How to invite your wife into polyamory ?

Proven facts are more important.

AlwaysGrowing,

You're welcome to give me head pointers if you wish. You'll feel more comfortable after I clarify some miss-understandings:

  1. I never cheated. When I met Cam, my wife had left home, was living apart and we were not even talking by phone. In past, I would be patient, try to cool down, forgive her aggressiveness, try to help with encouraging words, not judge, and wait for things to turn around, focusing on feeling empathy for her. However, my vast experience has proven that such approach perpetuates the drama, allowing her disorder to push her into even more abusive behavior and speech, which could last for whatever time I was able to endure, even 6 months. Hence, I did exactly what she told me to do, to "forget" her (but not forget to pay bills though). Yet as soon as she started to regain control of her moods and ability to talk to me without deeply disrespecting me, I begun accepting her back and Cam just dimmed away naturally so she wouldn't interfere.
  2. It isn't true that I have a hidden purpose. My wife knows well that I'd love a poly relationship, but also that that would only be possible with her consent. And I had already admitted to my wife that I do have some level of physical attraction to Cam, even before my first post here. I told that to my wife as soon as I begun noticing I was having erections sometimes, when playing some jokes with Cam. Though when my wife states that my goal is just to have sex with Cam, I deny it, because I have a much deeper and beautiful purpose, in which sex really becomes something minor and unimportant.
  3. There is no forced situation. That would never work out. Every time we met Cam is was after my wife invited her, and was very surprised. The push limits thing I did was about minor and innocent things, such as pulling Cam by her arm when she was walking to the wrong direction, or asking to hug both of them while watching a film. Also, when it becomes too late I usually ask my wife to invite Cam to spend the night in our home and leave next day morning. My wife had shown she was uncomfortable with that, but first time that happened, next day we had such an incredible day together in a park that I thought it a worthy experience, but as it became more frequent it just made my wife's insecurity grow. She is unsure if I will always resist going there into Cam's bed. Now I think we need to talk more about that before it can happen again.
  4. I'm not a moral compass, but very good principles. Depending on the criteria, my wife's ethical behavior may even be slightly more "pure" than mine. She does extreme things, but later she regrets them. And I am always 100% forthright with Cam. I told her I loved someone else since I met her first time. And that is exactly what made her become comfortable enough to date me. Afraid of falling in love with anyone, she was too shy to think about anything too "serious" and preferred something closer to a friend with benefits.

We can't live without judging things. The problem is when we take conclusions too fast and do very wrong judgements, based on our own life experience for example. I don't do that because I see the world as a scientist. That means I don't rely on pure logic, no matter how appealing it is. I try to rely only on proven facts, or at least theories that don't show any contradiction with the proven facts. And the fact is that my wife's well being, trust and behavior have improved greatly. Cam's social behavior has also improved greatly. She is really unbuttoning.
 
I haven’t read through everything everyone has commented but I just wanted to say communicate communicate communicate.

You might not like your wife’s response then again you might. But if you open up the door you have to be prepared to not hear what you want.
 
As I'm understanding the situation (and correct me if I'm wrong), your wife has borderline personality disorder, and Cam was raised by a parent with BPD. I have long suspected my sister of undiagnosed BPD; consequently, I've done an extensive amount of research on the subject.

It seems to me as though you're using your wife's disorder as a means to fulfill your fantasies of control. Her disorder is so serious that it makes your behavior look rational & calm in contrast. I find this deeply worrisome, especially coupled with your attitude toward "healing" Cam.

Some of the major criteria for a BPD diagnosis are intense fears of abandonment, black/white thinking, and an unstable sense of self. None of those traits cohabit well with polyamory. I can't see your behavior as anything but unethical.
 
Control ?

mostlymonogamish,

I never said I'm "healing" Cam. Just said that she has been more social. And I didn't say this is my work either. She is the author of her own success, reached through means of other people, were I'm just am arm for her.

Now what do you mean with "fantasies of control". Can you elaborate more on that please?

None of those traits cohabit well with polyamory.

From a logical perspective, it seems so. But I suggest you to research it, and you'll probably notice that statistics seem to point towards the opposite (co-occurrence).
 
LQ,

Basically, you are trying to pile codependency on top of codependency. If you want a pat on the head for that, i think you'll have to look elsewhere.
 
Happy end

... and everything went well !

After rainy Saturday plans were re-scheduled for Sunday, we all re-met in the water park with all the kids and everyone loved it. Cam was surprisingly expressive in stating that she has loved it. My wife also expressed great happiness and satisfaction, feeling that her boundaries were respected. She became comfortable enough to allow me to give a close hug and kiss in the cheek on Cam's goodbye.

My wife had her regular emotional moments before and during the day, exclusively due to her disorder, and initially I wasn't handling well, until I did, with a long and patient private conversation (more like a compassionate discourse that a parent elaborates for his emotional kid, but that's the best way to help her). And from there on she felt cared/loved and became joyful all the time. As I predicted, my own well-being was key to give me that energy/motivation. Without Cam's presence I wouldn't make it.

May seem very little progress with no clear indication of anything close to the what I've desired and polyamory, but my intuition says that although distant it is pointing onto that direction, to be reached some years ahead.

Side note:
I realized my challenge is much more about handling her disorder than discussing the mono/poly paradigm. It's a very poorly understood disorder, even by professionals who earn money treating it, thus I shouldn't expect any acceptance or comprehension in a board which is not even about that, or from people who haven't been on my situation. It was a mistake to share here too many details about such dynamic plus my own non-orthodox views and methods derived from successful results. Thus I don't care about the "angry critics" I got. Even because when I talk to people which have been in my situation, I get plain more of agreements and compliments than disagreements.
 
Last edited:
Hi LoveQuest,

I'm very happy for you that things went so well on Sunday. Can I ask, what disorder does your wife have? and, what disorder does Cam have? I have lost track. Was BPD in there somewhere?

I think you are doing just fine.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
kdt26417,

Thanks !
Yes, my wife and Cam's mother. Though Cam doesn't have any disorder. She is just very shy and does little social engagement. She says she is happy in doing entertainment all by herself or with internet groups of strangers, but I can see through it that she just needs to feel accepted and included by people who respect and care about her, like on Sunday.
 
Okay good, that's what I was thinking.
 
Hi Tinwen,
I took some time to think about your remarks before replying.

You said you were making your best effort not to make judgments, but your questions were not rendered out of curiosity but from the desire of showing I'm wrong by pointing out any contradiction. But isn't that the exact definition of judgment, to have the conclusion in forehand, before getting any answer?
I, too, had to take a break.
I try not to judge as in condemning someone as wrong or immoral. That's not quite the same as having opinions about the situation, including perceiving contradictions and having ideas of what works and what does not.
I didn't want to show you're wrong, I wanted to make you think about those topics. The form of questions is sometimes good for that.

Anyway, I agree it's not direct communication, and as I urged you to be upfront I will not do that again.

I actually think now your situation might be viable - depending on the exact position your wife has. That is something which is still utterly unclear.
It would be really interesting to hear from her now.

I refuse to give you a free pass though just because she has a disorder and you're the caregiver, and there was alarming stuff in this thread.
I insist for example that finding 'replacements' for sex if she pushes you away is a very poor way to manage your own issues.

(to be continued)
 
None of those traits cohabit well with polyamory.
From a logical perspective, it seems so. But I suggest you to research it, and you'll probably notice that statistics seem to point towards the opposite (co-occurrence).
So I actually did my research on Borderline and polyamory. Among the first hits on google is a short destigmatizing article, and a wonderful self-reflective blog, quoting from which:
As a person struggling with symptoms consistent with BPD, I need an emotionally open environment which allows for honesty, vulnerability, and support. Polyamory provides an ideal environment to achieve all of these things because it allows me to develop intimacy with many people. From a variety of loving partners, metamours, friends, and an extended network of people who are more likely to be emotionally open, I have the ability to choose my family or tribe in a way that will be healthy to me which the monogamous world does not as readily supply.
Meaning that at least some people with BPD do choose polyamory for themselves as the best environment.
Well, two people at least. If you do have statistics, please share.

There is however one striking difference, LoveQuest, between how these bloggers write and how you write about your wife. These people are taking all the responsibility for their own lives, and seem perfectly capable of determining what's best for them and doing big decisions. When you write, it's indeed as if your wife was a kid who has to be told what to do.

I realized my challenge is much more about handling her disorder than discussing the mono/poly paradigm. It's a very poorly understood disorder, even by professionals who earn money treating it, thus I shouldn't expect any acceptance or comprehension in a board which is not even about that, or from people who haven't been on my situation. ...
Well you didn't even tell us the context. We had to guess it's borderline.
(Which wasn't that difficult to suspect.)
Besides, a lot of the criticism you get was poly - related. We often have to tell people to stop pushing their partners and that they need enthusiastic consent, otherwise things are going to explode.

If your wife were like those bloggers above - capable of self-reflection and actively working on her issues - the two topics could be separated. There would be her emotional moments where you have to soothe her like a child, but there would also be her maintaining some distance from her own illness, able to decide if polyamory is something that could ever be viable for her or not and able to have a an equal dialogue with you at her good times.

Your approach to polyamory and managing her illness would be separable topics - and if you DO separate them for us a little bit we can talk to you about both, or at least about the relationship part.

If your wife IS capable of making this decision for herself, you must give her the opportunity by being upfront and respecting her limits. Just like in any other relationship. It's the only ethical thing to do, the only empowering one and the only one that doesn't breed resentment (yes, judgement ;)). Is that so?

But if your wife's mental health is so bad that she literally isn't capable of making those decisions for herself, then that's a real ethical riddle. The conservative approach would certainly be not to do polyamory.

Again, it would be really interesting to hear from your wife.

And because she trusts me, I was able to make an agreement. After realizing that the only way to make progress into any kind of poly acceptance is to remove her discomfort, I resigned into the fact that I must compromise in my freedom and not push her limits. Hence the agreement is that whenever Cam is around I will take up the responsibility of making my wife feel good.
May seem very little progress with no clear indication of anything close to the what I've desired and polyamory, but my intuition says that although distant it is pointing onto that direction, to be reached some years ahead.
Your patience is going to serve you well. Many people (including myself three years ago) fall into the 'now or never' trap, go too fast and break their relationships. If you've realized that pressure is not going to get you anywhere and big changes take their time, that's a big achievement right there.
 
How it begun...

Hi Tinwen,

Thanks for your acknowledgments and for the links.

In monogamy you must have "ended" one relationship before engaging in another. Thus if you don't want to be single, you must do a "replacement" and I believe it would be hypocrisy to say otherwise. While the "ended" term may be a quite relative in some situations, it other it is a clear end.

It is an end for me when for a sustained period your ex-partner is living apart, rejecting any contact or even any apology, treating you worse then a piece of shit, and you finally give up on fixing things or waiting. No mood disorder should be accepted as an excuse for such behavior.

So yes initially I met Cam searching for a female figure replacement, for caring and cuddling. Though Cam was NOT a replacement for sax, as you wrote. Remember I never had actual sex with Cam, as she had chosen to be virgin. To make things clear, we did play around and she had orgasm but not me. Anyway, soon my wife started trying to reconcile with me, we met sometimes and ended up sleeping together once per week or so, and Cam was fine with that, preferring an open relationship, so only not a V because one of the legs was fighting to make it monogamous. But most important thing is that no one was being deceived.

But if your wife's mental health is so bad that she literally isn't capable of making those decisions for herself, then that's a real ethical riddle. The conservative approach would certainly be not to do polyamory.

Well I don't think that shifting from mono to poly is as simple as making a decision. For those who have only been taught about relationships in mono terms, due to family culture and religious beliefs, shifting to poly is a huge paradigm shift which is expected to take a very long time. Don't you agree?

So I don't think her ability to take decisions comes so much into question here. Because although I can persuade her into minor decisions, it most likely ends up being counter-productive, as she will blame me for whatever negative feeling she experiences. Unless she actually enjoys such the result.

Although those bloggers seem to be self aware and good decision makers, this is only when their amygdala is not beaming and hijacking their prefrontal cortex to produce a fight-or-flight response. I guess the main difference between her and those blog authors is that they are good writers an probably have not been raised in such a strict culture as her.

Following her parents, in past she was worked at the church and tried to follow their doctrine strictly, until she couldn't anymore. Ironically, her parents divorced because her mother was cheating.

Also, it is much easier when you approach the polyamory topic focusing on your own desires (wishing to receive consent) instead of your partner's desires (willing to give consent). Our recent discussions on the topic were more about the later (to give me consent), but in past I had already discussed with her about polyamory focusing on the former (to give her consent).

Many years ago we had split for a while, she met some people, then we recouped. But then she developed the habit of telling me all kind of things that made me uncomfortable, such as talking about past sex experiences of her during our own sexual intercourse. That is when I begun looking towards polyamory, to free myself from such discomfort. Interestingly, as soon as I overcame it and actually invited her to make contact with those guys if she wished, she then got freed from her "compulsive thoughts".

She still had some feelings for a guy in the place she studied. I met him once, along with all other students, and later I gave her the consent to talk freely and get home late, or even date him if she wished. She seemed a bit offended with my consent because this went against her principles and probably she didn't quite understand it. So she begun avoiding any contact with him at all sorts. Maybe she felt it wouldn't work and she would risk loosing me. Coincidence or not, he switched his study place for another neighborhood. So I think they both avoided each other due to disbelief and ignorance around poly relationships.

Finally, anyone with her disorder requires, to some extent, one or more caregivers, even if not an extreme case with the full range of symptoms. That includes the bloggers too. For the other partner, however, this duty (of care-giving) almost always becomes a burden for a single person, which is the a reason for their romantic mono relationships to fail. Having multiple independent caregivers (or partners) tends to be detrimental too, as the disorder will driver her into doing smearing campaigns of both and either side who validates it will increase her anger and miss-perception of reality on the other side. Though having multiple caregivers can work well if it is more like a united group, family or triangle were the are all in pace with the same reality.

Btw, my wife has no knowledge of English language.
 
In monogamy you must have "ended" one relationship before engaging in another. Thus if you don't want to be single, you must do a "replacement" and I believe it would be hypocrisy to say otherwise. While the "ended" term may be a quite relative in some situations, it other it is a clear end.

It is an end for me when for a sustained period your ex-partner is living apart, rejecting any contact or even any apology, treating you worse then a piece of shit, and you finally give up on fixing things or waiting. No mood disorder should be accepted as an excuse for such behavior.
While I agree that poor treatment ends relationships, I disagree on everything else. First, it's a very different story than the one you gave earlier. Let me repeat:
The deal breaker for me is to deprive me from closeness (including sex for a while), then leave me and treat me poorly by phone, continuously. She has done that a few times in past, and unfortunately I have suffered a lot. But she has quit doing it since I begun to react by fulfilling my need. How? As soon as I become angry enough and it became a deal breaker for me, I found "a replacement" in a couple of days. The push-pull thing is part of her disorder, so this has happened 3-4 times, but as soon as I start sleeping with someone else, my wife switches into pull mode. Cam was been however the only significant relationship, not just a one/two night stand.
Second, if you're looking for a new partner, you're looking for a partner for his own qualities, not to replace the old one. And, if your relationship has indeed ended, you grieve first which generally takes more than a few days.
Or, if you're looking for a one night stand to soothe yourself, you're looking for that, but still not to replace your old partner -- who presumably was so much more.
If you can't stand going through the world unpartnered so you have to find someone to cuddle with ASAP (i.e. replacement), that's sad. It leads you to see people only through the lens of fulfilling your need, which is dehumanizing indeed.

Well I don't think that shifting from mono to poly is as simple as making a decision. For those who have only been taught about relationships in mono terms, due to family culture and religious beliefs, shifting to poly is a huge paradigm shift which is expected to take a very long time. Don't you agree?
Yes, but one can (and I argue that one has to) make a conscious decision about direction and set the intention to shed these beliefs. Otherwise I don't see how anyone would get through the process. I argue one has to be at least intellectually, but better yet emotionally, on board with the final vision. Which includes self-reflection and decision making.

So I don't think her ability to take decisions comes so much into question here. Because although I can persuade her into minor decisions, it most likely ends up being counter-productive, as she will blame me for whatever negative feeling she experiences. Unless she actually enjoys such the result.
Exactly. You can't pull her along without her making the steps. She has to choose to walk the path.

Although those bloggers seem to be self aware and good decision makers, this is only when their amygdala is not beaming and hijacking their prefrontal cortex to produce a fight-or-flight response.
I'm aware of that. People will have better moments and worse moments - that's why you make decisions on your good moments, not on your terrible ones. If she has BPD she'll likely have a harder time following through, you will have to help her more, but the principle is the same - if the spouse is reluctant to agree, he'll not even try to get through the worse moments.

Also, it is much easier when you approach the polyamory topic focusing on your own desires (wishing to receive consent) instead of your partner's desires (willing to give consent).
Indeed. It's called double standard and most people have to work through some of it. It's hard.

Finally, anyone with her disorder requires, to some extent, one or more caregivers, even if not an extreme case with the full range of symptoms. That includes the bloggers too. For the other partner, however, this duty (of care-giving) almost always becomes a burden for a single person, which is the a reason for their romantic mono relationships to fail. Having multiple independent caregivers (or partners) tends to be detrimental too, as the disorder will driver her into doing smearing campaigns of both and either side who validates it will increase her anger and miss-perception of reality on the other side. Though having multiple caregivers can work well if it is more like a united group, family or triangle were the are all in pace with the same reality.
So this is your vision. That's all well and good as long as you're upfront with your potentials (which, hopefully, you are).

Btw, my wife has no knowledge of English language.
I see. That's unfortunate :( See if there are any resources translated to her language, that might be helpful.
 
Last edited:
I miss the mating seasons...

Tinwen,

And, if your relationship has indeed ended, you grieve first which generally takes more than a few days.

Let me clarify, I did grieve relationships for very long periods in the past, even being very depressed for months. Though after the grieving comes the gradual giving-up, then the anger for being unfairly humiliated and rejected for so long, quickly followed by moving forward mindset with my senses restored. Then somehow such anger leads me to take initiative into finding someone else (which is usually quite difficult for me) and I get quick results. So when I wrote "As soon as I become angry enough and it became a deal breaker for me, I found "a replacement" in a couple of days" I was kind of congratulating myself from lifting up. After going through this cycle for a number of times, it becomes so predictable that I can move forward faster and be more on control of my emotions, but nevertheless it is painful.

And when I said "as soon as I start sleeping with someone else", as explained earlier, this was my English mistake. I should have written "as soon as she noticed someone else was spending the night in my place".

Second, if you're looking for a new partner, you're looking for a partner for his own qualities

Well, as an introvert male, I never found a partner without actively seeking for it and being highly motivated. When you say "looking for a partner for his own qualities" it seems more like the second step, when you already have someone in mind. Like choosing between going deeper or not with someone who is already courting you or dating. For me though it's more like it occurs in nature during the mating season. First, I need to approach and show my fathers when I see a potential good looking female, hoping she will get interested. And we'll only know each other after a while and a couple of dates.

Or, if you're looking for a one night stand to soothe yourself, you're looking for that, but still not to replace your old partner -- who presumably was so much more.

Alright, that makes sense. No one has ever fully replaced her, but sometimes all we need is a nice conversation and little passion to feel much better. Especially when you have a deeply broken heart, which turns out to be a frequent scene when your partner is so unstable (or even vindictive such as my previous wife). And the affinity with the new person I meet is what mostly determines if it's going to be a one night stand or a longer story.

If you can't stand going through the world unpartnered so you have to find someone to cuddle with ASAP (i.e. replacement), that's sad. It leads you to see people only through the lens of fulfilling your need, which is dehumanizing indeed.

Yes, and I agree it is very sad to feel so lonely when single and even within a relationship with someone who loves you so much, still feel lonely. It's a deep rooted feeling that comes from childhood. Though this is my love quest and I expect to recover.

It leads you to see people only through the lens of fulfilling your need, which is dehumanizing indeed.

I don't get that one. This is bi-directional. I always meet girls who are also feeling lonely or share some of my needs. I actually focus much more on their needs than on mine, because I find it quite easier to bringing joy for someone else.

Yes, but one can (and I argue that one has to) make a conscious decision about direction and set the intention to shed these beliefs. Otherwise I don't see how anyone would get through the process. I argue one has to be at least intellectually, but better yet emotionally, on board with the final vision. Which includes self-reflection and decision making.

That's ideal, but on reality, people change their minds, don't they?

Here is one example. On Saturday we went to the party from the 2 year old kid from an old friend. Long ago, his wife didn't want to have kids, but he persuaded her into having one child, about how good would it be. And after the first one he begun explaining how lonely a single child would feel, and persuading her to have a second. And guess what, she was pregnant again. I don't think this is unethical nor dehumanizing, it's beautiful.

Exactly. You can't pull her along without her making the steps. She has to choose to walk the path.

And, like in the example I just gave, your partner's choice may sometimes change with some work from you.

but the principle is the same - if the spouse is reluctant to agree, he'll not even try to get through the worse moments.

That is true, motivation for changing must exist before the actual change begins. That's what I'm seeking for. On how to motivate her.
 
I must admit I'm getting a bit lost on what's important and what is not, in this thread. Someone else? Galagirl? FalenAngelina? Please?

LoveQuest, the most important area is still rather unclear to me. What is it exactly, that you have proposed to your wife? And what's her current standpoint on it?

That is true, motivation for changing must exist before the actual change begins. That's what I'm seeking for. On how to motivate her.
The short answer is, you can try, but there's no guarantee of success. Methods to "motivate someone" will fail unless there's intrinsic motivation already present to be uncovered.

The proper approach is not in trying to change her but in seeking common ground. You ask the person talk. You lay all your cards on the table. The other person does the same. You are brutally honest with yourself and her, and very openmindedly trying to understand her standpoint. You look for intersections in what you both want out of the situation. You look at the potential for development. You seek compromise on conflicting areas. If you've found something you both want, great, that's your common ground to build on. If you haven't, the issue (and potentially the relationship) is off the table.

Talking about the possibilities and seeking what's acceptable and what isn't is bound to take some time (we're talking about months - ~ a year here under normal circumstances). Don't try to do this in one situation.

You have good arguments for the negotiation. You're convinced a bigger kitchen-table-poly style household is a good environment for her. Tell her why and listen if she agrees. You're convinced that you would thrive in that situation. Tell her and ask if she's willing to let it happen.

Radical honesty, understanding, goodwill and patience are really all you have.

Unfortunately, power imbalances and manipulative communication complicate the equation. The more of these there is, the more painful is the process usually.

But again, the point is not as much to convince, but to seek common ground.
 
Last edited:
I could be wrong, but these are the highlights as I understand them in more or less chronological order. (LoveQuest, you correct me if I get it wrong.)

  • English is not LoveQuest's first language.

  • LoveQuest has a wife who has borderline personality disorder. Wife does not speak English at all.

  • Things were not so hot between LoveQuest and wife. She was emotionally and sexually abandoning the relationship. The deal breaker for LoveQuest was when she deprived LoveQuest from closeness (including sex), then left him/the family home, and then treated him poorly/like shit by phone. (Like... she left but wasn't GONE gone so he could have peace.)

  • She has done that kind of push-pull behavior a few times in past, and LoveQuest has suffered a lot.

  • LoveQuest is/was going through caregiver burn out/depression/anger/feeling unappreciated/losing sense of own self in service to the patient, etc.

  • At some point LoveQuest finally give up on fixing things or waiting any more.

  • At some point LoveQuest chose to handle the “push-pull” behavior by seeking other partners for sex share or sleep share or X (At some point in the thread LoveQuest figured out that in English "sleep with" is a euphamism for "share sex." I'm not sure in which way he meant it here.)

“As soon as I become angry enough and it became a deal breaker for me, I found "a replacement" in a couple of days. The push-pull thing is part of her disorder, so this has happened 3-4 times, but as soon as I start sleeping with someone else, my wife switches into pull mode. Cam was been however the only significant relationship, not just a one/two night stand.”

  • LoveQuest sees Cam as different than the previous companions because she was not a one/two night stand person, and he met her when he and wife were separated.

  • LoveQuest enjoys Cam's company in general as well as finding another Borderline caregiver who gets what that role entails. (LoveQuest does caregiver work for his BPD wife. Cam does caregiver work for her BPD mother.)

  • Wife wanted to work on marriage again and she and LoveQuest are no longer separated. (Though he said he had given up on fixing things... I assume LoveQuest changed his mind and took her back.)

  • LoveQuest is not sure how real this is or how long this “being close again phase" will last. So LoveQuest wants to keep going with Cam and has told wife (?) that if LoveQuest and wife are going to continue married rather than continue the separation, LoveQuest doesn't want to do it like before. LoveQuest prefer a poly thing or at least a "working toward poly" thing.

  • Cam is up for an Open relationship V thing with LoveQuest as the hinge... provided she gets a green flag from wife. Wife prefers to be just LoveQuest and her but since she separated and came back... if she wants to come back that's part of the price of admission.

  • Wife has to accept that the “old” marriage is done, and this will have to be a “new” marriage. LoveQuest will respect wife's boundaries and not rush things, and in turn wife will allow LoveQuest more freedoms as time goes on. That's the current deal.

  • At this point in time, LoveQuest has decided to stop pursuing Cam as a lover in the hopes that wife will allow more freedom later.

  • Wife is aware of LoveQuest's attraction to Cam and vice versa. She figures eventually LoveQuest will want to be lovers with Cam. LoveQuest tends to downplay it as a minor part of his love for Cam. (But whether labeled "major" or "minor" LoveQuest would like sex share to eventually be part of his relationship with Cam. )

  • At this time LoveQuest just wants to share sleep with both ladies – like everyone napping in the same bed.

  • At this time, LoveQuest will share sex only with wife. Cam can go share sex with whoever she wishes.

  • At this time what LoveQuest, Wife and Cam actually share is time together – doing activities like coming over to visit, the water park, etc. No shared naps yet.

  • LoveQuest enjoys this phase more since it is "up front and in the open" rather than how it was in the past when he were hanging around with other companions without wife's consent/knowledge and/or possible walking on eggshells and not speaking his entire truth in order to avoid a BPD scene.

  • It sounds like for now, LoveQuest, wife and Came are trying to make this "working toward a poly V" thing work even it if means going slow and waiting for wife to become more confident in it.

  • LoveQuest has come to realize that his bigger issues/burdens are more with "being a BPD caregiver" than "poly stuff." (At first he thought it was poly stuff.)
    • At this time he wants advice on how to motivate/manage his BPD patient wife.

So if I am getting the highlights right... I think there isn't a lot to advise on right now on the "V" thing. LoveQuest and the ladies have to find their own way through this.

My only suggestions for you, LoveQuest, would be to think things out and plan ahead whatever the final outcome.

  • Define how long this "on trial" thing will run. A few weeks? Months? How long before you folks make the final assessment?

  • What if at the end of that time this experiment does not work out? Then what? Do you finish the separation with wife and move on to divorce so you can have caregiver relief and be free of the caregiver work/depression/burn out stuff? You seem to have some history of breaking up and getting back together. If you do break up... it may need to be for good so you can all move forward and stop with the back and forth thing.

  • What if this goes well? What are you going to do about you getting caregiver relief in that situation? Cam does not exist to be your life raft. She can listen some, but she has her own caregiver work to be doing. You might want to think about a counselor for you or joining a caregiver support group in person or online.

It's one of the biggest mistakes to caregiver-ing. Not taking care of one's OWN self too. Or spending too much time "chasing the patient" around rather than letting the patient be responsible for their own stuff/jobs while you are responsible for your stuff/jobs. So make sure you put your OWN support networks in place. You sound a bit too enmeshed with your wife.

How to motivate a BPD patient depends on the patient and what stage of their illness they are in and what their capabilities are. In your case -- is she in a "push" phase or in a "pull" phase. in the "idealizing" phase or the "devaluing" phase. You will do better researching patient management techniques on a patient board rather than on a poly board. You could try out of the fog. But you may have to seek a BPD specific board.

My only other suggestion pertains to this quote that Cam said to you:

For instance, she has a FWB called Les and once she said "I wouldn't worry if I got pregnant from you or Les, but I'll pray for God that I'll never get pregnant from my boyfriend, he is an ogre."

Please consider using condoms and other birth control methods with both Wife and Cam (if you and Cam eventually share sex). The last thing you folks need right now is an "oops!" baby when you are trying to stabilize a "working toward poly V" thing. Focus on one thing at a time. Avoid spreading selves too thin.

I'm not sure why Cam would keep on dating an "ogre" much less going bareback with him and risking an accidental pregnancy by him.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
I feel vilified...

GalaGirl,

Thanks for your big effort in trying to make things clear. Though many of your highlights are not precise and I feel very vilified by such interpretation. Thus I'll try to clarify.

  • First, I am not expecting any advice on my wife's disorder form this board. This is the reason why I never mentioned the disorder name. I consider myself an expert on the subject and I do participate in other boards which are appropriate for such discussion. I have 30+ years of experience with this disorder and other similar disorders, which gives me plenty of practical knowledge as well. I have explained the dynamics because people here got really confused and got things wrong. And it might be instructive.
  • My wife is not being distant or anything like that. Everything I described about push/pull and separations are part of a burried past. Both because she has recovered and because I have adapted myself to that. Today, she isn't able to hurt me anymore. Anyway my worst experiences don't come from this relationship, but from previous marriage, when I was less experienced, and had a different wife.
  • Sex has never been an issue with current wife. The relationship has never been cold. Much to the contrary, it has always been too hot, which is no surprise when one partner has such disorder.
  • The push-pull thing is the strongest "weapon" that such disorder from devil uses to create chaos in relationships, and it can create a huge crater on one's heart. But I have grown immune from it by just being fair with myself. Once she told me "Go fu** yourself with someone else and leave me alone.", then I did just that, on the same night. She watched it from a distance, literally, without interfering, but next day was happy to switch quickly to pull mode. More than happy, she was so exited that she got an "external orgasm" with me for the first time, and her disorder hasn't driven her to say such mess again since.
  • I have never been dishonest or untruthful with my wife. She has always asked details, which I provided. Even unnecessary details such as the amount of intimacy or the number of times I had an orgasm. She appreciates my honesty. Hence I do believe she has some voyeurism tendency.
  • With Cam it was different both because we have affinity and because my wife thus took a longer time to give up on the non-sense fight (she was very disregulated biologically).
  • Yes, my bigger issues are with her disorder, which is recovered but still present. Though this is not an independent aspect. It totally changes the prospect of a mono-to-poly switch possibility.
  • I don't have issues related to being a caregiver. Today, I'm far from that. This is actually a word that wasn't brought by me into this thread. She is an attention seeker but I rarely giver her any attention, except when I notice she is willing to be cooled down and I have the energy/motivation to do so. The thing about sticking to this relationship is that I have a love void and a love-intensive relationship does help.
  • Don't worry for my usage of condom or birth control. I'm not in a sex quest. It is a love quest, which does not require sex. Anyway I'm experienced in safe sex, I have enough kids and they are all emotionally healthy and excelling in school. With enough love, I have buffered them onto their hazardous environments.
  • By the way, Cam does not have any contact with the "ogre ex-boyfriend" anymore. It was just an adventure with a passionate partner for 6 months or so.
  • Divorce is out of question by now. Both because my bond to my wife is too strong and because we have a young baby. For me and my wife, the baby's need of affection and stability come on top of everything else.
  • I have never done anything without full knowledge of my wife. I don't quite walk o eggshells and I'm not afraid of any tantrum. For instance I have got a bleeding nose after being punched on the face for answering with truth, but that didn't change my truthfulness. I know when to forgive and when to defend/react. But she isn't physically violent anymore.
 
Back
Top