heavily on her, and ultimately might be too much for her to handle. :(
 
How do we express to her that our unwillingness to come out at this time has nothing to do with her and everything to do with work.

That's going to be a tough sell. Your unwillingness to end the legal marriage to put all of you on equal footing does demonstrate where she fits into your (you and your husband) priorities. The two of you being married is more important than being on equal ground with her.

The work thing is its own issue. I would certainly not want to be married if I were polyamorous and could be fired because of some archaic morality clause (not to mention the fact that I don't want to work for an organization which has the right to meddle in my personal life).

I might consider divorcing if that gave her a sense of equality, but it's not something I am willing to do right now. We have children to consider and the divorce process is lengthy and expensive, as I'm sure most people know.

The details depend on your state, but divorcing when there is nothing contested and custody is agreed upon is not necessarily a difficult or expensive process. It's just a matter of getting the paperwork filled out and signing it in front of the judge.
 
In the future I might consider divorcing if that gave her a sense of equality, but it's not something I am willing to do right now. We have children to consider and the divorce process is lengthy and expensive, as I'm sure most people know.

What would make divorcing easier later? Have you looked into what it would take now, in the state you're in?

I realize you would have to get your own insurance, but ACA makes that possible, and the children would still be provided for. You would remove the specter of Bravo being punished for adultery. And you would pave the way for Bean (and other future loves) to have a more equal footing with you and/or Bravo.
 
I would say that the reason I would not consider divorce at this time is because this whole thing is just so new to all of us. Just like I wouldn't jump in to marry someone I'd only been dating for a few months, I won't divorce my husband for a relationship of only a few months. Bravo has obviously known her and had a relationship with her for far longer than I. I think he's more amicable to the idea, but won't do it because he knows I am not.

We are also in the process of transferring his GI Bill to me so that I can finish my degree. Until that transfer of benefits is finalized we could not file for divorce, and there are a couple of hiccups concerning that which must be addressed before the VA finalizes everything.

In our state there is a mandatory 180 day waiting period between filing and finalizing divorce when you have minor children. Divorces can drag on for years if you let them, but even an uncontested divorce in which we literally agreed on every single thing would cost us time and money that we quite simply don't have right now.

Plus, to be completely honest with you all and with myself, I think I still have this twinge of fear that ultimately they will choose to be together and exclude me (again). Being legally married or not doesn't really have any bearing on that, I know.
 
We are also in the process of transferring his GI Bill to me so that I can finish my degree. Until that transfer of benefits is finalized we could not file for divorce...

Totally practical reason.

Divorces can drag on for years if you let them, but even an uncontested divorce in which we literally agreed on every single thing would cost us time and money that we quite simply don't have right now.
The fact that it drags on for years would argue more in favor of getting started sooner, wouldn't it? Not obligating yourselves to it, but paving the way. If some of you think an amicable divorce might be in the cards in the future, you might want to start saving and planning for it.

Plus, to be completely honest with you all and with myself, I think I still have this twinge of fear that ultimately they will choose to be together and exclude me (again). Being legally married or not doesn't really have any bearing on that, I know.
Oh, it definitely has a bearing on it. If Bravo does choose Bean over you, you all (and the children) get to weather the divorce when hearts are freshly broken and decision making is heavy with emotional baggage.

It's an understandable fear, and you're brave to voice it and realize the lack of protection the legal marriage provides the actual relationship. It kind of mirrors Bean's concern that you and Bravo will "backslide" into a monogamous marriage, doesn't it?

Kudos for trying to equalize things without undermining the legal and social privilege you have as a married couple. Only Bean can say if it's enough, and I don't think there's any way to sugarcoat it in presentation to her.
 
Hi cuppycake,

Reading your reasons for not wanting to divorce right now, I have to say I can see the merit of almost all of them. Others have pointed out - and even you have yourself - that marriage won't protect your actual relationship, and it's fair that you recognise that but still have fears.

However, I personally understand why it's too soon for you. I also understand your fear, given that they started as an affair.

In any normal poly situation where the military wasn't involved, I personally don't see why you'd have to divorce to put someone else on an equal playing field. I know others have disagreed. I think couple privilege comes from the way you think about things and the way you treat a person. As a co-primary (my GF has been with her husband for 13+ yrs), I've never personally felt that my GF and her husband should divorce so that I can feel more equal. The only reason I have ever become frustrated at their legal marriage is that if they weren't married, I could marry her and move to her country. So, a little like your situation, when two people being married legally prevents another relationship from reaching completeness, I think that's a valid reason to consider divorce.

One could equally argue that if the military imposes rules that go against your polyamorous lifestyles, why are they intent on staying in the military?

I think it comes down to the here-and-now limits of each of you. If you simply do not want to get divorced right now for the reasons you gave, and Bean simply cannot live with being a secret, and you all cannot risk them losing their careers (or going to jail, if that's a possibility) for adultery, you've reached a dead end for the time being.

A compromise, if this is the case, might be to review this in 6-12 months. Perhaps you can give some thought to that? If Bean is willing to make the sacrifice of laying low for a set period (like they did when they chose to have an affair), and in return you were willing to make the sacrifice of getting divorced at the end of that period, could that be a solution? This would give you ample time to save up for the divorce fees, sort out the things you mentioned for your schooling, and see if the relationship between you all is worth making that change for. You run the risk that you all get found out and they get into serious trouble with the military, but if you simply do not want to divorce right now, then you simply don't.
 
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Hi Cuppycake,

It's interesting that we have another thread going about divorcing in order to dissolve couple privilege. See http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=269994#post269994

Since Bravo and Bean are the military persons, it actually makes more logical sense for them to be the two (of the three persons in this triad) who are married. That way they'd have a better chance of getting deployed to the same areas. And they could sponsor you and the kids moving to live (near? with?) them. But I'm sure that whole idea leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

It's always going to be complicated when the military's involved, especially if there's special security clearance. The military's definitely not ready to accept (much less work around) polyamory.

Honestly you might want to ask Bean (Bravo as well) if she'd be willing to read this thread. It kind of talks about the issues in a way that she could (perhaps even needs to) understand/appreciate. I could be wrong but it's a thought.

I'm "the unmarried fifth wheel" in a three-person V, but I do feel like an equal (and am treated like one in every way). It doesn't bother me that my two companions are married to each other. And we're not out to hardly anyone. But we're also not dealing with military employment, and we all live together. Otherwise I'd say, "Hey, it gets easier as the years go by; it has for me."

As far as I can tell, the three of you will have to "stay the course" for the time being. But maybe Bean will want to step up her search for a primary of her own that she can marry. If I was her I might be thinking that.

Sorry the three of you are caught in this dilemma.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hi Cuppycake,

It's interesting that we have another thread going about divorcing in order to dissolve couple privilege. See http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=269994#post269994

I actually started that thread after thinking how divorce was an uncommon but conceivable step for people in Cuppycake's position. I didn't want to derail her thread on the radical side issue. But I'm glad she spurred me to write about our divorce. (Thanks, Cuppycake!)
 
I actually started that thread after thinking how divorce was an uncommon but conceivable step for people in Cuppycake's position. I didn't want to derail her thread on the radical side issue. But I'm glad she spurred me to write about our divorce. (Thanks, Cuppycake!)

And thank you for taking the time to write your post. It made me think and honestly made me feel a lot better. ;)
 
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