Limited Polyamory

Thanks for your recent comments.

Most of the recent comments discuss why option (6) is better than option (1), and I just wanted to address why my wife and I have both reached the opposite conclusion (independently, and with support from therapists).

As a preliminary point, how "good" each of those two options are is not "fixed" for all cases. Some relationships may be toxic, making (1) a very bad option, but others may be warm and affectionate, with just a degree of dissatisfaction due to something missing, making (1) quite good. Similarly, the circumstances in some cases may be such that option (6) is good (a couple separating with no children or joint assets, and for whom they no longer see each other romantically anyway), while others where it would be very traumatic.

It is certainly true that our relationship has been through the mill, and has involved cheating. Those were incredibly dark times which directly resulted from my inability to deal with my wife's lack of sexual desire towards me. I think it is fair to say that I dealt with it incredibly badly at the time, and made myself more or less unlovable in my bitterness. However, we have both moved on light-years from that in the past 18 months, and have built our relationship up to the point where we have a level of affection, mutual support and companionship which is far beyond that of "friendship". We still go out on dates (just the two of us), buy each other thoughtful gifts, and we have the greatest common (and altruistic) purpose in the world - to give our children the best possible upbringing. Yes, the lack of sex/desire is a non-trivial issue, but I don't think that you could really label the relationship as making us miserable - mostly just frustrated. So, for us, option (1) is not so bad.

If we look at option (6), it is of course possible to separate gracefully, or even to adopt a "parenting marriage" (based on mutual respect and purpose, with no real sense of "us" outside of bringing up the children). There are anecdotes of successes in this regard in some of your posts.

But taking the wider view, these anecdotes are not the norm. I suspect that to have a healthy separation my wife and I would require distance from each other, which is inherently inconsistent with any form of pro-active co-parenting. It is clear from my posts that I can't cope with her being with another man - I'm still totally in love with this woman. If we were to decide to separate, those feelings are not going to go away, and the chances of us being able to remain as a cohesive unit when she meets a new romantic partner are very low.

There are practical reasons too. My children are at private school, and we push our financial capabilities to the extreme to make that possible, and to be able to give them a wide range of life experiences. We simply won't be able to afford this if we separate. This isn't putting money before happiness, its a recognition that there would be a lifestyle and educational downgrade for our children.

I have studied all this in incredible detail (when we were much closer to splitting up). Mainstream studies nearly all show that parental separation is only better for the children if the parents relationship was toxic (e.g. with shouting/violence/passive aggressive behaviour/neglect etc.), and otherwise the children are better off if the parents stay together and maintain a functional relationship. Some of the "outside of the box" solutions proposed might have a chance of doing better, but those solutions are very difficult to achieve in practice, and knowing both myself and my wife, probably impossible to achieve for us.

I'm a scientist, and I will always follow where the evidence leads me. And having analysed those two options from a number of different angles I'm driven inevitably to the conclusion that we are probably both best off with option (1). My wife reaches a similar conclusion (although on a much less scientific basis!).

I hope that makes sense to people.
 
Thank you for clarifying. I can better understand your thinking on it. It sounds like at this time, 1 is the best solution for you two then.

Galagirl
 
..parental separation is only better for the children if the parents relationship was toxic (e.g. with shouting/violence/passive aggressive behaviour/neglect etc.), and otherwise the children are better off if the parents stay together and maintain a functional relationship.

This is total BS, but of course, would bolster your current beliefs and would help you to tolerate a wife who doesn't want have sex with you. If you are interested in doing what the crowd does, what mainstream studies report to be the norm, why come to a forum that is full of living, breathing proof that life can be different and so much better than what most people assume is possible? I'm not trying to get you to make the choice that I made, I'm just asking you to perhaps broaden your beliefs about what life can be - since you seem to able to do that, judging by your presence here. Not for nothing, but history is full of scientists who did not follow the pack, chose to think differently and ended up forging the way forward for all of mankind. Being a scientist has absolutely nothing to do with the choice to do what everyone else around you seems to be doing.
 
That's one heck of a story. Somebody ought to write a screenplay about it. :)

...and that's just the divorce part. There's a subsequent poly component that is unfolding, but i'm not sure if the world is ready for a poly family love story that does not involve massive drama, constant partner swapping and kooky fashion choices.
 
Hi Angelina,

With all due respect, it is not total BS. It may not be correct for your situation, because given the very small minority of polyamorous families, it is very likely that the studies I've read did not poll any polyamorous families at all. This would mean those studies probably would be entirely irrelevant for you, but they are perfectly well matched to me. You admitted in your own earlier message that "Happy divorce really is possible, even if rare.", so even you would presumably accept that in anything other than those rare cases, it couldn't really be considered "positive" for the children compared with a affectionate and functional (but non-sexual) marriage. I applaud you for making it work so successfully, but to attack me for not ignoring the experts is entirely unreasonable of you.

You also have no reasonable basis to judge the motivations for my reaching the conclusions I have. I have no motivations to reach particular conclusions, only to investigate the options with an open mind. Your assertion is pretty similar to an atheist who says "you only worship God because you don't want to go to hell", or the Christian who replies "you only refuse to believe in God because you want to sin".

I think I have been very clear about where I am coming from, and the reasons for my decisions. I have also been very careful to make it clear that the conclusion I have reached is specific to me. For some people a separation is clearly correct. I'm sure you made the right decision for you based on the facts you had and the way you (and your spouse) felt. I'm doing exactly the same, but my facts, and our feelings are likely entirely different to your own, and so we are perfectly entitled to reach a different conclusion.

I think I've been honest about my reasons for coming to this forum. I made it quite clear that I wasn't looking for help in whether or not to stay with my wife, I was looking for advice on whether polyamory/non-monogamy could be a way for us to improve our lives together. And everyone has been very helpful in relation to that point.

As to why I would pick scientific/psychological studies over the experience of this group in relation to the benefits/risks of separation, there is a very simple reason for this - confirmation bias. In a group full of those with the emotional skillset and worldview required for a polyamorous relationship, it should be obvious that those people would also do better with creative solutions to separation. Again, I've been really quite clear that I lack that skillset and worldview, and so what may be perfectly achievable for those folks here is unlikely to be so achievable for me.

In terms of beliefs, I have very broad views. The ONLY view that I will not abandon is that reason and evidence are my candle in the dark. I was brought up as a Christian, but abandoned that for atheism (after deep investigation of several other monotheistic and polytheistic religions) due to lack of evidence. I grew up surrounded by light negativity over homosexuality, and in a sexually repressed environment where non-monogamy was frowned upon strongly, but I have no issues now over any of those things - whether or not I have any leaning towards them myself. Any why is that? It's because there is no evidence that any of those things are in any way harmful per se.

Anyway, I thank everyone for their help on this forum.

Jayke
 
Hi Jayke,

My situation was a bit different than yours - but we share in common a desire to keep our families together. Like you, I deeply value the time I spend with our daughter - and the time we spend together as a family. With no judgment or disrespect to those who choose otherwise, separation, divorce, breaking up the family was never really an option for us - polyamory or no.... But, otoh, for some, splitting up is by far the best option.

My wife asked me to open our marriage so that she could explore her re-emerging feels for an old college boyfriend. As I've read others' stories on the forum, I've often thought that those husbands whose wives just wanted relationships with women outside the marriage were the lucky ones. I know, for me, that would have been far easier to cope with than learning how to be ok with my wife having sex with another man - especially for a good ol' southern boy who grew up in a very conservative fundamentalist-evangelical church.

We had a great a sex life going into poly - and it seems poly has made it even better. (While not into kink, we like to play - toys, porn, fantasy story telling, and the like - and we found the sexual energy generated by a secondary relationship could enhance our marital sexual energy as well, an experience noted in the poly literature.)

The full story is in my signature link below but when she made the request to open our marriage, I made the commitment to give it real consideration - partly out of fear of disrupting our marriage if I refused. Almost certainly refusal would not have led to divorce, but it would have caused major tension and lingering resentments. But also because I could tell that this was something she really wanted, but without destroying our marriage or our family - and I loved her enough to at least consider it.

Ultimately, with enough processing, I came to the conclusion that my objections were largely a cultural bias - and given that fact, I was willing to undo that conditioning - which I accomplished with a lot of time spent on this forum, reading poly books, listening to podcasts, etc... Eventually, these efforts led to a paradigm shift that allowed me to be ok with her being with another man - especially since we had an ironclad agreement that we would not let it affect our marriage in any significant way (and, a year later, it hasn't - actually probably better).

Further down the road, although not really actively looking, I found another love as well, and have come to embrace poly as my chosen lifestyle.

I am definitely not saying this would be for you and your wife - but it is possible to successfully open a marriage to polyamory and maintain the marriage and the family. Maybe option 4 deserves another look - but it can't be done without a real willingness and a real effort.

Best of luck - in whatever direction you should travel. Al
 
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..to attack me for not ignoring the experts is entirely unreasonable of you....

You perhaps felt attacked, but I assure you, that was not my intention, Jayke. I only assert that when it comes to beliefs about what is possible for individuals, there is no such thing as "experts." I said, "I'm not trying to get you to make the choice that I made, I'm just asking you to perhaps broaden your beliefs about what life can be." So fair enough, you're going to remain married to a woman who does not want to have sex with you. You're ready to offer women for her sexual fulfillment, but what about yours? What is your plan for sex during the next 40 years or so? I don't ask to be facetious, I'm seriously asking. Four decades is an awfully long time to be celibate and even the "experts" must concede that exceedingly few people succeed at the attempt.
 
But taking the wider view, these anecdotes are not the norm. I suspect that to have a healthy separation my wife and I would require distance from each other, which is inherently inconsistent with any form of pro-active co-parenting. It is clear from my posts that I can't cope with her being with another man - I'm still totally in love with this woman. If we were to decide to separate, those feelings are not going to go away, and the chances of us being able to remain as a cohesive unit when she meets a new romantic partner are very low.

OK Jay. While I and probably many others may not agree that separating will necessary ruin your kids, she has already cheated on you, and you are taking the blame. You can't stand her being with another man, so congratulations that puts you with the overwhelming majority of men. But now that you choose option #1, monogamy, whats the plan when she cheats on you again, because as Fallen Angelina said 30-40 years of you both being celibate is not exactly a formula for marital bliss.

Now millions of people exist fine not having wild passionate sex three or four times a week, but so far your wife;s behavior has been anything but "ethical", and if your statement that you cannot tolerate her being with other men, unless she believes your reaction will not be the same as previously then you are just kicking the can down the road.
 
I have to add my voice once again to the last few posters, who I believe make at least one very salient point, and that is:

For most people, sex, sexuality and romantic love/NRE are very powerful forces. Desire for physical and emotional gratification - especially where it has been withheld for a long time - often compels people to make choices they would hesitate to make in a calmer, more rational state of mind.

When one's sexual equilibrium is off-kilter for some reason (for ex: one is in denial about one's sexual orientation, is living a life of enforced celibacy, is being consistently denied loving touch etc.) a person tends to eventually act out in ways that may be contrary to their own code of ethical or natural disposition.

- You wife is a bisexual-verging-on-lesbian woman. Let's say she's homoflexible or the like. She cheated before due to feeling like her needs weren't being met. For whatever reason she is no longer attracted to you sexually, and it doesn't look like that will return as a permanent feature of your partnership.

- You, on the other hand, are a straight male who is deeply in love with your wife. All things being ideal, you'd like to resume a healthy and satisfying sexual relationship with HER, yet this appears to be off the cards for the foreseeable future, maybe for all time.

***********

Jayke, you came here looking for advice from a well-informed and active poly "community". Most here advised you it'd be in your wife's (and your own) best interests to either split up amicably yet remain close, hands-on co-parents --- OR ---- TRY to open you mind and emotions to the possibilities that polyamory entails, for the sake of BOTH yours and your wife's future sexual fulfilment.

Despite both the aforementioned incompatibilities, you and your wife have talked extensively - and you, as a scientist, have read related (albeit, mono-based) studies and come to the conclusion that it'd be in the best interests of your children - and your otherwise enjoyable marriage - if you stayed together and remained monogamous (aka more or less "celibate", for all intents and purposes, given the above points) at least until your children are grown, have finished their education and/or moved out of home. Correct?

Nobody except your wife and yourself can decide this for you, obviously. However, as the above posters mentioned... your wife has already cheated, no doubt due to some degree of sexual frustration and unfulfilled desires.

If you both choose to remain "mono-celibate" for the remaining years of active parenting, I agree with SexySerb and Angelina/Karen that this will probably only increase the chances of one or BOTH of you cheating on this agreement in the long-term - and possibly even within the first year or two.

Without wanting to sound too negative, I think a lot depends on the ages of your children and how long you envisage it'll be before the youngest is able to live independently. If it's only a handful of years, your plan MAY just be doable. If, however, the youngest is still very young - say under ten years old - you have AT LEAST another eight or more years before they're on their own and active parenting ceases.

In the interests of full disclosure - I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier in this thread - I myself did choose to hold off having a physical relationship with someone other than my husband UNTIL my children were in college and independent, despite the opportunity arising beforehand. HOWEVER in my case, my husband and I had already UNofficially separated and I only had to wait around eighteen months before I felt "free" to resume a more sexually free way of living.

If I'm going to be perfectly honest here... if your children are still young AND there is relatively little chance of reigniting your wife's sexual interest in you (naturally, or via some form of therapy), I can only see this arrangement being an exercise in frustration for the both of you as time goes on.:(
 
Just a thought... if financial impacts are part of the reason for not wanting to divorce and split households, and having the kids be away from a parent part of the time are the other reason.... is there a creative household solution that would allow you more separation while still allowing you both to move on with your romantic lives? Like, if you already own a house, could you consider selling that and seeing if there in an affordable duplex that would allow you each to live in one half? The kids would easily be able to go between places. I can't say that I know if the numbers make that actually affordable.

The other thing is... while I realize your concerned with having to watch your wife continue on with her romantic life if you were to live together as co-parents but divorce... but keep in mind, the point would be that you would also move on. So while it might hurt to see your wife happily be involved with other people, I would imagine that those feelings would fade in time, and you would eventually also be looking to date and make a connection with someone else as well (when you were ready) so at a certain point, you would both adjust to your situation. To me, that doesn't seem much different from the idea of having to adjust to being celibate and knowing that your spouse is no longer interested in you romantically and so you'll never be that person to her any longer. Both are unhappy things to adjust to, and both take time.

Just some food for thought.
 
..So while it might hurt to see your wife happily be involved with other people, I would imagine that those feelings would fade in time, and you would eventually also be looking to date and make a connection with someone else as well (when you were ready) so at a certain point, you would both adjust to your situation. To me, that doesn't seem much different from the idea of having to adjust to being celibate and knowing that your spouse is no longer interested in you romantically and so you'll never be that person to her any longer. Both are unhappy things to adjust to, and both take time.

This is what we did. We were not a polyamorous family as Jake seems to think, but were a suburban mono family - as typical as it gets. My husband was never poly and is never going to be poly. He's even a conservative Republican! But what we did was see ahead a few years and agreed that celibacy was NOT an option for either of us, so we found ways to adjust to the notion of new partners - which for us involved marital separation. I'll say again, that the choice to amicably separate is available to anyone who wants to make the choice. It's not some out-there concept that only a certain group of people or only poly people have access to.

Also, my husband did move out to his own place, but we kept the family home the same. The kids were not moved from one place to the other, as is typical in divorces. He comes here almost every day to visit and hangs out on weekends. In the early days, it was emotionally challenging, but we stuck with our commitment to kindness and stability - and we all adjusted. This is an example of what I mean by broadening our beliefs about what life can be. Why take kids back and forth between two households when dad can come visit every day in the same family home as always? Just because everyone else does the two homes, split holidays, visitation schedule doesn't mean that it's the only way to do it.

My husband is now married to a lovely woman who LOVES having sex with him and our family home was never disrupted or compromised. All because we didn't get derailed by what everyone else was doing, but instead looked to what was possible for us and to what we wanted. Now he and I are having great sex in loving relationships, the kids are happy because we are happy. I'm not trying to tell you to do it my way, Jayke, I'm just urging you not to sit in 40 years of celibacy (and failing) just because you perceive your choices to be limited. They are not.
 
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Jayke, Hi welcome to the forum.

I think there’s a a couple critical things that both you and your wife have over looked in coming up with the option list. The fact is the old marriage is dead or gone or will be as soon as you open up the relationship. I get neither you or she wants to blow up the family and go through the huge hassle and expense of divorce for a single issue. The solution is for everyone to settle and cobble.

The motivation for each person is to carry on with life with the least amount of “suck “/ negative consequences...in the mindset of the old marriage. Your wife gets to have or explore sex with women without blowing up her life and home and disrupting the kids....you get remain married and don’t have to move your shit out of the house and pay for lawyers and appraisals, etc etc etc etc etc and get to start a new porn hobby.

Both parties are saying and or doing things to hang on. Not from a genuine place of building a future.

Could this work for you both?? YES. It’s not that uncommon for sexual mismatch or dysfunction to bring people to this solution. The thing you both need to know is there is lots of moving parts and it doesn’t take much to knock a couple teeth off a gear.

Also I think you’re naive in thinking that in a yr or 2 you won’t be bargaining table discussing your wife’s need “ male love “.

Plus how do you enter into agreements with a person who is a know liar/ cheater. How much confidence do you have in anything she says or does ???
Unless of course all arraignments or agreements are viewed in the short term. Like today or near term.

One last thing. You might want to check out Poly Hell. Basically it’s demotion, displacement and intrusion and how these elements destabilize a relationship.
I think moving to a roommate type model would remove most of that.

Good luck.


P.S. circling back to all the moving pieces don’t be surprised if you thoughts feeling and opinions on your wife and relationships don’t change in a 6 months or a yr.
 
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Jayke, Hi welcome to the forum.

I think there’s a a couple critical things that both you and your wife have over looked in coming up with the option list. The fact is the old marriage is dead or gone or will be as soon as you open up the relationship. I get neither you or she wants to blow up the family and go through the huge hassle and expense of divorce for a single issue. The solution is for everyone to settle and cobble.

The motivation for each person is to carry on with life with the least amount of “suck “/ negative consequences...in the mindset of the old marriage. Your wife gets to have or explore sex with women without blowing up her life and home and disrupting the kids....you get remain married and don’t have to move your shit out of the house and pay for lawyers and appraisals, etc etc etc etc etc and get to start a new porn hobby.

Both parties are saying and or doing things to hang on. Not from a genuine place of building a future.

Could this work for you both?? YES. It’s not that uncommon for sexual mismatch or dysfunction to bring people to this solution. The thing you both need to know is there is lots of moving parts and it doesn’t take much to knock a couple teeth off a gear.

Also I think you’re naive in thinking that in a yr or 2 you won’t be bargaining table discussing your wife’s need “ male love “.

Plus how do you enter into agreements with a person who is a know liar/ cheater. How much confidence do you have in anything she says or does ???

Unless of course all arraignments or agreements are viewed in the short term. Like today or near term.

One last thing. You might want to check out Poly Hell. Basically it’s demotion, displacement and intrusion and how these elements destabilize a relationship.
I think moving to a roommate type model would remove most of that.

Good luck.


P.S. circling back to all the moving pieces don’t be surprised if you thoughts feeling and opinions on your wife and relationships don’t change in a 6 months or a yr.

Jay

I'm going to chime in once more here and Dinged just gave you some good advice and brought up two points you need to really think about.
There is nothing quantitatively scientific about your situation. Your wife likes sex with BOTH men and women and has proven that recently with her actions, which are much more important than words.

So lets leave the cheating and lying aside for a second an address how naive you are being, not unlike a lot of men. Your wife is not the first who has used the claim of wanting to explore her bisexual side as a reason to "discover" polyamory. Now how any intelligent person can believe a woman who enjoys sex with men ( she already proved that to you, just forgot to tell you) will forego that, not have sex with you because she is not attracted to you, and also refrain from sex with men in the long term. Hence, Dinged's comment about short term agreements.

And guess what will most likely happen if you go the route of her dating women. One of her bisexual playmates ( who also will like sex with men) will have a cute boyfriend or husband somewhere along the line and you will either get cheated on again of whacked with having to deal with the sex with men all over again.

If she is committed as you to staying together and you do open the marriage, why is it too much for you to ask her to provide you sex even if she is not thrilled with it. Why does she get to do all of what she wants and you join the celibate crowd.

You are playing what is sometimes called the "pick me " game with a partner who is calling the shots . Remember, you did not cheat on her nor did you initiate the poly conversation.

You have two clear choices. You either open the relationship entirely or you separate. Unless she dates only bonifide lesbians who are repulsed by men, she will want sex with other men. The big question from her previous behavior is will you know about it.
 
One of her bisexual playmates ( who also will like sex with men) will have a cute boyfriend or husband somewhere along the line
My guess as well. Not because "that's how it has to be," rather repeatedly demonstrated from observing locally & reading threads here.

I've had a lover push me back with the "done with men" gag. And sure enough, she soon enough had sex with another guy. I didn't resent it, but when she tried to re-start things with me, I told her I expected her to explain her feeelings, before & after, so that I at least knew what I was setting myself up for.
 
This is what we did. We were not a polyamorous family as Jake seems to think, but were a suburban mono family - as typical as it gets. My husband was never poly and is never going to be poly. He's even a conservative Republican! But what we did was see ahead a few years and agreed that celibacy was NOT an option for either of us, so we found ways to adjust to the notion of new partners - which for us involved marital separation. I'll say again, that the choice to amicably separate is available to anyone who wants to make the choice. It's not some out-there concept that only a certain group of people or only poly people have access to.

Also, my husband did move out to his own place, but we kept the family home the same. The kids were not moved from one place to the other, as is typical in divorces. He comes here almost every day to visit and hangs out on weekends. In the early days, it was emotionally challenging, but we stuck with our commitment to kindness and stability - and we all adjusted. This is an example of what I mean by broadening our beliefs about what life can be. Why take kids back and forth between two households when dad can come visit every day in the same family home as always? Just because everyone else does the two homes, split holidays, visitation schedule doesn't mean that it's the only way to do it.

My husband is now married to a lovely woman who LOVES having sex with him and our family home was never disrupted or compromised. All because we didn't get derailed by what everyone else was doing, but instead looked to what was possible for us and to what we wanted. Now he and I are having great sex in loving relationships, the kids are happy because we are happy. I'm not trying to tell you to do it my way, Jayke, I'm just urging you not to sit in 40 years of celibacy (and failing) just because you perceive your choices to be limited. They are not.

This is a very workable solution. A former girlfriend had the same arrangement with her ex-husband. They maintained the family home. They initially split the times they would stay there and would stay with partners on the other days (both are poly). That kept everything friendly and now I think they even spend some time under that same roof together on occasion. The kids got to grow up with both of their parents with little disruption in their lives.
 
I wonder what happened in the relationship to cause Jake's wife to stop desiring him?

I was in a 30 year marriage and our sex lives went up and down. My ex was great in bed, so the good times were great. But there were things about his personality (low self esteem, a tendency towards passive aggressiveness, lying, gaslighting, extreme jealousy even of my platonic friends, co-dependency) that often turned me off.

I think this is a very important issue. Maybe the wife feels (as I did) like a bird in a gilded cage. A nice house, money for fancy vacations, money for non-public educational options for our 3 children, etc., but married to a person who was not a great match in all areas, leading to a poor or hot and cold sex life.

I am also bi (pan) sexual and poly at heart. So this was a major factor in our breakup...

We did wait to separate until the kids were almost grown. I'm not proud of this choice. They were 17, 20 and 22 when we split homes and eventually divorced a few years later. One of our kids said she'd wished we'd split years earlier. The other 2 wished we'd never split. But all 3 adjusted over time, once they saw mom and dad both had new partners that were making them happier. They didn't need to be around the fights we tried to hide. Kids always know. Kids will sense your incompatibility, frustrations, buried resentment. All the fancy schools and trips to Disneyland or surfing in Fiji or skiing in Colorado or whatever won't make up for parents who are frustrated with each other.

As for the idea that a mere 18 months of therapy, and a desperate perusal of "scientific relationship studies" has led you to believe wholeheartedly that both of you living for the next X number of years entirely celibate, or with wifey seeing other women (whom you admit threaten your relationship), and your disgust at imagining a penis in her vagina making her dating men off the list... like Angelina, I call bullshit.

I just came across this quote in a biography I am reading:

"Many hypotheses are needed to make a science and many discussions to achieve an average of truth."

An "average of truth." Average... a norm? You're perhaps looking at studies of "normal" straight people. Your wife is on the lesbian side of the Kinsey scale. But she also desires men. Do these studies include queer people, transgender people, polyamorous or kinky people at all?

You wouldn't have come to this poly board if you felt really satisfied with your therapies, your studies... You're looking for another option. You came here wanting us to confirm that YES, a marriage where the husband is celibate and the wife is only "allowed" to date/fuck other women is a very common and workable and great solution. But it isn't, and we won't sugar coat it for you.

You're being resistant to our "new" ideas. In fact, since you didn't get the confirmation you desired, I suspect you have left. But remember, polyamory is a brand new form of relationshipping, brought about by the women's movement. Women are demanding they have the autonomy to relate to others as independent humans, not as the property of ONE MAN (first father, then husband) who allows or does not allow them to make choices and have power in her life.

With your big block against her need to have sex with other MEN, you are being sexist. No way around that. You may be an atheist scientist, but you are not as educated or daring or respectful of others' autonomy as a polyamorous college kid or 20something.

Like others, I am curious to see where you and wife stand a year or two from now, as your sexual frustration builds and your self esteem as a desirable person continues to crumble. As your wife remains celibate and frustrated, or dates women and fall in deep NRE with one, or cheats again and secretly has sex with men...

I have deep compassion and sympathy for you! This isn't easy. We are in a new world. Back in the old days, if a wife cheated with either a man or a women, she'd be stoned to death, she'd be locked in a mental institution, given shock therapy, or given a lobotomy like the sister of John Kennedy. Thank goddess we've moved on from there.

It's a time of examining women's power, women's needs, women's desire, women's safety and autonomy. It's also a time where the Christian marriage, where the wife has to vow to "obey" the man til death do them part, has been circling the drain for several decades. Polyamory has risen from that. We here are pioneers. We aren't in any, or more than a handful of "scientific studies" yet.

Thanks for stopping by, and good luck.
 
Hi, Jayke,

Rather than quote many posts here, I'm just going to try to address major points without the quotes.

She's cheated on you. Twice? She now wants to stay married but with permission for herself, and only herself, to have sex with anyone she wants.

  • What's in this for you?
  • Why does she think, in any reality, that any man in his right mind would agree to this?
  • Isn't it convenient that she gets to have the home and frills and all the sex she wants with anyone she pleases while you sit at home taking care of the kids and providing for her?

You are concerned about how divorce will impact your children.

You are wise to think of this and look at the studies on it. No, it's not BS. Kids are impacted by divorce. My own children are in the very best possible divorce situation, 99% of the time they seem to have rolled with the punches and seem quite happy...but my daughter has still broken down crying about how we don't understand how hard this is for kids. Just because kids 'handle' it and even seem fine with it, doesn't mean they are. Just because they don't complain or voice their feelings doesn't mean they aren't hurting.

You're right that the extra 1000, 2000 a month, whatever it would be to provide a second home, provides a lot of quality experiences, sports camps, travel, viola lessons, all sorts of enriching things for kids that expand their opportunities and give them better lives, and I think that's been too lightly dismissed here.

Giving our children the best possible start in life is our job as parents. Having mind-blowing sex is not. Being a parent is a responsibility in a world that focuses too much on our 'rights' and 'needs' and too little on our responsibilities. I applaud you for taking that so seriously.

My feeling is that you do whatever it takes to try to hold the marriage together.

Poly as a solution:

Poly also impacts kids. There are some kids online who are speaking up about how their parents' open marriage has affected them.
  • How the absence of their mother, while she's off with various boyfriends, affects them.
  • How the revolving door of boyfriends/girlfriends who come into their lives for awhile, then disappear, affects them.
  • How parents too busy with dating lives to be at their events or get them to any outside activities affects them.
  • Or how the money that goes into the dating life rather than into sports or theater or music or travel affects them.
  • How the drama of new relationships and breakups affects their family life. How can a mother really be present to her child when she's in a constant cycle of NRE and breakup?
  • We have a member here whose wife left 'pictures' and e-mails with her boyfriend available on the computer which were seen by the daughter. That has affected her profoundly. Sure, we can just say 'well be more careful,' but the truth is, the more a parent is out and about having sex with other people, the greater the chances grow of a child seeing things they weren't meant to see. It's taking a chance that your kids will realize mom is having sex with other men and that will affect them.

They're generally called spoiled brats, unfortunately, and told they should be grateful their parents are so happy. No, it's our job as parents to care for our children, not the other way around.

At the same time, your wife has already cheated on you.

Dinged Heart and Sexy Serb are right in pointing this out. Realistically, you may not have the option of simply having a monogamous marriage. You're between a rock and a hard place, honestly. And here's the problem that hasn't been addressed:

You've listed six options, looking for the 'right' option or the 'best' or a 'good' option. There are no good or guaranteed or easy options on that list.

You are looking at a tough and uncertain road no matter what you do, and unless she changes her ways and takes the kids' well-being into account, you are almost certainly looking at a future where your kids are hurt by her choices.

This is not entirely in your hands.

Is she willing to go to counseling? Does she appear to have a genuine interest in stopping the lying and cheating? Has she shown any real remorse for it?

It doesn't seem to me she has, if her solution is that she gets to keep sleeping with anyone she pleases while you stay home being monogamous and never having sex.

I would suggest you also look for an infidelity support group to sort through some of the possible futures you're looking at, in trying to stay with a repeat cheater before making decisions.

But my suggestion at this point is to tell her that her choices are impacting your children, that cheating, poly, and divorce will all have their consequences on your children, that she must make her choices about how she wants her life to impact her children.

Do not agree to limited poly/open only on her part. In addition to the above issues, how can that not lead to resentment on your part, which will likely lead to divorce anyway? I don't think fully open poly is any better for your kids--to then have both parents pre-occupied with dating and her in NRE and you dealing with jealousy and also trying to find someone to feel things are even and looking for sex.

I believe that no matter what you do, your realistic end point is either your wife realizes her choices are impacting her children and commits to a monogamous marriage, or a divorce, if not now, then down the road when these things become intolerable.

And in truth, it largely rests with your wife's choice to either stop her cheating, to realize marriages and sexual desire and attraction go through ups and downs, and recommit to you, the marriage, and your children's best possible life.
 
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WhatHappened, I do not disagree with some of what you said.

However, I think you are leaving out an important part. You are stressing what is best for the kids, painting the idea of polyamory very dark.

I don't disagree with that entirely, but it's also a dark world for kids to live in where their parents have a large basic incompatibility as far as romantic sexual love. They will mirror their parents' relationship style in their own lives. Put up with more than they should from a partner. Or avoid relationships altogether.

So staying together for the kids is not really the most noble choice.

As far as kids realizing their parents have a sex life, either with each other or with others... As something they "shouldn't see" or acknowledge or know about... Isn't this something of the past we need to let go of? We live in a society stemming from extremely repressed Calvinistic Puritan roots. Where women were barely considered human, where the question of whether they even had souls like men do, was not resolved.

In other cultures, certainly in indigenous societies where families share one dwelling, or live in large buildings housing several families, kids see and hear the adults having sex. Humans have lived that way for a million years. Humans have only had nuclear families with private homes and separate bedrooms, for a tiny brief window of time. (Even as recently as the 1930s Great Depression, families lived with kids and adults and generations all mixed together with little privacy.) The idea we need to protect the children from seeing, or knowing about, adult sexuality is bogus.

I am of course not saying kids need to HAVE sex with adults forced on them, not at all. But it's not the end of the world to let kids understand adults have sex, sexual desires, frustrations, satisfaction, ups and downs, etc. It's not the end of the world for kids to see their parents fall out of love, to outgrow each other, to change in ways that pull them apart.

Divorce is extremely common. 50% (more or less) of all kids will experience a divorce of their parents. Sadly the media is still pushing the idea of One True Love til death do us part, fairy tale wedding, minimal problems that are always worked through, onto us and our kids. That's more fun to watch than the reality. Marriages that do last til death are often, if not even usually! unhappy ones, that kids do not benefit from seeing, dealing with, even trying to "help" the parents get along better.

I also strongly disagree with your words that this is all on the lyin cheatin wife. We don't know her side of the story. We don't know why she lost desire for Jake. This is both their problem to deal with. It's not on either of them to make all the "sacrifices."
 
But remember, polyamory is a brand new form of relationshipping, brought about by the women's movement. Women are demanding they have the autonomy to relate to others as independent humans, not as the property of ONE MAN (first father, then husband) who allows or does not allow them to make choices and have power in her life.

Sorry, Im calling bull shit on this. This nonsense that just because a man does not want his wife fucking other men makes him a radical sexist is such crap. A relationship between two people is not supposed to be where a man considers a woman property NOR is it where a woman considers a man just an inconvenience whose feelings should be ignored for the pursuit of some political agenda. There was just a post recently by a man whose wife has been banging
her old boyfriend for a year and when he finally connected with someone and she had a little boyfriend trouble she wanted to end poly right there. no one jumped on her for a "one vagina policy" or called her "sexist.

Now back to Jay here, Jay every thing in life is not measured like a chemical formula. If you are still around, i would read what WHAT HAPPENED wrote to you regarding your kids. No one here knows your wife or your kids and no one here can predict exactly what will happen. The majority of people in this world will most likely agree that having children in their formative years watching their parents date other people and being exposed to this probably is not great. That does not mean it cannot work and its like playing the odds in Vegas.
I hope Gala Girl chips in here at some point because I believe not only will she give you measured advice but I believe she has carefully evaluated with her husband the effects on children and has closed her marriage until the kids are grown.

The big elephant in the room still is that your wife has NOT been truthful with you about anything, she has gone behind your back and in most cases past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior unless something alters the cause of that behavior. You need to figure out why she has been disingenuous with you and since her cheating was INFIDELITY not poly a therapist who specializes in that probably would be your better choice.
My question wold be what agreement or choice that you make right now would you TRULY believe that your wife would honor for more than a short time.
 
There are some kids online who are speaking up about how their parents' open marriage has affected them.
I am very interested in seeing these articles/studies/forums. Please provide the links.

As well, I am also interested in hearing from the OTHER kids: those who think nonmonogamy was a good thing, & those who really don't much care one way or another. Certainly you know of such information.

Though you avoid mentioning it, there is going to be a high degree of self-reporting bias, right? Like, someone new who logs onto Polyamory.com & reads about all the griping & whining & complaining & hand-wringing -- & is kinda clueless about bias effects -- would come to the conclusion that nonmonogamous people are a just bunch of self-absorbed goofballs, overgrown spoiled brats avoiding emotional maturity. After all, only a tiny minority are lah-de-dah airheads perpetually spreading sunshine everywhere. ;)
 
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