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  #21  
Old 08-09-2017, 01:15 AM
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Oh, before I forget: more definitions.

Polyamory Society --
Quote:
Polyamory is the nonpossessive, honest, responsible and ethical philosophy and practice of loving multiple people simultanously.
Loving More --
Quote:
Polyamory refers to romantic love with more than one person, honestly, ethically, and with the full knowledge and consent of all concerned. Polyamory often involves multiple long-term committed relationships, either separately or together, but it can also come in many different forms.
More Than Two website --
Quote:
A polyamorous person is someone who has or is open to having more than one romantic relationship at a time, with the knowledge and consent of all their partners.

A polyamorous relationship is a romantic relationship where the people in the relationship agree that itís okay for everyone to be open to or have other romantic partners.

Polyamory is the idea or practice of being polyamorous or having polyamorous relationships.
More Than Two (book) --
Quote:
having multiple loving, often committed, relationships at the same time by mutual agreement, with honesty and clarity.
Sheff again--
Quote:
a relationship style where people have more than one partner with the full knowledge and consent of all their partners.
Sheff once more --
Quote:
the practice of, or desire for, intimate relationships where individuals may have more than one partner, with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved.
Has anyone else noticed how many definitions invalidate someone? Asexuals miss the Zell definition. Solo-poly, because how can they be considered "committed"? (Another great undefined word. ) Naturally, having any number of longterm FWBs doesn't count, failing the test at committed or serious or loving or romantic. And those of us who don't have at least two "serious" "partners" right this very second fail some definitions.
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Hmm. Looking back in the thread, I found this curious note --
Quote:
Dr. Elisabeth "Eli" Sheff
(Widely respected polyamory researcher, author of "The Polyamorists Next Door" and "Stories From the Polycule".)
  • "respected" by whom?
  • vas ist das "respect"?
  • how "widely" are we talkin'?
  • am I the only one who has read neither of these books?
  • does this Authority make her definition... umm, definitive?
  • if so, which one?
Looks like another of those situations where people just blithely repeat stuff they've heard other people repeating until it becomes "true."
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  #22  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Original quote from Al - who was just making an attempt to show why her opinion might matter. (After all, she's someone other than Veaux)
Dr. Elisabeth "Eli" Sheff
(Widely respected polyamory researcher, author of "The Polyamorists Next Door" and "Stories From the Polycule".)

Ravenscroft responded
"respected" by whom? et al
Iirc, I first heard of her on Minx's Poly Weekly - who had some quite respectful things to say about her - and Minx's 500+ podcasts over 10+ years would seem to qualify her to have an educated opinion - at least in my humble newbie opinion. And I believe that I recall seeing some positive reviews on Amazon as well. I did read her "Pamphlet" - "When someone you love is polyamorous" and do intend to read at least one of her other books (in the queue). However, your post did cause me to pause and look around for perhaps a more creditable opinion. So, here is what Emory University said about her:

Quote:
Elisabeth Sheff
VISITING INSTRUCTOR
Adjunct or Visiting, Behavioral Sciences/Health Ed.


Dr. Elisabeth “Eli” Sheff is the foremost academic expert on polyamory in the US, and the worldwide expert on polyamorous families with children. Sheff’s first book, The Polyamorists Next Door: Inside Multiple-Partner Families and Relationships (2014), details her 15-year study of poly families with kids and was just reprinted in paperback, and her second book Stories from the Polycule: Real Life in Polyamorous Families (2015) is an edited anthology of writings by poly folks. An expert witness and Guardian Ad Litem with a background in academic sociology, Dr. Sheff specializes in gender and sexual minority families, kink/BDSM, and issues facing trans* people. She is the CEO and Director of Legal Services at the Sheff Consulting Group, a think-tank of experts specializing in unconventional and underserved populations. You can find her blog on Psychology Today at http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ists-next-door

Media worldwide recognize Dr. Sheff as an expert on polyamory, with interviews in US outlets like the Huffington Post, Newsweek, The Boston Globe, CNN, and National Public Radio, and international sources such as Semana magazine in Columbia, Mente e Cervello (the Italian edition of Scientific American), Elle magazine in Quebec, and the Sunday London Times. Dr. Eli has also done numerous interviews with online magazines like Momlogic.com and Seattle Met, and podcasts like The Sex Geeks, Polyamory Weekly and How Stuff Works. Her media appearances include several HuffPost live online chats, film documentaries about polyamory and BDSM, and television shows like CNN news, National Geographic’s series Taboo, and the Sunrise morning show in Sydney, Australia.

Dr. Sheff has spoken at many academic conferences like the American Psychiatric Association and the American Sociological Association, as well as conventions like Poly Living, Frolicon, and DragonCon.
https://www.sph.emory.edu/faculty/profile/#!ESHEFF

I've only read the one pamphlet, so I don't really have much of an opinion about her so far - although it does seem that there are some others who do think well of her. Al
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Last edited by Al99; 08-09-2017 at 06:20 AM.
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  #23  
Old 08-09-2017, 06:01 AM
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Maybe it's just the painkillers, but the Loving More entry is defying my logic --
Quote:
Polyamory often involves multiple long-term committed relationships, either separately or together
In all puzzled seriousness, can anyone explain that sentence to me?
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenscroft View Post
Maybe it's just the painkillers, but the Loving More entry is defying my logic --

Polyamory often involves multiple long-term committed relationships, either separately or together

In all puzzled seriousness, can anyone explain that sentence to me?
It is undoubtedly confusing. Perhaps the point that the author was attempting to make was along the lines of "poly as a V" or "poly as a triad" ? Just a thought, but really .... also confused.

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  #25  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:32 AM
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Well I'm thinking they are trying to include triads, quads and whatever more than those are called.

Never heard of Sheff. I couldn't tell you the name of any authors of poly books without looking them up. I was familiar with Cunning Minx through BDSM, but that is a hard name to forget.

The reality is the only expert on my relationships is me.

Ravenscroft, there will always be a "what about __________?" aspect to any definition. I have a romantic relationship with someone i don't have sex with and neither of us are asexual.

Maybe some things can't be clearly defined.
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  #26  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al99 View Post
Iirc, I first heard of her on Minx's Poly Weekly - who had some quite respectful things to say about her - and Minx's 500+ podcasts over 10+ years would seem to qualify her to have an educated opinion - at least in my humble newbie opinion. And I believe that I recall seeing some positive reviews on Amazon as well. I did read her "Pamphlet" - "When someone you love is polyamorous" and do intend to read at least one of her other books (in the queue). However, your post did cause me to pause and look around for perhaps a more creditable opinion. So, here is what Emory University said about her:



https://www.sph.emory.edu/faculty/profile/#!ESHEFF

I've only read the one pamphlet, so I don't really have much of an opinion about her so far - although it does seem that there are some others who do think well of her. Al
I've met her and attended some of her presentations. I also have read some of her books. She is working on a longitudinal study of poly families - it's been in progress since the 1990s. To my knowledge, she is only one doing such a study. There have been many who have done snapshots of poly folks via surveys and such. But Dr. Shef goes back every 5 to 10 years and interviews the people in her study, including the children in poly families (done in an age appropriate manner and with the parent's permission).

So, yes, she is very impressive. Go to a presentation of hers if you get the chance. Her books are well written and interesting.
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  #27  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:19 AM
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Re (from Ravenscroft):
Quote:
"And here we are, 35 years later, & nobody's seen fit to get behind ONE clear, solid, verifiable definition of polyamory. People show up here & claim some of the most outrageous crap is 'poly' & someone else quacks about how 'that's true because everybody does poly different,' & when noobs latch onto THAT & go make their own idiotic mistakes, nobody steps up & says 'maybe this nonsense ought to finally CEASE.'
And THAT is what I'd like to see."
Sounds like we need a definition that is rather exclusive. Perhaps it would include a statement on the order of, "Authentic polyamory is invariably carried out sensibly, responsibly, and free of the artifacts of Monogamism." It might also include a list of things that have no place in polyamory. I imagine the list would include some of the following.
  • If it has a poly-fi element, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it has a DADT element, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it has veto power, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it has couple privilege, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it involves unicorn hunting, then it's not polyamory.
That's all I can think of at the moment. I'm not saying I'd get behind such a definition, I'm just wondering if I have the right idea.
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenscroft View Post
Maybe it's just the painkillers, but the Loving More entry is defying my logic --
Quote:
Polyamory often involves multiple long-term committed relationships, either separately or together
In all puzzled seriousness, can anyone explain that sentence to me?
I believe that that sentence refers to all poly that's linked (the same way that I say it's based on a linked grouping) no matter how thick or thin the strand.

"Together" would be a triad, quad, or whatever that lives together in the same home.

"Separately" would be poly where one home is NOT shared so the poly situation is multiple separate groups that are linked.
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2017, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
  • If it has a poly-fi element, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it has a DADT element, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it has veto power, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it has couple privilege, then it's not polyamory.
  • If it involves unicorn hunting, then it's not polyamory.
Actually, that's a really darned good list. but, some cavils.

Iimagining a Venn diagram, I can readily see where there's polyfidelity that is highly consonant with the ideals of polyamory, & as well polyfidelity that remains trapped -- perhas happily -- within the strictures of Monogamism. IMO, it's a disservice to BOTH to act as though they're somehow identical because of superficial similarities.

And as for unicorn hunters... well, heck, gods bless 'em. I try to believe they're sincere, & good-hearted people. And maybe they WILL find "our girl" & never again even attempt to deal with the rabble of general polyamory.
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  #30  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:33 PM
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I'm surprised the unicorn hunters got off so easily. Anyway that list is a wild guess, I'm satisfied if it was at least partially right.

I'm curious as to how one might discern whether a given instance of polyfidelity is trapped within the strictures of Monogamism (regardless of whether it's happily so). Do we need another list, or can we use the existing list? Are there more items to be added to the existing list?
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