Advice needed

CuriousM

New member
I need help. My partner and I have been poly for 6 years, like all relationships we have up and downs. We are in a down. He has recently started a relationship with someone that is causing me stress. She is much younger, the same age as my daughter who has friends in common with her - the daughter is not his. He does not see age as an issue, but I do. He refuses to see why this causes me anxiety. I've tried to have compersion, but I just can't go there. He doesn't see my trying and failing as a reason to push this relationship aside. He has many other partners, all who I have no issue with whatsoever. What do I do? Do I let it go or stand my ground?
 
Just to clarify: Your husband has several lovers, one of whom is friends with his step daughter? How old are these young women? I ask because there's a huge difference between a 40 year old step daughter and a 19 year old step daughter (and associated circle of friends.)
 
Hi CuriousM,

Age in and of itself isn't necessarily an indicator of maturity, unless the age is totally inappropriate, but I assume we're not talking about anything like that.

So what exactly is it about this woman and/or her relationship with your partner that you find so difficult to deal with?

**********

- Is it the (presumably vast) age difference itself?

- The fact that she is a similar age to your daughter, so you feel it's somehow "ick" and wonder why or how your partner could even consider dating someone in this age range. i.e. Whether it is or not, YOU consider it too creepy or something. You can't understand what they'd have in common. Or you feel threatened by her youth because you're scared he may prefer her for superficial reasons?

- Is it the fact that your daughter and this woman have friends in common, and you fear them gossiping TO your daughter about your partner's personal business? i.e. This woman is on your "messy person" list, by association or extension. You fear their relationship may impact upon your reputation or your relationship with your daughter because of this.

- Something else about the woman in question that just rubs you up the wrong way, but you're focusing your objections on one or more of the above factors so you don't have to delve deeper into those reasons (?)

**********

Really think about the last one and try to get really honest with yourself. Do you just not like her as a person? Are you comparing yourself unfavourably to her in terms of looks, weight, sex appeal etc.? Do you feel your partner will get so caught up in NRE and, along with all his other partners/commitments, no longer have time for you?

I think the second factor (gossip, being too close to home etc.) is probably the most legitimate reason I can see for objecting, unless she is VERY young - i.e. barely legal. You don't give your partner's age, but I assume he's a good couple of decades older than her.

For some people, this really isn't a major stumbling block, depending on maturity levels of the people concerned, how much they have in common outside of the sexual connection alone... etc. Regardless, he ought to take your concerns seriously, and at least listen to the reasons behind your obvious discomfort (especially since it seems his plate is quite full as it is.)
 
Last edited:
Age in and of itself isn't necessarily an indicator of maturity
Age is a huge factor because women in their early 20s are in a very different phase of life than women in, say, their 40's. There is an enormous power differential between most very young adult women, new to being on their own, new to the world of adult relationships, nascent in knowing their own power - and much older men. For a woman in her 40s and 50s, the power differential is significantly reduced because the older woman has much more experience in life and has likely many more life lessons under her belt. If the woman here is barely out of her teens, I can understand why anyone would be uneasy about the liaison between her and this husband and would hold the man's judgement suspect. If the woman here is 40, then all of your good advice would apply. 20 year old women simply are not 40 or 50 year old women.
 
I am sorry you are struggling. If him dating someone your daughter's age icks you out, it icks you out. It's ok to be icked out. You don't have to be ok with EVERYTHING.

Are you out to your daughter or maybe not? Is that part of the problem if he's dating people from her circles?

If you are feeling like you hitting a limit because he already has X other partners that you try to get along ok with, and now here's this one who rubs you the wrong way and he doesn't acknowledge or see your pain?

You could decide if you want to keep going with a partner like that.

He doesn't see my trying and failing as a reason to push this relationship aside

He's right. He doesn't have to end things with her just because you have problems with it. It would be nice if he DID take more care -- before adding more partners, look out for existing partners better. Not picking out new existing partners that are a problem for his present partners. Trying to be more sympathetic or understanding or considerate if he's not being those things right now.

But the one who has to consider your trying and failing as a reason to let a relationship go is you. You are the one bumping up on a personal limit. And there is nothing wrong with having a limit for what is ok with you and what is not ok with you.

You could determine if this stuff is a deal breaker for you or not:

  • Picking out someone your daughter's age to date that while remote, runs in the same circles as daughter
  • Not seeing your pain
  • You possibly hitting your poly network saturation point. Like... X partners, ok. More than that, I'm starting to get the short end of the stick with time, care, attention, etc.

Only you can determine what you are and are not up for.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Age in and of itself isn't necessarily an indicator of maturity

Age is a huge factor because women in their early 20s are in a very different phase of life than women in, say, their 40's. There is an enormous power differential between most very young adult women, new to being on their own, new to the world of adult relationships, nascent in knowing their own power - and much older men. For a woman in her 40s and 50s, the power differential is significantly reduced because the older woman has much more experience in life and has likely many more life lessons under her belt. If the woman here is barely out of her teens, I can understand why anyone would be uneasy about the liaison between her and this husband and would hold the man's judgement suspect. If the woman here is 40, then all of your good advice would apply. 20 year old women simply are not 40 or 50 year old women.

Karen, while I do in fact AGREE with the essential premise of your argument/objection, I think you may have misunderstood my point or taken it somewhat out of context by leaving off the various disclaimers, below.

Age in and of itself isn't necessarily an indicator of maturity, unless the age is totally inappropriate, but I assume we're not talking about anything like that.

I think the second factor (gossip, being too close to home etc.) is probably the most legitimate reason I can see for objecting, unless she is VERY young - i.e. barely legal. You don't give your partner's age, but I assume he's a good couple of decades older than her.

For some people, this really isn't a major stumbling block, depending on maturity levels of the people concerned, how much they have in common outside of the sexual connection alone... etc. Regardless, he ought to take your concerns seriously, and at least listen to the reasons behind your obvious discomfort (especially since it seems his plate is quite full as it is.)

Yes, age or large age gaps can make a difference in MANY cases, although this all depends on the comparative age of the participants, as well as other factors.

Yes, I concur there is a HUGE maturity gap between an 18 or 19 year old (whether female or male) and a much older, say, 40 or 50 year old. In almost every case, this would be a bad idea simply because of the life experience and power differential, true.

However, this may change if the woman in question is 25 or 27 and the man 40 or 42, for example. Still a large gap on the surface, but not totally insurmountable or out of the question in many cases.

I myself was married at 25, a home owner and mother by 27... having been to college and worked in a number of jobs. My husband wasn't significantly older than me, but he had been my line manager at work (where we met) and we went on the have a largely happy 25 year marriage.

Who's to say that an educated, down to earth 26 year old isn't just as mature in many ways as a 46 year old male who feels the need to maintain a string of simultaneous relationships, including one with a much younger female, in order to feel vital, fulfilled and sexually desirable?

Basically, I don't feel the OP has given us enough information yet to be able to make a definitive call on the issue. But I think the daughter and new gf running in the same circles is potentially a big complication.
 
Hello CuriousM,

It sounds like your partner is unwilling to push aside his relationship with this very young woman. And it's not like you can force him to drop her, so then you have to make a decision about whether you can tolerate his actions. And if you can't, the only option that makes sense is to break up with him.

I don't know if this makes any difference, but what about the fact that this young woman is (probably) already emotionally involved? If she is, then she would be hurt by him breaking up with her. Maybe that tips the scales for you. If you would not want to be a part of somebody getting hurt. It certainly matters, though, if *you* are getting hurt. You have to be kind to yourself.

As for your partner, he already has many other partners, it's not like he needs one more. At least, that's my opinion. I hope the two of you can work something out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Stand your ground. Your daughter's friends network not being considered suitable metamor material is not an unreasonable stand.

It is also fine to break off with him. If he isn't willing to consider your distress in the relationship, he shouldn't be cluttering your intimate space.

All things apart, my golden rule is that if a partner doesn't care about you being hurt and knowingly does things that bring you distress - this is not love.

If he thinks your expectations are not reasonable, he can break off with you and find his own reasonable people. Being in a relationship with you AND causing you distress deliberately is taking you for granted.
 
Age is a huge factor because women in their early 20s are in a very different phase of life than women in, say, their 40's. There is an enormous power differential between most very young adult women, new to being on their own, new to the world of adult relationships, nascent in knowing their own power - and much older men. For a woman in her 40s and 50s, the power differential is significantly reduced because the older woman has much more experience in life and has likely many more life lessons under her belt. If the woman here is barely out of her teens, I can understand why anyone would be uneasy about the liaison between her and this husband and would hold the man's judgement suspect. If the woman here is 40, then all of your good advice would apply. 20 year old women simply are not 40 or 50 year old women.

So if he's attracted to her, she's attracted to him, and he's following what Dan Savage calls the "campsite rule," why is this man's judgement suspect?

In case you're not familiar, the campsite rule is the idea that when there is an age and power difference like this, it's not hinkey if the older partner isn't exploiting the power difference (i.e. he's her boss) and is leaving the person in better emotional condition than they found them by modeling mature relationship behaviors.

What I read into your response is an assumption that any 40 year old man dating any woman in her early 20s is necessarily exploiting this power differential and that it's always a bad situation for a the younger person. It's quite possible that I've misunderstood what you've said and if so, please clarify. I do agree that there are toxic older men (and older women) that do exploit these power differences however I disagree with your statement that anyone would be uneasy about the situation and also that the older man's judgement is suspect.

My take on these situations is quite a bit different. For example, several of my female partners were in situations like this when they were in their late teens or early 20s and they all described these relationships as very positive. In general they found the older partner to be more empathetic and emotionally supportive than men their own age as well as having someone that they felt safe exploring many facets of their sexuality with. They also all expressed that most of the men their own age demanded more commitment and enmeshment than they wanted whereas the older partners were likely to take them at face value when they said "I don't want anything serious right now." Likewise, when I was in my early 20's I had brief relationships with a few women 10-15 years my senior and I found them very positive- they were self-assured, good communicators, had well developed emotional intelligence, knew more about what they wanted, and in general, I learned a lot of positive things about relationships from them. You said that older women likely have had a few life lessons. How'd they learn them? Sadly in some cases it's through poor choices or being exploiting however others have been through making positive choices that are also opportunities for personal growth.
 
Do I let it go or stand my ground?

I'd say go the third way- examine why you're having so much anxiety and stress about this. While I agree with others that things often work best when our partners are empathetic to our anxiety, I also feel that it's fairly common for people to have to work through their own anxieties about any number of things when they are in poly situations. A common situation you'll read about on this board is someone having intense anxiety because their long time partner is head over heels in NRE with a new partner.

In my own practice of partnered ethical non-monogamy/poly I don't believe in telling a partner that they can't see someone. If the situation in question is impacting my life in a toxic way, I will say something like "I respect your right to continue the relationship as you wish however if xyz toxic impacts continue, I don't want to be in a relationship with you. Work on the toxic impacts and we'll be ok." In the end, we're all responsible for our own anxieties and how they impact our lives. While removing the source of the anxiety seems like an easy fix, it often leaves the underlying cause unresolved.

You say that age is the issue, so ask yourself, if she were equally older than your partner, would you have the same issue? If not, what's the difference?

However, there are some anxieties that I have that I'm ok not examining because they serve as a great warning buzzer, telling me "you are not ok with this for very solid reasons, so listen to the alarm." In other words, they tell me this an unacceptable price of admission for me to pay to be in the relationship. It's quite possible that this situation is one of those warning bells for you, and in that case, by all means, pay attention to that.

There is one other aspect of this situation that others have brought up- the messy person. These are people that due to having some other type of context and relationship in your life, have potential to be very messy for your partner to date. A good example might be your school aged children's teacher or a supervisor as both can have very messy consequences in the non-romantic portion of your life. From your post, it seems possible that this young woman falls into this category for you. If this is the case, maybe communicating that she's messy might be a way for him to understand your point of view a little better.

All this aside, I am sorry that you're feeling so much anxiety and stress about this as that's not usually an enjoyable place to be.
 
So if he's attracted to her, she's attracted to him, and he's following what Dan Savage calls the "campsite rule," why is this man's judgement suspect?

Out of all the 20 year olds in all the world, he has to choose a friend of his step daughter's? Please, I'm not buyin' the campsite rule for a minute here. Dan Savage's helpful advice aside, why does this older man have to pursue this particular much younger woman, knowingly adding stress to his partner, especially since he already has several others on the line as well? It's a dick move and it says everything about his judgement and his priorities.
 
Last edited:
First the OP said "friend network" which is something quite different than friend. She wasn't specific about what that meant so I assume it means somehow connected through social networking, which could mean anything from a direct connection to a very indirect connection. As an example, I tend to live in small towns (usually 5,000 or less people year round) so through online and offline social networking there's people that are in my "friend network" that I hardly even know beyond recognizing their face when I see them. Because there's such a small dating pool, if I date someone that lives locally, I'm also likely dating someone in this nebulous cloud of friends. People that have lived in my current town for awhile have a somewhat cynical view on this as they somewhat cynically say "you don't break up with someone, you just lose your turn." I don't like particularly like that saying however I've also noticed that it comes with a common understanding that the local dating pool is small so people handle these overlaps with kindness and understanding rather than judgement. Also, the primary industry in this town is tourism so on top of this small social network, people's lives frequently overlap professionally, which adds yet another layer. We're not really given enough information to figure out what the metamour's relationship to the daughter and in saying "friend network" the OP could have meant anything because that's different than friend.

Why he chooses this particular woman, I don't know. We've only been given one side of the story with limited details. She also didn't really go into detail about why it's stressful and causing anxiety, so we have to read into it. Would your answer be the same if she said "she's younger than I am and I'm threatened by that" vs "I think she's a messy person, it may leave daughter feeling uncomfortable, and it's possible that we may have unwelcome social consequences from this?"

Regarding knowingly adding stress to his partner, it's very common for people to come to these forums saying that their partner's NRE is causing them stress and anxiety. Is it a "dick move" for the partner in NRE to keep their relationship with the metamour? Or how about the married poly folk that find a new partner, become head over heels in NRE, and then their feelings towards their spouse shift away from romantic, which causes the spouse anxiety and stress? Is it a dick move for the partner with NRE to keep dating the new partner?

My point is that we weren't really given enough details to assume that the guy's judgement is lacking or that it's a dick move, and if we had more details, it would possibly change the answer. In my case if she said "I'm anxious because this is a messy person in my book" then, because I'm not a big fan of the "veto on metamours," I'd say communicate that this is hard boundary for her and that he's free to continue seeing her but it's not a price of admission she's willing to pay. If it's because she thinks the age difference makes it inappropriate, I'd ask why it is in this particular case. Is he taking advantage of her or is just an unquestioned bias? If it were a case of feeling threatened and insecure by her being younger, then I'd say question that insecurity, just like anyone insecure about something quality their metamour posesses that they don't.

When it comes down to it, I don't think someone dating a metamour that causes their partner to feel anxious is necessarily a sign of poor judgment. In fact it's something that we frequently read about in these forums in the posts of people struggling with their partner's NRE and the advice isn't usually to jump to conclusions that the metamour is being taken advantage of and that the OP's partner is exercising poor judgment by continuing to date that person.

Also, I want to make it clear I don't disagree that this may be a messy situation and also, I don't want to derail the thread. I just felt that your original post was based on a lot of assumptions that weren't really supported by the original post.
 
First the OP said "friend network"
Nope:
the same age as my daughter who has friends in common with her
You stretch to make it sound very nebulous & distant, when the OP has clearly said they were connected with one intermediary. I will enjoy your rationale.

We've only been given one side of the story with limited details. She also didn't really go into detail about why it's stressful and causing anxiety, so we have to read into it.
Hi!! Welcome to Polyamory.com!! You must be new around here, or you'd know that's true for like 99.999% of posts. :D

Would your answer be the same if she said "she's younger than I am and I'm threatened by that" vs "I think she's a messy person, it may leave daughter feeling uncomfortable, and it's possible that we may have unwelcome social consequences from this?"
What is it that you find reprehensible about #2? Unless the man is a credible saint AND has wide experience with multiple ongoing relationships, then (IME) I would expect that at some point he will be tempted to "fall overboard" & go all self-congratulatory at being SUCH a stud :)rolleyes:) particularly as his marriage is presently "in a down" & a mature person would be fixing THAT first rather than blithely piling on more obligations.
 
Nope:

You stretch to make it sound very nebulous & distant, when the OP has clearly said they were connected with one intermediary. I will enjoy your rationale.

You're absolutely correct that I misquoted the OP, though I don't think it's a stretch at all to say the significance of that connection is uncertain. I gave the example of dating where I live (a community of 6-8K people year round), nearly any local I could date, already has friends in common with me, my existing local partners and the other people in my life- friends, co-workers, other business relationships, and even my doctor. Nebulous is a great way to explain the multiple overlapping social connections in a small community that create a "friends in common" sphere that's relatively large but also rather dilute in meaning. It definitely changes what people consider a messy person.

In contrast, when I lived and worked in Los Angeles there was almost no overlap in these kind of relationships so a one intermediary relationship would have been more significant in meaning. You can call it friends in common, friends network, circle of friends, or really any of the terms folks use to describe relationships like this but what it means, in my experience anyhow, depends on where you live. Without knowing the context of it, friends in common doesn't necessarily point to poor judgement or exploitation. My initial response, and my follow up, was contesting the idea that the age, vaguely defined social relationship and power differential would lead anyone to impugn the guy's judgment. I'd want more information and the first couple of posts asked for it.


Hi!! Welcome to Polyamory.com!! You must be new around here, or you'd know that's true for like 99.999% of posts. :D

I appreciate the facetiousness and humor, but that gets to my point. The OP was somewhat vague, enough to not support the conclusion that the husband is exercising poor judgement or exploiting the power differential between him and the younger woman. What she did say was:

He does not see age as an issue, but I do.

We all have things that we see as "issues" however age is something that people have no control over, much like sex at birth, national origin, ethnicity, sexual preference, etc. So replace "age" with a word from one of those categories, say bisexuality, then how does the sentence read? What if the metamour was significantly older and instead having friends in common with the OP's daughter it was her mother that had friends in common? If she said she had an issue with age in that case, would his judgment be equally suspect?

What is it that you find reprehensible about #2?

Never said it was reprehensible, in fact was asking how the advice would differ if the OP said it was the former or the latter. One more time here: my main issue with some of the responses concluding that the guy has poor judgment. If the OP came back to tell us, "I told my husband that this is causing me anxiety because it has unwanted social consequences for both of us, it makes daughter very uncomfortable, and you can continue dating her but if you do, I don't want to continue a romantic relationship with you. He said he still doesn't see the problem..." then yeah, the dude is being a dick. If she came back and said "I just think it's wrong to date someone that much younger" then I don't think she's wrong for feeling that way but it also doesn't mean he's being a dick or using poor judgment. As I said earlier, age is something we don't have control over and as

Also, if you care, the reason I asked is I was also responding to the idea that someone is pulling a "dick move" by dating a metamour that causes their existing partner anxiety. I don't post much but I have been reading these forums and these blogs for years now and in that time, I've seen any number of posters that are struggling with anxiety, hurt, and insecurity because their partner is dating someone at all, messy or not.

So, a non-rhetorical question here, does continuing to date a metamour that brings anxiety to the existing partner necessarily mean someone is of suspect judgment or being deliberately hurtful? The most common advice I read here is for the person posting about this type of anxiety is that it's ok to be scared or icked out by something however we don't necessarily have to agree with who our partners date so maybe examine why they are feeling this way and decide if maybe this is a price of admission that they are willing to pay for being with someone.

Unless the man is a credible saint AND has wide experience with multiple ongoing relationships, then (IME) I would expect that at some point he will be tempted to "fall overboard" & go all self-congratulatory at being SUCH a stud :)rolleyes:) particularly as his marriage is presently "in a down" & a mature person would be fixing THAT first rather than blithely piling on more obligations.

Well, look at what the OP did say about her husband's experience managing multiple relationships:

He has many other partners, all who I have no issue with whatsoever.

I'm not defending the guy nor do I think he's a candidate for sainthood nor do I even necessarily agree that his dating choices are wise but for his partner to say this even as she's struggling with this particular metamour indicates that he's mostly doing something right as far as she's concerned. She did also say that they've had their ups/downs and that his choice in partner is the source of the current down. I'd agree with you that it's of questionable judgment if they were already having problems and then he added another relationship, but it seemed pretty clear that this relationship is the source stress.

Once again, I thought more information was needed before giving input and the first responses asked for more info but then someone said, paraphrasing here, that given the limited facts presented, nearly anyone would say his judgment is suspect. I disagree with that and laid out a case why.

Maybe this guy is an absolute dick, taking advantage of a younger woman's naivete. Maybe this guy couldn't help falling for someone younger and likewise, she couldn't help falling for him. It's really hard to say and that's why I had an issue questioning his judgment.
 
I tend to agree with you Refusnik, we need more information.
 
Refusnik, I enjoyed your posts. Very thoughtful and rational.

Personally I have dated men and women decades younger than myself. I don't tend to discriminate merely based on age. Plus, I never "exploit" a younger person. I appreciate them for what they are, and what they can bring to the table.

However, I would never date someone who was a friend, or friend of a friend, of one of my children, who were late teens/early 20s when I split from their father. It was bad enough when they found out I was interested in dating people around their age (early 20s, not teens)... I kept my dates apart from them so as not to make them uncomfortable.

For example: I met one young guy on OK Cupid; he was 21 to my 54. We had an enjoyable, if rather casual play partner type relationship for 2.5 years. At the same time I met my current female partner. She was 32 to my 54. Her maturity level was such that it was a great match. We are still together 9 years later, still deeply in love and very companionable.
 
Refusnik, I enjoyed your posts. Very thoughtful and rational.

Personally I have dated men and women decades younger than myself. I don't tend to discriminate merely based on age. Plus, I never "exploit" a younger person. I appreciate them for what they are, and what they can bring to the table.

However, I would never date someone who was a friend, or friend of a friend, of one of my children, who were late teens/early 20s when I split from their father. It was bad enough when they found out I was interested in dating people around their age (early 20s, not teens)... I kept my dates apart from them so as not to make them uncomfortable.

Thank you! And I'm with you, personally I wouldn't date someone that had a connection with one of my kids.
 
Back
Top