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  #11  
Old 06-23-2018, 04:13 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Thank you for more info. English not being her first language and that you married a foreigner. You might have to use simpler words, but I still think you two have to talk.

If your wife is a narcissist, that's a whole other kind of problem. Is that your impression? Has she been diagnosed?

Quote:
My wife has admitted that these relationships have become somewhat sexual, but says she hasn't had intercourse with them. She claims she would like me to have a 'good friend' like she does, so I told her about a friend that I have, which is remote (not physical).
Would you call that her cheating on the marriage agreements? What ARE the current marriage agreements?

The whole "special friend" thing sounds Open relationship to me. That's not strict monogamy to me.

You have to talk to find out if she's only wanting to share physical things (kissing, hugging, sex, etc) or she wants to share love. You also have to ask if she sees this for both of you truly -- this ability to have a "special friend." Or if she's just saying it to ameliorate her guilt about her having hers but not really expecting you to take her up on it? Is that why she got upset when you revealed you have a special-ish friend too?
Quote:
She claims she would like me to have a 'good friend' like she does,
I wouldn't go leaping into anything, but I assume she doesn't say things without meaning them. If she DOES... that's another problem and the way to solve that is to talk and figure it out.

Quote:
My concern is that my wife is putting boundaries on her relationships with the other guys because she feels it’s wrong to be polyamorous, she feels like they can’t be equal with me and she also feels jealousy or implied criticism if I have someone else as a ‘special friend’.
That's kinda her problem, not yours. If you want to have the ability to have a "special friend" -- she's already said you could.

If she feels jealousy and whatnot... well, those are her emotions to manage.

I'm not saying to be heartless or cold. Or start dating other people willy nilly without updating the current marriage agreements or talking about HOW you two want to practice Open.

I'm saying that YOU don't have to "premanage" her feelings for her. (Is this part of the naricissism thing? You tip toe so she doesn't blow up?)

Quote:
I want her to understand the concepts of polyamory an ideally come to the conclusion herself that it’s preferable to trying to maintain a kind of 2-speed relationship model where the main relationship is considered monogamous!
Or she's totally fine with that, doesn't want to understand the concepts or come to any conclusion you wish she would come to.

If your main need is to stop the double standard? Either way I think you have to talk to her.
  • Either you both are Closed, and all "special friends" stop.
  • Or you talk about actually being in an Open marriage properly and what that entails.

Either way stops the double standard.


You have several layers going on there. If you were to list the problems in order of importance, what would you list? I'm not sure about the order but so far I'm seeing these sorts of things emerging as you write.

HER:
  • English not first language
  • narcissistic / does not take feedback well
  • might be cheating on current marriage agreements
  • doesn't mean what she says

YOU:
  • Not willing to speak directly
  • not happy about "double standard"
  • might be "pre-managing" her / walking on eggshells

If there's bigger problems to solve first, you might shelve this whole "special friend" thing for later.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 06-23-2018 at 04:24 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-23-2018, 09:26 PM
mj7877 mj7877 is offline
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First, thanks for the detailed reply and the thought you've put in. It's much appreciated!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Would you call that her cheating on the marriage agreements? What ARE the current marriage agreements?

The whole "special friend" thing sounds Open relationship to me. That's not strict monogamy to me.
She's always been quite honest about the relationships with the other guys, but the sexual aspect I knew after the fact, not before. From my perspective i encouraged her to maintain the friendship, meeting him (call him R) while i was away on business. He even stayed at our house while i was gone. I would have been naive to think NOTHING happened, but I was happy if she was happy. I've always given her permission to have male friends and have 'dates', but the sexual aspect hasn't been discussed. You should also know that I have had 'dates' over the years too, though significantly less and nothing remotely sexual until S

Quote:
You have to talk to find out if she's only wanting to share physical things (kissing, hugging, sex, etc) or she wants to share love. You also have to ask if she sees this for both of you truly -- this ability to have a "special friend." Or if she's just saying it to ameliorate her guilt about her having hers but not really expecting you to take her up on it? Is that why she got upset when you revealed you have a special-ish friend too?
I think you nailed it there, i.e. i think she didn't really expect me to take her up on it, even though she always says that she would be ok with it. She also drops it into conversation with friends, that I have a 'special' friend, which i find slightly inappropriate. Also, I had not really considered the physical-only aspect. I don't think that's what she wants and it's definitely not what R & T want.

Quote:
I'm saying that YOU don't have to "premanage" her feelings for her. (Is this part of the naricissism thing? You tip toe so she doesn't blow up?)
Yes, again, very perceptive, I do tend to walk on eggshells!
She's definitely not fine with it, as i can read her feelings of guilt, but as you say, I think i really do need to talk to her about what she wants from them (R & T) and what she expects from me? When she was talking with me about any friends i might have she did say she would want a OVP (if I got the terminology right?). Anyway, I feel she's not being completely honest about her feelings there and she would get upset if I told her I was having oral with someone else!
However...
Quote:
If your main need is to stop the double standard?
I don't think I'm so worried about the double standard as the whole concept of OPP/OVP. I just don't think it's practical - either you allow sexual relationships or you don't! If you don't then personally, my boundary would be anything more than a hug and a peck on the lips; if you do allow, then anything goes (that you would allow with the main partner)

Quote:
You have several layers going on there. If you were to list the problems in order of importance, what would you list? I'm not sure about the order but so far I'm seeing these sorts of things emerging as you write.
I think the main thing for me to get past is to be able to talk completely freely with her, not 'pre-managing' as you said.
Secondly, I want her to decide if she wants to have an Open marriage or not (and that I don't think an OPP/OVP is practical) and thirdly to realize that if she does, then it cuts both ways.

If I can achieve the first one, then the others should be simple!

There's more I could say here, but I don't want to write a novel! 2-3 hours on a psychologists chair might be a start!

Once again, thanks for your thoughts on this!

Thought I'd try and explain the dynamic, like other posters do:
P, Male, 50's (me)
F, female, 40's (wife of P for 16 years, LDR last 3 years)
R, Male, 40's (ex-BF of F, FWB of F, LDR)
T, Male, 60's (new BF of F, 2 years, LDR)
S, Female, 20's (new interest of P, LDR, 1 year)
All relationships known by all, except extent of sexual nature
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  #13  
Old 06-24-2018, 01:36 PM
MsEmotional MsEmotional is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj7877 View Post
Thought I'd try and explain the dynamic, like other posters do:
P, Male, 50's (me)
F, female, 40's (wife of P for 16 years, LDR last 3 years)
R, Male, 40's (ex-BF of F, FWB of F, LDR)
T, Male, 60's (new BF of F, 2 years, LDR)
S, Female, 20's (new interest of P, LDR, 1 year)
All relationships known by all, except extent of sexual nature
I just wanted to throw in something else to think about when I read the brief version of your situation at he bottom here....

Have you considered that perhaps your wife feels threatened by the younger age of your new interest? Perhaps she encouraged you to find a “special friend” when she figured it would be someone in her 40s-60s, like her own “special friends” and felt taken aback when your special friend turned out to be so much younger?

I am not saying there’s anything wrong with you dating a younger woman, but there are definitely additional feelings of envy/jealousy that come about when a metamour has desirable characteristics that we worry we lack. It may be that your wife needs some additional reassurance that you are not bored with her and looking to “trade up” for a more youthful mate. That may explain why she is getting nostalgic about old wedding photos, etc.

Just something to consider.
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Me: 34, F, Bicurious

Amours
Glasses: my husband of 9 years --> 35, M, Queer
Ponytail: my first-poly-date-turned-boyfriend --> 35, M, Pansexual
Whiskers: potential (guy I am dating) —> 42, M, Queer

Metamours and In-Laws
Ginger: Glasses's partner --> 30ish, Transgender (FTM), LDR
Curlycue: Whiskers's wife --> 40s, F
Kitchenbear: Curlycue's partner and housemate to Whiskers --> 40s, M
Rapunzel: Whiskers's girlfriend --> 40s, F
Chameleon: Rapunzel's husband --> 40s, M
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2018, 12:38 PM
mj7877 mj7877 is offline
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Default Just an update...

Still not much progress, although my wife said she would not be happy about me having sex with someone else. She thinks she is enough for me and doesn't understand why I would need anyone else.
She uses her other relationships to remind me that she has others who would be happy to be with her, if I don't.
Pretty toxic, I would say, but in general she is being nicer to me.
I've recently inherited quite a substantial amount, which I am not letting her near. I think that's a possible reason! Lol
As it's an LDR, it doesn't affect me much, except that I don't see my kids as much as I would like.
It's annoying that I can't talk to her about my relationships without her going to social media to try and embarrass me (I guess she knows I would not do the same to her!).
Still, I would say, on the whole, I've pretty much accepted that I need out of the relationship with her, but there's no hurry.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2018, 02:16 PM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Thanks for the update!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mj7877 View Post
Still not much progress, although my wife said she would not be happy about me having sex with someone else. She thinks she is enough for me and doesn't understand why I would need anyone else.
How can she be enough for you, when, 1)You're not together physically and would like to have some sex with someone, and 2) You're not enough for her?

Quote:
She uses her other relationships to remind me that she has others who would be happy to be with her, if I don't.
Fine, and you have a person (if you still do) also. Tit for tat! Well, it all sounds very petty and high school. sigh...

Quote:
Pretty toxic, I would say, but in general she is being nicer to me.
Yes, it does sound toxic. And toxic people can be nice for a while, if it suits their purposes. Just long enough for their target to relax and take a breath and let their guard down. Then the abuse starts again.
Quote:
I've recently inherited quite a substantial amount, which I am not letting her near. I think that's a possible reason! Lol
Good for you.
Quote:
As it's an LDR, it doesn't affect me much, except that I don't see my kids as much as I would like.
So do you see your wife at ALL? You've been in a LDR for 3 years. Is that going to ever change? This marriage doesn't really seem to serve much purpose, to me.

Quote:
It's annoying that I can't talk to her about my relationships without her going to social media to try and embarrass me (I guess she knows I would not do the same to her!).
Ugh, that's awful! That is abusive. What a terrible thing to endure, public humiliation when you share something privately.

BTW, you have multiple "relationships" now?

Quote:
Still, I would say, on the whole, I've pretty much accepted that I need out of the relationship with her, but there's no hurry.
Well, I'm glad to hear that.

BTW, the list of other partners, or special friends or whatever, that you listed above, can be in your signature so we can refer to it. Go to User CP and "edit signature."

Also, BTW, our Guidelines recommend we choose nicknames instead of just a letter (or "my wife") for our partners. It makes it easier for members to remember who's who. So I'd recommend something like this in your sig.

Paul, Male, 50's (me)
Fiona, female, 40's (wife of Paul for 16 years, LDR last 3 years)
Rick, Male, 40's (ex-BF of Fiona, FWB of Fiona, LDR)
Tom, Male, 60's (new BF of Fiona 2 years, LDR)
Sophie, Female, 20's (new interest of Paul, LDR, 1 year)
All relationships known by all, except extent of sexual nature

I see much confusion in the relationships. Your main relationship, your marriage, is long distance and toxic, so you are both filling in intimacy needs with others. How much nicer would it be to have respectful intimate relationships, or even one relationship for that matter, where there is respect, clarity in communication, warm feelings, equality, trust, living together, lots of sex (intercourse plus all the rest), sharing interests and hobbies, and feeling relaxed in each other's presence; instead of fearing double standards and public humiliation? How much better to have support than threats and pissiness and constant criticism?

You finally mentioned there are children in the mix. That adds a layer of complication, but it can be dealt with in the divorce agreement.

It sounds like this marriage has served its purpose and run its course. You deserve better, and I think you are just realizing that.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

Mags (poly, F, 63)
Pixi (poly, F, 41) my nesting partner since January 2009
Master, (mono, M, 37), Pixi's bf since April 2013
BigGuy (poly, M, married, 43, dating me since June 2018)
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  #16  
Old 12-09-2018, 06:41 AM
edpsy77 edpsy77 is offline
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Default Hello Newbie edpsy 77

Quote:
Originally Posted by mj7877 View Post
Still not much progress, although my wife said she would not be happy about me having sex with someone else. She thinks she is enough for me and doesn't understand why I would need anyone else.
She uses her other relationships to remind me that she has others who would be happy to be with her, if I don't.
Hi mj7877,

I am edpsy77- a newbie on this forum. I glanced this thread and I find your story fascinating. What struck me is her double standard of having boyfriends while be hesitant of you having a girlfriend. It kind of reminds me of the common sexual double standard even though I find this double standard exaggerated. I want to say something briefly about her wondering why you would "need" anyone else. I don't think you need anyone else, you want other people. A person who has a true RELATIONSHIP need is a child who is 5 years old. This child NEEDS a responsible parent.

Secondly, why does she believe that intercourse means a relationship? I am a virgin and I could practically have romances with multiple women and remain a virgin. I don't get that!
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  #17  
Old 12-09-2018, 03:10 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
She uses her other relationships to remind me that she has others who would be happy to be with her, if I don't.
Pretty toxic, I would say, but in general she is being nicer to me.
I've recently inherited quite a substantial amount, which I am not letting her near. I think that's a possible reason! Lol
Perhaps the extra money helps you to separate.

Quote:
Still, I would say, on the whole, I've pretty much accepted that I need out of the relationship with her, but there's no hurry.
I imagine it's not an easy thing to come to, but in this situation it might be for the best.

I hope you are able to take steps to do that and make appropriate arrangements for the children in the divorce. If she's this toxic, I don't imagine it is easy on them either.

Galagirl
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2018, 11:48 PM
MayDecember MayDecember is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj7877 View Post
It might Evie, but English is not her first language, so I get a bit concerned that it is a bit too complex, especially with all the terminology!

It seems there’s no real substitute for having a big discussion - which scares me because often there can be miscommunication, even after 16 years of marriage! That’s what happens when you marry a foreigner!
Incidentally, the US has sooooo much more discussion of these things! I can’t believe how conservative European and Asia are!
I am married to an Asian. I get many "experts" telling me I "can't" have a second relationship, that Asian girls are terribly jealous, blah blah blah.

We watched porn together, went to strip clubs together, nudie web chat - so it didn't come out of the blue. She paid strippers to grind all over me while she watched in order to steel herself to it. I thought it was stupid and a huge waste of money, but in retrospect she was planning this and I didn't know. If she had said "I want you to screw other girls" and that this was mental preparation for it, I would not have objected. But I did object. It's 30 games of pool for one dance for christ's sake.

Over time, I discovered the heritage of second wives in Asia. It is mostly the major/minor wife model. Regardless, it is utter rubbish, this denial of the very long history. Asians are discreet, sure. The Thais for example have no pejorative connotation on prostitution like the USA. But holding hands in public - boy that's an indiscretion. So do not mistake public modesty, that kind of conservativism, with private sexual practices.

I abhor being manipultive. I just can't do it. So I could not hide from someone what I really wanted and gradually maneuver her into it. I didn't have any idea this was going to happen and would have been fine without it. I never felt a "secret desire" I wanted to gradually come out.

So on the one hand I can see experimenting with porn or strippers or whatever to guage her reaction. But when a person is tricking someone else, not just disguising their purpose but being deceitful about it... then it's bad karma baby.
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