my last chance, perspective needed

arquera

New member
Hi all! I'm at the worst place I've ever been in my life. Need guidance.
I'm 30 years old. My boyfriend of 9 years V. (35) and our girlfriend of 9 months S. (20) have technically dumped me.
We all live together and work together running a music label and concert venue.
V. and I had a monogamous relationship, but on a sexual level, in the realm of fantasy, we were very open (bdsm) so the idea of him being with other women was kinky to us, although we never did it.
15 months ago S. moved in with us for work (she's from abroad and we were growing the project, so was necessary on an economic level that we lived together to reduce costs). The communal living was idylic, we instantly became very close friends and full of energy. A couple of months later V. became infatuated with S., I also felt strong attraction, and S. reciprocated to us both, so we started a sporadic sexual relationship which developed into a triad, each with our own duo relationship in every direction.
As time progressed I was requested by V. to provide him and S. with more space for their relationship to grow. I did so, generously, but as their relationship progressed to a deep love enveloped in high NRE, my relationship with V. all but dissapeared as (at V.'s very recent admission) the time dedicated to each relationship has become completely imbalanced to their advantage.
My reactions to the situation have been increasingly negative, much shouting and crying and accusing, which I know is 100% wrong. But no matter how many calm and quiet conversations or on the other hand nervous breakdowns I've had, have created any change in the situation. We've been on the decline for the last 4 months.
Two weeks ago I was given an ultimatum by V. and S. to either go to therapy with them or I'd be left behind. We've been to two sessions but V. confessed to me a couple of days ago that he just can't be with me anymore and wants to stay with S and just wants to breakup smoothly. He's sick of the accusations and the shouting from me. I know he still loves me and is hurt and confused. He has said that if there's a huge change in me there is a small possibility of getting back together. I'm giving him the space he's requesting.
S. on the other hand is flip flopping on wether she wants to continue as a triad or continue a monogamous relationship with V. Her emotions switch from love to hate towards me on a daily basis. I'm forcing myself to be zen and to provide her love and support at all times, even though it's very hard for me to accept that she takes no responsability whatsoever in her actions. She has had terrible episodes of jealousy when V. and I have been together...etc yet her view of the problem is that it's purely an issue between me and V., and that I'm in the way of her relationship with him. I know she has also been pressuring V. on that note.
I love them both, although deeply hurt by them I can understand S.'s feelings are from a lack of maturity (she's very young and inexperienced) and V.'s at his wit's end and just wants to disconnect in the context of a carefree new relationship he doesn't feel pressured by.
My will is to grow and become more positive. My will is to rebuild a solid triad relationship with three solid bases. Any advice on how to regain my two loves back?
Infinite thanks. L.
 
They have both straight up said they do not a relationship with you.

It's over. Be strong and let them go.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

TLTR

My will is to grow and become more positive. My will is to rebuild a solid triad relationship with three solid bases. Any advice on how to regain my two loves back?

You will alone does not make a triad. It takes all 3 people's will, and all 3 people sharing the same goal. You do not have that here.

Basically it sounds like neither V or S take personal responsibility for their actions. I just don't see how a triad can work in a healthy way like that. :(

Neither V or S want to triad any more.

I think the change in perspective you could consider is letting go of the want to keep this triad flying. Because that kite just will not fly any more.

LONG VERSION

V doesn't want to be with you any more. He also is not asking for specific behaviors that therapy is supposed to help with. Just this vague "He has said that if there's a huge change in me there is a small possibility of getting back together."

  • I don't see where you have done any wrong behaviors.
  • He wanted space so he could develop (V+S) and you gave it.
  • He neglected (V+ you).
  • You made him aware in calm and upset ways. (To me when someone increases emotional intensity like that? They really want you to LISTEN to the message. )
    • Instead of listening and owning how HIS behavior contributes to the situation making? It seems like he wants you to shut up about it so he can feel "less pressure."
    • Less pressure to do what? Less pressure to own that he's neglecting you and less pressure to change that behavior?

Meanwhile S does not own how she contributes to the problems with her behavior.

She is pressuring V for a mono thing.
  • She does not own that this contributes to the "pressure" V feels.

She also thinks this problem is on the (V + you) layer.

  • But S is not generous about making space for (V+you) time so you can work on problems
  • S see's you as competition for V's attention and acts out sometimes.
    • Result is all eyes on her, and (V+you) time not happening.

I don't see why it is YOUR last chance. Rather than everyone's last chance to triad here. For it to work, you all have to pull together. I'm not seeing that here. I see you all pulling in different directions:

  • You are willing to change behaviors, but V is not telling you specific behavior to change and work on in therapy. After a few sessions, he just wants to break up. So... I don't know that he entered therapy in good faith. Or it's that the therapist asked him to own his poor behavior and he doesn't want to.
  • V wants you to change -- but sounds like what he wants is for you just shut up and let him do whatever he wants. Without him having to actually SAY that out loud.
  • S wants you to go away.

You could take a break and REDUCE stress that way. So you can clear your head and think more clearly. Take a hotel stay, go stay with a friend, however it is you do it. Right now you seem to think it's all on YOU to "make it work" rather than each member of the triad doing their fair share.

When clear headed? You could CLARIFY.
  • List what behavior from V ADDS to the problems or TAKES AWAY from the problems.
  • List what behavior from S ADDS to the problems or TAKES AWAY from the problems.
  • List what behavior from you ADDS to the problems or TAKES AWAY from the problems.

Then talk about it in therapy and ask if people are willing to own their stuff and work on their lists so things improve. And maybe change from a triad to a V with "V" as the only hinge. That gets you out of the "stuck."

If they are NOT willing, you could end it. And REDUCE stress that way. You could just plain break up and rather than drag it out, move on to the healing space so you can start to feel better in time. You could work with the therapist on accepting it is over. That also gets you out of the "stuck."

That's all I can think of right now.

Painful as it might be, I think it would be better to let it end. You cannot make a healthy functioning triad when 2 out of 3 are sounding like they want to stop being in a triad. From a willingness POV, you don't have 3 people willing to triad here any more.

From an energy POV? Whatever the "small percent chance" is -- it's sounding small. What is it then? 10% chance of him owning his behavior and working things out with you? Sounds low.

Rather than spend my energy investing in that? I would invest in myself and my own healing. That gives me a better return on my investment.

I would also seek to live elsewhere to promote healing. Because living there sounds energy draining. I wouldn't want to drain myself by spending my energy on low odds things. I also wouldn't want to live where others are draining my energy.

I'm sorry you are dealing in this. :(

Galagirl
 
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Hello arquera,

Sorry you are going through such an awful time. I have to say, the prospects for repairing this triad aren't looking good. Continued therapy might help. But even with that, you need V and S to be willing to pitch in and I don't think they are. I don't know what words or actions (if any such exist) would get them to have a change of heart.

More info from V would help, like, what exactly does he want you to do differently? If he won't say, then you are in an impossible situation. Personally I think you should break from them completely; don't live with them and don't share a career path with them. But I suppose that route is out of the question for you.

The one good thing that might come out of all this is the therapy, so keep seeing that counselor if you can. If you'll keep us updated here on your situation, we'll still try to help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
not officially

They have both straight up said they do not a relationship with you.

It's over. Be strong and let them go.

Thanks for your imput, V. has stated he has dumped me, S. has stated she's still with me but unsure on wether to continue on with me in a triad. She goes from hot to cold almost on a daily basis.
 
thanks for the step by step breakdown

Hi Galagirl, thanks so much for the insight.
You will alone does not make a triad. It takes all 3 people's will, and all 3 people sharing the same goal. You do not have that here.
Both V. and S. have said to me that their ideal is a triad, but a happy one.
Basically it sounds like neither V or S take personal responsibility for their actions. I just don't see how a triad can work in a healthy way like that. :(
At the moment no, they do not take responsability, which has been devastating to me, although I understand S. is just 20 years old, therefore has no perspective and V. is bipolar (not diagnosed but we've believed this for years) so he's obsessed right now with the idea that everything is my fault. My hope lies in the therapy as after the first session with the therapist V. was transformed. It was when he admitted for the first time that his relationship with S. had taken time away from us and that he wanted to put it right. He suggested to spend 2h more a week with me for a time until we felt more balanced and he kissed me in a way he hadn't kissed me for 4 months, full of love, so I have faith in him gaining perspective from the therapist.
Neither V or S want to triad any more.
I think the change in perspective you could consider is letting go of the want to keep this triad flying. Because that kite just will not fly any more.
When the triad is balanced, it's the most amazing experience we've ever had, I believe we can balance it.

LONG VERSION
V doesn't want to be with you any more. He also is not asking for specific behaviors that therapy is supposed to help with. Just this vague "He has said that if there's a huge change in me there is a small possibility of getting back together."

  • I don't see where you have done any wrong behaviors.
  • He wanted space so he could develop (V+S) and you gave it.
  • He neglected (V+ you).
  • You made him aware in calm and upset ways. (To me when someone increases emotional intensity like that? They really want you to LISTEN to the message. )
    • Instead of listening and owning how HIS behavior contributes to the situation making? It seems like he wants you to shut up about it so he can feel "less pressure."
    • Less pressure to do what? Less pressure to own that he's neglecting you and less pressure to change that behavior?
As I mentioned before V. is bipolar, he has become fixated with the idea that I am the one at fault. I do have faults I want to change. I have been upset more than calm. Literally hysterical sometimes. The behavior V. would like me to change is that I'm accusatory, I blame others and am obsessed with the truth of every detail. For instance I've tended to get angry or jealous because S. has been jealous and V. not known about it.
Meanwhile S does not own how she contributes to the problems with her behavior.True.
She is pressuring V for a mono thing.
She hasn't pressured him for a mono thing, but for a "final decision", what she can't understand is that we've been together for 9 years. She was A CHILD 9 years ago. So I can't blame her for not understanding that this type of thing takes time.
  • She does not own that this contributes to the "pressure" V feels.
    True.
    She also thinks this problem is on the (V + you) layer.
    True, it's so hurtful, but at the same time, she's just 20. She has no perspective. But having said that she's come such a long way emotionally, there have been idyllic days when she has basked in V. and I's love for each other. Literally with tears of joy for our deep connection. (months ago of course now)
    • But S is not generous about making space for (V+you) time so you can work on problems No, as she's SO immersed in NRE and needy she can't let go
    • S see's you as competition for V's attention and acts out sometimes.
      • A lot
      • Result is all eyes on her, and (V+you) time not happening.Yes.

  • I don't see why it is YOUR last chance. Rather than everyone's last chance to triad here. For it to work, you all have to pull together. I'm not seeing that here. I see you all pulling in different directions:
    • You are willing to change behaviors, but V is not telling you specific behavior to change and work on in therapy. After a few sessions, he just wants to break up. So... I don't know that he entered therapy in good faith. Or it's that the therapist asked him to own his poor behavior and he doesn't want to.
    • V wants you to change -- but sounds like what he wants is for you just shut up and let him do whatever he wants. Without him having to actually SAY that out loud.
    • S wants you to go away.
    V. has told me specifically that it's my accusatory behavior and the "way I argue", he says it's often not the point of the argument but "the way I argue". And I think it's my obsession with the truth and finger-pointing. I want to change that.
    S. has said to me today that she's scared of having a mono relationship with V. as she's "unprepared for adult life" and it's responsabilities and I guess she's come to realise it's hard to be with someone that's bipolar. She loves me one day, is cold the next.

    You could take a break and REDUCE stress that way. So you can clear your head and think more clearly. Take a hotel stay, go stay with a friend, however it is you do it. Right now you seem to think it's all on YOU to "make it work" rather than each member of the triad doing their fair share.
    I know it's not all on me, It's trying to be the bigger person, you know? I've thought about leaving, but my stress is more the feeling of being kicked out of my own life, so I don't want to leave my home which is right next to our office and venue.
    When clear headed? You could CLARIFY.
    • List what behavior from V ADDS to the problems or TAKES AWAY from the problems. ADDS: Prioritizing S.'s needs, protecting S., giving away too much of himself too soon to S., complimenting S. so much that her ego is out of control. TAKES AWAY: his diplomacy and conflict solving between us (now completely eroded away), when he used to listen, when he used to have intimacy with me (spiritual and sexual).
    • List what behavior from S ADDS to the problems or TAKES AWAY from the problems. ADDS: jealousy (of V. and I's deep love connection, of our work status as co-directors), her megalomanic tendencies (both with V. and with work she is avid for more control, power, status), often disconsiderate of others feelings (with regards to time management...etc) TAKES AWAY: her energy and positivity, she used to be neutral in arguments and defend me if necessary from an objective point of view, her affection, her diplomacy and conflict solving between me and V. (not anymore, she's given up)
    • List what behavior from you ADDS to the problems or TAKES AWAY from the problems. ADDS: my irritable or shouting or accusatory tone in arguments, my jealousy of their NRE. TAKES AWAY: my nurturing loving nature, my generosity, my acute emotional perception, my wisdom.
      Then talk about it in therapy and ask if people are willing to own their stuff and work on their lists so things improve. And maybe change from a triad to a V with "V" as the only hinge. That gets you out of the "stuck."When you say "only hinge" do you mean that V. has a relationship with me and with S. but S. and I don't? I'm not sure what you mean.
      If they are NOT willing, you could end it. And REDUCE stress that way. You could just plain break up and rather than drag it out, move on to the healing space so you can start to feel better in time. You could work with the therapist on accepting it is over. That also gets you out of the "stuck."
      That's all I can think of right now.
      Painful as it might be, I think it would be better to let it end. You cannot make a healthy functioning triad when 2 out of 3 are sounding like they want to stop being in a triad. From a willingness POV, you don't have 3 people willing to triad here any more.
      From an energy POV? Whatever the "small percent chance" is -- it's sounding small. What is it then? 10% chance of him owning his behavior and working things out with you? Sounds low.
      Rather than spend my energy investing in that? I would invest in myself and my own healing. That gives me a better return on my investment.
      I would also seek to live elsewhere to promote healing. Because living there sounds energy draining. I wouldn't want to drain myself by spending my energy on low odds things. I also wouldn't want to live where others are draining my energy.
      I'm sorry you are dealing in this. :(

      Galagirl
    • I am beginning to accept the idea of maybe having to move on, although it's heart-wrentching, as I've built my carreer and my life path together with V. and it will be SO difficult to keep hold of that, especially if V.and S. were to continue together and me have to work with them every day. I love S. dearly, despite all her faults, but at the same time have a gut feeling that as she's so young she won't stick around for long. She's too exuberant. Too fixated on exploring the world. And I've always known, since I started dating V. that we were life companions.
 
life and carreer are combined, between rock and hard place

Hi Kevin, thanks for reaching back.

Hello arquera,

Sorry you are going through such an awful time. I have to say, the prospects for repairing this triad aren't looking good. Continued therapy might help. But even with that, you need V and S to be willing to pitch in and I don't think they are. I don't know what words or actions (if any such exist) would get them to have a change of heart.

More info from V would help, like, what exactly does he want you to do differently? If he won't say, then you are in an impossible situation. Personally I think you should break from them completely; don't live with them and don't share a career path with them. But I suppose that route is out of the question for you.
V. has stated that I need to be more positive, as have a tendency to be negative, to not shout at him or use an irritable tone of voice. But Victor is bipolar, not diagnosed, but we've been convinced for years, he's actually going to get checked this week. So for me he's just obsessed with the fact that this is my fault. But I have a lot of faith in the therapy as he was a changed person after the first visit.
Workwise, we've built this thing together and I have no other prospects. It's also only viable at the moment as we're living together, sharing costs, we're growing but it will take time to be more solid.


The one good thing that might come out of all this is the therapy, so keep seeing that counselor if you can. If you'll keep us updated here on your situation, we'll still try to help.
Thanks, I'm seeing the therapist on my own tomorrow to work on myself and Thursday with V. (just us instead of the triad) which I think will help. I feel like we just need some space to regroup.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
The therapy sounds more hopeful than I originally thought; that's good news.

Re (from arquera):
"She goes from hot to cold almost on a daily basis."

That's almost worse (than V), you have no way of knowing what you're dealing with there.

Is S willing to do anything specific to help save the relationship?
 
she's 20, we're 30 and 35

The therapy sounds more hopeful than I originally thought; that's good news.

Re (from arquera):


That's almost worse (than V), you have no way of knowing what you're dealing with there.

Is S willing to do anything specific to help save the relationship?

In my view the relationship worked when V. and I shared the experience of having a new girlfriend together. Not necessarily on a "primary, secondary" basis, but just more appropiate to our age/experience/needs. The three of us were full of energy, V. and I were strongly connected and S. felted loved and supported by both, she admired and loved us both more equally. I feel that since S. and V.'s love has deepened, or their NRE become more full-fledged, it's like S.'s innocence has dissapeared and her behavior become more manipulative/possesive/attention seeking towards V. and with me fluctuating between very intense sexual attraction and deep spiritual connection and then going cold if V. was in any way upset with me. S. herself has told me many times that she'd like to "regain her independance", that she feels very strongly for V. and wants to be with him at all times. She says this, and has said this to the therapist, but then not put it into practise. As with something specific, she has said that she is at her wit's end, that she's sick of "being in the middle" of our arguments and she no longer wants to put any effort in. But when she sees I'm upset she comforts me, she also said to me today that she has doubts of staying with V. if we break up because she would feel bad for "stealing him" from me... it's so painful I can't stand it, and so bloody annoying as well! It seems surreal to me that all this could have happened and could dissapear just as quickly.
 
I guess I'll hope that the therapy will play a key role in saving the situation.

As for S, I think that she should not get a free pass based on her age. You are her partners, not her babysitters.

She said she wanted to regain some of her independence; what specifically can she do to bring that about?
 
You are in deep poly hell. I am sorry.

PROBLEMS WITH V

Thank you for clarifying that V is something undiagnosed. (be it bipolar, borderline or whatever it might be.)

That certainly adds another layer of difficulty if he's been splitting her white (where she can do no wrong), splitting him white (where he can do no wrong) and splitting your black (where it's all your fault and all you do is wrong.) Does he intend to seek a dx?

It DOES get exhausting to live with an unmanaged person. You could decide you are done with that after dealing with it for 9 years -- especially if V does not intend to seek a dx and form a management plan. I wouldn't blame you for walking away. He does not ask for this condition (whatever it is) but it IS his responsibility to manage it. Just like someone doesn't ask for diabetes, but it IS their responsibility to mange it.

I get that you want to work on things like being accusatory... which is good. But are you being provoked by V? Sometimes trying to communicate with an unmanaged X person can yield frustrating conversation. I don't know if any of these might apply here.

http://outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro/

Have you talked with therapist about that? He can't complain that you behave accusatory if he's provoking it. You poke the bear with a stick? Can't be surprised the bear growls. YKWIM?

There's also the possibility that you could be calm talking to him but he's still going to FEEL accused when you ask him to take personal responsibility for things. So he might flip it around on you. Essentially accuse you of being accusatory. Start an argument about whether or not you are really being accusatory or not. If he successfully takes the spotlight OFF his behaviors and moves it on to your behaviors?

Result = he escapes having to talk about him taking responsibility again. He slides.

You might not enjoy "slippery fish" interactions like that. You might want to talk to therapist if you notice things like that happening. I am just guessing.

Even if broken up, if you guys choose to continue and roomies and co-workers, you and V will have to improve communication and boundaries.

PROBLEMS WITH S

I get that S is 20. But if you consider her old enough to date, exactly how old does she have to be before you start expecting her to behave like a responsible young adult? You could ask your therapist what is a reasonable expectation there. I think she's sliding an awful lot on "Oh, she's young." Or you are making excuses for her.

You have to keep dealing in messes she makes or adds to. That's a drain and a hefty "price of admission" to date her. If the return is no longer worth the price of admission? You could stop buying a ticket. No longer date her because there's not enough good times in the PRESENT day to make it worth your while.

CURRENT STATE

At this point in time it sounds like V broke up with you. The roles you are in his life are: his roomie and coworker at this point. And his metamour. (My GF S's other partner.)

At this point in time, S is your dating partner.

The triad is over. It used to be 3 V's stacked up. There is only the green one left now.

  • S + (you, the hinge) + V

    [*]S + (V, the hinge) + you

  • you + (s, the hinge) + V


The current format is a "V" shape thing.

S is not sure she wants to keep on with a V shape relationship. So it's a shaky "V" arrangement right now. Your choices there are either wait for her to decide what she wants. Or end it yourself to be free of a shaky V because it's stressy.

STRESS MANAGMENT

I've thought about leaving, but my stress is more the feeling of being kicked out of my own life, so I don't want to leave my home which is right next to our office and venue.

Is the goal to reduce your stress at this point then? :confused:

Me? Taking a few days off to clear my head and take a break from drama is ME choosing to take a break. I'm allowed to do that. That is me choosing to take a vacation for my own self care and stress reduction. It is not anyone "kicking me out of my life." I am making a decision IN my life to put REST as a top priority.

After you rest? You can come back to sorting the rest out.

  • Whether or not you are happy in a shaky "V" shape thing with S and your ex, V.

  • Whether or not you can continue to cohabitate with V when he is unmanaged bipolar is an issue you have to decide for yourself. Maybe you are tire dog living with him and the up and down and prefer to only work with him.

  • Whether or not you can continue to share work with V when he is unmanaged bipolar is also an issue you have to decide for yourself. It depends if he can leave it at the door or if he's also up and down in the work place.

Talk to your therapist to double check that you taking a break is a good thing at this time. Then finish thinking out what you want to be doing.

If things are not better with V as a roomie/coworker after X time, then maybe those roles ALSO have to change so you can gain more peace.

Right now you sound thick in the FOG and needing to REDUCE stressors all around you.

I dont know if this helps you any.

http://outofthefog.website

I get that things coming to a head/ending is rough going, and you have my sympathies. But the only way out is to work THROUGH the mess.

So I suggest you continue to work with therapist and seek what is healthiest for YOUR well being. But know you are allowed to take rest breaks. You don't have to plow through it all in one go.

Galagirl
 
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V. and I getting closer

Hi Galagirl and kdt26417, thanks for keeping this conversation going, I appreaciate this so much. Having insight from people that have some experience in poly is very helpful as this is 100% new to me.

I'll try and address everything you've both been saying and more infos:

Both V. and I will be getting a psychiatric evaluation next Wednesday 4th.
He because we've both suspected for years he's bipolar, me because over the last few months he's been obsessed with the idea that I'm borderline personality, so I'm going to do the test to remove that issue-if for any reason it turns out I have some disorder I'll have to accept it, but frankly... I don't think so.

Over the last week V. has been physically distant but friendly (as friends/room-mates) with both S. and I., he gave S. the odd peck or two but in general sleeping the three of us in separate beds and no sex. During those days I was able to be much more calm and we had fun together all 3 of us. On 3 occasions I had to console S. as she was very upset about this, and blaming me for it (!) On the 2nd occasion though I think she realised how hard it was for me being as I've been in this situation for weeks on end with 0 contact and having to see them all lovey-dovey in front of me. She ended up reciprocating the love and we ended up having a sexual moment and being very connected all that day. On the 3rd occasion though she caved in and managed to get V. to share the bed with her. The next morning I was upset by this as they woke up together and were touchy-feely again, I showed nothing of it but left the house and spent all day out with a friend. V. and S. spent the day together and had sex. That night I calmly explained to V. that the "less contact" method seemed to have worked and if we could continue down that road, because if I'm in pain it's going to be hard for me not to give him aggro. He agreed.

V. and I had a joint counseling session Thursday and the therapist says she sees much love, willingness to cooperate and definite hope of repairing our relationship (we coincided with blind drawings of what had united us 9 years ago and what joins us now, drawing the exact same picture of our brains merged together...etc)

The next morning S. took a flight home for 4 days. She said she wanted to relax and think of nothing, I suggested she clear her mind and then think and speak to her father, whom is a wise man and knows the situation (I'm hoping he'll give her perspective on what our different points in life are and what are the needs that surround them). During these 4 days there's been 0 contact, not even by phone, with either me or V. (at least I think).

V. and I have gotten closer without S. at home. On a scale from 1-10 we both agree that during the "we're all just friends week" our relationship went from 0 to a 5. Over these four days we've gone up to a 6.5 in my view and a 7 in V.'s view, so we've agreed we're at a 6.75. We've had some sexual moments and generally been relaxed, just hanging out, not super intimate, not super loving, but so much better! We want to work it back up to a 9 or 9.5 but both know we need time.

S. comes back tonight. V. brought up the fact that he's worried about how things are going to work when S. gets back. (me too!). We've agreed that it would be good to regrow both relationships in the same percentage (so have S. and V. also come together at a 6.75 level) and while all three of us are at home together at the moment we won't give individual attention to each other, but rather kiss/hug/interact as a triad to regain a sense of family, and then have a day asigned to each "couple" to keep that intimacy. Do you think this is good idea? We used to operate like this, with "date nights" but the rest of the day was "freedom", which ended in a predominance of V&S time, followed at a distance by S&me time and practically no V&me time.

V. and I have spoken a bit about his relationship with S. and he's stated that whenever they've talked he's said that he doesn't know whether they/we 3 will be together a few months/years or decades, that he's just living the moment. This is very V. He is at the same time incredibly future-oriented, planning and careful and at other times, or with certain situations/issues, the complete opposite, like now. I wish I could get the grounded and thoughtful V. back for a while so we can build this relationship healthily or at least both act in the way the situation requires: not neglect the long relationship, not throw so much wood on the fire of the new relationship, just more perspective and balance. Whenever I mention S.'s age and life-stage V. gets defensive, I think I'm a perceptive person and from what I've experienced and from things S. has said to me I think that all the relationships have been more balanced when S. was more innocent, had less responsability, was less dependant/desired to be depended upon by V., (V. has been using her to download his anger at me on) it was more a family thing and a shared adventure, with huge love but not possession. Does this sound right?How can I get both S. and V. on board if so?
 
Hi Galagirl, you've hit the nail on the head with the "frustrating conversations" with V.
I've had to deal with this so often over the years. He'll have a few weeks or a few months in which he'll be fixed on an idea and get extemely angry if I don't share the same view. At times we've just let things drop, but others I've had to give in and act convinced as to me it's better to concede on something (which is usually insignificant) than deal with circular conversations and fighting. At times though, V, has indeed convinced me of things which I thought the opposite of or didn't fully understand and I've been surprised and awed at his inteligence and wisdom and have grown from this type of experience. It's the type of thing that has always attracted me to him. His "outside the box" view of the world and his mind.
V. often states that I'm the one that starts the "frustrating conversations" and "am circular", perhaps it's both our fault.
It's so annoying though because on any given day, poof! that point we completely disagreed on we're now on the same page. Often V. recognises his mistakes at other times he just brushes them off, like I guess anyone would do. I really hope we can get a diagnosis this Wednesday on whether he is bipolar or whatever. I wonder though what will happen if he has nothing diagnosed? or is misdiagnosed? I've read that at times you need to visit several therapists and they can still undiagnose/misdiagnose. Then it'll just be me alone with these daily issues. I guess if I've managed so far I can go on.
 
I wonder though what will happen if he has nothing diagnosed? or is misdiagnosed? I've read that at times you need to visit several therapists and they can still undiagnose/misdiagnose. Then it'll just be me alone with these daily issues. I guess if I've managed so far I can go on.

Or you could not go on. Could end this relationship.

That's why I suggested you talking to the therapist on your own to see what you have energy for. Decide what YOU need to be healthy. And be willing to STOP participating in this relationship if you being healthy means you quit doing this LIKE THIS because you are running dry trying to prop him up. I think successful polyamory is due in part from having healthy players. If one of the players here (V) is not healthy? Does not relate well? He may not be ABLE to participate in a healthy way. So you could decide to skip doing unhealthy poly with him because doing it LIKE THIS is burning you out.

Both V. and I will be getting a psychiatric evaluation next Wednesday 4th. He because we've both suspected for years he's bipolar, me because over the last few months he's been obsessed with the idea that I'm borderline personality, so I'm going to do the test to remove that issue-if for any reason it turns out I have some disorder I'll have to accept it, but frankly... I don't think so

Have you told the therapist this psych evaluation is happening?

I could be wrong, but IS V projecting his mental health issues on to you? :confused: If so? If you get a clean bill of health? Don't be surprised if V comes out with "That evaluation doesn't count, you went to a quack. Get another one." Still painting you black, but in a longer roundabout way.

Tread carefully. Don't get enmeshed in his issues. Don't chase side trips that are basically more circle conversation. Just in a bigger, more expensive circle.

S. comes back tonight. V. brought up the fact that he's worried about how things are going to work when S. gets back. (me too!). We've agreed that it would be good to regrow both relationships in the same percentage (so have S. and V. also come together at a 6.75 level) and while all three of us are at home together at the moment we won't give individual attention to each other, but rather kiss/hug/interact as a triad to regain a sense of family, and then have a day asigned to each "couple" to keep that intimacy. Do you think this is good idea?

No. Because it sounds like you and V are deciding things while S is away, and S has no voice in how things are going to go. Like you and V expect her to just get with the program when she gets back. If the goal is working like a triad/family? (2 people making all the decisions for 3 people) is not (3 people in the triad making decisions for 3 people in the triad.)

No. Because this "keeping percentage the same" is weird. (V+S) is NOT the same people or the same dynamic as (V+ you.) You guys may not need the same. Maybe this visual helps.

And you monitoring how (V+S) is going doesn't solve how (V+you) is going. If (V+you) is going poorly because (V neglects you)? Him withholding time from (V+S) doesn't mean he's going to automatically put the time and energy into (V+you). He could go spend his time and energy bowling, or hiking and you STILL end up feeling neglected. Stop making this a competition with S for who gets V attention. Does V get off on that "pitting two against each other" dynamic? Like you two fighting over his attention like 2 dogs with a bone? :confused:

I think you could print the poly hell article and talk to your therapist individually about the issues on it you are experiencing and list what behaviors you want from V and what behaviors you want from S to help address these issues. Then in a group session, ask directly for what you need. Make rational and reasonable requests. And be open to hearing whatever V has on his list that are rational and reasonable requests. And be open to hearing whatever S has on her list that are rational and reasonable requests. See what lines up and what does not.

I think it's better to ask for what you need DIRECTLY. Could ask V to manage his time better so he spends X time a week with you, actually present. That is measurable. He either does the behavior or not. If he doesn't meet your behavior requests, accept he doesn't make the cut, and end it. Don't stay there doing the same ol' thing. Don't take crumbs. Stop participating in this. Try something new. Keep it simpler on you.

We used to operate like this, with "date nights" but the rest of the day was "freedom", which ended in a predominance of V&S time, followed at a distance by S&me time and practically no V&me time.

So if it did not work last time, why repeat it? :confused:

I wish I could get the grounded and thoughtful V. back for a while so we can build this relationship healthily or at least both act in the way the situation requires: not neglect the long relationship, not throw so much wood on the fire of the new relationship, just more perspective and balance.

Those are all behaviors you want from V. Could talk individually with therapist to get that thought writtten out along with other SPECIFIC BEHAVIORS you would like from V. Then ask V if he's willing to do those behaviors or not.

I'll be honest -- you seem to want healthy responses and healthy behaviors from V.

  • I'm not sure how that will fly when he sounds like he's been unmanaged bipolar or something for years.
  • I'm not sure how that will fly when he's been obsessed for the last few months that you are borderline and wants to blame you for things.
  • I'm not sure how that will fly when he dumped you recently and then seems to only want to get back together/cozy when S is away like you are the back up plan.

Your expectations of healthy thinking/behavior ASAP may not be realistic. You could talk to therapist if he ends up with a dx how to keep your expectations realistic with him. Not let him off the hook so he does whatever he pleases playing the "patient card"... but not expect instant 100% healthy thinking right off the bat either. If the goal is balance in the relationships? You have to make space for his learning to get his condition under management if you plan to stay.

Assess the odds. But if the odds are not looking good -- don't kid yourself. Assess with the therapist with eyes wide open. If it turns out to be lots of uphill battle and it is better for you NOT to stay or you have no willingness for uphill climb? Too much investment for too little return?

Don't stay. Relationships aren't supposed to be this hard.

If the goal you seek is more balance? You may also have to make space for a better balanced relationship with yourself -- if a part of you keeps chasing V around to you own detriment, you may have to check that.

I think that all the relationships have been more balanced when S. was more innocent, had less responsability, was less dependant/desired to be depended upon by V.

I could be wrong but that sentence almost comes across like "Things were easier when S was more childish, and wasn't bucking the system so much wanting to have a voice of her own at the grown up's table." I think you guys could treat S like an adult member of this triad and stop keeping her in this "childlike" role.

V. has been using her to download his anger at me on

Well, that behavior could stop. He could stop using her as a "target" for his feelings. He could stop "projecting" his issues on to you. He could learn to be healthier emotional management than that. Both you and S could learn to tell him NO when he tries to do things like that.

You could ask V to avoid triangulation. And talk to his therapist instead to work on his issues as they arise.

CONCLUSION

You have a lot of layers there. I don't know the extent of what you going on there -- but I urge you to tread carefully and thoughtfully. Clarify what your goals are in order for YOU to be healthier.

Then assess if being in this triad ADDS to you being healthier or TAKES AWAY from you being healthier.

Do not just keeping going with V from habit because that's what you always have done.

Don't get all caught up in V issues. Pay attention to YOU also.

Stop to check if this whole thing is still worth your while. For YOU and your well being. Stop to check if this dynamic is still healthy or not. For YOU and your well being.

Actually stop to assess here. Don't let your soft feelings for V prevent you from doing a clear assessment of (what you have on your hands) and (whether or not you have the willingness/ability/skills/energy to deal with it effectively or not.)

I don't know if any of these thoughts help you sort any -- but I hope you keep working with your therapist and arrive at what is best and healthiest for YOU.

Galagirl
 
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We've agreed that it would be good to regrow both relationships in the same percentage (so have S. and V. also come together at a 6.75 level) and while all three of us are at home together at the moment we won't give individual attention to each other, but rather kiss/hug/interact as a triad to regain a sense of family, and then have a day asigned to each "couple" to keep that intimacy.
My guess is, this won't work very long for reasons galagirl has statet. I think if S is in love and/or angry and you impose this "hold back to a number" wtf thing, she will explode soon. But could be a learning step for another week or so, if she agrees to give it a few days.
I think that all the relationships have been more balanced when S. was more innocent, had less responsability
It can be that she is not ready for all responsibilities. Let her tell you what is too much for her.
was less dependant/desired to be depended upon by V., (V. has been using her to download his anger at me on)
This sounds really scary.
So she depends on you now?
So he used her to process the bad between you+him, and you are surprised that she is feeling ambivalently at best towards you?
it was more a family thing and a shared adventure, with huge love but not possession.
Sounds nice. However, I have no idea what's behind the words.

Mental illnesses aren't managed fast, or even fully. Even if he gets meds it will take weeks to months to years to find the right ones for his mood swings. He won't change because of a diagnosis, a diagnosis is only kind of an orientation framework to say "Oh. Other people have similar experience and use this. Will that work for me too?"

Anyway, good luck :)
 
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Re (from arquera):
"I think that all the relationships have been more balanced when S was more innocent, had less responsibility, was less dependent/desired to be depended upon by V, it was more a family thing and a shared adventure, with huge love but not possession. Does this sound right? How can I get both S and V on board if so?"

It certainly sounds nice enough. But how would the three of you make that happen, even if S and V were on board? You seem to be saying, "If only things could be like they were in the past," but, how do we go back to the past? It seems that we can only move forward into the future.

I suppose to get them on board, you would ask them if they thought things were better in the past. From your description, all three of you were happier. Then if they agree to that part, ask them, "How can we get back to that?"

At least that's an initial idea.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
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