Disclosing new open, serious relationship in existing relationships

DaisyBook

New member
Hi all, I'm new here, but I've been reading a bunch. I (44, F) am in a new long distance open relationship with a man I'll call Jack (44, M). We met about four months ago in my town when he was visiting, and it became clear to both of us quickly that this could be a significant relationship. We are in touch daily about everything including dating (he's got that compersion thing down; I'm struggling with some jealousy but working on it) and we visit monthly. We are open because of the distance and also because we're both recently out of long-term marriages and we don't want to limit ourselves right now. We are hoping he will move to my town in another year or so, and we might be non-monogamous then but we'll figure that out down the road. We were both involved with other people when we met, but nothing serious. With new people, we disclose our open relationship early in interactions (we've both done this).

My question is about the existing relationships. Before I knew Jack, I started seeing "Max," who I now see about once a week for a date and sex. We have discussed that we don't really see long term monogamous potential for us (I think that's something he wants for himself eventually) and we are explicitly non-exclusive. Max is aware that there's a "guy out of town" I've been dating, but he doesn't know much more than that; I know he's also dating. Because of the timing of our dates, Max hasn't been aware when I've left town to visit Jack, and I haven't called attention to it. Max and I are very affectionate and romantic when we are together but we aren't in contact very often between dates.

Jack has had an FWB situation with "Kate" since a month or so before he met me (that's his description of it). They see each other every other week or so, usually dinner and sex but sometimes it's a longer date. They had a very short "friends with benefits" conversation early on and they don't generally discuss other people they may or may not be dating; he's thought they had an informal DADT situation. They are in touch pretty frequently, however, texting regularly throughout the week, and my sense is that she contacts him when she's stressed and wants support, in addition to other times. It's become clear that Kate wants more with Jack. She recently asked if he wanted to eventually be long term and monogamous with her and seemed to be close to breaking things up if not. He said he didn't want more than FWB, but he also hasn't told her about me. She decided to continue seeing him and more recently again indicated interest in a more serious, longer term, likely monogamous relationship with him. The non-disclosure of our relationship makes me uncomfortable, and I'm trying to work through this.

Max isn't aware of the extent of my relationship with Jack, but Max and I are also very much on the same page about our relationship and its potential. So this is confusing.

On the one hand, I feel like I should trust Jack to manage his own relationships, especially one that existed before I knew him. On the other hand, I feel like it's disrespectful to Kate and me not to disclose. He's been acknowledged in my relationships with others while I'm invisible in his relationship with Kate. I also have empathy for Kate, as a woman who has wanted more with a man than he wanted. In Kate's situation, I would be pretty hurt and maybe embarrassed to find out about me. It's not that Jack doesn't want a long-term, serious relationship; it's that he doesn't want it with her. He does like and respect her, though. At first I thought my feelings were from jealousy, which I've struggled with, but now I think it's more than that. I'm not sure Kate would want to continue with Jack if she knew he was working towards a serious, long-term relationship with someone else, and shouldn't that be her decision?

We are talking about this situation and trying to figure out how to move forward. I'm sure he's concerned about losing that relationship, which he values. This is my first more serious non-monogamous relationship, and I'm still figuring out boundaries. I trust Jack, but I'm concerned that he's so worried about losing this relationship that he's not being as honest with Kate as he should be. Is that even my business, though? Is it reasonable to want your partner to disclose your relationship to others, even when those were already-existing relationships? Would that mean I would need to have another conversation with Max about Jack (which I'm willing to do)?
 
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Jack has had an FWB situation with "Kate" since a month or so before he met me... They had a very short "friends with benefits" conversation early on and they don't generally discuss other people they may or may not be dating; he's thought they had an informal DADT situation.

It's become clear that Kate wants more with Jack. He said he didn't want more than FWB, but he also hasn't told her about me. She decided to continue seeing him and more recently again indicated interest in a more serious, longer term, likely monogamous relationship with him. The non-disclosure of our relationship makes me uncomfortable, and I'm trying to work through this.

This is my first more serious non-monogamous relationship, and I'm still figuring out boundaries. I trust Jack, but I'm concerned that he's so worried about losing this relationship that he's not being as honest with Kate as he should be.

Is that even my business, though? Is it reasonable to want your partner to disclose your relationship to others?

Having been in a couple of more-than-superficially-similar situations myself in the past, including the first few months of my current relationship), I have to say that it IS most definitely very REASONABLE to want, even require, a significant other to disclose their relationship with you to other partners or people they're sharing sex with - especially if the agreements around the other relationship are blurry and ill-defined.

Frankly, the underlined sections concern me. :( "He's THOUGHT they had an informal DADT situation" - what exactly does this mean TO him? to her? to you?

If this not YOUR business, I'm not sure whose it is.

True, the way they choose to conduct what goes on WITHIN their relationship is THEIR business... however, it's disingenuous at best for Jack to assume Kate wouldn't be extremely upset, even humiliated, when and if she finally discovers he's been engaging in another relationship with someone he can/does envisage becoming more serious with as time goes on, KNOWING her feelings for him are growing and that she wants more.

After all, she has TOLD him in no uncertain terms what SHE wants - and even though he does NOT want the same thing, which was a clear opportunity for him to make the decision that DADT was no longer going to cut it. After all, he knows (but hasn't informed HER) that he's looking to move to your town in the medium term future.

I've been in both yours and Kate's positions at various points in my life, and both are less than ideal - frankly, both situations suck, though Kate's is potentially way suckier for obvious reasons - and while FWB and open relationships are fine in theory, I've come to understand quite clearly that UN-informed consent is NOT truly consent at all.

If you read my blog, you'll see how messy things can get when someone has a FWB situation with a friend they value and wish to keep close, and fall in love/develop another relationship with someone else at the same time... YET decide NOT to divulge the relationship to the other women concerned.

I'm not saying that Jack is acting in a deliberately shady or untrustworthy manner - perhaps he is also still trying to work out boundaries and parameters - however IME this situation is bound to end up hurting at least one party involved, if not everyone, unless he decides on a course of transparency as far as this other relationship is concerned. If that means he risks losing Kate, so be it. Sometimes... even in polyamory... there is no other option than to make a choice. And if that means you need to get into more detail with Max about the direction your relationship with Jack is heading, then that may also be necessary.
 
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So, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your partners to disclose to any other partners that you exist and are in a relationship with that partner. It's something that I definitely communicate to people I date as a firm boundary for me. But if that's how you feel, you need to state it.

As for all the stuff that he's doing with Kate and how he's treating her, I'd say that's not really your business... other than to know that if someone is treating other people in a way that makes you uncomfortable, it may influence how involved you want to be with someone who isn't open. Or it may mean you need to institute a boundary about how much info he's sharing with you about his other relationships. But ultimately, if he does something that she is unhappy about, that is between them. You might have feelings about the ethics of what transpires, but it's not really on you to do anything about it for either of them.
 
Hello DaisyBook,

I am thinking that Jack needs to ask Kate, "Do we have a DADT arrangement?" If the answer is yes, then I guess he doesn't have to tell her about you, or at least it's enough of a gray area that you don't need to worry about it. But as it stands, he doesn't know that the answer is yes, and he needs to find out. Tell him this. As long as the answer is unknown, it is your business because you don't want to be involved with a dishonest person. I don't think he is dishonest, but he has let himself get a little complacent, and that concerns you.

Hopefully the problem can be worked out with a minimal amount of fuss.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I have to say that it IS most definitely very REASONABLE to want, even require, a significant other to disclose their relationship with you to other partners or people they're sharing sex with - especially if the agreements around the other relationship are blurry and ill-defined.
Thanks for this. This felt like a reasonable boundary, and it's good to hear this.

...however, it's disingenuous at best for Jack to assume Kate wouldn't be extremely upset, even humiliated, when and if she finally discovers he's been engaging in another relationship with someone he can/does envisage becoming more serious with as time goes on, KNOWING her feelings for him are growing and that she wants more.
Yes, this has been my concern as well. You articulated it well.

I'm not saying that Jack is acting in a deliberately shady or untrustworthy manner - perhaps he is also still trying to work out boundaries and parameters - however IME this situation is bound to end up hurting at least one party involved, if not everyone, unless he decides on a course of transparency as far as this other relationship is concerned.
Yes, I agree that he's not trying to be deliberately shady at all. I do trust him. This is new for both of us, and I think this is part of what's been confusing. These aren't really conversations we've had before so it's not always clear how to approach this ethically.

I think the bigger question for me is to wonder what this says about him as a partner for me. I'm hoping he works through this, but ultimately all I can do is set a boundary for myself and communicate that.
 
So, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your partners to disclose to any other partners that you exist and are in a relationship with that partner. It's something that I definitely communicate to people I date as a firm boundary for me. But if that's how you feel, you need to state it.

As for all the stuff that he's doing with Kate and how he's treating her, I'd say that's not really your business... other than to know that if someone is treating other people in a way that makes you uncomfortable, it may influence how involved you want to be with someone who isn't open. Or it may mean you need to institute a boundary about how much info he's sharing with you about his other relationships. But ultimately, if he does something that she is unhappy about, that is between them. You might have feelings about the ethics of what transpires, but it's not really on you to do anything about it for either of them.

Right, this is the distinction I've been trying to get at: the difference between my boundaries and what happens in their relationship. It's only been in the past few days that I've realized this disclosure is a boundary for me. I did tell Jack that, but we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet (and he hasn't seen Kate so it's not an immediate issue). I appreciate you helping me think through this.

So, is this a dealbreaker for you? In my situation, would you end the relationship if your partner didn't disclose your developing relationship to other partners?
 
I am thinking that Jack needs to ask Kate, "Do we have a DADT arrangement?"

This seems like a good approach. They are both generally aware that the other is dating other people, but she is likely assuming that he's involved in other FWB situations and nothing more serious. I'm uncomfortable, for example, that I know about her but she hasn't really consented to having information about their relationship shared with me. He and I have firm boundaries about what we share with others about our relationship.

As long as the answer is unknown, it is your business because you don't want to be involved with a dishonest person. I don't think he is dishonest, but he has let himself get a little complacent, and that concerns you.
Yes, this is a great way of putting it. He wouldn't care if she became involved in something more serious, but it's not fair to assume she feels the same.
 
So, is this a dealbreaker for you? In my situation, would you end the relationship if your partner didn't disclose your developing relationship to other partners?

This would not be a deal breaker for me, but I would be WELL AWARE that this partner is really good at compartmentalizing - which means that he would be very good at keeping things from me, as well, and I would never know it. I would have constant ibbling, inexplicable concerns. If your partner is coloring the truth to keep the peace with her, he is most assuredly doing the same with you. I'm not dismissing him as a "liar," but as someone for whom control is a go-to relationship management tool. And in my experience, people who opt for control (in this case, secrecy and coloring the truth) to this extent - well, it's rough going for them and for all who are close to them. There is surely much more going on with your partner than this one issue of him fudging the truth with her. That's why I would have my antenna up, not for "ethical" reasons. I'm a practical polyamorist.
 
So, is this a dealbreaker for you? In my situation, would you end the relationship if your partner didn't disclose your developing relationship to other partners?


For me the level of disclosure would depend on the type of relationship that I had with the person. If that person was just a FWB type person, I wouldn't really be concerned if they didn't disclose much of anything to others about me other than the bare minimum of them disclosing that they weren't monogamous with anyone else and that they were actually having sex with someone else (so basic disclosure for safer sex practices).

If the person was a more serious partner though and we considered this to be an important relationship, then absolutely I think I would have a boundary around them disclosing that they actually have a partner. They don't have to tell other people all about me and go into detail, and of course if they were having a more casual hook up I'd say that they're going to probably not spend a ton of time talking about the nature of their other relationships, but I would expect that anyone they're going to be seeing repetitively in some fashion, they're going to at least say "I have a girlfriend/partner/etc." This is just MY personal boundary though and I don't think this is the way things have to be done. But to me, I don't want to feel like someone that my partner has to hide from people. I'm not interested in being someone's secret from other partners (distinguishing this from being a secret in the sense that many people aren't out to family, friends, coworkers, etc about poly).
 
For me the level of disclosure would depend on the type of relationship that I had with the person. If that person was just a FWB type person, I wouldn't really be concerned if they didn't disclose much of anything to others about me other than the bare minimum of them disclosing that they weren't monogamous with anyone else and that they were actually having sex with someone else (so basic disclosure for safer sex practices).

If the person was a more serious partner though and we considered this to be an important relationship, then absolutely I think I would have a boundary around them disclosing that they actually have a partner. They don't have to tell other people all about me and go into detail, and of course if they were having a more casual hook up I'd say that they're going to probably not spend a ton of time talking about the nature of their other relationships, but I would expect that anyone they're going to be seeing repetitively in some fashion, they're going to at least say "I have a girlfriend/partner/etc." This is just MY personal boundary though and I don't think this is the way things have to be done.
Well, I think he has thought it was pretty clearly FWB, and it's only recently that she's made it clear she's interested in more. And his relationship with me has been developing at the same time, but we're also long distance. It's been confusing to me to figure this all out since the openness and long distance and the relationship are all new. Though we did start using the words "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" pretty quickly.

But to me, I don't want to feel like someone that my partner has to hide from people. I'm not interested in being someone's secret from other partners (distinguishing this from being a secret in the sense that many people aren't out to family, friends, coworkers, etc about poly).
Yes, this is what's really uncomfortable for me.
 
This would not be a deal breaker for me, but I would be WELL AWARE that this partner is really good at compartmentalizing - which means that he would be very good at keeping things from me, as well, and I would never know it. I would have constant ibbling, inexplicable concerns. If your partner is coloring the truth to keep the peace with her, he is most assuredly doing the same with you. I'm not dismissing him as a "liar," but as someone for whom control is a go-to relationship management tool. And in my experience, people who opt for control (in this case, secrecy and coloring the truth) to this extent - well, it's rough going for them and for all who are close to them. There is surely much more going on with your partner than this one issue of him fudging the truth with her. That's why I would have my antenna up, not for "ethical" reasons. I'm a practical polyamorist.

Thanks, this is helpful. Can you explain a bit more about what you mean about control and sharing information and compartmentalizing? This touches on my concerns, especially the part about what it might mean for his relationship with me.

I trust that he really thought that they were on the same page to start with. I thought she was sending signals she wanted more, but he didn't see that at the time because he was generally aware that she was also seeing at least one other person. I think he was perhaps being more naive than anything.

Here's one example, though, that made me a bit uncomfortable, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts: for the past few months, he's been working a lot because of some big projects with deadlines and he's had some incredibly long days and been at work on his usual days off. Last month I visited for a long weekend, though, and we spent the whole time together. I think Kate texted him a few times while I was there and he didn't respond (it would have been fine with me if he had taken a few minutes to respond to her as long as he let me know he needed to do that, but that's a different issue).

After I left, and he mentioned that he did get back in touch with her, I asked, "Did you tell her you had been busy at work?" And he said that's what he had told her. This seemed to me like coloring the truth or offering a false reassurance. He has definitely been busy at work so it wasn't exactly a lie, but that weekend he didn't respond because he was with me. I don't think she directly asked why he didn't respond, either; he volunteered the information.

On the one hand, would it be better if I just didn't know this? Maybe. And he's being honest with me, it seems. On the other hand, I do think this gives me information about him. If he's offering her false reassurance, is he doing the same with me? Are people essentially the same in different relationships?
 
Are people essentially the same in different relationships?

No, we are not the same in different relationships because a relationship is always the alchemy of two distinct people, but we certainly use many of the same relationship management tools across our relationships. Just because he is lying her to (and he is) doesn't mean that he is lying to you - just as we might lie to our parents, but be much more honest with our BFFs. What's important is not to walk around suspicious of him or even to dismiss him, but to have an awareness that he is indeed attempting to control his loved ones (or his fuck buddies or whatever label he uses) and attempts at emotional control always lead to upsetting, emotionally conflicted situations. What I mean by control is that he does not have confidence in honesty and he is not coming from a place of internal security. People who are generally secure in themselves do not try to manipulate situations or other people - and that is essentially what your BF is doing. They can allow others to be who they are, they can be honest about who they are and what they want, they do not have to "manage" people with constant little white lies. It's important that you observe this, the way he "manages" her because although he may not be lying to you to the same extent, he is indeed not a person who operates from a secure base of honesty and well being. You're going to feel the repercussions of that. You're not going to feel that your relationship with him is secure because he is not secure. This is why I would have reservations about being involved with someone who is cheating in any way - not because it is "unethical," but because it indicates a level of emotional uneasiness in a person that I inevitably would be dealing with, as well - even if I'm not being directly lied to. It's just not an emotionally secure place, to be involved with someone who is cheating - or fudging the truth with your metamor or however we are labeling this.
 
I second what Karen has said. When I am in a relationship, I'm present with my partner, but there is always a small, detached part of me that simply observes and takes notes. How does this person interact with other people? Do they walk through the world with self-confidence and integrity, are they are a people-pleaser, are they afraid of truth-telling because they fear they might cause hurt? The observer doesn't judge, merely gathers information. When I go over those notes later, I look for patterns of behavior.

Those patterns may be unique to one person or set of circumstances (code-switching). For instance, I am assertive with most people in most situations. I observe traits in my sister indicating an undiagnosed personality disorder. She can be volatile, so I am much more cautious when interacting with her than I would be with a close friend. However, though I may soften my speech and my tone with her, I do not compromise my values. Even if she asks, I don't violate my own boundaries to appease her. Our interactions are unique to our relationship, but I am the same person at my core.

This is what I would watch for. Is this person comfortable with small lies in most areas of his life? Then it is a given that he will be comfortable with small lies in his interactions with you. I would not be comfortable with this situation, but I am not in your relationship. What traits do you value in someone else? What traits are anathema to you?

I recently ended an important relationship because my partner lied to me, AFTER many conversations in which I communicated my values and was assured that truth-telling would be a given. Have the two of you had conversations about what you value in relationships?
 
This is what I would watch for. Is this person comfortable with small lies in most areas of his life? Then it is a given that he will be comfortable with small lies in his interactions with you. I would not be comfortable with this situation, but I am not in your relationship. What traits do you value in someone else? What traits are anathema to you?

I recently ended an important relationship because my partner lied to me, AFTER many conversations in which I communicated my values and was assured that truth-telling would be a given. Have the two of you had conversations about what you value in relationships?

I think this is some of what's been confusing to me: we had a conversation early on about lies of omission and how we both dislike them. And I think that's what's happening in his relationship with Kate: he's clear that he doesn't want to be exclusive or escalate with her, but he's also neglecting to tell her that, since he's started seeing her, he's begun a relationship that is escalating. That seems relevant to me.

In terms of what we value: yes, I agree this is important. Thank you for expressing it this way. We need to make some time to have this conversation.
 
What I mean by control is that he does not have confidence in honesty and he is not coming from a place of internal security. People who are generally secure in themselves do not try to manipulate situations or other people - and that is essentially what your BF is doing. They can allow others to be who they are, they can be honest about who they are and what they want, they do not have to "manage" people with constant little white lies. It's important that you observe this, the way he "manages" her because although he may not be lying to you to the same extent, he is indeed not a person who operates from a secure base of honesty and well being. You're going to feel the repercussions of that. You're not going to feel that your relationship with him is secure because he is not secure. This is why I would have reservations about being involved with someone who is cheating in any way - not because it is "unethical," but because it indicates a level of emotional uneasiness in a person that I inevitably would be dealing with, as well - even if I'm not being directly lied to. It's just not an emotionally secure place, to be involved with someone who is cheating - or fudging the truth with your metamor or however we are labeling this.

At times I've been uncomfortable with this situation with her, and I think I was being too hard on myself and assuming it was jealousy, because I've struggled with that a little bit. And I was worried that I wanted him to tell her about me because secretly I wanted that relationship to end; I was questioning my own motives. But, I'm realizing that what I've been feeling has been some emotional insecurity, not because I think he's going to leave me for her, but because I'm concerned his lack of directness and honesty with her might have implications for his relationship with me.

I've been giving him some space to think about this because his relationship with her existed when I started seeing him and we have gotten more serious than we expected more quickly than we expected. At first, I think we thought we would be long distance FWBs, maybe intense FWBs, but that the distance wouldn't allow for much more. In that case, disclosure to others seemed a bit different. But now that we want to build something longer term, asking him to disclose that to others seems like a fair boundary for me.
 
At times I've been uncomfortable with this situation with her, and I think I was being too hard on myself and assuming it was jealousy, because I've struggled with that a little bit..
My experience is that jealousy is much more apt to proliferate in situations that are already emotionally tenuous. Jealousy thrives in uncertainty and dishonesty. Jealousy should not always be dismissed and overcome because very often it is a powerful indicator that something is just not right and you can't put your finger on it. Barring any kind of ongoing mental issues, jealousy is always to be taken seriously as a helpful indicator (again, in my experience.)


But now that we want to build something longer term, asking him to disclose that to others seems like a fair boundary for me.
The observer in me would note that if i even have to ask a partner to be truthful, much less create a boundary around it for myself, something is already off kilter. Do I want to keep building with a partner who is not naturally honest?
 
This really deserves to be a pair of FAQ answers --
jealousy is much more apt to proliferate in situations that are already emotionally tenuous. Jealousy thrives in uncertainty and dishonesty.

Jealousy should not always be dismissed and overcome, because very often it is a powerful indicator that something is just not right and you can't put your finger on it. Barring any kind of ongoing mental issues, jealousy is always to be taken seriously as a helpful indicator
 
My experience is that jealousy is much more apt to proliferate in situations that are already emotionally tenuous. Jealousy thrives in uncertainty and dishonesty. Jealousy should not always be dismissed and overcome because very often it is a powerful indicator that something is just not right and you can't put your finger on it. Barring any kind of ongoing mental issues, jealousy is always to be taken seriously as a helpful indicator (again, in my experience.)

Yes, I think you're right. I think I was interpreting my emotions as jealousy when there was more going on. I'm new to non-monogamy and this is a new relationship, so it's been hard to sort it all out. So much of what I've been reading about non-monogamy is in the context of opening up an existing relationship where there's already a foundation. Because of the distance, building that foundation is complicated, even if we were monogamous (which is not what either of us wants right now).


The observer in me would note that if i even have to ask a partner to be truthful, much less create a boundary around it for myself, something is already off kilter. Do I want to keep building with a partner who is not naturally honest?

This is another great insight. I struggled with this at first, with Max. He and I had conversations about not being exclusive, but we never talked at great length about what that meant. I re-initiated the conversation after we had been seeing each other for a little while, to make sure were were on the same page. But it's confusing when you're back on the dating scene after the end of a long-term, monogamous relationship, which is the case for all four people I'm talking about here.

But, yes, I agree with this completely in terms of Jack. I think he's felt like he was being honest with Kate because he was clear about what he wants with her. I've been nudging him to realize that that might not be enough given how our relationship has developed since he's begun seeing her.
 
What's easiest for him...

Reading this whole thread, I see a huge amount of "I think he thinks she thinks..." and general fuzziness.

I recognize this. His behavior reminds me of, well, me from less illustrious moments in my past. He's doing what is easiest for him. It's just easier to not deal directly, to hedge, to manage everyone, and maintain a fuzzy status quo.

Someone else said it above, "if he's managing her, he's managing you."
 
I recognize this. His behavior reminds me of, well, me from less illustrious moments in my past. He's doing what is easiest for him. It's just easier to not deal directly, to hedge, to manage everyone, and maintain a fuzzy status quo.

Someone else said it above, "if he's managing her, he's managing you."

Thanks for sharing this. What happened to change your behavior? Was this when you were new to non-monogamy?
 
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