asking for advice on monogamous relationship - acceptable here?

When you've abused the trust of a lot of the women in a social circle you're still an active part of, those women talk to each other. I don't necessarily view that as bitchy gossip.

Any time I'm hearing the one sided review of how someone is a victim of some big-bad-wolf, I generally just roll my eyes. It's not a reliable account, it's actually the opposite. That's why I call it bitchy gossip. It's hurt feelings and sour grapes, even if some of the details are accurate - it's junk information and just shows that they want to hurt my new romantic interest.

Maybe it's a female social thing that I don't connect to. For some strange guy at a party to tell me the girl I'm dating is an un-trustworthy train-wreck is not a welcome conversation; not in the slightest.

The only thing it would do is make me realize that I am in a room that I don't belong in. I'm an adult, I don't have any interest in some "bro" telling me my new romantic interest is not worth keeping around because she'd "done him wrong".

In both cases, the women were drunk. A lot of these social gatherings tended toward dumb high school-style shenanigans. The ex-lover seemed to be unstable as well as an alcoholic (I'd briefly met her before, and never had positive interactions). This is when I started to question Peter's judgment about choosing friends & lovers. I started to doubt the validity of the good experiences we'd been sharing.

What I see is that this is a poisonous social circle that isn't going to do you any good. You seem like you have your head on your shoulders and I hope that you get yourself away from these... what sounds like "club kids"

As far as how that brought you around to doubting what you've already experienced with this guy is the big issue. For your view to crumble so rapidly and thoroughly due to a few drunken conversations with his angry ex-girlfriends tells me that you have some work to do on establishing and respecting intimacy.

That's not a dig, just that it's how it looks. A secure sense of self would likely not have walked out of that party thinking "I'm going to have to go to drastic measures to investigate this guy!"

Again, it shows a weakness in self. I was seeking information that would help me come to a decision, instead of trusting what I knew and felt. As you can read in my first post, the only result was that I eroded trust & made myself miserable. I know myself; I know this was a one-off event. I'm ashamed of my behavior.

Eh, being an adult is hard fucking work. When we get it right we deserve a high-five; when we get it wrong hopefully we deserve a second chance.

You clearly understand that snooping like that is WAY WAY WAY outside of how a healthy adult relates to other healthy adults. That probably means that you'll never do anything like that again because you don't want to experience this "shame" again. So good for you on that count.

Keep thinking, keep investigating who you are and what you want... you'll be fine. (and tell these chicks to keep their crap to themselves)
 
I know that if I cannot eliminate doubt in myself - founded or unfounded - I will need to end the relationship. I cannot continue to hold him hostage to his past, and I cannot violate my own boundaries by choosing to stay AND feeding the gnawing Mice of Doubt.

Before a few weeks ago, I was choosing to err on the side of trust. Then, we were chatting casually one evening, and he made a statement that contradicted a former statement -one which was made during a conversation in which I stressed honesty about a subject and asked point-blank for the truth. He chose to lie about it. When asked why, he admitted to being ashamed about the behavior & worried about my opinion of him.

I don't know whether the lie is a holdover from past ingrained behavior, or a glimpse into what I can expect from the relationship. My analytical brain is grinding away on this, with no satisfaction.

Narcissists lie because that is what they do. They lie casually, for a reason, or for no reason at all, since they just don't care. Like Trump. They lie, they get caught in lies, they don't care. There is video evidence of Trump saying one thing and him denying he did or said it, despite the unarguable evidence. They work around it by casually dismissing it and moving on to the next game.

Do you really want to be with a guy like this? Who would lie so casually when the truth was fine?

OK, maybe he's going to therapy. Maybe you could go no contact and let him "work on himself," if that is what he is doing. Get yourself out of the line of fire. I fear for your safety. Look at his former victims and beware.
 
That doesn't excuse Peter's behavior. But what DOES excuse it, in my opinion, is that he's owned it, talked openly about it, apologized for it (including to those he hurt), processed it, self-reflected on it, regretted it, etc. What more do you want him to do?

I know that reading his diary horrified you. But for me, what he wrote in his diary is actually evidence that he is now who he says he is. The fact that he was even keeping a journal at all shows that he was trying to be self-reflective at the time, was trying to understand why he was acting so shitty. What he wrote shows that he was aware that he was doing wrong-- "lying to her with a smile on my face," he wrote. He wrote it down because he felt guilty about it.

He also wrote that he could "feign innocence & claim I don't know why I lied, but we know the truth, don't we? I enjoy lying. It's an act of cruel power over another."

When we talked last night, I told him "you wrote about those women like you hated them."

"I didn't hate them," he said. "I just didn't give a shit."

Alternately, it's possible that his journal is the diary of a unrepentant narcissist who was bragging about his conquests--but you don't describe it that way. You say it's full of self-loathing. You don't say that it's full of self-delusions or unreliable narration--it sounds like the diary of someone who hates himself, knows he is acting like a total shit, and can't understand why he is acting like a total shit. His diary was maybe the first step on his journey toward self-awareness and NOT being a shit.

The truly awful people I have known, who used other people and never regretted it, are filled with self-delusions instead of self-awareness. They do not keep diaries or try to understand their own behavior. They never change.

If Peter DOES turn out to be dishonest and cheats on you, too, it's not going to be because he essentially wants non-monogamy. It will be because he didn't actually become self-aware or comfortable with intimacy or get over his self-loathing.

In my opinon, you're involved with a liar, who could be a sociopath. They are masters at pretending to feel normal feelings of love and caring, but it's all an act. Looking right into your eyes and lying to your face, so sweetly and convincingly? That's what they do.


RED FLAG! You heard multiple stories of his lying and cheating, and when you discussed it with Peter, you were not comforted. You were still alarmed.

It's a red flag that you're only 9 months into this, and have had MANY conversations about his former lies and cheating. Of course he's laid himself bare. He probably gets a thrill out of telling you how badly he treated others, and yet there you are, a sitting duck, trying to trust him.

Your experience of him as a great person is just too much in conflict with what you've heard about his immediate past. Just before you he was a lying slut. Now suddenly he's going to be all honest and true? Hmph.

MeeraReed and Magdlyn, I have been vacillating between these two points of view for the last several months. I honestly do not know which is more valid. Is he steadfast and true, or playing me too? It never occurred to me not to trust before the experience with my ex. Now, I want to make clear-eyed self-respecting decisions.

I do believe he's going to therapy, as I supported him through the process of choosing a counselor & was there when he made the appointment (not because I'm that far up his ass, simply because I have a laptop & home Internet access). He has honored his promises (I saw the STI test results, for example), I have no reason to suspect that he has not been where and done what he says he's done.

Also, another woman in the bike community - someone I'd briefly met a handful of times - walked up to me the other night (high, so: oversharing) and told me how happy she was that Peter was with me. She said she'd been his friend for a long time, and was of the opinion that he'd been searching for the kind of strong, happy, stable relationship he had with me. She was glad to see this positive change in him, and felt we were good together. This sweet and welcome affirmation - like the bitter anecdotes which preceded it - came out of nowhere. Strange, but comforting.

Magdlyn, is it your opinion that I'm being too trusting? Does MeeraReed's take on it seem equally valid?
 
IMO, it's a good thing that Peter is seeming to do some work on it. I just feel that it's best if both of you keep in mind that this is a work in progress, walking toward healing, & not at all a completion of the project.

Okay, maybe its cool that someone was willing to give you a "heads up" about potential risk. But now that's accomplished, & further "friendly" attempts are at best triangulation. If such things continue, my experience says you ought to consider the group (or at least some of its members) toxic to your well-being AND to Peter's growth.
 
Yes, thanks Meera.

mostlymono, you've been in a shitty situation before. You withdrew from dating despite a high libido, for a full year, because you were so decimated.

I think you're still firmly in the stage where Peter is idealising you. So it's hard to not believe him when he said he's oh so sorry for his "former" behavior.

And if you read the articles I posted for you from the Psychopath Free website, you'll see that "anyone with a pulse" will do for the narc to latch onto. So, a young drunk biker chick is just as good as a 40 year old responsible person like you. In fact, YOU make him look good, respectable, to the community.

6 booty calls from 6 women in your early relationship? Shows just how charming and sexy a narc can be. That is a helluva lot of female attention. He's a flatterer. And he's happy to use those booty calls as credentials to make you feel lucky to have snagged him away from the hoard.

My ex was so hot. He also had a hobby community. Women who didn't know him well would come up to him at events, as I was beside him, and practically throw their panties at his feet. It was like he was a rock star, I was his wife, and they were his fans or groupies. Ugh.
 
He also wrote that he could "feign innocence & claim I don't know why I lied, but we know the truth, don't we? I enjoy lying. It's an act of cruel power over another."

When we talked last night, I told him "you wrote about those women like you hated them."

"I didn't hate them," he said. "I just didn't give a shit."

Wow. How much more evidence do you need?

MeeraReed and Magdlyn, I have been vacillating between these two points of view for the last several months. I honestly do not know which is more valid. Is he steadfast and true, or playing me too? It never occurred to me not to trust before the experience with my ex. Now, I want to make clear-eyed self-respecting decisions.

If you're vacillating now, and have been for almost as long as you met him, why continue? Your gut is telling you you're in danger.
I do believe he's going to therapy, as I supported him through the process of choosing a counselor & was there when he made the appointment (not because I'm that far up his ass, simply because I have a laptop & home Internet access).

OK. Well not every narc meets every bit of criteria on the red flag lists. Usually narcs don't admit they are narcs. As far as I know, he has not admitted it... And a narc can lie to a counselor just as easily as he can lie to a "friend" or SO, because he "just doesn't give a shit."

He has honored his promises (I saw the STI test results, for example), I have no reason to suspect that he has not been where and done what he says he's done.

Well sure, it's no skin off his ass to get tested for STDs. He wants to get laid after all.
Also, another woman in the bike community - someone I'd briefly met a handful of times - walked up to me the other night (high, so: oversharing) and told me how happy she was that Peter was with me. She said she'd been his friend for a long time, and was of the opinion that he'd been searching for the kind of strong, happy, stable relationship he had with me. She was glad to see this positive change in him, and felt we were good together. This sweet and welcome affirmation - like the bitter anecdotes which preceded it - came out of nowhere. Strange, but comforting.

Perhaps he never saw her as good victim material, so she's only seen one of his masks. They put on different masks for different people.

Magdlyn, is it your opinion that I'm being too trusting? Does MeeraReed's take on it seem equally valid?

I think your gut is telling you something important. You're normally ethical but were so uneasy about his past and former behaviors, you snooped in his journal. You tell me if you're too trusting or not.
 
IMO, it's a good thing that Peter is seeming to do some work on it. I just feel that it's best if both of you keep in mind that this is a work in progress, walking toward healing, & not at all a completion of the project.

Okay, maybe its cool that someone was willing to give you a "heads up" about potential risk. But now that's accomplished, & further "friendly" attempts are at best triangulation. If such things continue, my experience says you ought to consider the group (or at least some of its members) toxic to your well-being AND to Peter's growth.

I agree with all of this. The bike community here is large. I've made my own decisions about who seems safe & healthy & who doesn't. There is a Venn diagram of friend overlap, and I've slowly befriended those in his circle who feel right to me.

That first heads-up was appreciated. The subsequent situations with "Alyssa," his ex-lover, were unwelcome. At first, he said he missed her friendship. I expressed my concern about his choice to associate with her, but he's an adult & I'm not going to tell him who he's "allowed" to spend time with. He changed his mind after she was banned from parties at a mutual (sane! stable!) friend's house because she could not leave Peter alone & was acting inappropriately.

I questioned his social circle, at first, and came to the conclusion that he gained something of value from those friends. I didn't need to understand it. It's my opinion that he deeply desired & needed the validation of acceptance. That's a powerful draw for someone who hasn't felt much of it in his life. As time goes on, he's pulled away from behaviors that aren't serving him (excessive drinking, unethical slutting around), and has started to form stronger bonds with people who support healthier choices.

This change was brand spanking new when I came along. I refuse to be cast as his savior, but I will always be supportive of positive change. My own life needs tending and support, and I can't let myself fall into the trap of viewing his as a project. He's his own damn project. As you say, he's walking toward healing.
 
Maybe it's a female social thing that I don't connect to. For some strange guy at a party to tell me the girl I'm dating is an un-trustworthy train-wreck is not a welcome conversation; not in the slightest.

The only thing it would do is make me realize that I am in a room that I don't belong in. I'm an adult, I don't have any interest in some "bro" telling me my new romantic interest is not worth keeping around because she'd "done him wrong".

To some extent, I agree with this. Gossip's not sexy or welcome. However, in the bike community, there are smaller fringe groups who are a) young b) poor c) often drinking heavily or using drugs and d) mistrustful of the police. There is no leader or authority in those groups; they self-police. There are a lot of people who show up to events who are, to some extent, outside of "normal" society. Also, women who've experienced sexual assault or rape are unlikely to share or be believed, especially when those situations involve alcohol, or when there's been prior consent. In recent years, it came to light that there was a local bike scene guy who'd been preying on & sexually assaulting vulnerable young women. I knew him; everyone knew him. I didn't like or trust him, but I'd never heard these stories until one woman called him out publicly - then, ten to twelve other women stepped forward to say "me too." Many people still chose not to believe them.

The story above has nothing to do with Peter. But it does show how and why women warn other women. I listened to what seemed important, and discarded the rest.
 
Also, women who've experienced sexual assault or rape are unlikely to share or be believed, especially when those situations involve alcohol, or when there's been prior consent. In recent years, it came to light that there was a local bike scene guy who'd been preying on & sexually assaulting vulnerable young women. I knew him; everyone knew him. I didn't like or trust him, but I'd never heard these stories until one woman called him out publicly - then, ten to twelve other women stepped forward to say "me too." Many people still chose not to believe them.

The story above has nothing to do with Peter. But it does show how and why women warn other women. I listened to what seemed important, and discarded the rest.

That's conflating the importance of discussing sexual assault with the importance of discussing someone being an insensitive jerk. Those are two VERY different things and I don't think using sexual assault topics as an excuse for gossip about "relationship nonsense" is a great idea. It is lowering the importance of taking sexual assault seriously.

I take sexual assault seriously, I don't take personal accounts of some "bad guy" being an emotional 14 year old seriously.
 
Hi mostlymonogamish,

I am tending to trust your partner, I think it's a hopeful sign that he's been so frank with you about his past. I am willing to see his present-day infractions as relics of his past habits which die hard. I could be wrong which is why it's a good idea to take precautions. But for the most part it seems okay to remain with him for the moment.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Wow. How much more evidence do you need?

If you're vacillating now, and have been for almost as long as you met him, why continue? Your gut is telling you you're in danger.

I think your gut is telling you something important. You're normally ethical but were so uneasy about his past and former behaviors, you snooped in his journal. You tell me if you're too trusting or not.

I've never dated a narcissist, but I'm familiar with the signs. It is indeed why I acted unethically by snooping. The lack of remorse freaked me the fuck out. But there are also words of regret in there that he wrote about his ex-wife, about her warm & loving nature & his emotional black hole that led to their demise. There are words about wanting to find an equal to love & care for, about wanting to belong, about searching for a genuine connection. Those words reflect the man I know. He DID express remorse to me about his former actions. I'm pretty sure the "didn't give a shit" was in the moment, and the wanting to change came later, from realization of the hurt he caused.

When we first got together, and I asked him why commit to me, when it seemed as though he was having a good time with ALL the ladies, he said, "I'm tired of doing that. I just want a person who's my person, and you feel right to me."

We've solved other minor conflicts with calm, love, and grace. He's made time for my concerns, never downplayed them, never made me feel crazy for asking. On the contrary, he's expressed understanding, as his history is "so shitty, and so recent." I hold him accountable, but I don't support him when he does negative self-talk, and he's never devalued me or dismissed me. When we've had a conflict, we talk about how to change the outcome in the future, and the behavior DOES change. He's more easy-going with me, but has not been afraid to speak up about my behavior when he's needed a change. So, I don't see some of the other warning signs that one might expect from a narcissist.

The time we spend together is kind, warm, loving, and respectful. We've hosted parties, cook together most nights, plan as a team, take solo time to feed friendships & selves, support each others' endeavors. We travel well together. He enthusiastically introduces me as his partner, tells me each day that he chooses me/us, and has purchased a plane ticket for me to meet his family. The other night, he shyly showed me a list of ideas he'd had for a bike wedding, while stating he knew that would be a long time off, but it was sweet to daydream about. At the same time, he's not pushing for cohabitation or riding the escalator too quickly (I own my home; he has the most to lose by moving, something we both acknowledge). The pace of our relationship doesn't feel "off." It's still relatively new.

If anything, I feel I've had to encourage him to take more space for himself. There is a certain unexamined quality to his life; he is both selfish and a "pleaser," wanting to give others what they need, even if he shrinks himself in the process. In his actual relationships (not hookups), he's fallen into the role of caretaker, which is both familiar and resentful. He's repeatedly expressed how refreshing it is that I don't "need" him. This is his work to focus on, not mine to change in him.

I know I'm presenting two diametrically opposed viewpoints. My purpose in posting was to get an impartial read on the situation. I knew we couldn't go on together... with suspicious minds. ;) And I also wanted to make a smart choice.
I will NOT ignore any further signs, nor can I choose this relationship & act with continual mistrust. For now, I choose to make a calculated risk and believe that these are the actions of a human being struggling to find the proper path, rather than the actions of an unrepentant narcissist. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it & walk away.
 
That's conflating the importance of discussing sexual assault with the importance of discussing someone being an insensitive jerk. Those are two VERY different things and I don't think using sexual assault topics as an excuse for gossip about "relationship nonsense" is a great idea. It is lowering the importance of taking sexual assault seriously.

I take sexual assault seriously, I don't take personal accounts of some "bad guy" being an emotional 14 year old seriously.

Fair enough. It's clear that she had motivations beyond altruism. But it is why I listened in the first place. I've never experienced being warned about a person beyond "hey, that guy over there is creepy and disrespectful." It happened when we were newly minted, and I may have given it too much weight.
 
Mostly, it sounds like you are thinking with your head and not just with your heart. I dislike the idea of ascribing a pathologic disorder to a stranger based on third hand anecdotal evidence, by those who aren't professionally trained.

My father always told me that, when he meets someone new, the trust level starts at zero, and goes up or down from there based on their actions. You are being careful but hopeful.

People CAN change. I used to be a remorseless cheater, only interested in immediate gratification. However, I didn't start to do the hard work on myself because I found the "right" man; I did it because I hated myself and saw a lonely future for myself because I destroyed all my relationships so thoughtlessly. As long as you realize that you can never be the only woman in the world "special" enough to change him, it has to be because he wants to change HIMSELF, you are looking at the situation logically.

He could be the most honest, trustworthy guy in the world and you could still wind up hurt for a myriad of reasons. Any relationship can lead to pain. Just keep your eyes open.
 
People CAN change. I used to be a remorseless cheater, only interested in immediate gratification. However, I didn't start to do the hard work on myself because I found the "right" man; I did it because I hated myself and saw a lonely future for myself because I destroyed all my relationships so thoughtlessly. As long as you realize that you can never be the only woman in the world "special" enough to change him, it has to be because he wants to change HIMSELF, you are looking at the situation logically.
Yes.

People change because the pain of continuing on outweighs choosing something fearfully new. People do not change because they have all of a sudden met the "right" person. Whether Peter does or doesn't fall into any diagnosis category, he no doubt has a lengthy and recent past with women that is extraordinarily hurtful and soulless. Just because he's gone to a few therapy sessions doesn't mean that he has done hard work on himself. Real, deep, lasting, soul searching change comes from real, deep, lasting, soul searching work and from everything you say, MM, he has done little of this.



For now, I choose to make a calculated risk and believe that these are the actions of a human being struggling to find the proper path, rather than the actions of an unrepentant narcissist. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it & walk away.
This sounds well thought through and no doubt sincere, but from everything you've written here, walking away will be an enormous challenge for you, MM. You are really drawn to Peter, super invested, compelled to see parts of him that others can't see. You're attracted to not only him, but to something that seems to be calling you - a siren's song, if you will. Despite your declaration, I don't have the impression that you'll come to a stable resolution on this, nor be able to just walk away.
 
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Real, deep, lasting, soul searching change comes from real, deep, lasting, soul searching work and from everything you say, MM, he has done little of this.

You're attracted to not only him, but to something that seems to be calling you - a siren's song, if you will. Despite your declaration, I don't have the impression that you'll come to a stable resolution on this, nor be able to just walk away.

You're correct. He has only scratched the surface of the work that needs to be done. When we chatted the other night, he said he understood what parolees must feel like - they'd committed a crime, done their time, but were always under suspicion. (Yes, I recognize that it's an inappropriate metaphor which focuses on punishment, rather than change.) "No," I said. "You're doing your time now, and I'm doing it with you."

Karen, you're right in stating that there's a draw for me. I don't deny that I crave a solid, stable, long-term relationship. I'm not trying to shoehorn him into this role, either - he has affirmed on multiple occasions that this is also what he wants. But I don't want to partner with the wrong person (or the right person at the wrong time). I would much rather be alone than in a volatile relationship.

My issue is this: I have valid concerns about his past, and the work that he needs to do. There are no illusions about changing him through the powers of my magical vagina or One True Love. Though he has stepped on the path to change, I am concerned that I am partnering with him too soon. My concerns are valid, and can't be glossed over with love. On my end, I'm conscious of putting a limit on worrying - I have to be able to relax & focus on my own work (both practical and emotional). This cannot be the focus of our partnership. I've spent too much effort in establishing a grounded, balanced self; however important, I won't allow a relationship to shift my equilibrium.

On the flip side, he has never, not once, exhibited these toxic habits with me. He values me & treats me with love, kindness, and respect. He doesn't meet every one of my needs, but no one partner can, and we don't expect that of each other. I love this funny, sweet, dorky musical queerdo nerd. In most ways, we are both having the relationship that we have been wanting to have. The reluctance you correctly identify in me is a reluctance to jettison something valuable based on fear of what MIGHT happen (rather than anything that HAS happened). How much weight do I give the past, and how much to the present?


Mostly, it sounds like you are thinking with your head and not just with your heart.

...You are being careful but hopeful.

People CAN change. I used to be a remorseless cheater, only interested in immediate gratification. However, I didn't start to do the hard work on myself because I found the "right" man; I did it because I hated myself and saw a lonely future for myself because I destroyed all my relationships so thoughtlessly. As long as you realize that you can never be the only woman in the world "special" enough to change him, it has to be because he wants to change HIMSELF, you are looking at the situation logically.

...Just keep your eyes open.

Thank you for the input. I am definitely a "research before committing" sort of person, with relationships and new boots alike. ;) Hard truths over fine lies, always.

What did your hard work look like? Was it self-directed, or done with the assistance of a competent counselor?
 
What did your hard work look like? Was it self-directed, or done with the assistance of a competent counselor?

I just realized that this question was for PPG, but oh well, I answered it. The thing is, any kind of significant change takes quite a while and huge commitment.

I've been in the process of dealing with some big time abandonment issues for three and a half years now. I was never an ass in relationships, but I carried a lot of fear that was hard for anyone to see because I don't present as socially fearful at all. But I felt it in love relationships, especially. I got married to find sanctuary from this overwhelming fear, realized it 15 years in and now we've separated as romantic partners. He's happy with his mono GF and I'm dealing with my fears. I have resources for my own everyday wellness (meditation, positive lecture listening, yoga,) I am very active in Al-Anon (a program of self-reflection and wellness, it's not about specifically dealing with alcoholics,) have regular contact with my sponsor and I see an enormously helpful therapist once a week.

The kind of extremely hurtful behavior you describe is always driven by desperate attempts to mitigate pain. Deep pain. Nobody racks up injured women the way Peter has because it's fulfilling, but because he is in tremendous pain and perhaps doesn't even recognize how badly. He seems to be genuine in his love for you, but his pain is still very present and although he recognizes that he wants to change, he hasn't developed any new strategies or practices to take the place of his go-to coping mechanisms. Truly, he's like an alcoholic but uses women (and all of the ensuing drama) to anesthetize himself from what's going on inside. More importantly to recognize: You're attracted to this. The answers here aren't only for him to do some major work, but for you to recognize what's going on for yourself. Why are you drawn to this situation and why can't you walk away? You don't have to answer, but consider why this extremely troubled man is so very attractive to you.
 
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Mostly, it takes EXTENSIVE, difficult work guided by a professional. I actually had to go to a few before the "Ah-ha!" moment. From my early 20's, counselors just said I was depressed and a GP would prescribe anti-depressants. While that kept me from being completely miserable, I still decided the best way to end my first marriage was to screw my friend's husband. Not classy.

Then I had a counselor tell me I had PTSD from my childhood and was acting out. The line of counseling that went with that helped in some areas of my life. So, with some Daddy issues worked out, I cheated on my SECOND husband more than once. Oops.

A psychiatrist finally pinpointed the diagnosis of bi-polar. More counseling, two years of medication adjustments, and I finally figured out that, no matter who I fucked, it wasn't going to fill the gaping hole inside myself. I am now in a boring, healthy marriage with a third husband. I am grateful I no longer dislike who I am. I still stumble, but I have learned the tools to keep from falling.

If your boyfriend thinks that a few sessions of talk therapy, or studying a self-help book are going to solve his issues, he's wrong and you should just walk away now. It's going to be very difficult, and progress won't be linear.

Make it very clear what you are and are not willing to tolerate. And stick to it.
 
Hiya,

Karen is saying everything I want to say, and saying it very eloquently. The way Peter displays love as an adult prior to meeting you, is by any definition unhealthy and a psychologist may hazard a guess that it reflects how he learnt to love as a child.

Others have mentioned that narcicissm accounts for many traits of Peter's that you've described. I tend to agree with this, but borderline personality may be a runner-up. I feel narcissist fits better but... well, I'm no psychologist.

He sounds repentant, but that can be hard to tell from our position over the internet and I hear you say it may also be surprisingly hard for you to tell. Additionally, he may be repentant now but may slip into his old ways as the NRE fades. To my knowledge, he hasn't enjoyed a long lasting love apart from a difficult marriage, but only experienced NRE. Does he know that "growing in love" is going to feel nothing like "falling in love?" Is the distinction even clear to him? Will he still have the insight to know it's love he feels for you even if he has the extreme hots for another woman, 1 year or 10 years down the track? Will he feel open enough to share this with you or will he feel he is being judged? Old habits die hard, and I don't expect a man like Peter to be able to kick these old habits without a lot of introspection.

A lot of this thread has been about Peter, but something early on made me think about you. I'm glad Karen asked, "What is it that draws you to this troubled man?" I'll ask something similar, "Are you generally a giver in life, where you do things or give to others because generosity feels right to you or makes you feel good about yourself?" I don't get the sense that this is you, but if it does describe you, then a question you may find worth asking is why you feel love is contingent on generosity and what childhood factors or past lovers may have led you to feel this way? In essence, why are you drawn to love a sick man? Yes he's repentant, but he's still ill. Do you love him enough after 9 months to be willing to go through this journey with him, knowing that a relapse is possible? I ask the question kindly but the words I type somehow don't show the kindness I know I'm feeling in my heart as I type it, with apologies.

Finally, I wonder if Peter is the sort who might turn to a book to understand why he does the things he does. He's not unique. I'm sure there are many books written by people who have started out a playa like him who left that lifestyle behind, happily. If you fear he will have an affair based on his past experiences, there are many affair recovery books that can "affair-proof" your relationship, so to speak. "Not just friends" by Shirley glass is one that I would recommend. Then again, he may not be a 'book' kind of person. I dunno. Just thought it might help.

I hope Peter does become a better man, but I also hope he doesn't hurt you in the process of doing so.

With kind thoughts,
Shaya
 
Maybe it's a female social thing that I don't connect to. For some strange guy at a party to tell me the girl I'm dating is an un-trustworthy train-wreck is not a welcome conversation; not in the slightest.
Yes, it often is "a female social thing". Are you familiar with the concept of The missing stair in a social group? Everyone knows about them, but they're just part of the scenery. The only warning a newcomer gets is a discrete warning from someone 'in the know".
Have you ever been in a house that had something just egregiously wrong with it? Something massively unsafe and uncomfortable and against code, but everyone in the house had been there a long time and was used to it? "Oh yeah, I almost forgot to tell you, there's a missing step on the unlit staircase with no railings. But it's okay because we all just remember to jump over it."

Some people are like that missing stair.

When I posted about a rapist in a community I belonged to, although I gave almost no details about the guy except "he's a rapist," I immediately got several emails from other members of that community saying "oh, you must mean X." Everyone knew who he was! Tons of people, including several in the leadership, instantly knew who I meant. The reaction wasn't "there's a rapist among us!?!" but "oh hey, I bet you're talking about our local rapist." Several of them expressed regret that I hadn't been warned about him beforehand, because they tried to discreetly tell new people about this guy. Others talked about how they tried to make sure there was someone keeping an eye on him at parties, because he was fine so long as someone remembered to assign him a Rape Babysitter.
 
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Again, I'm not sure why we are labeling someone with a pathology, when we are no experts, and we don't even know the man? I don't think that should even be the main focus; the OP is just asking if his past behavior is an absolute guarantee that he will continue this behavior. She didn't ask, "Do you think my boyfriend in a narcissist? Do you think he has borderline personality disorder?"

Clearly, there have been major issues with him in the past. NONE of us are in a position to determine exactly what is "wrong" with him. I'm not saying that those behaviors won't rear their ugly heads in the future; I'm just trying to say that people can and do change, if they are willing to do the work.

I have been on these boards for five years. The only thing that really bugs me here is that some people are quick to slap a label on someone, based only on a poster's narrative, and call it a day. This is irresponsible.
 
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