Broad brushes

GroundedSpirit

New member
Hi everyone,

Reading through some of the various threads here (and elsewhere) I've noticed a trend of folks to want to draw a pretty distinct line between "swinging" and "polyamory" - however those get defined. In general, it seems we want to paint the "swingers" with the brush of "meaningless, risky sex participants" and poly being almost exclusively focused on the "love" aspect (although the sex is often a part too).

Broad brushes you think ?

One of the important points we often see raised is that the "meaningless sex" part is often (not always?) raised in the demeaning and dangerous way it affects the ladies. The same of course could be said about the men in many situations.
But reading this, and just thinking it through made me wonder about the implications of drawing such black & white conclusions.
Having browsed a number of the so called "swinger" sites over the years and spoken with quite a large number of the participants (if chatting & email can be considered "speaking"), one thing we noticed in a fairly large number of these participants is their expression of wanting MORE than just sex. Most of it's expressed in terms of "friendship", i.e spending quality non-sexual time together etc.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...... what do we have here ???
Now I'm not supposing that very many of these folks are prepared, or even desire, to attempt the path of polyamory - by it's loftiest ideals. As a matter of fact it's a possibility that not many of them are even familiar with the concept & practice.
However...............

Their expression of desiring "more" (than sex) - what does that mean ? So to me it raises a couple questions........

1> Should we be looking at "swinging" etc as a "gateway drug" to something bigger ?

2> Should we maybe be reacting in a kinder & more loving fashion to these folk realizing that they may be feeling/experiencing their desire and curiosity for reaching out for something "more" - maybe in the only way they know how ?

What do you folks think ??
 
2> Should we maybe be reacting in a kinder & more loving fashion to these folk realizing that they may be feeling/experiencing their desire and curiosity for reaching out for something "more" - maybe in the only way they know how ?


Kind of like when Ceoli was reaching out for something more when she was curious enough to ask for your proof and you chastised her? :cool:
 
I tend to see swinging and polyamory as two ends of a spectrum where most non-monogamous people fit somewhere between the extremes.
 
GroundedSpirit:

You are in no position to question or chastise us as individuals within a community for whatever opinions or positions we may choose to adopt, as you continue to choose to ignore the fact that you have treated members of this community disrespectfully and dismissively.

Admit your error and rectify it. Own what is yours. It's the evolved thing to do.

BESIDES, who would want to engage in a discussion with you on any topic, once they've seen the blatant disrespect you heaped on Ceoli and the other members of the community, in the "sexual element" thread. http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1174 You are not behaving in a way that encourages intelligent, thoughtful discussion and debate, and thus you do not deserve to share in our exchange of ideas.

(My name is Fidelia, and I am fully accountable for this message. No Justice, no peace.)
 
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Hmmmmm

Siggghhhhhhhhhhh

Hopefully it's not to late............

Have to address this to Fidelia primarily even though I try to keep personal responses off the public area to avoid clutter and having the original topic diverge in some other direction.
If it makes you (or anyone else) feel better, we'll later post some FINAL attempt at clarification of that original topic you are so upset about. I say final because the thread ended up deteriorating exactly as I projected it would if that kind of thing didn't stop. It's a moot point now.

However..............
Your behavior here in using a public forum for personal attacks is unacceptable. There are easy ways to launch those attacks if that's what you feel the need to do and we're happy to talk, discuss, debate etc in private. It's however extremely detrimental to the board followers and it usually will result in you being banned if the Admin or Moderators are on their toes.
As comical as all this drama is to many it really does detract from the purpose of the board.

Enough already ! The door is open for your personal vendetta. Let's see if there's any chance of keeping this thread "on topic". If the users have points of disagreement or don't feel they can weigh in, then they won't. Otherwise, give them the chance without having to endure a cheap soap opera. (Yea, that will probably piss someone off too - oh well)

GS
 
Yea

I tend to see swinging and polyamory as two ends of a spectrum where most non-monogamous people fit somewhere between the extremes.

Yea, that's kind of been our observation/experience too. Practicing "polyamory" in it's purest, theoretical form requires much more time & energy than probably most people have available. But I guess our hope would be that the choice of reaching out to others in whatever capacity anyone is capable of, would bring benefits to many in the quality & variability of their relationships. Increasing happiness and minimizing pain & drama would seem to be a primary goal ?

GS
 
I say final because the thread ended up deteriorating exactly as I projected it would if that kind of thing didn't stop. It's a moot point now.

Do you still not recognize and own YOUR role in the deteriorating of that thread? Here's the thing. When people aren't accountable, they quickly become irrelevant. You offended people. "Clarifications" as you put it do not rectify that situation. Either you own it or you don't. Clearly you still don't seem to think anyone had any reason to be offended or just didn't understand what you "really" meant, so that says you're not willing to own it or be accountable.

Your behavior here in using a public forum for personal attacks is unacceptable. There are easy ways to launch those attacks if that's what you feel the need to do and we're happy to talk, discuss, debate etc in private. It's however extremely detrimental to the board followers and it usually will result in you being banned if the Admin or Moderators are on their toes.

I think lack of accountability is more detrimental to the forums.

Perhaps a thread should be started about your lack of accountability? Would that satisfy your need to box away this conversation?

It also seems you've self-appointed yourself as the moderator of any thread you start. The purpose of these boards is to have free and open discussion of things. Sometimes it necessitates going off topic in order for the discussion of the topic to be more authentic. For example, examining the validity of a premise that is being used as the basis for a discussion on a thread (as you simply refused to do on the other thread in question).

So again, I ask. How about a little humility and respect for the people who have contributed to this forum for a while? Is that honestly too hard for you to do?
 
It's however extremely detrimental to the board followers and it usually will result in you being banned if the Admin or Moderators are on their toes.

The mods are paying attention, thank you (though I am not hanging on every word in every thread in which you're participating). I have yet to see anything cross the line to where I will take action. The mods do not exist to quell disagreement and conflict--we're here to make certain the discussion remains reasonable.

I find the passive-aggressive threatening of another member with supposed impending moderator action to be amusing. You don't speak for the moderation crew, so please refrain from attempting to do so.

I see folks calling you on your behavior. I don't see ad hominem attacks launched at you. As long as the criticism stays focused on your behavior and not your person, it's acceptable on the board--because dissension is allowed as a normal part of reasonable discussion and debate.

It is up to you to take responsibility for your behavior and to settle differences with those you have a conflict with. It is not for the moderation crew to step in and save you. We'll deal with posts and posters who step over the line--we won't censor anybody simply because of conflict playing out on the boards.
 
I'll write more later, but what I need to say now is:

GroundedSpirit, I have no personal vendetta against you.
I have a vendetta against disrespect and lack of accountability.
 
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The mods are paying attention, thank you (though I am not hanging on every word in every thread in which you're participating). I have yet to see anything cross the line to where I will take action. The mods do not exist to quell disagreement and conflict--we're here to make certain the discussion remains reasonable.

I find the passive-aggressive threatening of another member with supposed impending moderator action to be amusing. You don't speak for the moderation crew, so please refrain from attempting to do so.

I see folks calling you on your behavior. I don't see ad hominem attacks launched at you. As long as the criticism stays focused on your behavior and not your person, it's acceptable on the board--because dissension is allowed as a normal part of reasonable discussion and debate.

It is up to you to take responsibility for your behavior and to settle differences with those you have a conflict with. It is not for the moderation crew to step in and save you. We'll deal with posts and posters who step over the line--we won't censor anybody simply because of conflict playing out on the boards.

I second Illusion-this is why I like this board. :)
 
I agree that Groundspirit has some explaining to do and some apologizing, but he/she will do that if they want to. Sometimes when people fuck up on a thread and don't think they have they are surprised when they are called to task. That doesn't mean that it is okay to let things slide, but I for one have learned from all this that perhaps I should take what people say with a grain of salt before jumping down their throats. Sometimes my passionate response to someone on these forums is not appropriate and I should find a place inside of me to patiently ask questions and inquire before deciding that I have the right to be defensive and demand answers.

Sometimes people just don't want to engage in the kind of inquisition that I demand and just want to stay on the path that they have chosen regardless of my feelings. That is fine, from here on in I chose not to engage them in any communication if they are unwilling to be respectful and honorable to our members and apologize. I just will stop writing on their threads and not engage them at all. I will start my own threads on the topics I find interesting and flat out ignore them... life is too short to be bothered with those that are not willing to do the work necessary to be a positive, loving influence in my life.

Groundspirit, I hope that my PM's have been helpful and you take to heart the words that I have said as I have said them out of kindness and concern. Please know that I for one am willing to engage in conversations with you on this forum as you have apologized to me in private... I do feel as if my mind can now be open to discussing what YOU want to discuss because I know something about you both and have some context. I am fearful that your approach to topics is too abrupt and needs to keep peoples feelings in check but I see in this thread that you have made an attempt to do that.

I would love to continue this conversation about "swinging" as I have things to say, but I too am waiting to know that Ceoli has and all of us have been apologized to with meaning. You were quick to judge and quick to silence and that was unfair. Here is MY final offer to give you space and hopefully safety to say you are ready to move on and are sorry for hurting our feelings.
 
GroundedSpirit:

I am going to make this very simple and straightforward. Your behavior on “the sexual element” thread has offended many members of this community. Whether the offense was intentional or inadvertent, only you can know. But surely you must realize by now that you crossed the line. Your choice to pretend there is no offense merely compounds it. Ignoring a problem doesn’t make it go away. In fact the opposite is true, as you perhaps are becoming aware.

I am doing nothing more, and nothing less, than calling you on your disrespectful and unacceptable behavior. I would do the same with any other member who showed the same level of blatant disrespect, and I hope that should the time come when I am the offender, someone will call me on it so that I can make things right.

The problem as it currently stands is that you persist in refusing to accept accountability for your actions and to take any action whatsoever to rectify the problem you created. You still owe an apology to Ceoli and all the other members of the community whom you have offended. And until that debt is paid, I and hopefully other well-intentioned members of the community, will continue calling you out on it, and making other members aware that you cannot be trusted to behave decently. Because to do otherwise ensures the offense will occur again and encourages similar bad behavior.

It would be so simple to just admit your mistake, apologize, and move forward.
 
Just to be clear: My feelings are not hurt because they can only really be hurt by people for whom what they think matters to me. However, I do and will continue to ask for accountability for any sort of harmful assumptions that are made about my identity or the identity of other marginalized groups to which I am connected and don't accept the idea that such demands should be silenced.

I'm not the kind of person who holds grudges and I can easily move on. But this isn't about a grudge. It's about making sure that communication can happen from an authentic honest place. Groundedspirit claims to want this type of communication but frankly it can't happen without those basic issues of accountability and respect being resolved. I've yet to see either of those things from GS in the PM's and messages that were sent to me. I'm quite sure there are lots of good ideas to be exchanged and hope that there will be a chance to exchange such ideas. I look forward to knowing more of your stories too. But again, that can only happen if the lines of communication that you have broken get fixed.
 
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