Compersion and loneliness

In direct conflict with each other, generally.
I find it difficult to feel good for my partner out having fun while I'm feeling very much isolated and alone.
Maybe if that wasn't the only way things go aside from time together at home, it'd be easier. I like to think so, anyway.

I can't see this applying as easily to women, unless they're more picky than they are lonely, and though I'm basically ten years deep into my cognitive dissonance regarding my own gender, I guess I'm stuck with the male perspective.

How do you deal with this? It sucks being the only one not having fun outside home.
Especially when it just looks like an inescapable loop.
I've got nearly 50 years of life expectancy left, and I neither want to live like this nor alone without my long term relationship either.
 
You give yourself only two impossibly intolerable alternatives, compersion or loneliness, when in fact there is vast territory between them. Who told you that compersion is mandatory? You're miserable enough to want to castrate yourself, so obviously this kind of extremist thinking isn't working for you. I'm gonna guess that "can't use it enough to keep it happy" (below) has much more to do with your lack of emotional fulfillment than your libido level.


From your intro thread:
I'm renewing my search for sex drive suppressants. Can't use it often enough to keep it happy, super tired of dealing with it and all its various side effects on mood and outlook on life... Want it gone. Preferably gone completely and not reduced. And yes, if I were in the appropriate income bracket, I would totally have had surgery by now to make this stop permanently.
 
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You give yourself only two impossibly intolerable alternatives, compersion or loneliness, when in fact there is vast territory between them. Who told you that compersion is mandatory? You're miserable enough to want to castrate yourself, so obviously this kind of extremist thinking isn't working for you. I'm gonna guess that "can't use it enough to keep it happy" (below) has much more to do with your lack of emotional fulfillment than your libido level.


From your intro thread:

I get to experience both extreme emotional states at once. It's loads of fun. I don't choose either of them, but there they are anyway.
Emotional fulfillment? That's at 100% before the open relationship gets kicked in every time. Then all of a sudden I feel deprived of what I'm clearly missing out on.
The castration thing, has to do with the withdrawn symptoms from sex being more and more annoying over time, peaking at about 30 days without, When the withdrawal is at the top of the mind, due to feeling an inability to use more than self-fulfillment techniques to abate it at all, the concept of just removing the whole subsystem is extremely attractive compared to living with it.
 
As much as it may suck to feel like you're missing out, being left out, and/or jealous of your partner's outside "fun", wishing to completely eliminate your sex drive (permanently, no less) seems like an extreme reaction.

This tells me that your long-term partner either doesn't know how badly you're feeling, or your sex life with her is lacking in some major way!

IF you were in a psychologically "centred" place, personally, AND ALSO being satisfied - physically AND emotionally - by your primary relationship... you may ideally still WANT other sex partners, however you probably wouldn't NEED them to the degree that the LACK of such opportunities would completely discombobulate you the way it appears to be doing.

At the moment, you're allowing the perceived lack of opportunities to explore sex with other women to negatively impact every aspect of your life, including your current relationship and self esteem.

I haven't re-read your intro thread, so I'm not sure how many other partners your SO has... but I'm wondering if there is some way she would be willing to curtail (not stop altogether) her other activities - maybe refuse to take on any new partners right now or limit how many days/hours she spends outside the home, leaving you alone and miserable. This, of course, is ultimately not HER responsibility or work to do, though it may be a workable temporary measure.

In the meantime, it seems you have a lot of self reflection to do:
- If you can't see an end to this imbalanced and unfulfilling situation, you may choose to rethink whether or not polyamory is for you.
- If your current partner is more interested in doing her own thing, no matter how it impacts your emotional well-being, you may need to re-assess whether THIS relationship is working out for you.
- You may choose to change aspects of your OWN life (your working environment, social groups, living arrangements, location) to allow yourself more opportunity to meet likeminded people.
- You may need to devote more time to therapy, and to working on your own self esteem, social/relational skills and attitude.
- Develop hobbies, interests and join groups (other than dating sites or poly groups) that maximise your chances of meeting likeminded individuals.
 
Hi SomeDudeLearning,

How much time does your partner spend with you? Whatever amount it is, it doesn't seem to be meeting your needs. Your options seem to be, ask her for more of her time, search for people to date when she's not with you, break up with her (and then perhaps search for a monogamous partner), leave things as they are which so far is making you miserable, or start feeling better without changing anything. I don't know of any way to accomplish that last option, but that doesn't mean a way doesn't exist.

Or some combination of the above.

If you want to search for someone to date, here are some possible resources:

... and

"As for where to meet poly people, if by some chance you are interested in anything alternative like Renaissance fairs, goth culture, sci-fi conventions, indie music, bdsm, or any small fringe group, you will be more likely to meet people who have at least heard of poly and are accepting of it."
-- SpaceHippieGeek, Polyamorous Percolations

Even if it's not an "alternative" type group, if there's a club or something in your area that does something you're interested in, you can always join that group and it just gives you a way to get out there and meet people. If you meet someone on a platonic level and get to talking about poly, then they can decide how they feel about it without any "pressure to agree." Then if they do decide poly doesn't bother them too much, and some kind of romantic connection subsequently develops, you'll already have "had the poly conversation" with them.

Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I read your other thread. And now this one. I am having a hard time following.

Are you saying this? I quote just to visually block it off. You correct me if I get anything wrong, ok?

For the last 10 years, my current partner and I have had a poor sex life. I want to share sex, but because of X, we don't.

We are open/poly. I find it hard to feel happy for my partner when she goes out to have fun with other people while I am at home feeling isolated and alone.

My life is (time together at home, with no sex) or (she goes out and I'm at home, with no sex).

I think this is a guy thing -- that women trying to poly date have an easier time than men do. I cannot see a woman struggling with loneliness like this unless they choose to be alone because they're more picky than they are lonely.

I'm basically ten years deep into my cognitive dissonance regarding my own gender, I guess I'm stuck with the male perspective.(<--- I don't know what that part is trying to say.)

How do you deal with this? It sucks being the only one not having fun outside home dating other people.

Especially when it just looks like an inescapable loop. I've got nearly 50 years of life expectancy left. I do not want to live like this. I also do not want to live alone without my long term relationship either.

Is that it? If so... You seem to list what you are NOT willing to do at this time. Not willing to keep doing this like THIS. Not willing to live alone and end things with partner. So something somewhere has to change.

What area(s) ARE you willing to work on at this time?

  • Are you willing to ask partner to Close and stop with the poly thing entirely?
  • Are you willing to ask partner to spend more connection time with you?
  • Are you wiling to work on your social skills and try meeting new people so you are not home alone and your social network is more than just your current partner?
  • You sound depressed. If you have been like that for 10 years.... have you considered seeing a counselor?
  • Something else?

I don't think this will be solved with one thing. I think you might need a multi-prong plan rather than a single plan.

Galagirl
 
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As much as it may suck to feel like you're missing out, being left out, and/or jealous of your partner's outside "fun", wishing to completely eliminate your sex drive (permanently, no less) seems like an extreme reaction.

This tells me that your long-term partner either doesn't know how badly you're feeling, or your sex life with her is lacking in some major way!

IF you were in a psychologically "centred" place, personally, AND ALSO being satisfied - physically AND emotionally - by your primary relationship... you may ideally still WANT other sex partners, however you probably wouldn't NEED them to the degree that the LACK of such opportunities would completely discombobulate you the way it appears to be doing.

At the moment, you're allowing the perceived lack of opportunities to explore sex with other women to negatively impact every aspect of your life, including your current relationship and self esteem.

I haven't re-read your intro thread, so I'm not sure how many other partners your SO has... but I'm wondering if there is some way she would be willing to curtail (not stop altogether) her other activities - maybe refuse to take on any new partners right now or limit how many days/hours she spends outside the home, leaving you alone and miserable. This, of course, is ultimately not HER responsibility or work to do, though it may be a workable temporary measure.

In the meantime, it seems you have a lot of self reflection to do:
- If you can't see an end to this imbalanced and unfulfilling situation, you may choose to rethink whether or not polyamory is for you.
- If your current partner is more interested in doing her own thing, no matter how it impacts your emotional well-being, you may need to re-assess whether THIS relationship is working out for you.
- You may choose to change aspects of your OWN life (your working environment, social groups, living arrangements, location) to allow yourself more opportunity to meet likeminded people.
- You may need to devote more time to therapy, and to working on your own self esteem, social/relational skills and attitude.
- Develop hobbies, interests and join groups (other than dating sites or poly groups) that maximise your chances of meeting likeminded individuals.

Hahaha! True, true, more true.
So many factors. I ended the relationship last year because I was so tired of trying and failing to deal with the nonfunctional open relationship issue. She wanted to get back together late in the year, no poly. I still loved her, so gave in
//edit: correction: agreed to try again.
That no-poly fell under the bus when a love interest got all forward after about 5 months. Rather than ditch the relationship, I decided to try one more time for balance, I like my relationship except for the stupid left out thing. And it really really looks like it'd be tons of fun if I ever make enough social connections with women for those possibilities to have a chance to evolve to where there's fun for me out in the world too that I don't have to generate myself.

I find it somewhat aggravating that other than this issue, I have excellent self esteem.
But this thing hits so hard that all of my positive self image doesn't even seem to matter.
Not one of my many positive features has had any effect on my issue. I've done tons of research and observation, and put my best foot forward as far as "going out" around other humans to try to find random connections with women. Tons of non poly friendly women out there, I tell you what, and I'm clearly not a good guesser.
Mental issues? Major cognitive dissonance regarding other males as friends. Last guys I thought were my friends, clearly were not, and my (sadly, all-male,) social circle dissolved. I do not feel positive about new guy friends, so the people-ing out there is very crippled. Being all female focused looks bad and has never yet worked, but damn if
I want more guys involved in my life.
Work, not giving up for exposure. Social groups? Had an all-male one back in 2009, have not managed to make a new one yet as I'm not that great at meeting people without introductions (plus the dissonance, it's mostly just guys want to be friendly but I'm not enthused.)
Living arrangements, last summer reminded me that spending all my time alone is not fun either. Location, staying in town until I can afford wooded land.
I wish it was as easy as changing my environmental parameters, but it's internal issues making non superficial connections that have borked my process over the last 9 years.
Improving social relational skills would be great but requires practice, which is in extremely short supply. Being good at making guy friends has not given me any useful things to work from regarding making female friends.
The hobbies and things to do is a big deal. I've read about that repeatedly. Part of the aggravating cognitive dissonance issue was losing the concept of fun being attached to anything but sex and closeness. Other things are cool and all, but nothing else hits that excitement button anymore. And too much brain dead to be enthusiastic about existing hobbies with computers and electronics... Having a major problem that really seriously heeds a solution tends to make for a one track mind without a lot of flexibility. They're not social hobbies anyway.

I'd love to find things to do in the out and about, with women around. Unfortunately, can't dance, too introverted to be more than a lump at parties or bars or what have you.
Have yet to find fun things that aren't all just me by myself (hikes, swimming in summer)
But anyway. Just elaborating since people are responding, even if a lot of it strikes me as picking at my existing issues rather than constructive suggestions. Though I do see the same suggestions repeatedly since 2009, and they're no easier to follow now than they were then, like go find new friends, develop something exciting to do alone so general happiness/attractiveness are increased, go talk to people who you pay to listen to you (therapy,) and finding groups of like minded people (no dice, yet.)
 
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I read your other thread. And now this one. I am having a hard time following.

Are you saying this? I quote juCould you please be willing to clarify? t to visually block it off. You correct me if I get anything wrong, ok?C ould you please be willing to clarify?

For the last 10 years, my current partner and I have had a poor sex life. I want to share sex, but because of X, we don't.
X ranges from emotional discontent to disinterest. We started on the same footing and it actually lasted at least 5-6 years. Which was awesome and is more fun time than I've had in total through the rest of my life so far.
We are open/poly. I find it hard to feel happy for my partner when she goes out to have fun with other people while I am at home feeling isolated and alone.

My life is (time together at home, with no sex) or (she goes out and I'm at home, with no sex).
We do still have some physical interaction, just not as much as my (expletive deleted) drive would like. I do find it really annoying that she is supposedly less interested in sex than I yet still gets more.
...
I'm basically ten years deep into my cognitive dissonance regarding my own gender, I guess I'm stuck with the male perspective.(<--- I don't know what that part is trying to say.)
Here is a tolerable reference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
How do you deal with this? It sucks being the only one not having fun outside home dating other people.

Especially when it just looks like an inescapable loop. I've got nearly 50 years of life expectancy left. I do not want to live like this. I also do not want to live alone without my long term relationship either.

Is that it? If so... You seem to list what you are NOT willing to do at this time. Not willing to keep doing this like THIS. Not willing to live alone and end things with partner. So something somewhere has to change.

What area(s) ARE you willing to work on at this time?

  • Are you willing to ask partner to Close and stop with the poly thing entirely?
    Been there done that. Started this time that way, then she got the offer she was unwilling to refuse. She won't give up on a good thing.
  • Are you willing to ask partner to spend more connection time with you?
    We do that. I only have issues with my rather not be alone time.
  • Are you wiling to work on your social skills and try meeting new people so you are not home alone and your social network is more than just your current partner?
    I'm ten years into that. Feel pretty much lke a total failure. I've gone to many dance things where I bounce by myself, parties where I either wander around and try to figure out who shows interest in talking, or go around playing introduce-y and increase my acquaintance base, coffee shops to draw, swimming where I'm moderately comfortable but still have no good reasons to get into strange women's space to start conversations, walks outside because it's actually enjoyable though no communication options, asked the few people I know for introductions to women who would consider spending time with an involved male (never worked yet.)
    I've really stretched my possibilities a lot, just not good at breaking into stranger's personal space to start conversations, which means basically other guys come up and express interest in (whatever) if there's any conversation at all.
    And still no social group where I don't feel excluded either due to incompetence or having been stomped on.
  • You sound depressed. If you have been like that for 10 years.... have you considered seeing a counselor?
    Yes. Only when the issues are on top though. I had four years of monogamy with no worse feelings than thinking I has failed at my attempt to have fun myself. No. Talking to regular people hasn't done me the slightest bit of good, why pay for the privilege?
  • Something else?
    I'll refine and add to this once I'm at a real keyboard.
    So, mostly reading, talking, researching. People say get out in it, but that just puts a speed bump in the path for people who know what they're doing out there. I am too uncomfortable to enjoy where I'm at, and being uncomfortable reduces my aura or what you want to call it. I want to find the things-to-do that are fun without needing others involved, but other people are still there anyway because it is enjoyable.

I don't think this will be solved with one thing. I think you might need a multi-prong plan rather than a single plan.
Agreed.
Forum is making me type outside the quote, so here's filler text.
 
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I think you have interrelated issues that are tangled up. Kinda hard for internet people to help you untangle something like that.

Which is why I suggest a counselor who is better trained to help you untangle. You don't seem willing to do that at this time.

So your self help options are going to be limited.

I find it somewhat aggravating that other than this issue, I have excellent self esteem.
But this thing hits so hard that all of my positive self image doesn't even seem to matter.

What's the excellent self esteem the positive self image based on?

How is your self respect? I don't see you mention it.

To me, self respecting behavior is what my self esteem is based on. I do behavior that is self honoring and self respecting. I do not do stuff that hurts me or dings me. Then I can feel proud of taking good care of me. I can hold myself in good esteem.

If I lie to myself, tell myself stories, talk down to myself like I am my own self bully -- none of that is self respecting behavior. I cannot feel proud of doing that, and my self esteem as a result won't be so hot.

I see some places in your posts where you kinda talk down.

She wanted to get back together late in the year, no poly. I still loved her, so gave in.

I don't say things like "I gave in." I say "I agreed to try dating again." I take ownership of my choices.

I don't see me as a helpless leaf on a river going whatever way other outside forces say. I see me as a captain of my own ship. It might only be a row boat, but I decide whether to paddle or coast with the current.

How do you see yourself as you move in the world? Like a leaf or a captain or something else?

I ended the relationship last year because I was so tired of trying and failing to deal with the nonfunctional open relationship issue. She wanted to get back together late in the year, no poly. I still loved her, so gave in. That no-poly fell under the bus when a love interest got all forward after about 5 months. Rather than ditch the relationship, I decided to try one more time for balance, I like my relationship except for the stupid left out thing.

The left out thing is not stupid. Why do you call things names when they are important to you? You seem to value connection, inclusion. Why's that stupid?

She asked to get back together Closed. You were willing to try that model.

Then that ended when she wanted to Open again. If open/poly did not work before why agree to try that again rather than say "Nope. Not up for that" or similar?

And it really really looks like it'd be tons of fun if I ever make enough social connections with women for those possibilities to have a chance to evolve to where there's fun for me out in the world too that I don't have to generate myself

It's ok to play the field. Could dating as a single person give you the fun opportunities you want without the problems of poly?

How is you (keeping you in this poly thing after two attempts of it not working) an example of you taking good care of yourself? How can you feel proud of that behavior and hold you in high esteem?

I think you have to ask her to return to Closed. And if she's not up for that, stop seeing her.

Or don't ask, since you see she doesn't really want to do Closed. Could skip right to not seeing her any more and finally accept that love is not enough and you two are just not compatible.

Free yourself of this ill-fitting poly model and stop banging head on wall.

That's not going to solve your other problems with building a friend/support network for yourself, learning to date women better, and working on social skills.

But it ends you having to sit around home feeling sad because she's out elsewhere poly-dating other people while you aren't. You can have your own home and not deal in seeing any of that any more.

I'd love to find things to do in the out and about, with women around. Unfortunately, can't dance, too introverted to be more than a lump at parties or bars or what have you.

If I want to go do stuff out and about? I find the local listings of events and focus on what I am willing to do.

If you don't want to dance or do bars, that's fine. But what DO you want to do or ARE you willing to try? I notice you have yet to list something concrete that you are willing to try in a group. If you like hiking, why not try group hiking?

Could focus on what you want MORE of, rather focus on stuff you do not want.

I don't call my own self names like "lump on a log." That's a put down. How can you feel proud of calling yourself names? That's a ding to self esteem.

I could be wrong, but it is like you go around emptying your self esteem bucket in small ways.

Maybe ways you don't even notice because of depression or because of struggling with 10+ years of frustration. Could that be happening here?

Cuz it's going to be hard to fill the bucket if there's little holes in the bottom draining things away every time you try to put some in there. The little holes might be little, but the effect is not. They don't help the rest stay. They have to be fixed first.

You sound depressed to me so you might want a doctor check up to assess if that is so. Because depression is another bucket drainer.

Though I do see the same suggestions repeatedly since 2009, and they're no easier to follow now than they were then, like go find new friends, develop something exciting to do alone so general happiness/attractiveness are increased, go talk to people who you pay to listen to you (therapy,) and finding groups of like minded people (no dice, yet.)

None of that will be doable if you have depression and have to solve that first. Nothing will have appeal and you may not have the energy to try.

Again, you seem to have MANY overlapping things going on at the same time and untangling them in order to be able to figure out which ones to deal with first? You might want help with that if you have been going at it alone for a long time and no dice.

You may have to change your mind about that "paying people to listen" thing.

Galagirl
 
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Hi SomeDudeLearning,

How much time does your partner spend with you? Whatever amount it is, it doesn't seem to be meeting your needs. Your options seem to be, ask her for more of her time, search for people to date when she's not with you, break up with her (and then perhaps search for a monogamous partner), leave things as they are which so far is making you miserable, or start feeling better without changing anything. I don't know of any way to accomplish that last option, but that doesn't mean a way doesn't exist.

Or some combination of the above.

If you want to search for someone to date, here are some possible resources:

... and



Even if it's not an "alternative" type group, if there's a club or something in your area that does something you're interested in, you can always join that group and it just gives you a way to get out there and meet people. If you meet someone on a platonic level and get to talking about poly, then they can decide how they feel about it without any "pressure to agree." Then if they do decide poly doesn't bother them too much, and some kind of romantic connection subsequently develops, you'll already have "had the poly conversation" with them.

Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Kevin T.
Good points. I like your last option, though haven't found it either. I spent at least half of last year very, very, single, and it did not help with meeting or befriending women. Though I got a lot less gnarly looks about my situation. I did think being single not in a relationship would help, but I fear it was/is more my excessive honesty about what I like, what I want, and what I would not deal with that prevented interactions past the most superficial. For example, burned out enough to leave 14 year long term, so no way I was going to get into that again anytime soon after... Only wanting fun rather than saying I wanted to be involved long term lost me a lot of potentials. But better honest and lonely than taking advantage of someone.
As far as amount of time, we can be apart and it's fine. Lots of practice with making alone time feel tolerable last year. It's her consistently having such an easy time with experiencing so much more of an existence than me that sets off the bothersome emotions. Without that, aside from the non-healing still disliking being reminded of feeling halfway male by proximity to other guys, I'm actually decently happy and stable.
Thanks for the links, I've only tried about the first fourth of them. I did get the novel experience of being absolutely slaughtered at chess four times in fifteen to twenty minute sessions a week or two apart each, thanks to OKC, and "met" an actual poly lady a year ago there who still talks on FB... I just don't have a good format to pester someone to hang out when convenient times mostly refuse to align. At least she's willing to be friendly and has a clue where I'm at, even if in-person interaction isn't really a thing that I can anticipate as more than a potential. So I have gathered one friend from the ridiculous amount of outgoing messages I've sent on those sort of sites. And that is actually pretty cool.
Fetlife, I'm too vanilla except for nonmonogamy, and could not contribute anything useful there. Facebook is funny, it's like having a social life without ever getting the fun of in person communication. Though it points out parties and stuff where people who are able to handle the group mentality get together. I've been at those, though "being there" is kind of a generous term for the way I usually get in groups larger than two or three.
I'll look into the rest. I've searched for clubs and groups, but aside from weird stuff like groups on walks I have not seen things I find enjoyable. And how is it easier to talk in a group just because it's in motion? I really don't grok the extrovert thing. I like people one on one, not in a gang.
And the information is good to add to the ever growing database, and, well, emapthy/sympathy, are nice in their own way. Thanks for contributing.
 
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I think you have interrelated issues that are tangled up. Kinda hard for internet people to help you untangle something like that.

Which is why I suggest a counselor who is better trained to help you untangle. You don't seem willing to do that at this time.

So your self help options are going to be limited.



What's the excellent self esteem the positive self image based on?

How is your self respect? I don't see you mention it.
I do know that I am quite good at a lot of things. When I get dirty looks it's not because I'm a troll, it's because I don't fit expectations. I am happy with being who I am... Even the introversion, excessive straightforwardness, and other personality traits that interfere with meeting new friends, I like, and feel bad about having to bypass them to work my way towards functionality in the big out-there. Esteem, yes. I'm at least ok, if not better, mostly.
The self respect? No. I do not force my world to show respect for my wants. The standard way to manage that is isolation and avoidance, which I am not into at this time.
To me, self respecting behavior is what my self esteem is based on. I do behavior that is self honoring and self respecting. I do not do stuff that hurts me or dings me. Then I can feel proud of taking good care of me. I can hold myself in good esteem.

If I lie to myself, tell myself stories, talk down to myself like I am my own self bully -- none of that is self respecting behavior. I cannot feel proud of doing that, and my self esteem as a result won't be so hot.

I see some places in your posts where you kinda talk down.
yes, that can be a problem. having an aspect of self that is not even moderately successful has allowed that negative inner voice to really gain a lot of volume and vitriol.
I don't say things like "I gave in." I say "I agreed to try dating again." I take ownership of my choices.

I don't see me as a helpless leaf on a river going whatever way other outside forces say. I see me as a captain of my own ship. It might only be a row boat, but I decide whether to paddle or coast with the current.

How do you see yourself as you move in the world? Like a leaf or a captain or something else?
Big rock in variable levels of flooding. Enough push, I move, otherwise I mostly watch things float by.
The left out thing is not stupid. Why do you call things names when they are important to you? You seem to value connection, inclusion. Why's that stupid?
Feelings seem stupid. Illogical, irrational, not useful, and stupid because they have both recurred and persisted so long that I find little value in them. Yeah, wants. Wants can be both real and feel stupid for lack of manifestability at the same time.
She asked to get back together Closed. You were willing to try that model.

Then that ended when she wanted to Open again. If open/poly did not work before why agree to try that again rather than say "Nope. Not up for that" or similar?
It is a all or none situation. If I don't want to play along, I play by myself again. I didn't want that, and I would love to have functional relationships on my side of the table as well. Such a tease, the open relationship has been. This was not intentional though it could have been avoided. I understand the want and the feelings that go along, and still try to be the big kid in spite of my extreme envy about it all.
It's ok to play the field. Could dating as a single person give you the fun opportunities you want without the problems of poly?
Tried last year while single. two different girls wanted a quick no string thing and that would not have happened had I been involved... Those were the most positive and the only physical interactions I had beyond coffee and conversation while single. It didn't really help not being involved, and I had to lower my standards to get any company at all...
How is you (keeping you in this poly thing after two attempts of it not working) an example of you taking good care of yourself? How can you feel proud of that behavior and hold you in high esteem?
Two? Ha. end of 2009. All of 2012. 2017 until single. And now. Could you give up on something you had invested years of time, effort, and even pain into? Especially when you'd really like it to be a real thing and not just imaginary?
I think you have to ask her to return to Closed. And if she's not up for that, stop seeing her.

Or don't ask, since you see she doesn't really want to do Closed. Could skip right to not seeing her any more and finally accept that love is not enough and you two are just not compatible.

Free yourself of this ill-fitting poly model and stop banging head on wall.

That's not going to solve your other problems with building a friend/support network for yourself, learning to date women better, and working on social skills.

But it ends you having to sit around home feeling sad because she's out elsewhere poly-dating other people while you aren't. You can have your own home and not deal in seeing any of that any more.
Did it, was easier. Being totally alone is easier than being partly alone like that. Mostly because there's no re-ignition and withdrawl for sex, plus the picture window is closed when it's just another person out there having fun and not one's up close and personal significant other.
If I want to go do stuff out and about? I find the local listings of events and focus on what I am willing to do.

If you don't want to dance or do bars, that's fine. But what DO you want to do or ARE you willing to try? I notice you have yet to list something concrete that you are willing to try in a group. If you like hiking, why not try group hiking?

Could focus on what you want MORE of, rather focus on stuff you do not want.

I don't call my own self names like "lump on a log." That's a put down. How can you feel proud of calling yourself names? That's a ding to self esteem.

I could be wrong, but it is like you go around emptying your self esteem bucket in small ways.

Maybe ways you don't even notice because of depression or because of struggling with 10+ years of frustration. Could that be happening here?

Cuz it's going to be hard to fill the bucket if there's little holes in the bottom draining things away every time you try to put some in there. The little holes might be little, but the effect is not. They don't help the rest stay. They have to be fixed first.

You sound depressed to me so you might want a doctor check up to assess if that is so. Because depression is another bucket drainer.



None of that will be doable if you have depression and have to solve that first. Nothing will have appeal and you may not have the energy to try.
yup. But the depression was only a killer at first, and second worst through '12 as I more thoroughly realized how far I was from participating. Now, it's just doldrums. Get used to the discomfort more over time.
Again, you seem to have MANY overlapping things going on at the same time and untangling them in order to be able to figure out which ones to deal with first? You might want help with that if you have been going at it alone for a long time and no dice.

You may have to change your mind about that "paying people to listen" thing.

Galagirl
It's a thought. I'd have to actually trust someone random for that, though. And be optimistic that I'm not just spending time and money for someone's personal opinion couched in psych-speak.
 
Two? Ha. end of 2009. All of 2012. 2017 until single. And now. Could you give up on something you had invested years of time, effort, and even pain into? Especially when you'd really like it to be a real thing and not just imaginary?

Yes. I would cut my losses and give it up.

I need a decent return on my investment for me to be willing to keep on with something. If I keep investing and I keep getting blah back? I don't want to keep ON investing there. I'm not into chasing sunk cost fallacy.

I would let this one go, clean up the rest of my life, and if later on when I was on better footing I wanted to try poly again? I would try it again at that future point in time. But I would accept that right now like this? It's not working out.

Did it, was easier. Being totally alone is easier than being partly alone like that. Mostly because there's no re-ignition and withdrawl for sex, plus the picture window is closed when it's just another person out there having fun and not one's up close and personal significant other

Especially when I know a path that is easier on me.

Maybe you choose to be alone for a while, rest, and then see what area of your life you address next. Then there is no more of that stuff dragging you down any more... even if there are still other areas of life to solve.

It's a thought. I'd have to actually trust someone random for that, though. And be optimistic that I'm not just spending time and money for someone's personal opinion couched in psych-speak.

I hope you think about a check up and remember that if the first one you try is not a good match, you could fire them and try again.

No different than hiring any other professional for jobs. A lawn guy, an electrician, a dentist, a mechanic, whoever. You give them a shot at the job, and if they do well you keep them on as your regular person for that area.

If not? You try again with a different one until you find the right one that works better. You are spending the time and money as an investment in YOU. In improving your health and well being.

If money is a problem, see what alternatives are available in your area. Some offer a sliding scale, sometimes schools have counseling by students, etc

I hope you feel a bit better for airing out some here in the meanwhile. I hope in time your burdens get easier.

Galagirl
 
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Ok, fine.
All you end-it people win.
Tired of the conflict and double standards. Again. Stood up for myself.
No compromises available. Since we can't get along with the way she wants things, it's over again. She's tired of being grossed out by me wanting another partner specifically because she has one, and I'm tired of being grossed out by her having one while I don't and can't compensate. She has never understood that it's her having extra that drives me to try to find the same for myself. I've never gone looking like this otherwise in my entire 45 years of existence. I'm tired of being told that me searching for what she won't give up is offensive or gross or other negative terms. What's good for the goose...

I'll have the house to myself again except for the kids half time and the front room business which at least should pay part of the house bills for letting her use it, unless I build another bedroom so we can save money by coparenting without romantic involvement, and not move the kids back and forth.
Being single means time to meditate and get used to no companionship again, my lack of social skills and existing resources doesn't function any better single than involved. Still better than being stressed and sad on a regular predictable basis, even if I'll really miss the good parts of having companionship, and opportunities for touch and physical contact, that don't exist for me in the world as-is without an ongoing long term relationship.
I hope we can be better friends this time. Knowing there's no way our lives can coexist without one or the other of them being seriously different from what they are now removes my previous fear of being drawn back in again. Dunno about her, she gets super pissed off at me trying to communicate about the ongoing conflict trying to find some kind of solution. I'll be lucky if there's any rational conversation today since I brought up trying to solve the ongoing issues this morning which eventually led to "we should be done." Which this time I agreed with.
 
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I'm tired of being told that me searching for what she won't give up is offensive or gross or other negative terms. What's good for the goose...

The double standard thing and calling you names because you want same standards for both sounds unfair/stressy. Can see why you would be tired of that.

I brought up trying to solve the ongoing issues this morning which eventually led to "we should be done." Which this time I agreed with.

I'm all for trying to work things out. But I'm not into banging heads on walls indefinitely. Sometime the only solution is to agree that it is just not working and not likely to work. Then accept that the two people are just not compatible any more. :(

I hope we can be better friends this time.

I hope so too. :eek:

Being single means time to meditate and get used to no companionship again, my lack of social skills and existing resources doesn't function any better single than involved. Still better than being stressed and sad on a regular predictable basis, even if I'll really miss the good parts of having companionship

I'm glad you are starting to think more about what YOU need to become healthier even if it is is not "all the way" healthier just yet. Less stress and reducing some of your burdens is a good thing.

Hang in there as you acclimate to these changes.

Galagirl
 
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The double standard thing and calling you names because you want same standards for both sounds unfair/stressy. Can see why you would be tired of that.
Yeah, who wouldn't.
I can't believe I have had the ability to take that for so long and not just blow the f*ck up. I have definitely learned from this involvement that I am way tougher than I ever gave myself credit for, but also that I put up with tons and tons of bulls*it to keep things stable when I have a vested interest.
I do not have the self respect you mentioned, clearly, and I have felt bad for a long time about putting up with the double standards and belittling of my own wants.
I'm all for trying to work things out. But I'm not into banging heads on walls indefinitely. Sometime the only solution is to agree that it is just not working and not likely too. Then accept that the two people are just not compatible any more. :(
Ugh. But, yeah.
I hope so too. :eek:



I'm glad you are starting to think more about what YOU need to become healthier even if it is is not "all the way" healthier just yet. Less stress and reducing some of your burdens is a good thing.

Hang in there as you acclimate to these changes.

Galagirl
I have thought a long time about what I need. I tried last year for six months by being alone, and I was getting a little bit better at filling my time and feeling less negative about being isolated by the end. I felt less aggravated from the rejections while trying to find women to spend time with because it was only want, rather than a perceived need. Still was not overly pleasant, I would not consider being alone to be "what I need," but at least the stress of having to try to be or act like something I clearly am not able to fake was gone.
I will settle for less stress. I do not really see fading out to hermit-land as being very useful for fixing up my social issues like detesting my own gender and not being willing to violate random, apparently uninterested, women's personal space for my own conversational benefit, but it sure is a lot less uncomfortable to be isolated when there is no pressure to be otherwise.
I cannot justify going out to be purely uncomfortable without the necessary pressure to do that, no matter how much I would like physical contact or how addicted I am to it. Besides, past experiences over the years have made it impossible to be optimistic about finding company at random, without putting serious focused effort into hassling specific girls I have already met but are only acquaintances, to pay attention. Emotional involvement is right out at the moment, I am feeling rather fried on that concept again. My emotions are far from positive regarding relationships in general.
But according to the books it's better to be alone than codependent and miserable, even just 1/7 to 3/7 of the time, on a regular basis. I like company but it is not worth pain.
 
I do not have the self respect you mentioned, clearly, and I have felt bad for a long time about putting up with the double standards and belittling of my own wants.

To me it sounds like you have it. Just were not exercising it. And now you are choosing to exercise it and do more self honoring and more self respecting things. Like NOT put up with it any more.

But according to the books it's better to be alone than codependent and miserable, even just 1/7 to 3/7 of the time, on a regular basis. I like company but it is not worth pain.

And that too is self respecting behavior. Deciding to remove yourself from yuck. If keeping company with someone is hurting you? It comes at too high a personal cost. Not worth the price of admission. It's ok to stop paying the price tag and stop being there. It's ok to choose to be alone so the hurting can stop.

It is not selfish to put your own health first. It is sometimes necessary. Like putting your own oxygen mask on first in a plane crash before trying to help anyone else with their rational and reasonable stuff.

Double standards and insults? Not rational. Not reasonable. You do not have to participate in keeping that afloat. Esp when it comes a cost to your health and well being.

Galagirl
 
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To me it sounds like you have it. Just were not exercising it. And now you are choosing to exercise it and do more self honoring and more self respecting things. Like NOT put up with it any more.



And that too is self respecting behavior. Deciding to remove yourself from yuck. If keeping company with someone is hurting you? It comes at too high a personal cost. Not worth the price of admission. It's ok to stop paying the price tag and stop being there. It's ok to choose to be alone so the hurting can stop.

It is not selfish to put your own health first. It is sometimes necessary. Like putting your own oxygen mask on first in a plane crash before trying to help anyone else with their rational and reasonable stuff.

Double standards and insults? Not rational. Not reasonable. You do not have to have to participate in keeping that afloat. Esp when it comes a cost to your health and well being.

Galagirl
There were factors that had gotten me used to the self-suppresion. I spent a lot of years feeling like my kids were better off without a split household, and figured they were more important than my own stuff. During that time was when my personal power, as it were, was eroded away, and the control games and insults manifested and increased.
Walking away last year was as much to end that as it was discomfort with the picture window on poly. Getting back together, those things were minimized. The poly thing showing up when it was not supposed to brought all the negatives back quick, including a strong perception that my boundaries and feelings had less value than the fun of playing around.

I would be feeling better about my isolation without 15 years of being spoiled by the positive aspects of a long term relationship. It's not like things were constantly negative, only overwhelming when other people were involved in my relationship without my explicit agreement, just explicit tolerance.
Considering the longest previous relationship was two years and before that six months... Ugh. Addictions.

She says she does still want to be friendly, and a lot more friendly than I am used to after things cool down. Last year I wouldn't be physical (though I was flattered to be asked,) because I feared emotional entanglement. Now I am not worried about that anymore.
I had already told her while we were having issues with her extra that I felt I would be a better third wheel than a primary just for my own emotional outlook. As a third, or one of however many, I am single and can appreciate any contact or closeness without the overhead of feeling left out. Instead, in that situation, I feel included... Ironic, it seems I will possibly end up with a friend with benefits, but not in the situation where I felt I needed one.
Not what I wanted at all. I wanted to stabilize my feelings and self-image while improving the condition of my long-term relationship with the mother of my children. Oh well. Like I said, less stress is valid even if I lose a chunk of my comfort.
People ask what my goal in life is. It sure isn't woman hunting. It is comfort. Increased as far as possible, with as little involuntary expenditure of energy as possible.
People-ing has really whacked my comfort as well as that self-image.
My self image was actually pretty good before I realized how hard it was going to be to find women who'd be interested in playful sex... I never had cared enough to realize the difficulty, and felt like I should have a fair chance at it, before it became a perceived need rather than an annoying want. At least that's still the only good ding in my self-image, and now that part has a lower priority again like it should. I still label sex drive as stupid, say what you will. It has interfered with my happiness since puberty.
 
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I am coming late to this but read both your threads just now.

I am glad you broke up. I see you saying your partner has said she will fuck you after the breakup settles in, since you won't be as much of an emotional drain on her. Or so you both seem to think.

There is a common recommendation to not communicate in any way with an ex after breakup, for 40 days. No talking, no texting, no FB stalking, etc etc.

I hear you have kids, so you'd need to limit interaction with their mother to the bare minimum required to coparent, change living conditions, share custody and the like. No dating, no long convos about feelings, no good night calls to share how your days went.

I'd be extremely cautious about becoming your ex's "secondary" (the proper term for the role you are considering, not "third wheel"), if and when you resume more frequent contact as "friends." Emotions really do follow sexual contact, especially if it's with an ex. I don't know if it would be healthy for you to do that... might be very risky and set you back.

Another thing in your saga that has barely been addressed is your hatred of your own gender. I wonder what happened with your guy friends group to make you hate men so much? I know in our current cultural climate, #metoo and increased awareness of how the patriarchy hurts women, some men really take this to heart and agree men suck. Is it that? If so, do more to help women and reduce discrimination and abuse. Call out men you see doing hurtful things. Give more power to women at work if you're in the position to do so. Just hating men doesn't really help the situation.

Women are people and most of us like attention from nice respectful interesting people. I think your fear of invading their space in a rude way might be a bit of overkill.

On the other hand, if you hate men and want to castrate yourself to rid yourself of sex drive/testosterone, could you be struggling with gender identity questions? If so, all the more reason to seek therapy.

I do see you as depressed. Maybe you're not as depressed now as at other times in your life, but it is still having an impact. I'd be cheeky and say, if you present as depressed to a therapist, she might recommend a SSRI like Zoloft, which often reduces libido. Killing 2 birds with one stone, as you heal, and hopefully, grow in self love and confidence.

Galagirl is a good online "therapist," and others here have offered great advice and caring words. However, nothing beats a nice 50 minute talk therapy session for venting, feeling "heard," and hopefully being offered coping skills tailored to your specific current state, as well as what it was in your background that led you to this point of sadness and feelings of inadequacy and confusion about socialising.
 
Honestly, I insist that all the related issues stem from the circumstances of the now closed relationship. I used to have multiple male friends and get along with them well, no gender issues. I was blissfully unconcerned that I hadn't figured out how to have a similar circle of female friends because I was in no way stressed about the idea and had no clue how to go about that anyway.
I started avoiding males as uncomfortable after one of my less considerate friends successfully hit on my ex in our house as a guest. That was the thing that led me to certain understandings about my level of importance in the relationship, and started me searching for a secondary if that's the correct term. It also made me paranoid about male friends being a threat to my emotional well being
I knew I couldn't just go out and magically find similar interest in me, and got super frustrated, went through about a six month solid depression with real serious symptoms, only keeping myself vertical for taking care of the kids and barely the house. I was the stay home parent at that time.
After crawling out of real depression, I delved deep into white and black hat literature regarding cross gender interface, flirting, PUA stuff, you name it, I read it, and had seeming ethical issues or hesitations like the personal space thing which interfered with all of the data. Even things like Carnegie's book and other similar, pfft. Too much selling something, and I was not feeling good about myself as a commodity even though I wanted to be.
Then I started spending lots of time "out" trying to be around people having fun who might want to extend that to include me, and did a lot of observation of seemingly functional people that matched up with my reading.
I tried to talk to new people in spite of my distaste for breaking personal space with various reactions, but mostly women felt bad for my partner because I was looking (mind you, she's out in public, clearly /with/ paramours and randoms at this time)
Didn't make much in the way of connections unless I'd like to re pursue the acquaintance introduction and small talk with most recognizable ladies to see if they're more amenable after this long time.
Got a couple years break where she agreed to one of the evils I've read about, to avoid stress, the one penis policy, while she could have all the girl contact she could manifest with absolutely no stress and pure compersion from me. Now, the normal issue with that would be the guy getting extra while the girl is limited, but in this case it was just a reprieve for my emotions for a while, as I'm no player and haven't been that lucky in a rather long time.
Then more friends start making moves, of course it's fun, and all of a sudden all the rules are out the window because I've already been putting up with being stepped on for a while at that point.
Lost about half of my friend circle and was too embarrassed to be around the rest.
Haven't really interfaced with any of them in a long time. Still embarrassed....
After about a year of me scrabbling around trying to meet new friends and obtain dates (very few) she's tired of being treated shabbily by flings and secondaries. Wants to be monogamous. I wanted to keep on with the year's solid effort I'd put in under extreme stress, and I got set up for one night with a girl who miscommunicated with my partner and there were dumb hard feelings that cost me two months sex and four years monogamy. Not cool, not fair at all considering losing my best friends to greedy asshat-itis, and that put solid negative associations on the single time I got any appreciation from outside my relationship as a sexual being.
Then 2017, her Facebook friends originally for business interest, convince her to ask to open the relationship again.
I'd like the experience, thought she was going to help me traverse the party and social scene this time, but instead hog wild fun and very little time for me.
That time was much negative too, because I was frustrated about there being so little of it, and much of it superficial. My emotions leaked as nonverbal, and caused negativity.
I got fed up with no sex after a couple weeks of being the only one not getting any, called out at least occasional sex and closeness as a requirement for a long term committed relationship, and when that was poo-poohed, I walked away a while, ending up pretty dang lonely, but I had no actual expectation it would be otherwise.
The rest is more or less posted here.
Any references to self castration are more along the line of make the (low value to me but high annoyance) sex drive stop, it's been mostly (75% of clock time I've been awake) a negative thing to experience since puberty. Sure, sex is tons of fun, when it exists as something more than imagination. That's too small a percentage of the time it bothers my mind and forces Zen mode instant mediations just to distract myself from looping on wanting it. Works, but I swear, the drive is biology triggered, and gets a lot weaker without direct exposure to females or media that glorifies their forms. I just figure I'm a lot more likely to benefit from turning it off than I am to suddenly find that it's actually something that can be satisfied regularly without anyone picking up negativity about it.
I understand the distance advice, but as with last time, having kids and being focused on keeping things fair makes it impossible to avoid each other properly. No touching, sure, that's readily possible, as was the format for the entire six months separated last year.
I just liked the idea of having the option for touch /somewhere./ I'm less likely to get emotional contamination knowing there's no point in a standard relationship. But whatever. Total celibacy helps avoid the withdrawal symptoms from only having occasional sex anyway. Besides, sex is one of the things that now I have a very difficult time looking forward to, as it seems unpredictable as to when it will actually manifest. Even if planned it often never happens, so it's really hard to look forward to the idea with anticipation. One gets tired of having things fall through after it happens enough times, no matter how good the thing you're hoping for is.
 
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There's one factor that quietly hasn't been addressed in this, I assume to avoid additional butthurt on my part if it had been an issue.
I've complained about sex frequency, quantity not quality.
And the thing not brought up, as one of the things that can make a female partner not want any, is, was the sex good for her?
Well, I'd asked, in and out of the relationship, because her wanting more than me really added some insecurity about me not being able to provide enough, either quantity or quality, making her go roam for more.
No, the opposite, I'm told that no-one else out there is as considerate (aware, maybe even) of sexual needs or as good at doing something about them. Far, far from any physiological deficiency either. And I want tons more quantity than she did these days.
I'd think a statement like that would just be for ego padding, if she hadn't told me the same thing last summer after we'd been broken up for months. So I guess I believe it.
I'd not feel I could specify something like that most places, but a poly forum is probably open minded enough to get by with it.
 
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