Limited Polyamory

Hello,

I'm hoping for a bit of wisdom, or at least a sanity check!

I'm male, 40, married and straight. My wife is 39 and recently declared as bisexual (I was entirely unaware when we got married in our mid-twenties).

I won't go into the details now (although I can, if it helps), but basically our position is this:

(a) We are very happy together generally, with sex/sexuality issues the only problem area. We are both dead set on remaining together.

(b) My wife is definitely bisexual rather than gay, as she had a short affair a little over a year ago with a male, as well as with a female a month or so before that. Our relationship was in dire straits at the time, much of which was my fault, and all is forgiven now!

(c) Our sex life is infrequent, and poor quality, because she is not really sexually attracted to me anymore. We spent years trying to fix this, but its just not fixable.

(d) She would like to be able to have the relationship open on her side, to be able to sleep with women. I think I can live with this, although I have to say I'm probably not built for non-monogamy so jealousy is likely to be a bit of an issue for me.

(e) She would ideally also like to be able to sleep with other men, although she is less fussed about this. I don't think I could live with this. I'm not sure I can explain why this is different for me, but it is. I am in a position to judge my own feelings from this based on experience, since her affair with a man hit me MUCH harder, even though it was actually a lot less significant in terms of scope.

(f) Although I'd be happy with just my wife if she was actually interested in me, as she isn't, I feel like I would like to be able to sleep with other women too. My wife isn't keen on this, and particularly not if she is restricted not to be able to sleep with other men.

So...what do we do?!

The options seem to be:

(1) Remain monogamous - this would be "fair", but we would both be unfulfilled sexually.

(2) Open things her side, but only for women, and keep things closed my side - this would be manageable on my side from a jealousy point of view and would let her satisfy her same-sex-attraction, but would not give her as much freedom as she would ideally like, and would leave me unfulfilled sexually. It's not exactly "unfair" on me, since presumably I would be allowed to sleep with men - but being straight this is obviously no use to me.

(3) Open things up both sides, but again only for women - this would be much better for me than option (2), but has the risk of being unfair on her - why should she be restricted but not me?

(4) Open things up fully on both sides. This is "fairest", but I have to be honest that I'm not sure I could cope with it.

(5) Limit our outside sexual encounters to threesomes with another woman. I'd probably be happy with this (and it would probably ease my jealousy/fears since there would be no "unknown" element), but my wife would feel a bit "constrained" if I was present.

(6) We separate, and find partners better suited. But as I mentioned (and we've talked about this) we would rather stay together and stick with option (1) than do that.

Does anyone have any advice/experiences to share?

Thanks very much
 
Hi, Jayke.
I understand this is new territory, and as such, can be scary and confusing. You and your wife do not wish to break up because on most levels you get along just fine, but you are both unfulfilled sexually, as things stand.

Let me ask you... how much reading/research have you done into polyamory? Have you read the "essentials", such as Opening Up, The Ethical Slut, or scrolled through websites such as More Than Two?

I'd say that, aside from in-depth discussion with your wife... this should be your first step to understanding that - should you go down this path - your old marriage is essentially null and void, even if you don't part ways, and you'll both be choosing to enter a whole new relationship. This could be both challenging and exciting.

Once again, IF you decide to open up your marriage to poly, don't expect that you won't, or shouldn't feel ANY jealousy at all. Woman or man, certain aspects of your wife's relationships with her other partner/s will probably provoke a certain amount of jealousy... or, put more accurately, insecurity and feelings of doubt, not being "enough", and competitiveness (especially given that you've admitted she's not sexually attracted to you anymore).

I'd advise you (both) to put in the time and work necessary to fully understand what it is you're potentially embarking upon. Communicate your own boundaries, limits and try to reach some agreements once you've found common ground. You will probably make some mistakes along the way, but if you truly love and care for each other, and are determined to work through the problems, they shouldn't prove insurmountable.

However... take great care to treat anyone ELSE you introduce into either of your lives as real people, with thoughts and feelings and desires of their own - not expendable sex toys or "experiments".

**************

If I'm going to be perfectly honest, I think perhaps your romantic/sexual relationship as a married couple has run its course.

There is great potential for you two to make each other quite miserable simply by refusing to let go of each other... despite the fact that, as lovers, you're obviously incompatible.

It IS possible and perhaps even the wisest move at this juncture, to try to transition into "exes who remain good friends" - possibly even non-sexual life partners, living in the same house. Either of these might be good options if you have children in the home and your friendship remains functional and intact.

That way, you can both move on romantically/sexually with other people who are more compatible with your current sexual needs.

However, if you're both adamantly against separating, even nominally... let's have a look at your numbered list:

(1) I don't think this option is tenable anymore.

(2) I don't think this is going to work for you long-term. How will you deal with knowing your wife has another lover and is getting HER sexual needs fulfilled, while you remain essentially celibate... for the rest of your life? :confused:

(3) This may be a workable option. However, since your wife has already had one affair with a man (as well as another with a woman), what assurances could she give you, or would you require, in order to be assured she would not stray again with a male lover, should she feel too "constrained" after some time had passed?

(4) Other than option (6), separating, which I've already discussed above, fully opening on both sides seems the most feasible long-term option. You would BOTH need to do a lot of emotional labour, reading and have many open and honest discussions before deciding to take this step. If neither of you have seriously considered ethical polyamory before, understand that it's not for the faint-hearted.

That said, the jealousy CAN be worked through if you want this badly enough. My relationship is living proof of that. (I am the hinge in a poly V where the other two partners - one male and one female - used to be involved with each other, but are no longer in a relationship. Jealous and insecurity has cropped up a LOT. I won't go into it all here, but feel free to read my blog, The Accidental Polyamorist.)

(5) While there is nothing wrong with threesomes and group sex, per se, I personally feel it's highly unnatural, and yes, constraining, if this is the ONLY way either of you are going to "allow" each other to enjoy physical intimacy with other partners. And not only awkward and constraining for YOU two, but also for the "third", who, as I pointed out earlier, is also a REAL person with feelings, needs and desires of their own.

Group sex may be a fun diversion or "extra" in a couple's sexual repertoire, but if it's going to be the ONLY way YOU are going to get to be sexual with a woman for the foreseeable future... AND the only way your wife is going to be "allowed" to explore her bisexual or poly side... I can guarantee the whole house of cards will come tumbling down in the not too distant future.

***********

Personally, I see (4) or (6) as the most tenable long term option, with (3) an outside chance of succeeding for some time.
 
Thank you.

That is very helpful. I really appreciate your input.

I'll have a think about what you've said and will comment later with some further thoughts.
 
Our sex life is infrequent, and poor quality, because she is not really sexually attracted to me anymore. We spent years trying to fix this, but its just not fixable.
May I ask you about what you've tried? I mean, actually, you don't have to tell me, but if you've only been trying among yourselves with no outside input, you might actually not have done as much as you think you did.

If it is indeed so that the attraction is gone (and perhaps there are other problems in the relationship that you don't mention as significant), or if it's so that there was not much attraction in the first place, I tend to agree with Lunabunny.

However if your relationship is loving otherwise and you still have a strong pull to stay together, maybe there are things conducive to attraction that you haven't thought of. I'm not an expert, but things such as:
  • Radical honesty, particularly about what doesn't work in the relationship, and working to fix those problems.
  • Freeing up time and energy to date, not being overworked
  • Physical separation, less time together, less non-sexual touch, more of an independent life, and...
  • ... pretty much any change you do for yourself, to be more alive or to produce something good, any inner or outer work you do that is worth of admiration, will help your confidence and general well-being and make you more desirable
  • Talking to a relationship expert or sex therapist in real life about your particular situation
  • Adventures you do together, anything where you try something new and step out of your comfort zone, be it camping or
  • 'Westernized' tantra, relationship workshops, kink meetups, or any kind of milder non-monogamy (cuddling, massage, watching others, light swinging) to get you into the sex positive space and get used to all that stuff

Of course non will help if what your wife really wants is moving on, but they're worth considering before you turn your life upside down by either polyamory or a break up.
 
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Lunabunny:

Yes, I have read those books, and looked at that website.

To give a little more back-story, immediately after my wife had her "affair" with a woman, I agreed to temporarily open things up so that she could explore her newly discovered sexuality. At the time, she thought she was just straight-up (excuse the pun) gay. I kind of hoped she would decide she was bisexual, but thought it unlikely.

However, I insisted at the time that I should be able to sleep with women too (if I'm honest, and with hindsight, that was mostly because I was angry and aggrieved at her affair and what I saw at the time as a marriage based on a lie, and "wanted something for myself"), and that she was limited to "women only" on the grounds that it was supposed to be to explore her same sex attraction. To be honest, I didn't think she would be interested in sleeping with men anyway, given how convinced she seemed to be that she was gay.

Anyway, bizarrely, her sleeping with women transformed our sex life, and for one month (while she was sleeping with other women) she was incredibly passionate with me. This didn't seem consistent with her "gay" conclusion. I began to wonder if this could work after all.

Unfortunately, she then slept with a man, and I found out, flipped out and insisted we close the marriage down again. Our sex life died again completely, and hasn't recovered.

That all sounds pretty grim, doesn't it?!

However, we've had lots of therapy and countless heart-to-hearts since then (nearly 18 months ago now), and basically forgiven each other our various transgressions. Our relationship (in platonic and affectionate terms) is in really great shape.

But her sexual interest in me has never recovered.

Part of me does hope that if she is allowed to sleep with women that she might recover her interest in me. If so, I'd probably be perfectly happy having things open on her side only (but only to see women, not men). I would imagine its unlikely though, and is not the reason I am considering it.

Tinwen:

I think the above gives you some idea of what we've done. We have had a lot of outside help - hundreds of hours of therapy, residential sessions with marriage counsellors and sex therapists, you name it.

On your suggestions, we've done most of that stuff, but I really appreciate the suggestions.

Thanks very much to both of you.
 
Hello jaykeonline,

I am inclined to suggest you try opening the marriage up to both men and women. Work towards managing the jealousy/insecurity that may crop up. Try to determine where those feelings are coming from. Is it fear? hurt? resentment? revulsion? something else? Maybe there's an alternative way to get your needs met.

It sounds like you've already dedicated a lot of thought, discussion, and research into this. I hope this forum can help you to take the next step.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thanks Kevin,

The question of "why jealousy/insecurity" is an interesting one.

If we ignore the "women only" vs "men and women" thing for a moment:

Insecurity: I do have some practical concerns on this - my wife has a history of strong crushes on (mainly) women, and opening up would inevitably increase the likelihood of one of those maturing into something which threatens our marriage. I suppose one could argue that it would "happen anyway", but I'm pretty sceptical of that. My main concern there would be for our three children - right now we are throwing everything (financially, practically and emotionally) into giving them the best upbringing we can, including living in a nice house, in a nice area, going on cultural holidays around the world and putting them through private schools. So, I really wouldn't want to risk that for the next 10 years until they have all left school.

Jealousy: To some degree, this is human nature, although I'm sure it can be trained to some extent - I would imagine there is a fair amount of experience on this board. In my case, there is a heightened risk of jealousy because I actually KNOW that the reason my wife would be with other people is at least partly because she isn't sexually attracted to me. That's a bitter pill to swallow even in monogamy, my concern would it may be amplified under non-monogamy. I suppose this does relate to resentment too - fundamentally I would like nothing more than to have my wife desire me, and it would be very hard NOT to resent a person she actually does desire instead.

The "female only" issue is more of a mind-bender. I don't think it relates to jealousy or insecurity. In terms of insecurity, women are more of a risk to me than men, as she is (generally) more attracted to women than men. In terms of jealousy, this is hard to gauge, but I don't think that's the deciding factor.

I suspect (although don't known) that the difference comes down to my own sexual orientation. If I was bisexual, I don't think I would have the same problem. I suspect that the way I feel at the thought of my wife having sex with a man is precisely the same way I feel at the thought of having sex with a man myself. In other words, its fairly visceral, and probably not trainable.

One quick question - you said in your message "Maybe there's an alternative way to get your needs met." - I was wondering what you meant by that? I'm always open to suggestions!

Thanks,

Jayke
 
Re:
"You said in your message 'Maybe there's an alternative way to get your needs met.' I was wondering what you meant by that?"

Like, if you had a need that was met by having your wife only date women, maybe that need could be met some other way. Although, the way you're describing it, it almost sounds like an orientation type of thing. It's not like I could say, you have a need that is met by only having sex with women, maybe that need could be met elsewhere (and thus you could have sex with men). So that idea kind of falls flat.

What are the chances you could compartmentalize? Like, maybe your wife is having sex with men but you're just not thinking about it? You're not there, so you're not picturing it. Is there any way this might be possible? Would it help?

I have to say, it sounds like nonmonogamy would complicate your life, more than it would simplify things. In other words, you're being generous just by letting her date women, never mind men.

And she's balking at you dating women!
Sounds frustrating.
Kevin T.
 
I am sorry you struggle. I mean all this kindly, ok? :eek: It may not be what you want to hear.

I would not do option 2-5. You don't sound esp keen on any of those. More importantly? You guys don't sound healthy right now. Why drag other people into that? Whether it is open just for her, only for women, or both sides or whatever. "Relationship broken, add more people" does not work. Other people should not be used as "bandaids" so that you and wife can keep going with a wonky marriage and enable you to avoid addressing it. I think it is best to resolve that issue FIRST.

I would also not do option 1 if you have been trying this long and it is not working and it is unfulfilling. I can see giving marriage repair a good try. You have DONE it. You could spend a year, maybe even 5 years trying. But you cannot spend 50, 500 years on it. Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one.

I would go with option 6 and part ways as peacefully as possible. I know breaking up stinks, but in this case it sounds like the best and kindest solution for all to me. Then you guys do not continue to hurt in the wonky marriage, unfulfilled. And then other people aren't getting hurt in the process.

I'd be happy with just my wife if she was actually interested in me. She isn't.

Our sex life is infrequent, and poor quality, because she is not really sexually attracted to me anymore. We spent years trying to fix this, but its just not fixable.

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think I could remain in a sexless marriage where my spouse isn't into me any more.

Why are you willing to? :confused:

We have had a lot of outside help - hundreds of hours of therapy, residential sessions with marriage counsellors and sex therapists, you name it

Esp when it's been years and hundreds of hours of therapy trying to fix to no avail. How much more time do you guys have to clock before finally saying "We have tried long enough and done all we can do. We have to accept this is not working any more" to yourselves and to each other? :(

I wonder if you guys are in the bargaining stage of grief. Trying every which way to keep making the kite that won't fly any more keep on flying anyway. Are you?

This considering Open thing to me sounds like grasping at straws rather than finally accepting you guys are no longer a good fit as married people. :(

She would like to be able to have the relationship open on her side, to be able to sleep with women.

She would ideally also like to be able to sleep with other men

If you guys part amicably and focus on being good exes, friends, and good co-parents? She can have that.

And you can move on to be with someone who is actually interested in being with you romantically.

Then you BOTH get to move on toward future happiness while still maintaining the family.

This would be a horrible thing because.... why? :confused:

(1) Remain monogamous - this would be "fair", but we would both be unfulfilled sexually.

(6) We separate, and find partners better suited. But as I mentioned (and we've talked about this) we would rather stay together and stick with option (1) than do that.

Really? You guys want to pick out MORE of unfulfilling option 1 rather than part ways and find more suited companions and risk being happy? Why is this? :confused:

And stay "together" in what way? It HAS to be in a married shape way? You guys are dead set against being together as "good exes, friends, and coparents" shape? Why? :confused:

What is so horrible about showing your children how adults can handle a good break up so they know what to do if they ever find themselves in those shoes as grown ups?

Wouldn't parting ways be the most fair? Rather than option 1 where both are equally unfulfilled... go for option 6 so both equally get a shot a future happiness?

Esp when being "married together" isn't sounding like it's been working out so hot? There's been cheating affairs, years of struggle on the sex compatibility, and then considering Open only for her but not you. Even Open on both sides isn't sounding like your cup of tea either.

Why's it so important to bend yourselves into pretzels to keep the marriage shape going when it doesn't sound particularly joyous for either party?

Rather than become willing to let the marriage shape go and become willing to allow the relationship shape to change into something that fits better? :confused:

What do you value more? The actual health and well being of the people? Or maintaining a marriage shape even if it is unfulfilling/hurting the people in it?

However, we've had lots of therapy and countless heart-to-hearts since then (nearly 18 months ago now), and basically forgiven each other our various transgressions. Our relationship (in platonic and affectionate terms) is in really great shape.

If this is the relationship today? Why is that terrible?

Why not be ok being that? Being platonic, affectionate exes and friends? And drop the marriage part that isn't working? So that you can both ALSO find romantic fulfillment with more suited partners since you are not finding it with each other?

I wonder if you are coming at this thing from the POV of "Which of these is the least miserable so I can suck it up better and not be TOO miserable?" rather than coming at it like "What choice (even if painful in the short term) can I make that leads to hope of future happiness in the long term?"

Are you?

I am concerned for both of your well being. :(

Galagirl
 
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I agree with GalaGirl. You guys are a long, long way from any kind of non-monogamy. It sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you to have a happy life together.
 
I too agree with Galagirl.

Poly is only going to destroy your marriage.
 
Hi galagirl, and thanks for your honest input.

Both my wife and I, independently and together, have mulled over the question of whether to stay together.

Not everything in life has a neat, or "right" solution. Sometimes things are going to suck, in one way or another, whatever you do. Your decision then becomes in which way would you like your life to suck.

It's very obvious that there is no way that our marriage can "not suck" sexually. If sex were the decisive factor, then the correct course of action is clear: separation.

It's also very obvious (to us - it hasn't formed part of this post so far) that breaking up will have negative connotations for our children, and for our enjoyment of our children as a family. I know you can "make these things work", but it already feels to me that their childhood is rushing by, and I'm not willing to give up one day of living in the same house as them.

At the moment, the choice is very clear. We "make do" sexually, and enjoy our amazing family life, and all the incredible adventures we have together.

Even as far as our own relationship is concerned, I am far from certain that I would sacrifice being with my wife with no sex in order for a relationship which is sexually fulfilling. But that's a decision for another day, when the children are grown.

All I was really looking for was a way to make our sex lives "suck less". From the feedback here, it looks that perhaps going poly may make things worse. But hearing that from people here is incredibly valuable to me, so thanks everyone! I'm glad that I at least looked into it.
 
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Jayke, the below is purely food for thought in light of your latest post:

I understand your reasoning for wanting to "stay together for the children" (a common refrain where there is marital disharmony on some level) - and also because, as you perceive it, your marriage does NOT "suck" in areas other than the sexual.

However, after numerous years of unhappiness, and hour upon hour of counselling, it is very clear this incompatibility isn't going to magically disappear, as other posters have said.

Ending the romantic/sexual side of your marriage - including officially divorcing - whilst you each REMAIN living in the SAME household, might be a workable option for you two, depending on your personalities and other factors I cannot speak to, such as the ages of your children, details of your personal history, how well you generally get along as "friends", if you're each responsible with money... etc.

Granted, such an arrangement may be complicated at first - somewhat awkward, and emotionally and logistically challenging - but is still doable, ultimately, if that is what you BOTH agree upon.

IF you should choose to end the sexual/romantic side of your relationship (it HAS already ended, of course - but I'm talking about verbally putting a "full stop" at the end of that metaphorical chapter) yet choose to remain living together in the same house until the children are older - I'd strongly suggest keeping other relationships away from the home.

I'm not suggesting you lie to your children about where you and their mother are "at", however, this kind of living arrangement - while practical in many ways - can be an emotional minefield for new partners AND for yourselves, at least in the early stages.

Certainly, it'd be less likely to faze potential partners who classify themselves as polyamorous, non monogamous, or relationship anarchists - for obvious reasons. However, if either of you found partners who were mono and desired the whole relationship escalator business... living with an "ex" would add yet another layer of complication, I understand that.

Anyway, it is clear from your later posts/amendments that this is NOT one of your preferred outcomes (i.e. separating, even if you choose to remain close friends or living together), but I mention it here as food for thought in any case. You may want to run this prospect by your wife.
 
It's also very obvious (to us - it hasn't formed part of this post so far) that breaking up will have negative connotations for our children, and for our enjoyment of our children as a family. I know you can "make these things work", but it already feels to me that their childhood is rushing by, and I'm not willing to give up one day of living in the same house as them.

At the moment, the choice is very clear. We "make do" sexually, and enjoy our amazing family life, and all the incredible adventures we have together.
I am glad you and your wife are on the same page here. Being on the same page is imho the most important aspect which allows you to continue with any kind of relationship here.
From the feedback here, it looks that perhaps going poly may make things worse. But hearing that from people here is incredibly valuable to me, so thanks everyone! I'm glad that I at least looked into it.
Yes. It might. Sexuality is an incredibly powerful force. If the two of you can't use it to help bind your relationship ... and then someone comes along with whom you (or your wife) connect sexually ... you may easily find yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place, unwilling to give up either relationship and just trying to manage the stress that you experience as the hinge who's feeling torn between family and sexual fulfilment, between the needs of two important women in your life, and the stress it brings to your wife's life to manage jealousy and not having you as readily available. You'll not be in a much different situation then if you had a secret mistress - except for the secret. And, you hurt the third person in the process too.

These kinds of situations arise from going "poly" while not being fully poly-minded, not shifting your entire conceptual framework around relationships, holding to the way things 'should' be - which apparently you are doing very strongly. Poly requires a shift away from the couple being the basic unit. If traditional family is a strong value of yours, don't go down the polyamory route.
All I was really looking for was a way to make our sex lives "suck less".
All that being said, I still think you could carefully explore some kinds of soft non-monogamy if you both are up for that and feel that you're willing to stop in time not to hurt each other again. Your wife's enjoyment of sexuality with you returned when she dated a woman, and I don't think that's unimportant.

To understand where I'm coming from, I'm mostly monogamous sexually, but I have great experience with introductory courses to (western) "tantra" - they actually practically teach you how to accept more of your sexuality and deal with attraction, there's some touch (not sex) with others, but it all happens in a ritual setting and a restricted time-frame which helps the jealousy a great deal. They teach boundaries. It's a nice way to explore how far you can go.
You could maybe also ask in the swingers community if the people there successfully deal with problems similar to yours. I'm not part of one, so I don't know, but I hear they are more couple-focused.

Of course, you still run risks down that route. Your wife has already broken agreements and may prefer to non let herself be tempted at all. You may wanna avoid opportunities to fall in love at all costs. It's just a suggestion on how to explore your attraction to others in a gentler way.
 
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Glad it helped some and you took it in the spirit intended.

I really am concerned you guys might be bending yourselves into pretzels. :(

It's very obvious that there is no way that our marriage can "not suck" sexually. If sex were the decisive factor, then the correct course of action is clear: separation.

What IS the decisive factor(s)? The kids?

It's also very obvious (to us - it hasn't formed part of this post so far) that breaking up will have negative connotations for our children, and for our enjoyment of our children as a family.

If the relationship today (in platonic and affectionate terms) is in really great shape... why would a divorce have negative connotations for the children and prevent family enjoyment? Rather than the relationship staying in great shape and family life continuing? Could you be willing to clarify?

At the moment, the choice is very clear. We "make do" sexually, and enjoy our amazing family life, and all the incredible adventures we have together.

I guess I don't see what one thing has to do with another. Or why you each cannot have romantic partners who are actually into each of you, AND enjoy amazing family life AND the adventures you have together.

I know divorced families who are quite tight. In fact, one divorced couple? Have next door houses, and the ex-husband is the godfather of the former wife's new son with her new husband.

Another does not live next door, but in the same school district, and the shared child can bike to either dad's house or mom's apartment after school. Or both.

If cohabitation post divorce is a goal? One of you could take a year lease on an apartment. Just to give each time apart to heal post divorce, and def put some closure on that chapter. Then move back in and start a a new chapter. Or seek a "next-door" or "practically next door" situation.

If you are mostly staying together "for the children" -- does divorce HAVE to mean you stop being there for your kids, stop parenting and stop participating in family life?:confused: It doesn't have to. It might change some of HOW you practice family togetherness, but it doesn't have to end it.

On the flip side... being married does not "automatically" mean awesome parenting.

My spouse is an adult child of divorce. He and all his siblings wish his parents had NOT stayed together "for the children" and just split up way sooner than the youngest graduating HS. The misery was clear to all of them and it just dragged on and colored their childhoods/adulthoods.

Mine should have divorced but stayed married. My childhood is nothing great to speak of. It was largely "dad in name only" -- he was there like a lump on a log. He hardly ever spent time with us kids, and he never did anything like "amazing family time" or "adventures." It too was misery that dragged on.


All I was really looking for was a way to make our sex lives "suck less".

If she's just not into you as a lover, she's not. You cannot force attraction.

Our sex life is infrequent, and poor quality, because she is not really sexually attracted to me anymore

One way for it to suck less is to stop sharing sex together. If all that happens is "meh" -- stop doing it. Then neither of you has to deal with that meh any more.

Another way for your sex lives to suck less is to seek partners elsewhere, but in a forthright way. No more cheating affairs. No doing Open/Poly if you don't love to do Open/Poly. Could call it "separated" instead if you are going to date other people outside the marriage and are not divorced yet.

My in-laws? Both had a series of cheating affairs during their marriage. That brought a set of other problems that could have been avoided had they just separated/divorced and dated other people more forthrightly. But nope. They were gonna stay married "for the children" even though they both sought ways to escape the marriage. So it was like the adults could escape it but the kids could not.

Even as far as our own relationship is concerned, I am far from certain that I would sacrifice being with my wife with no sex in order for a relationship which is sexually fulfilling. But that's a decision for another day, when the children are grown.

Why another day?

You are not willing to expand your definition of "close family" to something other than the nuclear model at this time?

I could be wrong but it is almost like you guys are willing to put all this energy into discussing the pros and cons of all those 1-6 options... but don't want to look at changing family models and consider the pros/cons of that.

Not everything in life has a neat, or "right" solution. Sometimes things are going to suck, in one way or another, whatever you do. Your decision then becomes in which way would you like your life to suck.

I agree. Not all choices in life are "win or lose." Some are "this stinks, and this stinks. So which stinks less?"

I think reconsidering how you define "family" and "good parenting" and "healthy divorce" could suck less than "remain in unfulfilling marriage for the children til they are grown and THEN make decisions about the state of the marriage."

Though I guess it depends. If we're talking 1-2 more years and the youngest moves out? Since you have clocked this many years already maybe a bit more isn't a big deal. But if you have a long ways to go... that might give pause for thought.

If after all the talking, you are not willing to do 6 and separate? Then I guess you could try a limited 1 as a second choice. Try that for a year and then reassess if that's still be best option. Take it year by year. But not take it til "last child moves out." That might be too long a timeframe before reassessment comes round again. Annual assessment might be better. If 1 still works, renew for another year.

And then as a third option? Possibly 4. Open on both sides, you stop sharing sex together, and you each see who you want to see. Though I would call it "separated" rather than "open" or "poly."

Sometimes it takes being in another relationship before one becomes willing to part with the old one. I have a friend who so hates to be alone that had she and her husband not tried Open? She would not have found new BF. And without having a new BF to turn to? She would not have left the husband even though they clearly were not a match. They were looking for Open to enable them to keep going together. Really what it did was make it more clear that they needed to be apart. Not what they bargained for, and it came at a cost of hurting each other and other people and a BIG MESS... but it brought the necessary parting. Today they are each married to other people and seem happier.

I still think they would have been better off being more honest with themselves and each other from the start and calling it "we are separated now" and moving on to date other people more forthrightly. Rather than calling it "we are doing open marriage" and dating other people under that banner. Because for the other people that were drawn in to that network? They thought they were signing up for one kind of thing, but really it was another kind of thing and they were caught in the cross fire of the BIG MESS. It was kinda flying under false colors.

So I would say 6 is best.

Then limited 1, if you cannot bear to go directly to 6 at this time.

Then 4 -- like you guys are separated as a third choice. (I'm not seeing it on the list of choices though.)

Do not do 4 like you guys are trying to do open/poly. It isn't like you want to do Open or Poly because you love to do Open or Poly. You seem to be looking at it to help make an unfulfilling marriage more tolerable and/or to make your sex lives "suck less." I don't think presenting as "Open/Poly" is being honest and forthright with your dating potentials when done like that.

I also don't see how that would be attractive for healthy people to want to get involved in. I think healthy people would go "I'm interested in dating you, but not while it is all messy like that. Call me when you are actually sorted out."

Galagirl
 
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If the relationship today (in platonic and affectionate terms) is in really great shape... why would a divorce have negative connotations for the children and prevent family enjoyment? Rather than the relationship staying in great shape and family life continuing? Could you be willing to clarify?
GalaGirl, if your question is genuine and not just food for thought, I guess I don't see what you don't see. Not everyone can maintain a good relationship after a breakup. People who've been intimate in a relationship that's no more have to close down to protect. With my ex, despite efforts being made to stay friends, communication has deteriorated to a degree where only online feels safe - and we were not even married. Talking together, being present, that's opening old wounds despite years of distance and effort made to heal. It feels like a minefield. I for myself can't imagine maintaining family atmosphere after a divorce - polite but distant, yes, but family? Hardly.
I'm not saying everyone has to end up not being able to meet their ex on a friendly level after a break up, but it's definitely a risk you're running when separating.

I'm sure Jakeonline will speak for himself, I don't intend to put words into his mouth, it's just not the first time I wonder about "transitioning to friends and co-parents" being suggested as a solution. There's just no guarantee that will work for people, and the odds ... well I don't really know the numbers, but my impression is they're not that great.
 
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No, not everyone can maintain a good relationship post divorce. But neither can everyone maintain a good relationship post cheating.

If they managed post cheating to keep a good relationship, and they are managing despite poor sex life to keep a good relationship, and they are managing through these challenging talks to keep a good relationship... I assume that they could keep on managing and keep on having the good relationship. They have come through so much already.

I'm trying to understand from Jakeonline's POV what would be changing here if they went with 6 which makes them prefer 1 instead.

The only thing I saw mentioned was the cohabitating with the kids that he would not be happy to give up. But divorced coparents can share a house or be neighbors or almost neighbors. I don't see that as insurmountable.

Galagirl
 
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People who've been intimate in a relationship that's no more have to close down to protect. ...I for myself can't imagine maintaining family atmosphere after a divorce - polite but distant, yes, but family? Hardly.

It's not the norm for sure, but I can tell you that it's absolutely possible to divorce and maintain a family atmosphere. My husband and I broke up over sexuality and true, we had a rough year or so, but we never devolved into closing down, anger and guilt. If we had those feelings, they moved on by pretty quickly. People assume that divorce is hard on kids, but it's not the divorce itself that is hard on the kids - it's the parents. We found that our kids were just fine because we were just fine (overall) and made kindness to each other our number one priority. I don't mean to minimize the pain of the end of a marriage - it's a huge change - but the choice to move on to other partners need not be horrifyingly painful and it definitely does not need to fracture the family if the married couple is committed to honesty, kindness and generosity. My husband is now re-married, I have a wonderful BF and we couldn't be happier for each other. Happy divorce really is possible, even if rare. My husband and I are dear friends and he's here in the family home, happily talking with me several times a week.

I'll say for the sex - I'm so happy that my husband is now (happily monogamously) married to someone who can give him his preferred sex life that I never could. Limping along with no sexual attraction just to preserve "the family" is no way to live. What we have now is not a fractured family, but an expanded family. If you look at divorce that way, it can be a positive change all around.
 
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FWIW, my husband and I have remained close friends, post-separation. We are not divorced yet, but this should be final within about four months.

It's true, our children are grown, though one is still studying and lives here with me in what was the "family home". My (soon to be ex) husband and I still own this home together, though we're working on him buying me out.

His - ex's (I'll call him Red) - main concern when we officially separated, was that his relationship with our children not be affected negatively. It hasn't been, and I doubt it will. Red and I were good friends throughout our marriage, rarely fought, and share an off the wall sense of humour, similar tastes, and a similar sense of fair play. I think this has helped tremendously.
 
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