Poly Standards, Theory, and Practice

It seems "lonely and sad to me" because it is "lonely and sad TO ME" I am not judging in that statement and would suggest that if it is seen as so then that is a judgement.

What I wanted to say about my last post was that having talked to Mono over the last days it occurs to me that I have been not speaking to our relationship in such a way that would promote people around us thinking that I am okay in it. I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, ;) it reflects more how I feel.

Good point Mono. Thanks.
 
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I've said this before so i don't want to sound as though I'm stuck in a feedback-loop BUT...

I wish people weren't so hung up on "judge not lest ye be judged". The kind of "judgment" that is being discussed on this forum is not biblical-style judgment. So far I haven't seen anyone here suggesting or endorsing that someone be stoned or excommunicated for their lifestyle choices.

The kind of "judgment" that we DO see on this forum is the type that speaks more about the person MAKING the judgment than it does about the person "being judged", and is not on the social order of violating someone's human rights.

Having said that, sometimes people need to hear things they don't want to hear. Internet forums are a great way of providing that because sometimes the people we have in our day-to-day lives are either too close to give us an objective opinion, or we may not hear their opinions in a way that effectively gets the message across.

There is barely a fine line between "opinion" and "judgment" and sometimes there is no difference in essence, only differences in the way something is perceived. Keep in mind that if I'm "judging" you, you can walk away from me or not listen, and there is not a thing I can do about that. I can "judge" you all I want, but only you can allow yourself to "be judged".

(Again, all "you"s are general, not aimed at RedPepper, Ceoli, Joreth, or anyone else in particular)
 
Agreed ygirl. Thank you for pointing that out. I wish for my words to be seen as opinions nothing more, I try and see others that way, I would appreciate the same respect. :)
 
I wish people weren't so hung up on "judge not lest ye be judged". The kind of "judgment" that is being discussed on this forum is not biblical-style judgment. So far I haven't seen anyone here suggesting or endorsing that someone be stoned or excommunicated for their lifestyle choices.

Yeah. The "judgement" I see in discussion involves that of "there are many ways to do this and I find this one works best for these reasons." That, however, is not a judgement on the people doing things in a different fashion. Indeed, for me--and I imagine for most folks here--if what any particular person is doing is working for them, I'm all for them continuing to do that until it quits working for them.

Comparison and contrast of different approaches provides information. It provides information on the variety of approaches people take to achieve the same ends. It provides added information for each to consider for when what they're doing isn't getting the results they want. It provides information that may have been missing when somebody decided to do what they do and now they can adjust to find something that works better.

I'd say it's a mistake to look at that sort of "judgement" dealing with ideas and view it as an attack on a person or an attempt to convert anybody to doing things differently. It's simply a way to share information--and the goal (for everyone, I hope)--is to help others find what works best for them.

I rail against the mis-use of terms so that we can know what in hell it is we're speaking of. That's not a judgement against the people who try to stretch terms to cover more ground than they should, it's commentary on the use of language and what works well and doesn't. Folks can still mis-use terms as they wish--it'll just result in muddled discussion.

And so on.
 
I actually wrote a big long post on just that seventh, but lost it due to being on a bus and having to get off. Haha... Thanks for posting what is was thinking for me :p.
 
I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, ;) it reflects more how I feel.

Oh I used to get in trouble for that all the time...and probably will continue to do so, whenever I used to say to my friends "Would love to go for a beer...let me check if I'm allowed!" or "Can't attend the party, not allowed out to tonight!" which was never a matter of not actually being allowed...just was always easier to say it that way.

My wife never seemed to see the humour in it.
 
I'd say it's a mistake to look at that sort of "judgement" dealing with ideas and view it as an attack on a person or an attempt to convert anybody to doing things differently. It's simply a way to share information--and the goal (for everyone, I hope)--is to help others find what works best for them.

I have done this, and the first example that comes to mind is the thread on here started by a guy who was involved with two sisters. I continue to reaffirm that I do not agree that this is "right" (and River started a whole thread for discussing taboos, ethics, etc.), but that does not mean that I don't believe that gentleman has the right to do what he wants to as long as they're all consenting adults, blah blah, yak yak, etc. etc. and so on and so forth.


Here are those two threads, for anyone who's interested:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=601

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=612


The thing that stands out to me most is that someone says "If the people involved are ok with it, then it's ok". But reading the situation, the people involved are obviously NOT ok with it. So, *I* am the one being "judgmental"?

In case no one can tell, this is a pet peeve of mine (both the "judgment" thing as well as to a certain extent the dating-first-degree-relations thing). But I have just inhaled a glass of wine and it is starting to hit me so I'm cutting this post short before I make a mess of it.
 
I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, ;) it reflects more how I feel.


I know that what you really did is you made the CHOICE to have a certain man in your life sexually and the reality of that choice requires you to refrain from pursuing additional sexual relationships with other men.

I think this is more accurate than saying you're "not allowed" or "not interested". I don't know what's going on in your mind. Correct me if I am wrong!
 
An opinion by it's very nature is a judgment.

I have nothing against judgments or opinions. But I will say one thing, I don't agree with the idea that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do believe that everyone is entitled to an informed opinion, however. We run into trouble when opinions are offered about another person's experience, because more often than not, it's waaaay less than informed. When those experiences in question start to delve into larger ethical questions, or when those experiences have a tangible effect on others around the, then informed opinions can often be appropriate.
 
Thanks for the response GS, I appreciate it... I'm struggling to really put across what I mean. I get so hurt by others and their lack of being able to just "be" in relationships... there always seems to have to be some drama or point made. Is it that people just feel like they have to fulfill their potential, or is it that they just need to be right? Is it that their passion cuts off their humanity like a double edged sword? I don't know?

I know one issue I have (that drives Maca crazy) is that I AM always striving to fulfil my personal potential. Sometimes that can be a relationship issue, particularly if the person I am with is "backpedaling".

I do prefer to just "be" in relationships and enjoy them. But at the same time, in order for me to continue growing-I need a certain amount of autonomy and acceptance and/or the person I am in a relationship with to be growing as well.....

On a side note-I HATE drama, but I SWEAR I am a magnet for it! It's rare that any of the drama in our lives is centered around our personal family relationships-but the people around us tend to strongly depend on us in their issues-so their drama permeates.

The last year or so I've found myself minimizing some friendships for exactly that reason. I just need a break from the drama-and the only way I seem to be able to find peace from it is to distance myself from them... :(
 
The last year or so I've found myself minimizing some friendships for exactly that reason. I just need a break from the drama-and the only way I seem to be able to find peace from it is to distance myself from them... :(


This I completely understand. External pressures and influences seem to be the biggest source of drama in our lives since working through the first five or six months LOL!! It's important to be able to distance yourself from destructive influences.
 
I can't really think of any specific examples on here, but the whole "people pleasing" thing resonates with me too. I was the same way and in moments of forgetfulness I still am, I also get that not everyone gets along. Call me crazy, but what I am talking about is getting past that even. To a place where we all just are... Parts we see eye to eye on and parts we are struggling with in each other.

I'm finding it hard to explain because it seems to be a nonverbal thing for me. Like a form of heightened empathy.

Its almost a spiritual thing for me and I find it hard to totally relate it to poly. I know its what I experience in my "V" but I am trying to accomplish that feeling in my poly community and beyond. I think I have achieved it at work with some of my long term co-workers. I told them just yesterday how much I love and appreciate them and some of us drive each other crazy. They all agreed. Maybe they were humouring me haha! :)

I guess the whole "type" thing is just to complicated in this whole thing. When I think of it all from afar it is making more sense. When I get down to details about more emotional people, or more theoretical it gets too detailed I think.

When I know a persons Myers briggs test results it seem to create the effect I am speaking of in an artificial way. It seems to defuse differences somehow, just in knowing we are all different and here is a test to prove it.

I think I get that somewhat RP. Like Mark's ex-wife. I can assure you-I don't like her. Not because she's ex-because she's so cruel to our son (her bio son, my step son). She is so selfish that she simply doesn't consider ANYONE's feelings but her own-including our son's.

BUT-every time she's called with her world in pieces (her mom died, her dad moved away, she got two DUI's, she has gone in and out of rehab, etc) I always take the time to help her find solutions (I even researched support groups in her town, the works) and whatever she needed to deal with her life, where she's at, with what she knows.

It's just a matter of "doing the right thing" in my mind....

sigh.... I'm tired of it all really. I just feel like crawling under a rock with my chosen family and hermitting. I totally can see why some poly families do that and just get on with their lives. I feel misunderstood after last night and the realization that I am judged. it makes me weepy, cause I try so hard to rise above that.... others like to steep in it. too much "stuff" is involved.
I hear that! It gets exhausting!!
But if you do decide to hermit can I go too!!??:)

I've found that I really tailor my conversations and "sharing" to who I am with these days. I never did before-I was just "me" all the time with everyone.

Now I'm ME with the people who I trust... and on here. I don't feel like I can't be real on here-because the reality is that there isn't a high risk of people on here causing me grief in my "real" life.

Even though I personally KNOW several people on here in my real life, they are people I am already "me" with....

But often now when we go out, I just give off a "not social" persona so people don't bother talking to me...
it kind of bothers me-I feel like a bitch. But at the same time, I feel exhausted by the drama that comes with socializing...

I think a lot of the differences in approaches between us and many others in our community are the desire for such a closely integrated unit and the fact that there is a child involved. I think that is often forgotten as most of our friends do not have dependant children and don't want the level of integration we have. Many of our friends have a more inward focus and can focus solely on what they want without the need to consider something like stability for a child.
That's kind of ironic-because all but one of the "poly" or "poly-friendly" people I know in person-have small children at home and so we all have a focus of their needs being critical in our decision making. :)


If thinking about boundaries does in fact bring up phrases like "I can't" in our own minds, than perhaps there is a control issue. If that is the case, than the question is, am I healthy in a relationship with that type of control?

To me the words "I can't" imply a desire to do so but not being allowed to; Denial.
Living in denial is not sustainable in my opinion.
This is a big deal to me. I haven't yet found a completely solution in my life-but it's something that is very important to me!

When discussing relationship boundaries especially in a possibly judgemental environment it is important to express clearly our thoughts and use words that reflect what we feel. It is also important to be honest in expressing what we feel.
I think the breakdown in this one is that too many people assume that the way THEY understand a word is the way EVERYONE understands a word. BOTH people need to verify (and sometimes double or triple verify) that they both have a clear understanding of the meaning of the words. This step alone has helped SO much in Maca and I understanding one another! I can't imagine how much it will help when talking to other people.

We get into these grooves in life-where we become so entrenched in our own perceptions-we forget that even people standing right next to us-may have different perceptions of the same situations. As soon as we do that-we risk (high risk) that we will not actually communicate to the person we are talking to-thus making talkign to them purposeless for us and them!


I think it is very important to be honest with ourselves in whether we do something because we want to or because we have to. If we do that than those around us will sense it more than hear it.
AH! Very true. Good point and well worth deeper consideration!
 
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But often now when we go out, I just give off a "not social" persona so people don't bother talking to me...
it kind of bothers me-I feel like a bitch. But at the same time, I feel exhausted by the drama that comes with socializing...
Amen to that. I do the same much of the time - and being a naturally social person it's sometimes hard. But I had to learn the hard way that not everyone who says he/she wants to be a friend ... really wants to be a friend. Or at least the way I define a friend. (And I may be one of the few people in the world who still draws a distinction between friends and acquaintances - especially given the terminology of various forms of online social media these days.)

I find myself opening up to fewer and fewer people these days.
 
I rail against the mis-use of terms so that we can know what in hell it is we're speaking of. That's not a judgement against the people who try to stretch terms to cover more ground than they should, it's commentary on the use of language and what works well and doesn't. Folks can still mis-use terms as they wish--it'll just result in muddled discussion.

And so on.
I wish I had a really great mis-use to toss out humorously here. But I don't have one off the top of my head.

I have this conversation DAILY in my real life!

Amen to that. I do the same much of the time - and being a naturally social person it's sometimes hard. But I had to learn the hard way that not everyone who says he/she wants to be a friend ... really wants to be a friend. Or at least the way I define a friend. (And I may be one of the few people in the world who still draws a distinction between friends and acquaintances - especially given the terminology of various forms of online social media these days.)

I find myself opening up to fewer and fewer people these days.

GOD! ME TOO!!!! I get so frustrated with the "friend" "acquaintance" thing. They are NOT the same thing. Nor is "coworker" the same as friend. I don't refer to coworkers as friends-unless they are ALSO friends! :)
 
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Oh I used to get in trouble for that all the time...and probably will continue to do so, whenever I used to say to my friends "Would love to go for a beer...let me check if I'm allowed!" or "Can't attend the party, not allowed out to tonight!" which was never a matter of not actually being allowed...just was always easier to say it that way.

My wife never seemed to see the humour in it.

Haha, I bet she didn't,,, but I talk like that too. I think because some people have this idea that I have it all because I have two men, that I am so much the princess and soooo well taken care of that I get anything I want. Not true. I certainly have what I need, but it's not all sweetness and roses. I work hard at balancing and negotiating what we all need, not just me. When I say I'm "not allowed" I say it tongue in cheek... I guess it's not seen that way by some.
I guess I should stop saying that.

I know that what you really did is you made the CHOICE to have a certain man in your life sexually and the reality of that choice requires you to refrain from pursuing additional sexual relationships with other men.

I think this is more accurate than saying you're "not allowed" or "not interested". I don't know what's going on in your mind. Correct me if I am wrong!

nope, that's about right ygirl.
 
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I have been continuing to talk about this with Mono and my husband and have come to the conclusion that different poly practices and standards are really about definition of poly, which leads me again to not defining myself as poly as such. It's a loaded term "poly," I just can't stand behind it if I am going to be judged by others as not doing it right because it's not their way. Also I can't stand behind it if I am going to judge others too.

Really it comes down to what is comfortable in loving one another and being intimate and connected. that's it. If it feels good to be involved in the relationship or feels right to be aiming for a certain dynamic, then that should be all that matters...

I could tell yet another story here... hmm. I have about two seconds, so why not...

On my birthday I went our with a bunch of poly friends, my husband, my boyfriend and my tersiary. My tersiary told me he had been seeing another woman and wanted me to know about it as it would effect our relationship possibly. I was effected by this as it takes me further from spending time with him... there is so little time as it is.. my friend who also has two men in her life in the form of a live in boyfriend and another boyfriend decided that night to tell me and my husband that she is attracted to our tersiary, my husband and I share him. Her two boyfriends don't know this apparently, yet she found it acceptable to give him a long kiss as we left the bar.

I was offended and concerned by this as I not only was taking the news I just heard badly, but also that one of her boyfriends is my friend and I knew he didn't know.

I have been told since then that they don't consider themselves poly. So that some how changed how I felt about the situation at the bar. I now can be comfortable with the kiss in terms of the fact that the boyfriends didn't know as they don't identify with poly... or anything for that matter. They seem to be getting along just fine with their arrangement and are loving what they have created, so this makes me feel fine with it too... sometimes my poly standards are inhibiting me to just feel okay with what people do because I forget that they are MY standards, not anyone elses...

talk about over educated at this point. I have come full circle I think.. I knew nothing of poly at one point, then everything came to light and now I am letting it go again.:p
 
Generally, the standards and practices that I follow are more about relationships being healthy than whether or not they fit a label of poly. So it never really bothers me when someone who has a very different relationship structure than mine gives it the same name that I might give mine. I think we try to make things mean more than what they actually mean in order to have a comfortable framework with which to view our choices.
 
Generally, the standards and practices that I follow are more about relationships being healthy than whether or not they fit a label of poly. So it never really bothers me when someone who has a very different relationship structure than mine gives it the same name that I might give mine.

Healthy is of course top priority... pushing what is healthy is something I like to do too... one never knows what is healthy until they feel it is such. I have surprised myself with Mono!! :D

Of course healthy has it's boundaries too as abuse is not healthy etc... I'm talking about making our own "rules" of what is healthy for us. We simply have relationship/commitment/family.... poly defined or not. That is what it is.

I think we try to make things mean more than what they actually mean in order to have a comfortable framework with which to view our choices.

I agree, I think often I do that. Then I reach my comfort level and have no use for making things mean more... I think I reached that this month. It will probably cycle though... it seems to do that for me... :rolleyes:
 
I [...] have come to the conclusion that different poly practices and standards are really about definition of poly, which leads me again to not defining myself as poly as such. It's a loaded term "poly," I just can't stand behind it if I am going to be judged by others as not doing it right because it's not their way. Also I can't stand behind it if I am going to judge others too.
The more discussion I have been having, both on here and other places, the more I am distancing myself from self-identifying as "polyamorous", mostly because I feel that the term is rapidly becoming less and less meaningful, and that it is becoming less and less descriptive of my reality.

Apparently some of the agreements that I have aren't how one should be doing poly, and the fact that I am in a relationship with two people, where one partner is monogamous, but supportive in our relationship, is "unsustainable" as well.

It's getting to the point where there are too many agendas out there and the way some are representing the poly community, or trying to shape it, makes me less and less able to consider myself a part of it.


talk about over educated at this point. I have come full circle I think.. I knew nothing of poly at one point, then everything came to light and now I am letting it go again.:p
Please make room in that boat for me.

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A clarification on re-reading this - I mean that the term is becoming so all-encompassing that it doesn't really say much meaningful about my reality any more, no more than "non-monogamous" would. Hope that explains it better.
 
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Generally, the standards and practices that I follow are more about relationships being healthy than whether or not they fit a label of poly. So it never really bothers me when someone who has a very different relationship structure than mine gives it the same name that I might give mine. I think we try to make things mean more than what they actually mean in order to have a comfortable framework with which to view our choices.

I agree. I'd add that meaning is placed in a manner that is most conducive to one group of polyamorous people while not acknowledging the experience of a other poly people. I find there is a great deal of positivity in accepting these differences then seeking to shut them out. I find this movement amongst some in the poly community rather counterproductive.

~Raven~
 
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